2010-11-10T00:01:16  <janzert> ok, if it was about j3camero I got with him yesterday and got the stuff I needed
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2010-11-10T00:16:14  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4254), luksian(4177), bix0r4ever(4144), george(4127), Accoun(4121), Raschi(4103), rsergio(4094), GreenTea(4093), shangas(4064), Hazard(4040)
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2010-11-10T01:16:14  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4246), luksian(4163), bix0r4ever(4134), george(4121), Raschi(4110), Accoun(4105), GreenTea(4084), rsergio(4076), shangas(4044), Hazard(4034)
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2010-11-10T01:27:26  <antimatroid1> marco
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2010-11-10T02:16:15  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4250), luksian(4170), george(4142), bix0r4ever(4135), Raschi(4118), Accoun(4105), GreenTea(4091), rsergio(4076), shangas(4054), Hazard(4030)
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2010-11-10T03:16:15  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4225), george(4114), luksian(4101), bix0r4ever(4093), Raschi(4080), GreenTea(4073), rsergio(4051), Accoun(4043), shangas(4013), dmj111(4000)
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2010-11-10T03:42:25  <d0ugal> @tcp
2010-11-10T03:42:26  <contestbot> d0ugal: tcp = (#1) http://www.benzedrine.cx/planetwars/, or (#2) http://72.44.46.68/
2010-11-10T03:48:37  <d0ugal> wtf. I keep getting EOFError exceptions :(
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2010-11-10T04:16:16  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4229), george(4114), luksian(4108), bix0r4ever(4101), Raschi(4090), GreenTea(4083), Accoun(4053), rsergio(4050), shangas(4026), flowerbot(4014)
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2010-11-10T05:16:17  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4238), george(4117), bix0r4ever(4116), GreenTea(4098), luksian(4096), Raschi(4084), Accoun(4064), shangas(4041), rsergio(4036), flowerbot(4036)
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2010-11-10T06:16:18  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4230), bix0r4ever(4114), george(4109), GreenTea(4103), luksian(4097), Raschi(4081), Accoun(4057), rsergio(4043), flowerbot(4041), shangas(4035)
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2010-11-10T06:45:40  <lavalamp__> hm, my new move generator shows some sparks of brilliance in between timeouts and hideous failures: http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=943075
2010-11-10T07:16:18  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4265), bix0r4ever(4132), luksian(4130), george(4126), Raschi(4125), GreenTea(4111), asavis(4089), Accoun(4066), Doraj8(4059), shangas(4056)
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2010-11-10T07:27:18  <Frontier> someone is scraping the web site again -.-
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2010-11-10T08:16:18  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4248), bix0r4ever(4119), luksian(4117), Raschi(4115), george(4114), GreenTea(4105), asavis(4082), Doraj8(4052), flowerbot(4041), Accoun(4038)
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2010-11-10T08:19:28  <antimatroid1> i think my might have my magical generate future states function now
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2010-11-10T08:34:07  <brx> hey guys. *scrape*
2010-11-10T08:34:12  <brx> just kidding.
2010-11-10T08:41:26  <antimatroid1> brx: did you get a response the other day from anyone?
2010-11-10T08:41:37  <antimatroid1> there were no issues
2010-11-10T08:41:56  <brx> antimatroid1: yes. someone told me the bayeselo source was patched.
2010-11-10T08:42:11  <antimatroid1> janzert did some tests the other night :)
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2010-11-10T08:45:14  <braddunbar> what version of python does the server run?
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2010-11-10T08:47:24  <Naktibalda> 2.5
2010-11-10T08:48:05  <braddunbar> thanks =)
2010-11-10T08:51:01  <brx> antimatroid1: .. what tests
2010-11-10T08:51:12  <brx> ah, I won't ask. :)
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2010-11-10T09:11:29  <bhasker> morning
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2010-11-10T09:16:19  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4249), bix0r4ever(4124), luksian(4124), george(4119), Raschi(4118), GreenTea(4102), asavis(4082), rsergio(4048), Accoun(4043), dmj111(4037)
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2010-11-10T09:20:11  <antimatroid1> bhasker: morning :)
2010-11-10T09:20:15  <antimatroid1> how's the bot coming along?
2010-11-10T09:20:29  <antimatroid1> i'm maybe a day away from having a completely new one
2010-11-10T09:20:41  <antimatroid1> although the ideas much the same, hopefully it'll be entirely bug free
2010-11-10T09:20:43  <bhasker> not much progress, i think i am done for the competition , now i am just oging to write a minmax bot for learning
2010-11-10T09:21:02  <bhasker> my current submission will probably be my last one
2010-11-10T09:21:09  <antimatroid1> ah fair enough
2010-11-10T09:21:17  <bhasker> http://ai-contest.com/profile.php?user_id=5822
2010-11-10T09:21:25  <bhasker> i think it will hang out in the top 30-40
2010-11-10T09:21:26  <bhasker> probably
2010-11-10T09:22:44  <antimatroid1> there's a few weeks left yet :P
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2010-11-10T09:23:03  <bhasker> <2weeks?
2010-11-10T09:23:19  <bhasker> isn't 23rd the submission deadline
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2010-11-10T09:23:31  <phreeza_> 27th?
2010-11-10T09:23:46  <phreeza_> yup 27th
2010-11-10T09:23:57  <phreeza_> morning all
2010-11-10T09:23:59  <phreeza_> :D
2010-11-10T09:25:18  <bhasker> i will have to rewrite my bot's core to make it amenable for a minmax kind of solution
2010-11-10T09:25:25  <bhasker> right now my game state is not maintained very cleanly
2010-11-10T09:25:33  <bhasker> and functions don't allow easy swapping of players
2010-11-10T09:25:36  <bhasker> for minmax
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2010-11-10T09:42:31  <d0ugal> So, how come when you submit a new entry to the official site, even if you seem to do very badly, you get a better rank than before
2010-11-10T09:42:38  <d0ugal> i.e. loosing all the games but coming out higher ranked
2010-11-10T09:42:56  <d0ugal> Lookin' at my friends latest submission: http://ai-contest.com/profile.php?user_id=12325
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2010-11-10T09:51:58  <bhasker> depends on whom you lose to
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2010-11-10T10:02:13  <Ice_Harley> d0ugal, he starts with previous rank, so it needs some time to fall down, if his new submission is bad
2010-11-10T10:02:33  <d0ugal> Ice_Harley: but his previous submission was at about 1700
2010-11-10T10:02:55  <Ice_Harley> if 1700 loses to 100 he will go up )
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2010-11-10T10:04:20  <Ice_Harley> he played with 700, 500 and 500
2010-11-10T10:04:34  <Ice_Harley> it's good for his rank even if he lose
2010-11-10T10:04:38  <d0ugal> Ah, I guess that makes sense
2010-11-10T10:04:52  <d0ugal> thanks
2010-11-10T10:05:00  <Ice_Harley> the question is WHY he play with so hi-ranked (for him) bots
2010-11-10T10:06:44  <d0ugal> hmm, yeah. I guess that is the question.
2010-11-10T10:06:53  <d0ugal> Are the initial games when you upload random?
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2010-11-10T10:16:25  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4245), george(4128), luksian(4127), Raschi(4122), bix0r4ever(4121), GreenTea(4107), asavis(4087), dmj111(4051), rsergio(4044), shangas(4038)
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2010-11-10T10:26:55  <antimatroid1> hmmm... i'm considering dropping minimax and modelling the other player altogether
2010-11-10T10:27:06  <bhasker> pure max solution
2010-11-10T10:27:08  <antimatroid1> what i'm having to do in order to do it properly is going to be so inefficient
2010-11-10T10:27:12  <bhasker> thats what mega1 does
2010-11-10T10:27:33  <irchs> I'm going for almost pure max
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2010-11-10T10:27:44  <janstaunton> With my next iteration
2010-11-10T10:27:53  <bhasker> i am going to do that too, probably just maximize my current moves
2010-11-10T10:27:54  <bhasker> thats about it
2010-11-10T10:27:59  <bhasker> ignoring enemy moves
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2010-11-10T10:34:54  <krokkrok> looks like the official main server crashed :(
2010-11-10T10:35:32  <krokkrok> server 0 last five minutes no games run :(
2010-11-10T10:36:17  <krokkrok> wont compile entry either :(
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2010-11-10T10:40:27  <krokkrok> knock knock knock anyone home
2010-11-10T10:40:42  <JamesMG> sort of
2010-11-10T10:41:18  <JamesMG> doesn't seem like amstan_ or janzert are
2010-11-10T10:41:41  <Naktibalda> !seen amstan
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2010-11-10T10:42:34  <krokkrok> hopefully they are busy fixing the server :P
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2010-11-10T10:43:49  <JamesMG> @seen amstan
2010-11-10T10:43:49  <contestbot> JamesMG: amstan was last seen in #aichallenge 10 hours, 44 minutes, and 20 seconds ago: <amstan> janzert: nah... he's probably gone
2010-11-10T10:47:10  <krokkrok> ah its running bots again, though the website seems to still be lagged out badly. oh well
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2010-11-10T11:15:56  <lavalamp_> man tcp is brutal today... my bots aren't even positive...
2010-11-10T11:16:22  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4239), george(4116), luksian(4115), bix0r4ever(4103), GreenTea(4097), asavis(4082), dmj111(4047), rsergio(4034), felixcoto(4028), Doraj8(4027)
2010-11-10T11:16:24  <JamesMG> my dev bot, besides being worse than my old one, isn't positive
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2010-11-10T11:27:02  <lavalamp_> my new move generator makes some funky first moves: http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=943316
2010-11-10T11:27:12  <lavalamp_> I'm not sure if that's a bug or not
2010-11-10T11:27:38  <lavalamp_> the gamble totally paid off, too, until it did something stupid later
2010-11-10T11:28:37  <JamesMG> was it taking into account the other player's moves at all when it did that?
2010-11-10T11:28:46  <lavalamp_> no, not at all
2010-11-10T11:28:55  <JamesMG> weird
2010-11-10T11:29:04  <lavalamp_> and I'm really not sure what about my algorithm could cause it to do that
2010-11-10T11:29:15  <JamesMG> sentience, probably
2010-11-10T11:29:18  <lavalamp_> so it's probably a bug
2010-11-10T11:29:21  <lavalamp_> ...or that
2010-11-10T11:29:39  <lavalamp_> but it's sure interesting and I hope it keeps doing it
2010-11-10T11:29:45  <JamesMG> soon it will start writing morse code with fleet ship counts
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2010-11-10T11:30:12  <lavalamp_> ...it will tell me to spend more time with my wife... >.<
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2010-11-10T11:34:31  <lavalamp_> lol neither of us have anti-ragebot code: http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=943610
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2010-11-10T12:16:21  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4241), asavis(4132), george(4122), GreenTea(4099), bix0r4ever(4098), luksian(4078), rsergio(4036), Accoun(4031), dmj111(4029), Doraj8(4018)
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2010-11-10T12:17:38  *** irchs is now known as janstaunton
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2010-11-10T12:24:23  <Guest11839> oh there's only 698 bots on the current rankings list now?
2010-11-10T12:26:16  <JamesMG> I see 3453
2010-11-10T12:28:01  <Guest11839> maybe hit it during a ratings refresh
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2010-11-10T13:16:21  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4238), asavis(4116), george(4110), bix0r4ever(4085), GreenTea(4076), luksian(4066), rsergio(4027), Accoun(4016), Doraj8(4011), dmj111(4005)
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2010-11-10T13:29:59  <cfaftw> my C bot now parses input, makes the appropriate data structures, and regurgitates the state data! Booyah!
2010-11-10T13:30:16  <janstaunton> good work :D
2010-11-10T13:30:25  <janstaunton> Isn't there a starter pack for C?
2010-11-10T13:30:28  <cfaftw> next step:  simulate game
2010-11-10T13:30:39  <cfaftw> janstaunton, not that i could find
2010-11-10T13:30:52  <janstaunton> There may not be, I just assumed there would be one :)
2010-11-10T13:31:09  <cfaftw> yeah you'd think
2010-11-10T13:31:25  <cfaftw> maybe i should release this one
2010-11-10T13:31:45  <cfaftw> it's not pretty though... i haven't worked with C in a while so, i'm still trying to remember how to organize things
2010-11-10T13:32:07  <lavalamp_> demerzel was having problems with his C bot reading stdin
2010-11-10T13:32:33  <cfaftw> yeah
2010-11-10T13:32:52  <cfaftw> mine works fine when i copy and paste the state info to my bot
2010-11-10T13:32:58  <cfaftw> not sure if piping will break it
2010-11-10T13:33:02  <cfaftw> oh wait, let's find out now :P
2010-11-10T13:33:04  <lavalamp_> ah, might want to test that
2010-11-10T13:33:35  <cfaftw> piping works
2010-11-10T13:33:58  <cfaftw> i'm using fgets and sscanf, which is what he's using... not sure what would cause it to break
2010-11-10T13:34:26  <lavalamp_> huh
2010-11-10T13:34:53  <lavalamp_> I made a test C file that I could type at and pipe to but it still didn't work with jbotmanager...
2010-11-10T13:35:08  <cfaftw> interesting
2010-11-10T13:35:21  <cfaftw> i'll have to test that later...
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2010-11-10T13:37:27  <cfaftw> tomorrow i'll work on the T-0 simulation, and hopefully get started on minimax
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2010-11-10T13:39:31  <lavalamp_> T-0?
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2010-11-10T13:43:44  <cfaftw> oh, the state of things if no moves are made on the current turn
2010-11-10T13:44:00  <cfaftw> how the current state will play out
2010-11-10T13:45:15  <cfaftw> "T minus 0"
2010-11-10T13:45:56  <lavalamp_> ah
2010-11-10T13:46:35  <lavalamp_> I think I finally have all the bugs out of mine...
2010-11-10T13:47:16  <lavalamp_> though it does a bit more than that, it keeps track of new orders and available ships and how that will all play out...
2010-11-10T13:48:40  <cfaftw> lavalamp_, nice what lang is yours again?
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2010-11-10T13:50:06  <JamesMG> you using gcc cfaftw?
2010-11-10T13:50:12  <cfaftw> JamesMG, yes
2010-11-10T13:50:16  <cfaftw> C89
2010-11-10T13:50:17  <JamesMG> I thought part of his problems was not developing against that
2010-11-10T13:50:34  <JamesMG> but I only barely read what he was saying
2010-11-10T13:50:53  <cfaftw> haha, well i can only hope i don't run into the same problems
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2010-11-10T13:52:11  <cfaftw> i can't wait to get to the minimax part
2010-11-10T13:52:19  <lavalamp_> cfaftw, golang.org
2010-11-10T13:52:47  <cfaftw> i don't care if i don't make an awesome bot... at this point i just want to write a working implementation of minimax
2010-11-10T13:52:57  <cfaftw> (which is supposedly easy)
2010-11-10T13:53:14  <JamesMG> if I did it, it's easy
2010-11-10T13:53:16  <cfaftw> but when I say "working" i mean "producing useful results"
2010-11-10T13:53:19  <lavalamp_> meh... mine doesn't really work right yet, I wouldn't call it easy
2010-11-10T13:53:21  <JamesMG> although working is debatable
2010-11-10T13:53:39  <JamesMG> does it process a payoff tree? yes
2010-11-10T13:53:46  <JamesMG> does it ever win a game? no.
2010-11-10T13:54:14  <cfaftw> haha
2010-11-10T13:54:30  <lavalamp_> minimax for this game leaves you with a super hard problem (move generation) and a very hard problem (board evaluation)
2010-11-10T13:55:30  <cfaftw> lavalamp_, i already have an idea for board evaluation at each leaf... but yeah, move generation is going to be tricky
2010-11-10T13:55:45  <lavalamp_> I'm excited about the move generator I'm working on now... but I'm going to have to fix the timeouts: http://72.44.46.68/getplayer?player=lavalamp.oblina.0
2010-11-10T13:56:01  <cfaftw> what is causing the timeouts?
2010-11-10T13:56:10  <lavalamp_> me taking too long XP
2010-11-10T13:56:16  <lavalamp_> seriously, I don't know
2010-11-10T13:57:07  <lavalamp_> I have a few too many hairy loops, I guess
2010-11-10T13:57:52  <cfaftw> wow i like your first move on this win:  http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=943747
2010-11-10T13:58:06  <lavalamp_> hopefully I will be able to get it working fast enough to actually serve as a generator :/
2010-11-10T13:58:32  <lavalamp_> yeah I really like the crazy risks it takes
2010-11-10T13:58:45  <lavalamp_> I'm not quite sure if it's a bug or not, I hope not
2010-11-10T13:59:03  <cfaftw> lol, well you'll find out later when you accidentally "fix" it
2010-11-10T13:59:11  <lavalamp_> no doubt :(
2010-11-10T14:00:23  <lavalamp_> here's another one where it's gambit payed off: http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=943316
2010-11-10T14:00:35  <lavalamp_> of course it couldn't keep the advantage and timed out to boot
2010-11-10T14:01:49  <cfaftw> nice
2010-11-10T14:01:57  <cfaftw> opponent used the same strat, but didn't send enough ships
2010-11-10T14:02:08  <lavalamp_> it had a won game if it had defended instead of going after the third neutral
2010-11-10T14:02:49  <lavalamp_> yeah... also opponent was too late, or should have been...
2010-11-10T14:03:13  <lavalamp_> but committing 94 ships to a planet right next to the enemy's base is gutsy
2010-11-10T14:03:36  <cfaftw> yep
2010-11-10T14:03:39  <cfaftw> anyway, i'm out
2010-11-10T14:03:39  <cfaftw> c'ya
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2010-11-10T14:16:22  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4237), george(4099), GreenTea(4073), bix0r4ever(4063), asavis(4061), rsergio(4034), Accoun(4032), luksian(4030), Doraj8(4020), dmj111(4013)
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2010-11-10T15:16:21  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4256), george(4132), bix0r4ever(4098), GreenTea(4096), asavis(4075), rsergio(4064), luksian(4051), Accoun(4049), Doraj8(4030), dmj111(4026)
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2010-11-10T15:32:11  <d0ugal> hrm. So an EOF means the game is over
2010-11-10T15:33:19  <Bobng> yes.
2010-11-10T15:34:14  <d0ugal> The Java game runner never gives an EOF, so when I played the tcp game I got a shedload of exceptions :)
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2010-11-10T16:13:04  <demerzel> <d3c1ph3r> one minute i have 61 shits then i do a method to check to see if its full!
2010-11-10T16:15:27  <lavalamp_> ?
2010-11-10T16:15:39  <demerzel> quote from yesterday that cracked me up
2010-11-10T16:15:42  <lavalamp_> ah
2010-11-10T16:15:48  <demerzel> lavalamp_ i finally got it!  only able to use commands that don't  have to specify stdin/stdout
2010-11-10T16:15:52  <lavalamp_> say how is your bot doing now that you finally got it up?
2010-11-10T16:16:10  <lavalamp_> really? O.o
2010-11-10T16:16:22  <lavalamp_> weird
2010-11-10T16:16:22  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4259), george(4127), GreenTea(4109), bix0r4ever(4097), rsergio(4080), Accoun(4058), dmj111(4034), luksian(4031), rs5147(4025), Doraj8(4020)
2010-11-10T16:16:26  <demerzel> for whatever reason the halting nature of the stdin/sdout makes FILE* handling unstable, i ended up with a getchar() loop and output is a putchar() loop followed by fflush
2010-11-10T16:16:46  <lavalamp_> huh
2010-11-10T16:16:48  <demerzel> i coudl use scanf/printf directly too but it was a dirty dirty hack
2010-11-10T16:17:07  <lavalamp_> I wouldn't touch it once it was working... :/
2010-11-10T16:17:14  <demerzel> but yea look fully functional C :)
2010-11-10T16:17:15  <demerzel> http://ai-contest.com/profile.php?user_id=9166
2010-11-10T16:17:28  <demerzel> in answer to your quesiton i literally just got it working an hour ago lol
2010-11-10T16:17:45  <demerzel> i had stdin working but stdout still wasn't haha
2010-11-10T16:17:54  <demerzel> then i was like well hell let's try putchar and yep it worked
2010-11-10T16:18:34  <lavalamp_> so strange
2010-11-10T16:18:39  <demerzel> yea no shit
2010-11-10T16:18:46  <demerzel> it frustrated me enough to take a day off
2010-11-10T16:18:47  <lavalamp_> You need to make it ignore +0 neutrals, lol
2010-11-10T16:18:48  <demerzel> helped lol
2010-11-10T16:19:10  <demerzel> i'm not sure exactly what situation causes that
2010-11-10T16:19:38  <demerzel> it is forced to take a single target per turn, maybe that was the best one it could take haha
2010-11-10T16:20:06  <demerzel> that's a pure greed anyway i just wanted to put a C bot on the site  - glad i did too cuz i would be super pissed if i went through the last couple days after i had full minimax etc
2010-11-10T16:20:19  <lavalamp_> yeah
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2010-11-10T16:22:55  <demerzel> i still don't know why raedwulf could get away with a fgets
2010-11-10T16:23:00  <demerzel> maybe his startup time is longer or something
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2010-11-10T16:28:15  <lavalamp_> demerzel, check out how crazy my (still buggy) new move generator is: http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=943316
2010-11-10T16:28:21  <demerzel> he did say he has some crazy ass self-alloc system
2010-11-10T16:28:32  <demerzel> like allocs a huge block then manually doles it out for some reason
2010-11-10T16:28:39  <demerzel> probably by the time that's done the pipe is stable
2010-11-10T16:28:49  <McLeopold> too crazy
2010-11-10T16:28:50  <lavalamp_> cftfw is writing a C bot, too, he was here earlier
2010-11-10T16:29:09  <demerzel> why is that crazy lavalamp?  those seem like solid, if aggressive, picks
2010-11-10T16:29:20  <lavalamp_> I think they're risky
2010-11-10T16:29:30  <demerzel> yea but i mean 5/5 is pretty tempting
2010-11-10T16:29:44  <McLeopold> the first move is unsustainable
2010-11-10T16:29:46  <demerzel> i like that map
2010-11-10T16:29:49  <lavalamp_> E323 could have beat my 94 ships if he'd sent everything there on the next turn
2010-11-10T16:29:59  <lavalamp_> yeah it's interesting
2010-11-10T16:30:14  <demerzel> i guess i gotta get back to work on logic lol
2010-11-10T16:30:20  <demerzel> that was a fun 2 or 3 day diversion lol
2010-11-10T16:30:26  <lavalamp_> :/
2010-11-10T16:30:33  <demerzel> i did take a day off tho
2010-11-10T16:30:37  <demerzel> just couldn't take googling any more
2010-11-10T16:31:06  <lavalamp_> McLeopold: yeah I liked it at first but you're right...
2010-11-10T16:31:20  <lavalamp_> Good news is it's probably a bug, I have no idea how my code generated that move
2010-11-10T16:31:28  <lavalamp_> bad news is I have bugs
2010-11-10T16:31:28  <McLeopold> I think you should still try for that stuff, but that particular one shouldn't have worked.
2010-11-10T16:31:43  <demerzel> do you assume the enemy is as smart as you?
2010-11-10T16:31:46  <demerzel> gotten me into trouble
2010-11-10T16:32:03  <demerzel> particularly in situations where i'm holding back x ships for defense, y for minimum needed etc
2010-11-10T16:32:04  <McLeopold> Well, I don't predict, but I'm not going to leave myself open either.
2010-11-10T16:32:05  <demerzel> i end up locked down
2010-11-10T16:32:07  <lavalamp_> atm it assumes the enemy is dumb as rocks
2010-11-10T16:32:15  <demerzel> if i ever lose the edge that is
2010-11-10T16:33:32  <demerzel> yea what i put is pure greed, intended for my neutral acquisition
2010-11-10T16:33:41  <demerzel> but i'm not sure when and how to flip the switch to minimax
2010-11-10T16:33:48  <demerzel> i mean i guess i know /how/ haha
2010-11-10T16:33:57  <demerzel> i don't wanna flip it too soon because pure greed can easily handle 4 ply
2010-11-10T16:34:00  <lavalamp_> oh that's not running minimax code?
2010-11-10T16:34:05  <demerzel> no that's pure greed
2010-11-10T16:34:28  <lavalamp_> ah, I'm planning to have the same process run the whole game... :/
2010-11-10T16:34:30  <demerzel> was just my neutral acq code, got all the enemy routines set up just haven't used them
2010-11-10T16:34:40  <demerzel> i think even that has bugs haha
2010-11-10T16:34:49  <demerzel> but i just barely got it working with all the new abstractions
2010-11-10T16:35:28  <lavalamp_> I want more time :(
2010-11-10T16:35:46  <demerzel> yea it's kinda amazing how that went from 'hey you got a month left!' to just over 2 weeks haha
2010-11-10T16:35:55  <demerzel> i'll just barely have any kind of game tree stabilized by then
2010-11-10T16:36:20  <lavalamp_> fortunately my framework seems stable
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2010-11-10T16:52:21  <Error323_> well
2010-11-10T16:52:26  <Error323_> i got alphabeta running
2010-11-10T16:52:42  <Error323_> but its not doing that good as my heuristic version yet :/
2010-11-10T16:52:51  <Error323_> the valuefunction is haaaaaaaard
2010-11-10T16:53:04  <lavalamp_> no kidding
2010-11-10T16:53:23  <lavalamp_> but not as hard as good move generation
2010-11-10T16:55:00  <Error323_> well i got that covered
2010-11-10T16:55:07  <Error323_> so yeh, it is harder imo
2010-11-10T16:55:27  <lavalamp_> haha
2010-11-10T16:55:38  <Error323_> =]
2010-11-10T16:55:40  <McLeopold> Error323_: is it running on tcp yet?
2010-11-10T16:55:44  <Error323_> yes
2010-11-10T16:55:49  <Error323_> http://72.44.46.68/getplayer?player=E323-17.0-6-g0ff9616
2010-11-10T16:56:01  <lavalamp_> I realized I was trtying to solve problems with my value function that I needed to solve with my move generation
2010-11-10T16:58:41  <McLeopold> check out move 44: http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=952945
2010-11-10T16:59:13  <McLeopold> it seems like oldman could have abandoned toward the three growth 5 planets to better effect
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2010-11-10T17:00:06  <lavalamp_> yeah that might have made the game a lot shorter
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2010-11-10T17:00:27  <Migi32> wow, I didn't know how much a really basic distribution heuristic could improve your bot
2010-11-10T17:00:42  <McLeopold> if you have minimax working, I'm surprised you left that planet open
2010-11-10T17:00:59  <McLeopold> Migi32: you mean funnelling to the front line?
2010-11-10T17:01:08  <Migi32> yep
2010-11-10T17:01:19  <McLeopold> yeah, it's amazing
2010-11-10T17:02:05  <sigh> yeah, back when the contest was starting, just having any sort of redistribution put you near the top :)
2010-11-10T17:02:39  <Error323_> yey two wins against testingfrompiter
2010-11-10T17:02:54  <McLeopold> sweet, he has a good bot
2010-11-10T17:03:05  <McLeopold> Error323_: http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=952961
2010-11-10T17:03:17  <McLeopold> How come you didn't defend the incoming large fleet?
2010-11-10T17:03:37  <Error323_> i really don't know
2010-11-10T17:03:44  <McLeopold> are defense moves not part of the move generator?
2010-11-10T17:03:45  <Error323_> probably my heuristic function being crap
2010-11-10T17:03:47  <Error323_> yes
2010-11-10T17:03:52  <Error323_> everything but staging is
2010-11-10T17:05:05  <Error323_> i created such an elegant formula
2010-11-10T17:05:06  <Error323_> but nooooo
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2010-11-10T17:05:17  <Error323_> damnit
2010-11-10T17:05:43  <McLeopold> so, in your wins against Piter, I think you got lucky with the map selection
2010-11-10T17:05:59  <McLeopold> not to say that you couldn't beat him on other map types.
2010-11-10T17:06:52  <Error323_> mja could be
2010-11-10T17:06:58  <Error323_> most likely
2010-11-10T17:07:04  <McLeopold> More so on the second game, he made a terrible opening move
2010-11-10T17:07:15  <McLeopold> On the first one, he could have taken the center.
2010-11-10T17:07:30  <McLeopold> And he abandoned the growth 5 in the middle.
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2010-11-10T17:08:06  <Error323_> how could he have taken the center on the first one
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2010-11-10T17:08:12  <Error323_> first game against him you mean
2010-11-10T17:08:13  <Error323_> ?
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2010-11-10T17:08:21  <McLeopold> I'm telling you this, because I want you to do well, not because I'm a bastard.
2010-11-10T17:08:37  <McLeopold> yes, first game
2010-11-10T17:08:39  <Error323_> :) cool
2010-11-10T17:08:54  <McLeopold> turn 12 he only sends 17 to the center, he had 33 more
2010-11-10T17:09:37  <McLeopold> he could have sustainted the attack and had even growth
2010-11-10T17:09:39  <Error323_> indd
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2010-11-10T17:09:44  <lavalamp_> anyone who has played much go should appreciate brutal game reviews... =P
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2010-11-10T17:09:58  <McLeopold> Which means, you're minimax may be too agressive.
2010-11-10T17:10:19  <McLeopold> (wow, how do you screw up "your" the hard way?)
2010-11-10T17:10:49  <Error323_> lol
2010-11-10T17:10:59  <Error323_> mja its not yet very good hehe
2010-11-10T17:11:10  <Error323_> but i'm quite sure that its the evalfunction
2010-11-10T17:11:15  <Error323_> >_>
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2010-11-10T17:12:17  <McLeopold> mja?
2010-11-10T17:12:20  <Error323_> http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=953160 lol, fail
2010-11-10T17:12:31  <Error323_> why the hell doesn't it attack :P
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2010-11-10T17:13:29  <McLeopold> that was a win
2010-11-10T17:13:53  <Error323_> yeh but it saves up a massive amount of ships
2010-11-10T17:14:00  <Error323_> without attacking while it easily could
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2010-11-10T17:14:32  <McLeopold> Do you think you could write attacks from multiple planets?
2010-11-10T17:14:50  <McLeopold> That 81 at move 32 was kinda slow.
2010-11-10T17:16:23  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4254), george(4116), GreenTea(4099), bix0r4ever(4082), rsergio(4076), Accoun(4058), dmj111(4028), luksian(4027), rs5147(4020), Doraj8(4016)
2010-11-10T17:16:43  <McLeopold> http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=953239
2010-11-10T17:17:04  <Error323_> it can attack from multiple planets (only a few though)
2010-11-10T17:17:18  <McLeopold> loss against piter
2010-11-10T17:17:23  <McLeopold> you got sniped
2010-11-10T17:17:58  <lavalamp_> twice, ouch
2010-11-10T17:18:47  <Error323_> yea...
2010-11-10T17:18:48  <Error323_> ouch
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2010-11-10T17:24:40  <Error323_> goddamnit 2 days work >_<
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2010-11-10T17:27:22  <Migi32> Error323_, 2 days work for what? I didn't read the entire conversation.
2010-11-10T17:27:59  <Error323_> alphabeta action generation and evaluationfunction
2010-11-10T17:28:12  <Error323_> well alphabeta itself took like 4 days or so
2010-11-10T17:29:02  <Migi32> oh, nice
2010-11-10T17:29:14  <Migi32> really nice :P
2010-11-10T17:29:23  <Error323_> ye, except that its performing nearly the same as my heuristic version
2010-11-10T17:29:25  <Error323_> xD
2010-11-10T17:29:37  <Error323_> just slightly worse apparently
2010-11-10T17:29:48  <Migi32> ah, and you don't know how to improve the search anymore?
2010-11-10T17:30:10  <Migi32> what are you using as leaf node evaluation now?
2010-11-10T17:30:12  <Error323_> I don't know howto assign a value to a certain gamestate that makes sense
2010-11-10T17:30:18  <Error323_> exactly :P
2010-11-10T17:30:19  <Migi32> oh ok :P
2010-11-10T17:30:29  <Error323_>  * The heuristic score is defined as follows:
2010-11-10T17:30:29  <Error323_>  *         /                 f_e(p) + 1      \     /                 f_m(p) + 1      \
2010-11-10T17:30:33  <Error323_>  * h(n) = |Sum_{p in P_w(n)} ---------- * g(p)| - |Sum_{p in P_l(n)} ---------- * g(p)|,
2010-11-10T17:30:36  <Error323_>  *         \                 f_m(p) + 1      /     \                 f_e(p) + 1      /
2010-11-10T17:30:40  <Error323_>  *
2010-11-10T17:30:42  <Error323_>  * Where P_w(n) is the set of planets won at node n, P_l is the set of
2010-11-10T17:30:45  <Error323_>  * planets lost at node n, f_m(p) are the amount of fleets on my side send
2010-11-10T17:30:47  <Error323_>  * to this planet, f_e(p) are the amount of enemy fleets send to this
2010-11-10T17:30:50  <Error323_>  * planet and g(p) is the planet's growth rate.
2010-11-10T17:30:52  <Error323_> screw it :P
2010-11-10T17:30:55  <Error323_> there it is
2010-11-10T17:30:57  <Error323_> open to suggestions :P
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2010-11-10T17:31:11  <Migi32> thanks for sharing :)
2010-11-10T17:31:20  <Migi32> now let me see where I can find an improvement
2010-11-10T17:32:33  <lavalamp_> huh that's completely different from my approach
2010-11-10T17:32:55  <Migi32> what's a "node"? I mean, where do you branch in your search?
2010-11-10T17:33:07  <Error323_> a node is a gamestate
2010-11-10T17:34:04  <Migi32> yea but "won" compared to what?
2010-11-10T17:34:28  <Migi32> P_w(n) makes little sense if I don't know what's in it :P
2010-11-10T17:34:56  <lavalamp_> difference from root node?
2010-11-10T17:35:06  <Migi32> ok, that does make sense.
2010-11-10T17:35:11  <Error323_> yes
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2010-11-10T17:35:38  <lavalamp_> Yeah, planets won/lost is a factor I should add to mine
2010-11-10T17:35:51  <McLeopold> does f_e/f_m count fleets still in flight?
2010-11-10T17:36:01  <Error323_> indeed
2010-11-10T17:36:05  <demerzel> lol i forgot what | x | is in math formulas
2010-11-10T17:36:09  <demerzel> what does that mean
2010-11-10T17:36:17  <lavalamp_> absolute value
2010-11-10T17:36:21  <demerzel> ahh ty
2010-11-10T17:36:30  <Migi32> but here it's just fancy brackets, right?
2010-11-10T17:36:34  <Error323_> indeed
2010-11-10T17:36:37  <lavalamp_> though above I think it's part of giant parens
2010-11-10T17:37:01  <Migi32> you used Maple or Mathematica for this somehow?
2010-11-10T17:37:02  <McLeopold> that seems overly complicated.  Why not just number of ships?
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2010-11-10T17:37:27  <demerzel> so it's a sum of the f_e/f_m * g?
2010-11-10T17:37:37  <demerzel> is that total?
2010-11-10T17:37:48  <demerzel> or do you consider non conquer moves
2010-11-10T17:38:45  <McLeopold> It seems, if you send a giant fleet to a growth 2, that would be more valuable even if you lost a growth 5 by 1 ship.
2010-11-10T17:38:51  <demerzel> oh you are considering whether conquering is worth it i get it
2010-11-10T17:39:12  <Error323_> McLeopold: only if there is also a giant fleet of the enemy going that way
2010-11-10T17:39:27  <Error323_> otherwise its much less valuable
2010-11-10T17:39:30  <McLeopold> oh!
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2010-11-10T17:40:06  <lavalamp_> my eval function is more an attempt to look at features of the map: total growth rate, total ship count, connectedness of empire, etc
2010-11-10T17:40:21  <Error323_> (1 / 10000) * g(p)
2010-11-10T17:40:26  <Error323_> is very small
2010-11-10T17:40:37  <McLeopold> You should slap a basic defense routine in just before this runs.  I beat you'd do a lot better.
2010-11-10T17:40:46  <McLeopold> bet
2010-11-10T17:41:00  <Error323_> mmm well i tried stuff like that
2010-11-10T17:41:10  <Error323_> but interferes massively with the alphabeta
2010-11-10T17:41:13  <Migi32> well, if f_m(p) <= f_e(p) it's basically a free planet and you should score any node without that move infinity lower than one with it, so how about sum( g(p) / (f_m(p)-f_e(p)) ) ?
2010-11-10T17:41:18  <Error323_> as that assumes the same as the enemy will
2010-11-10T17:41:37  <McLeopold> if you put in the defense moves, the updated the game state, then did the search from there?
2010-11-10T17:42:58  <Error323_> mmm Migi32 let me think about that
2010-11-10T17:43:13  <Migi32> it's just growth / cost really :P
2010-11-10T17:44:03  <lavalamp_> I will be quite surprised if a simple (sort) formula like this actually does a good job evaulating various positions
2010-11-10T17:44:20  <Migi32> how is it doing now? What's its name on tcp?
2010-11-10T17:44:21  <lavalamp_> it seems like there are more factors
2010-11-10T17:44:42  <Error323_> well it doesn't perform that bad
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2010-11-10T17:44:55  <Error323_> http://72.44.46.68/getplayer?player=E323-17.0-6-g0ff9616
2010-11-10T17:45:00  <lavalamp_> yeah, it's doing better than mine, that's for sure
2010-11-10T17:45:00  <Error323_> though also not that good :P
2010-11-10T17:45:10  <lavalamp_> but I bet mega1's is more complicated
2010-11-10T17:45:45  <Error323_> yeah
2010-11-10T17:45:56  <Migi32> if it performs good with such a simple scoring function, you must have really good move generation/pruning
2010-11-10T17:45:56  <Error323_> and he's also going one ply
2010-11-10T17:46:00  <Error323_> i'm going two ply
2010-11-10T17:46:16  <lavalamp_> if you could get lots of depth, then something like that (or just # of ships) would probably work fine
2010-11-10T17:46:29  <lavalamp_> but at 1 or 2 ply I just don't see that working
2010-11-10T17:46:39  <Error323_> mja
2010-11-10T17:46:58  <Error323_> its probably mostly the actionset itself thats highly pruned
2010-11-10T17:47:19  <lavalamp_> I was getting 2 ply before I killed my performance
2010-11-10T17:47:23  <McLeopold> Error323_: http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=953484
2010-11-10T17:47:30  <McLeopold> that is actually a very impressive win
2010-11-10T17:47:40  <lavalamp_> now my move generator times out all by itself w/out any tree search
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2010-11-10T17:48:12  <Error323_> indd whohoo ^_^
2010-11-10T17:48:43  <Migi32> McLeopold, not really. He sniped the 148 planet.
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2010-11-10T17:48:53  <McLeopold> Migi32: but he didn't
2010-11-10T17:48:57  <Migi32> if oldman hadn't gone for the 148 he wouldn't have won
2010-11-10T17:49:39  <McLeopold> it was going for the 52 as well
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2010-11-10T17:49:47  <McLeopold> oldman waited for the correct time
2010-11-10T17:49:54  <McLeopold> he just did it wrong
2010-11-10T17:50:19  <Migi32> :)
2010-11-10T17:50:38  <lavalamp_> yeah he was not enough ships ahead to do both for sure
2010-11-10T17:51:26  <McLeopold> it's the patience of error to hit the upper planet first that I like
2010-11-10T17:52:17  <lavalamp_> oldman didn't even need to take a neutral, he should have just been sending extra ships to drain E323's forces
2010-11-10T17:52:46  <McLeopold> true
2010-11-10T17:52:55  <McLeopold> or he could have taken the 52 first and waited
2010-11-10T17:53:07  <lavalamp_> yeah
2010-11-10T17:53:17  <Migi32> or he could just have done nothing
2010-11-10T17:53:45  <lavalamp_> IMO, having two large forces gives the underdog a chance to make complications
2010-11-10T17:53:52  <Error323_> http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=953758 another win against oldman :>
2010-11-10T17:53:56  <McLeopold> agreed
2010-11-10T17:54:10  <lavalamp_> so draining is best
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2010-11-10T17:54:30  <sigh> draining?
2010-11-10T17:54:49  <lavalamp_> stream ships at your opponent. trade ships when you're ahead.
2010-11-10T17:55:07  <sigh> ah yeah, makes sense
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2010-11-10T17:55:13  <Migi32> don't do that if the enemy is too far away though
2010-11-10T17:55:14  <sigh> my bot does better when it does that
2010-11-10T17:55:17  <McLeopold> that ones even better
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2010-11-10T17:56:09  <sigh> well, my bot only drains from planets which it thinks it has a chance of taking
2010-11-10T17:56:56  <McLeopold> when not to drain: http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=953808
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2010-11-10T17:57:29  <sigh> what about when behind? what is better?
2010-11-10T17:57:46  <McLeopold> well, not when your growth is lower, for sure
2010-11-10T17:58:33  <sigh> if you are behind with lower growth then you are in trouble :)
2010-11-10T17:58:46  <McLeopold> it depends on the position
2010-11-10T17:58:49  <sigh> still not sure the best way to handle that
2010-11-10T17:58:50  <sigh> yes
2010-11-10T17:58:55  <Error323_> yeah this just shows how screwed up it is atm
2010-11-10T17:58:57  <bhasker_> going to start up my last submission again and see where it levels out on tcp
2010-11-10T17:58:58  <Error323_> >_<
2010-11-10T17:59:00  <McLeopold> in that game, error still had control of most of the map
2010-11-10T17:59:26  <bhasker_> error your bot is much better than mine:p
2010-11-10T17:59:26  <McLeopold> dang, i need to code for 30 minutes, then I'll join you...
2010-11-10T17:59:31  <bhasker_> so you don't have anything to worry from mine
2010-11-10T17:59:40  <Error323_> lol
2010-11-10T17:59:40  <Migi32> lol, McLeopold, Shampoo almost screwed it up in the last couple seconds. Taking that neutral there was risky.
2010-11-10T17:59:49  <McLeopold> yeah
2010-11-10T17:59:50  <Error323_> bhasker_: wasn't referred to that :)
2010-11-10T17:59:51  <bhasker_> shampoo has improved a lot
2010-11-10T18:00:01  <bhasker_> his bot is much better now than it was  a week ago
2010-11-10T18:00:03  <Error323_> but the fail of my evaluation function
2010-11-10T18:00:07  <bhasker_> ah
2010-11-10T18:00:18  <McLeopold> gotta code...
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2010-11-10T18:00:35  <bhasker_> i am split between rewriting in python vs c++
2010-11-10T18:00:45  <bhasker_> copying game state etc bug free in python is a pain
2010-11-10T18:00:49  <bhasker_> with everything being a reference
2010-11-10T18:00:57  <sigh> bhasker_: what is your current lang?
2010-11-10T18:01:01  <bhasker_> python
2010-11-10T18:01:18  <Error323_> why do you wanna goto c++?
2010-11-10T18:01:25  <bhasker_> for speed
2010-11-10T18:01:38  <bhasker_> and the fact that i know when i write a copy constructor it correctly copies the state
2010-11-10T18:01:50  <bhasker_> instead of python doing something weird with circular references etc
2010-11-10T18:01:50  <Error323_> =]
2010-11-10T18:02:00  <bhasker_> and having to use liek a copy module to deepcopy
2010-11-10T18:02:02  <demerzel> are you still considering rewriting?
2010-11-10T18:02:06  <demerzel> getting a little close now
2010-11-10T18:02:11  <Error323_> indd
2010-11-10T18:02:11  <bhasker_> oh this is just for fun
2010-11-10T18:02:14  <Error323_> lol
2010-11-10T18:02:15  <demerzel> thought you already did
2010-11-10T18:02:34  <bhasker_> to see if i can write a non heuristic bot
2010-11-10T18:02:38  <bhasker_> that does better than my current one
2010-11-10T18:02:46  <bhasker_> probably will not complete before submission deadline
2010-11-10T18:03:02  <demerzel> why ddi someone say mega1 was pure max he said he was minimaxc
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2010-11-10T18:03:20  <bhasker_> mega1 said he was 1 ply max
2010-11-10T18:03:26  <Error323_> ye
2010-11-10T18:03:28  <bhasker_> he was not considering enemy moves
2010-11-10T18:03:29  <bhasker_> its what he says
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2010-11-10T18:03:43  <Error323_> i figured if i could get two it would be good
2010-11-10T18:03:53  <Error323_> but the biggest issue is the eval function
2010-11-10T18:03:57  <Error323_> here atleast
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2010-11-10T18:04:10  <Error323_> i really don't know something proper
2010-11-10T18:04:15  <bhasker_> actually it will also matter how far into the future you evaluate
2010-11-10T18:04:21  <bhasker_> you may want to try changing your horizon
2010-11-10T18:04:25  <bhasker_> and see how that works
2010-11-10T18:04:27  <demerzel> no way mega is 1ply max only
2010-11-10T18:04:32  <demerzel> that's what i have done like twice
2010-11-10T18:04:33  <bhasker_> well thats what he says
2010-11-10T18:04:37  <lavalamp_> yeah
2010-11-10T18:04:39  <demerzel> he said he had 2 ply minimax
2010-11-10T18:04:40  <bhasker_> he could be lying:)
2010-11-10T18:04:45  <demerzel> and 1 ply max
2010-11-10T18:05:03  <demerzel> headed home ttyl
2010-11-10T18:05:04  <lavalamp_> maybe he upped it, last I heard he was 1 ply
2010-11-10T18:05:04  <bhasker_> hmm how does one combine that?
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2010-11-10T18:05:14  <sigh> 1 ply is you move + opp move?
2010-11-10T18:05:25  <Error323_> no, just you
2010-11-10T18:05:25  <lavalamp_> it is for me
2010-11-10T18:05:31  <sigh> oh, so just max?
2010-11-10T18:05:32  <Error323_> iirc
2010-11-10T18:05:35  <Error323_> ye
2010-11-10T18:05:45  <sigh> lol, I have that :P
2010-11-10T18:05:48  <bhasker_> yea a ply is a turn by one person
2010-11-10T18:05:50  <bhasker_> in a 2 player game
2010-11-10T18:05:51  <lavalamp_> ply usually means one player, but that doesn't make sense in this game
2010-11-10T18:06:00  <bhasker_> so a 2 play
2010-11-10T18:06:02  <bhasker_> ply*
2010-11-10T18:06:05  <bhasker_> would be a move each
2010-11-10T18:06:20  <sigh> I assumed 1ply was both... because otherwise it doesn't make sense to call it minimax...
2010-11-10T18:06:21  <Error323_> well they both go simultaniously, but you move your own before the other and then run the simulator
2010-11-10T18:06:23  <bhasker_> at least thats what i understood from the wikipedia article *
2010-11-10T18:06:36  <bhasker_> hmm Error why would you do that
2010-11-10T18:06:39  <Error323_> thats how i do it
2010-11-10T18:06:39  <bhasker_> won't both go same time?
2010-11-10T18:06:48  <lavalamp_> gotta go bbl
2010-11-10T18:06:49  <bhasker_> otherwise you are putting player 2 at a disadvantage?
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2010-11-10T18:06:54  <bhasker_> or an advantage riather
2010-11-10T18:06:56  <Error323_> no, because you wanna keep track of enemy move vs your move
2010-11-10T18:06:59  <bhasker_> hmm
2010-11-10T18:07:00  <Error323_> and score them seperatly
2010-11-10T18:07:16  <Error323_> my moves are at depth % 2 == 0
2010-11-10T18:07:22  <Error323_> enemy is at depth % 2 == 1
2010-11-10T18:07:35  <Error323_> simulation is also run at depth % 2 == 1
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2010-11-10T18:09:13  <Error323_> well that's how i do it
2010-11-10T18:09:40  <Error323_> i thorougly tested it though ^^
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2010-11-10T18:11:53  <Error323_> i'm not sure if i wanna keep going down this path
2010-11-10T18:12:03  <Error323_> given the time >_<
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2010-11-10T18:15:57  <McLeopold> uh oh
2010-11-10T18:16:05  <McLeopold> I'm gonna lose to error
2010-11-10T18:16:13  <Error323_> lol
2010-11-10T18:16:18  <Error323_> its the heuristic version
2010-11-10T18:16:25  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4254), george(4111), GreenTea(4093), rsergio(4078), bix0r4ever(4072), Accoun(4064), rs5147(4042), Raschi(4039), dmj111(4022), hutabhu(4018)
2010-11-10T18:16:28  <Error323_> but your score is fairly high, where are you @ official?
2010-11-10T18:16:32  <McLeopold> even worse :(
2010-11-10T18:16:40  <McLeopold> I haven't touched official in awhile
2010-11-10T18:16:44  <Error323_> oh
2010-11-10T18:16:45  <McLeopold> old one is at 70's
2010-11-10T18:17:15  <McLeopold> that was the worst 5 minute fix ever
2010-11-10T18:18:15  <sigh> Error323_: McLeopold's official bot is just what he uploaded at the start of the competition
2010-11-10T18:18:27  <sigh> the fact that it is 70 is amazing
2010-11-10T18:18:28  <Error323_> ah
2010-11-10T18:18:32  <McLeopold> okay, lavalamp
2010-11-10T18:18:35  <McLeopold> down you go
2010-11-10T18:18:37  <Error323_> indeed
2010-11-10T18:20:52  <JamesMG> blah, 2 non-starters in a row on official
2010-11-10T18:22:01  <Error323_> well i'm still #1 of my country
2010-11-10T18:22:03  <JamesMG> getting a bit late in the competition to port too
2010-11-10T18:22:04  <Error323_> \o/
2010-11-10T18:22:09  <sigh> Error323_: me too :)
2010-11-10T18:22:10  <Error323_> thats the most important :P
2010-11-10T18:22:31  <Error323_> :D
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2010-11-10T18:22:51  <Migi32> my old bot (submitted begin october or so) is still best of my organisation :P
2010-11-10T18:23:06  <sigh> what organisation?
2010-11-10T18:23:17  <Migi32> Ghent University
2010-11-10T18:23:54  <Error323_> dus je spreekt nederlands?
2010-11-10T18:24:04  <Migi32> jaja :P
2010-11-10T18:24:06  <McLeopold> wow, i really went downhill today
2010-11-10T18:24:16  <Error323_> =]
2010-11-10T18:24:43  <Migi32> oh it's called affiliation, not organization
2010-11-10T18:25:08  <Zannick> my affiliation has nobody in the top 100 :(
2010-11-10T18:25:20  <Zannick> and i am 7th
2010-11-10T18:25:31  <Error323_> wut
2010-11-10T18:25:32  <Error323_> nice
2010-11-10T18:25:33  <sigh> my affiliation is owning the competition
2010-11-10T18:25:40  <Zannick> 7th in my affiliation, i mean
2010-11-10T18:25:43  <Error323_> ohh
2010-11-10T18:25:52  <Zannick> i am in the 700s :P
2010-11-10T18:27:42  <McLeopold> Error323_: I'm hoping to play your minimax bot
2010-11-10T18:27:45  <Error323_> bhasker_: http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=954141 :D :P
2010-11-10T18:28:08  <bhasker_> heh behind by a few ships:(
2010-11-10T18:28:13  <Error323_> ye
2010-11-10T18:28:14  <bhasker_> problem with my bot being a bit reactionary
2010-11-10T18:28:22  <Migi32> only 4 people from Amsterdam. Spread the word, Error323_ :P
2010-11-10T18:28:23  <bhasker_> it doesn't acquire neutrals if we are close to even
2010-11-10T18:28:31  <bhasker_> unless the enemy acquires
2010-11-10T18:28:34  <bhasker_> so sometimes its a turn behind
2010-11-10T18:28:39  <bhasker_> and i lose a lot of games like this
2010-11-10T18:28:42  <Error323_> McLeopold: probably in time they will meet =)
2010-11-10T18:28:57  <bhasker_> you ignore http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=954169
2010-11-10T18:28:57  <Error323_> bhasker_: ye i have the same problem
2010-11-10T18:29:01  <bhasker_> :)
2010-11-10T18:29:02  <McLeopold> what do you use to run it?
2010-11-10T18:29:09  <McLeopold> I'm using JBotManager.
2010-11-10T18:29:36  <Error323_> hehe yeah :/
2010-11-10T18:29:47  <Error323_> this is a prblem with my action generation being very limited :P
2010-11-10T18:29:57  <bhasker_> :) the mistake was acquiring that neutral
2010-11-10T18:29:58  <bhasker_> inthe middle
2010-11-10T18:30:00  <Migi32> btw McLeopold, is it just my pc or does drawLines slow down JBotManager a lot?
2010-11-10T18:30:02  <bhasker_> next to the 5 growth
2010-11-10T18:30:07  <Error323_> indd
2010-11-10T18:30:09  <bhasker_> it does slow down a lot
2010-11-10T18:30:14  <bhasker_> and antialiasing too
2010-11-10T18:30:15  <McLeopold> I don't notice anything.
2010-11-10T18:30:27  <bhasker_> i guess also depends on the jvm
2010-11-10T18:30:37  <bhasker_> on my mac its annoying to use
2010-11-10T18:30:40  <bhasker_> so i just use my script now
2010-11-10T18:30:43  <bhasker_> to run it
2010-11-10T18:31:42  <Migi32> when I finally get a half-decent bot I think I'll just let JBotManager run as a kind of screensaver
2010-11-10T18:32:17  <Error323_> well given that its all generated and the simple eval func its actually not far off from my heuristic bot
2010-11-10T18:32:21  <Error323_> but ye
2010-11-10T18:32:30  <Error323_> this is not what i had hoped :P
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2010-11-10T18:34:09  <Error323_> at some states i generate 3000 actions o_O
2010-11-10T18:35:34  <Migi32> Error323_, what's the average # states you generate?
2010-11-10T18:35:49  <Migi32> 3000 sounds reasonable
2010-11-10T18:35:52  <Error323_> don't know tbh
2010-11-10T18:37:24  <Error323_> its very dependent on the game and opponent
2010-11-10T18:37:36  <Migi32> I did a minimax-like thing and the average number of "suggestions" it made was like 300 per turn, with spikes of over 100000 (that's where it timed out after 60 seconds)
2010-11-10T18:38:59  <Migi32> and the best move it found was on 90% of the turns doing nothing XD
2010-11-10T18:39:11  <sigh> yeah, I had something similar by iterating over the powerset of planets to attack
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2010-11-10T18:40:51  <Error323_> hehe
2010-11-10T18:41:59  <McLeopold> yeah! error
2010-11-10T18:42:20  <McLeopold> i think it's the minimax one
2010-11-10T18:43:20  <Migi32> McLeopold, is AntBot your latest bot in development?
2010-11-10T18:43:25  <McLeopold> yes
2010-11-10T18:43:40  <McLeopold> it's still got some major problems though
2010-11-10T18:43:50  <McLeopold> And I'm worried about performance
2010-11-10T18:43:58  <McLeopold> I fear it will timeout in most matches on official
2010-11-10T18:44:30  <antimatroid1> McLeopold: is it minimaxing?
2010-11-10T18:44:32  <Error323_> yep
2010-11-10T18:44:35  <Error323_> it will
2010-11-10T18:44:49  <McLeopold> no, crazy heurististics
2010-11-10T18:44:50  <antimatroid1> i think i've given up on minimax, it's too hard to get the information correct and not reduce it to a crawling pace
2010-11-10T18:45:15  <sigh> antimatroid1: it's only been one day o_O
2010-11-10T18:45:15  <antimatroid1> yeah, i'm going to see what i can do at making a kickass heuristic bot now
2010-11-10T18:45:34  <antimatroid1> sigh: i  made the decision last night, i was doing too many calculations just to ensure information was correct
2010-11-10T18:45:39  <Error323_> http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/1196401/2d3902f0/epische_3d_hologram_platen.html this is epic
2010-11-10T18:46:03  <bhasker_> E323 http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=954279
2010-11-10T18:46:12  <bhasker_> http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=954346
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2010-11-10T18:46:52  <bhasker_> my bot will soon start dropping in rating though once it starts going up against Accoun* variants
2010-11-10T18:47:12  <Error323_> nice
2010-11-10T18:47:19  <Error323_> the llast one has a nice neutral cap
2010-11-10T18:47:25  <Error323_> while i'm doing nothing -.-
2010-11-10T18:47:36  <bhasker_> yup
2010-11-10T18:48:03  <bhasker_> even in the first one
2010-11-10T18:48:09  <bhasker_> i capture two neutrals at the back of my base
2010-11-10T18:48:11  <antimatroid1> sigh: to draw a picture, i had not just data for incoming and outgoing fleets, but also mock incoming and outgoing fleets
2010-11-10T18:48:31  <bhasker_> antimatroid i tried that
2010-11-10T18:48:35  <bhasker_> doesn't work very well
2010-11-10T18:48:37  <bhasker_> bot just stalls
2010-11-10T18:49:05  <antimatroid1> all outgoing fleets had to be done individually, and every time i generated future states i had to clear mock incoming and resend them as i generated, it was too much for me and i dropped it
2010-11-10T18:49:06  <bhasker_> everytime i try to give it better /accurate information to calculate available ships etc it just stalls
2010-11-10T18:49:39  <antimatroid1> well, it could have been done, but not efficiently
2010-11-10T18:49:52  <antimatroid1> not to do that in every node of a game tree
2010-11-10T18:50:09  <sigh> hmm... ok, this weekend I'm going to spend a few hours to see if I can think up a light-weigth minimax
2010-11-10T18:50:35  <antimatroid1> minimax isn't the problem, it's resolving the moves they then make (rembering i'm not just sending fleets "now")
2010-11-10T18:51:08  <sigh> yeah, I mean the whole package
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2010-11-10T18:53:08  <McLeopold> lucky win: http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=954495
2010-11-10T18:53:18  <McLeopold> that is how not to take neutrals when your ahead
2010-11-10T18:54:21  <Error323_> wut
2010-11-10T18:54:23  <Error323_> nice
2010-11-10T18:54:43  <McLeopold> Error323_: I've got the same advice for myself now. :)
2010-11-10T18:56:48  <bhasker_> mcleopold my bot does that i have a simple check  ( if myprod>enemy) don't acquire neutral!
2010-11-10T18:56:54  <bhasker_> unless enemy is acquiring
2010-11-10T18:56:59  <bhasker_> in which case you either snipe
2010-11-10T18:57:02  <bhasker_> or acquire your own
2010-11-10T18:57:12  <McLeopold> that sounds good
2010-11-10T18:57:59  <bhasker_> otherwise my bot will not go for new neutrals
2010-11-10T18:58:05  <bhasker_> if its even
2010-11-10T18:58:18  <bhasker_> it will go if it think it can acquire neutral for which i look at a few factor
2010-11-10T18:58:19  <bhasker_> s
2010-11-10T18:58:36  <bhasker_> my ships/enemyships, my ships headed to neutrals,enemy ships headed to neutrals
2010-11-10T18:58:41  <bhasker_> enemy ships incoming
2010-11-10T18:58:42  <bhasker_> etc
2010-11-10T18:58:55  <antimatroid1> i do growth counts after all fleets are run
2010-11-10T18:59:07  <antimatroid1> and make expansionary moves based off of that
2010-11-10T18:59:09  <bhasker_> and approximately how many ships i can expect from the new planet before enemies first attack reaches
2010-11-10T18:59:10  <bhasker_> eg
2010-11-10T18:59:25  <bhasker_> (closestDist-turnsToAcquire)*growth
2010-11-10T18:59:33  <bhasker_> if its <0 i just set it to zero
2010-11-10T18:59:56  <bhasker_> if its >0 i just add that to the left side of the equation
2010-11-10T19:00:01  <bhasker_> etc
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2010-11-10T19:00:44  <bhasker_> heh looks like my bot is on a winnning spree on tcp
2010-11-10T19:00:48  <bhasker_> upto #24
2010-11-10T19:01:06  <demerzel> about to plug back in to tcp after i figure out what to do with minimax lol
2010-11-10T19:01:14  <demerzel> i'm pretty sure even my pure greed code is bugged
2010-11-10T19:01:25  <sigh> everyone is minimaxing it up
2010-11-10T19:01:39  <bhasker_> everyone is bored of turning heuristics
2010-11-10T19:01:41  <bhasker_> :-\
2010-11-10T19:01:43  <bhasker_> i think
2010-11-10T19:01:53  <demerzel> i've never had heuristics
2010-11-10T19:01:59  <sigh> well, some people are just maxing and calling it minimax apparently
2010-11-10T19:02:06  <demerzel> yea lol
2010-11-10T19:02:20  <demerzel> i've been pure max since the beginning and minimax is def a lot harder
2010-11-10T19:02:52  <Mathnerd314> minimax is just wrong
2010-11-10T19:03:04  <demerzel> how so
2010-11-10T19:03:05  <Mathnerd314> it's simultaneous play
2010-11-10T19:03:27  <Mathnerd314> minimax only works for sequential games
2010-11-10T19:03:47  <demerzel> so you treat it like the enemy is about to go?
2010-11-10T19:03:48  <antimatroid1> pure max isn't minimax
2010-11-10T19:03:49  <sigh> Mathnerd314: yeah, it is an approximation
2010-11-10T19:03:50  <demerzel> it's not that different
2010-11-10T19:03:55  <antimatroid1> well, technically i guess it is
2010-11-10T19:04:04  <sigh> Mathnerd314: it's not necessarily wrong, it worked well enough for tron
2010-11-10T19:04:08  <demerzel> pure max is not minimax - it's not even maximin
2010-11-10T19:04:15  <demerzel> it's not even considering the enemy
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2010-11-10T19:04:26  <antimatroid1> Mathnerd314: you can get psne for 2 player zero sum games (simultaneous) with a variant of minimax :)
2010-11-10T19:04:31  <demerzel> it's greed in game theory terms i've learned
2010-11-10T19:04:45  <Mathnerd314> demerzel: depends on your evaluation function
2010-11-10T19:04:47  <antimatroid1> demerzel: you're still running "minimax", there's just no nodes from player 2
2010-11-10T19:04:52  <Prillicy> my bot is timing out on the first move and I don't know why, anyone want to take a look?
2010-11-10T19:05:08  <demerzel> antimatroid1: no, minimax by definition requires the other player
2010-11-10T19:05:11  <bhasker_> there is no minimization happening
2010-11-10T19:05:15  <demerzel> you are 'minimizing'
2010-11-10T19:05:18  <bhasker_> if you do only one ply
2010-11-10T19:05:19  <demerzel> yea what he said
2010-11-10T19:05:41  <bhasker_> with 1 ply you are basically scoring your move
2010-11-10T19:05:43  <bhasker_> thats about it
2010-11-10T19:05:47  <demerzel> Mathnerd314: i have been pure score with varying horizons forever i guarantee it's nowhere near minimax - doesn't even require a tree
2010-11-10T19:05:50  <bhasker_> and executing moves with best scores
2010-11-10T19:05:56  <demerzel> it's a lot easier ;)
2010-11-10T19:06:04  <demerzel> but i get spanked by real strategy bots
2010-11-10T19:06:19  <antimatroid1> i think it's like saying reals with + is a group
2010-11-10T19:06:27  <antimatroid1> it is, but you're not really covering everything
2010-11-10T19:06:39  <demerzel> i have no idea what that is referencing lol
2010-11-10T19:06:45  <antimatroid1> well you'
2010-11-10T19:06:58  <antimatroid1> re still doing minimax with one player (can run the same functions), you just aren't using it all
2010-11-10T19:07:11  <demerzel> what are you all going to do after this is over?  i've been working on this for like 2 months gonna be a huge vacuum
2010-11-10T19:07:12  <antimatroid1> and a group of the reals with + isn't covering the whole existence of . on them
2010-11-10T19:07:28  <antimatroid1> demerzal: return to life
2010-11-10T19:07:31  <demerzel> haha
2010-11-10T19:07:39  <demerzel> i think i'll set up a server or something before it's over
2010-11-10T19:07:41  <davidjliu> hello everybody
2010-11-10T19:07:49  <demerzel> maybe turn it into that robocoder thing if waterloo isn't pissy about it
2010-11-10T19:07:53  <sigh> davidjliu: hello
2010-11-10T19:08:21  <davidjliu> how're the bots coming along?
2010-11-10T19:08:56  <demerzel> problem with this contest is the bots are only really applicable to this i cna't think of any mainstream ai with defined point systems capture etc
2010-11-10T19:08:58  <demerzel> maybe a risk ai
2010-11-10T19:09:01  <antimatroid1> i just started a brand new one 2 days ago, so doTurn is still bare :)
2010-11-10T19:09:22  <antimatroid1> demerzel: how is that a problem?
2010-11-10T19:09:34  <demerzel> because when it's over i have code that does something irrelevant :(
2010-11-10T19:09:45  <demerzel> that i spent way too much time on lol
2010-11-10T19:09:48  <McLeopold> bhasker: it doesn't look good for you
2010-11-10T19:09:50  <davidjliu> antimatroid: how many complete rewrites have you done?
2010-11-10T19:09:53  <antimatroid1> all my code does irrelevant things
2010-11-10T19:10:09  <demerzel> haha not mine
2010-11-10T19:10:16  <antimatroid1> davidjilu: this is the second (first from my first) since the start from a bare starter package
2010-11-10T19:10:24  <demerzel> that's not bad ;)
2010-11-10T19:10:30  <demerzel> this is #5 in 3 languages lol
2010-11-10T19:10:31  <antimatroid1> i got rid of all that tokenize crap (yay string streams) and fixed up a whole bunch of other things
2010-11-10T19:13:51  <bhasker_> yea lost that one:(
2010-11-10T19:13:53  <McLeopold> Error323_: is gf87222e minimax?
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2010-11-10T19:16:24  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4272), george(4116), GreenTea(4088), bix0r4ever(4086), rsergio(4079), Accoun(4059), rs5147(4034), shangas(4025), dmj111(4025), hutabhu(4020)
2010-11-10T19:17:04  <Error323_> McLeopold: E323-17.0-6-g0ff9616
2010-11-10T19:17:19  <McLeopold> okay, so only one
2010-11-10T19:17:52  <antimatroid1> you people doing minimax, are you making future moves? and if so, how the hell do you resolve battles
2010-11-10T19:21:18  <davidjliu> a gutsy move at turn 4
2010-11-10T19:21:19  <davidjliu> http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=954814
2010-11-10T19:23:17  <McLeopold> you guys both do it twice at the same time
2010-11-10T19:24:17  <McLeopold> I guess you survived a little longer?
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2010-11-10T19:24:29  <davidjliu> yeah, I survived a bit longer
2010-11-10T19:24:34  <davidjliu> an example of running away before being attacked
2010-11-10T19:24:43  <davidjliu> I'm not sure of how my bot knew to run away that turn though...
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2010-11-10T19:25:22  <bhasker_> there starts my bots fall from grace, started going up against Accoun*
2010-11-10T19:25:24  <McLeopold> down 30, 4 away * 5 growth is 10 ships too few
2010-11-10T19:26:42  <davidjliu> I guess I assumed he'd attack me
2010-11-10T19:26:46  <davidjliu> hm, I don't remember coding that
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2010-11-10T19:27:44  <davidjliu> wait a moment... if I had reinforced back to my home planet near the end, would I have won?
2010-11-10T19:27:55  <McLeopold> probably not
2010-11-10T19:28:00  <McLeopold> let me analyze...
2010-11-10T19:28:57  <McLeopold> yes
2010-11-10T19:29:20  <McLeopold> at turn 13, all your fleets would have been there on the planet
2010-11-10T19:29:21  <bhasker_> mistake was at turn 12
2010-11-10T19:29:27  <bhasker_> you sent  7 ships to acquire a new neutral
2010-11-10T19:29:32  <bhasker_> when you were about to lose a 5 growth
2010-11-10T19:29:40  <McLeopold> but, he may have sent the additional 14 in that case
2010-11-10T19:30:05  <bhasker_> there was no need to acquire neutrals
2010-11-10T19:30:07  <bhasker_> at that turn
2010-11-10T19:30:16  <bhasker_> they were even and he would acquire 1 more extra
2010-11-10T19:30:18  <bhasker_> next turn
2010-11-10T19:30:22  <davidjliu> at turn 9 if I just started sending all of the ships from the 4 growth planet into th 5 growth I think it would've been safe?
2010-11-10T19:30:23  <bhasker_> so he should have launched those 7 at the enemy
2010-11-10T19:30:28  <bhasker_> yes
2010-11-10T19:30:39  <bhasker_> in fact if you had sent the 7
2010-11-10T19:30:41  <bhasker_> from the 4 growth
2010-11-10T19:30:42  <bhasker_> to the 5
2010-11-10T19:30:44  <bhasker_> you would be fine
2010-11-10T19:30:50  <bhasker_> instead of towards a 42 size neutral
2010-11-10T19:30:53  <bhasker_> which you can't acquire
2010-11-10T19:30:57  <davidjliu> yeah...
2010-11-10T19:30:58  <bhasker_> for quite a few turns
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2010-11-10T19:31:37  <demerzel> hay lavalamp you're my first post-stdin crisis game lol
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2010-11-10T19:32:31  <davidjliu> I think that the optimal strategy on that map may be to overexpand to where your main base isn't completely safe
2010-11-10T19:32:40  <davidjliu> and then do a base-switch thing if the enemy tried to take your base
2010-11-10T19:33:09  <demerzel> mcleopold while you're in an analytical mood tell me why my bot is dumb: http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=955040
2010-11-10T19:33:32  <demerzel> knowing that's set to pure greed that is - i know it's not optimal but can't pinpiont it
2010-11-10T19:33:54  <demerzel> kidna wanna get greed as good as i can before trying minimax
2010-11-10T19:33:56  <bhasker_> you are sending ships away
2010-11-10T19:34:01  <bhasker_> from planets which don't have free ships
2010-11-10T19:34:03  <bhasker_> really
2010-11-10T19:34:05  <McLeopold> you should send to a neutral unless you will take it
2010-11-10T19:34:06  <bhasker_> they have fleets incoming
2010-11-10T19:34:13  <bhasker_> and you send them out
2010-11-10T19:34:20  <bhasker_> and yes that, don't send to neutral unless you can take it
2010-11-10T19:34:25  <bhasker_> streaming ships is useless
2010-11-10T19:34:28  <McLeopold> um, shouldn't
2010-11-10T19:34:39  <demerzel> actually if you watch it never sends out enough to get conquered it just leaves nothing there
2010-11-10T19:35:06  <bhasker_> hmm it does send out more
2010-11-10T19:35:09  <demerzel> it's got the capacity to hold back exactly as many as needed for defense but it froze it
2010-11-10T19:35:12  <bhasker_> watch the top right planet
2010-11-10T19:35:13  <bhasker_> of yours
2010-11-10T19:35:21  <bhasker_> at turn 43
2010-11-10T19:35:24  <bhasker_> you send 16 ships out
2010-11-10T19:35:30  <McLeopold> bhasker_: I just royally sniped your bot
2010-11-10T19:35:31  <bhasker_> when there is a 28 size fleet incoming
2010-11-10T19:35:48  <bhasker_> :(
2010-11-10T19:35:55  <demerzel> hmm yea you're right - wonder if that's a fuckit
2010-11-10T19:36:12  <demerzel> it has defense code but if it can't get it there it might just be sending out whatever
2010-11-10T19:36:16  <sigh> a fuckit?
2010-11-10T19:36:18  <demerzel> ty
2010-11-10T19:36:29  <demerzel> as in 'fuckit i'm losing it anyway'
2010-11-10T19:36:37  <sigh> ahh
2010-11-10T19:36:44  <bhasker_> wow it got completely owned mcleopold
2010-11-10T19:36:45  <bhasker_> :(
2010-11-10T19:36:49  <bhasker_> sniped all 3 planets
2010-11-10T19:36:58  <demerzel> that's one thing any max bot will do very well
2010-11-10T19:37:00  <demerzel> snipe
2010-11-10T19:37:06  <McLeopold> and yet, I lose to philic
2010-11-10T19:37:08  <bhasker_> well two
2010-11-10T19:37:13  <McLeopold> O_o
2010-11-10T19:37:14  <demerzel> assuming you put a lower limit on arrival turn that is
2010-11-10T19:37:22  <bhasker_> 4 losses in a row
2010-11-10T19:37:24  <bhasker_> all to snipes
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2010-11-10T19:37:42  <davidjliu> ugh, my bot is apparently too slow for the official server
2010-11-10T19:39:26  <bhasker_> demerzel even if you are going to lose the planet
2010-11-10T19:39:30  <bhasker_> its better to keep your ships there i thin
2010-11-10T19:39:37  <bhasker_> it will slow down the incoming fleet
2010-11-10T19:39:42  <bhasker_> otherwise he gets the planet for free
2010-11-10T19:39:48  <bhasker_> and has abig fleet he can send at your planet
2010-11-10T19:40:05  <demerzel> bhasker_ i agree with you, it's def a bug
2010-11-10T19:41:36  <demerzel> i have some code that does a calc on how much enemy fleets can arrive and doesn't allow more than that amount to launch but it totally freezes it when the enemy has more :(
2010-11-10T19:41:41  <demerzel> i need dist code i guess
2010-11-10T19:42:18  <demerzel> the streaming was accidental but i'm having a hard time figuring out why if target a is no longer valuable / attainable why it is better to have launched one massive fleet at it rather than saving the maximum amount by stopping a stream to it
2010-11-10T19:42:49  <demerzel> so i've kept it for the time being
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2010-11-10T19:43:53  <McLeopold> demerzel: we are battling
2010-11-10T19:43:53  <demerzel> hahah hi AntBot i'm p sure you have a better growth algo than me so it will just roll over and die
2010-11-10T19:43:59  <demerzel> i beat somebody i've never heard of tho!
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2010-11-10T19:44:18  <McLeopold> -307?
2010-11-10T19:44:28  <demerzel> timeout, loss, win
2010-11-10T19:44:38  <demerzel> i usually have shitty elo cuz i test shit out on tcp haha
2010-11-10T19:44:50  <McLeopold> oh
2010-11-10T19:44:51  <demerzel> not to mention most of you are better than me
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2010-11-10T19:45:19  <McLeopold> you sent a long bomb at the beginning
2010-11-10T19:45:34  <McLeopold> http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=955196
2010-11-10T19:46:00  <demerzel> yea you can see me freeze
2010-11-10T19:46:06  <demerzel> what happened there is a snipe attempt
2010-11-10T19:46:31  <McLeopold> I think you need to look at what it takes to snipe a little better. :P
2010-11-10T19:46:43  <McLeopold> You expansion was just as fast
2010-11-10T19:46:52  <demerzel> nah look at our numbers
2010-11-10T19:46:55  <bhasker_> demerzel i had the same problem, you need to add in support from neutrals
2010-11-10T19:46:59  <bhasker_> that he may acquire in future
2010-11-10T19:47:01  <McLeopold> If you kept the 31, you would have been able to keep up
2010-11-10T19:47:05  <bhasker_> which can send ships
2010-11-10T19:47:06  <demerzel> you had almost 100 ship adv
2010-11-10T19:47:13  <bhasker_> so that you don't try such long shots
2010-11-10T19:47:20  <bhasker_> there is no way that a snipe like that will work
2010-11-10T19:47:27  <bhasker_> against even a half decent bot
2010-11-10T19:47:29  <demerzel> bhasker_ it may have just decided to try to overpower mcleopold and only managed to stream 2 turns
2010-11-10T19:47:40  <bhasker_> you sent at turn 2?
2010-11-10T19:47:42  <demerzel> it wasn't a sniep attempt looking at the log
2010-11-10T19:47:47  <bhasker_> hmm
2010-11-10T19:47:52  <demerzel> it was seriously going to try (with neutrals) to overpower what it currently knew mcleopold could get there
2010-11-10T19:48:05  <demerzel> at that turn, which obv grew exponentially
2010-11-10T19:48:21  <demerzel> i'm not sure hwo to stop that
2010-11-10T19:48:27  <demerzel> since it does consider his neutrals and mine
2010-11-10T19:48:54  <bhasker_> if you were looking at all neutrals
2010-11-10T19:48:58  <bhasker_> there is no way you can get more ships tehre
2010-11-10T19:49:02  <bhasker_> before mcleopold can reinforce
2010-11-10T19:49:27  <demerzel> at that turn no but when it launched it thought so
2010-11-10T19:49:40  <demerzel> it's 4-ply so it may have been turn 20 something it was thinking of
2010-11-10T19:50:18  <demerzel> hmm gonna add a heurhack in haha
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2010-11-10T19:54:13  <demerzel> who is dimwit isn't that somebody's UTC
2010-11-10T19:55:11  <bhasker_> phreeza i think
2010-11-10T19:57:02  <demerzel> it is excruciatingly slow lol
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2010-11-10T20:03:24  <Mathnerd314> demerzel: if http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=955322, then it's more the map than the bot
2010-11-10T20:03:59  <demerzel> what does that mean
2010-11-10T20:04:30  <Mathnerd314> the map is a huge map, with widely-spaced planets
2010-11-10T20:05:01  <demerzel> oh my bot sucks compared to the guys on tcp right now - this one i lost cuz i have no dist http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=955436
2010-11-10T20:05:02  <Mathnerd314> so if you were talking about that game, I was explaining it
2010-11-10T20:05:12  <demerzel> oh no the one i was talking about was mcleopold
2010-11-10T20:06:00  <demerzel> well no that one i lost cuz i went for a neutral over the enemy :(  lol
2010-11-10T20:06:51  <demerzel> does the tcp score not count ships or something there's something off abouti t
2010-11-10T20:07:02  <demerzel> no it has to hmm must be my brain lol
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2010-11-10T20:08:25  <demerzel> damn i guess i gotta put together a move queue i'm just too scattered
2010-11-10T20:08:55  <antimatroid1> i'm trying to work specifics out with paper
2010-11-10T20:09:01  <antimatroid1> it's so damn complicated
2010-11-10T20:13:43  <Mathnerd314> agreed. if only there was some way to get a computer to do it.
2010-11-10T20:16:24  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4299), george(4125), GreenTea(4102), bix0r4ever(4091), rsergio(4076), Accoun(4061), rs5147(4043), dmj111(4041), hutabhu(4036), cfaftw(4034)
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2010-11-10T20:19:06  *** amstan_ is now known as amstan
2010-11-10T20:19:18  <McLeopold> check out this game!
2010-11-10T20:19:28  <McLeopold> http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=955611
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2010-11-10T20:20:49  <McLeopold> anybody?
2010-11-10T20:22:08  <McLeopold> :(
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2010-11-10T20:44:55  <antimatroid1> hmmm, how about this idea for runnig final tournament... incrementally freeze the bottom half of the rankings until you get down to 2 bots playing it out for the win
2010-11-10T20:45:03  <antimatroid1> although count all games that have run towards rankings
2010-11-10T20:46:24  <antimatroid1> the idea being that hopefully the better your bot actually is, the more accurate the ranking you end up with
2010-11-10T20:46:48  <antimatroid1> would also make the final days of the comp quite interesting with a live leaderboard
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2010-11-10T20:55:44  <davidjliu> antimatroid1: I like it. Would you suggest keeping results over freezings?
2010-11-10T21:16:25  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4269), george(4114), GreenTea(4096), rsergio(4066), bix0r4ever(4062), dmj111(4048), Accoun(4045), Raschi(4030), rs5147(4024), felixcoto(4017)
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2010-11-10T21:22:16  <antimatroid1> davidjliu: what do you mean by keeping results over freezing?
2010-11-10T21:22:43  <antimatroid1> the idea would be that once your in the frozen region, that's your final place in the contest
2010-11-10T21:23:05  <davidjliu> as in, when you freeze the bottom half, whether or not you should keep the results of games from teams in the top half against the bottom half for determining ranks in the top half
2010-11-10T21:23:26  <antimatroid1> yeah, i think that'd be best
2010-11-10T21:24:15  <antimatroid1> keep all results, just don't allocate new games to players in the frozen region
2010-11-10T21:26:51  <antimatroid1> i'm going to send an email around and see if they bite at all
2010-11-10T21:34:46  <antimatroid1> hmmm, there's be a complication in keeping old rankings
2010-11-10T21:35:19  <antimatroid1> as the rankings above the top half change, the rankings in the bottom half are meant to change to account for the change in rankings
2010-11-10T21:35:28  <antimatroid1> perhaps one would have to just clean the slate on games each round
2010-11-10T21:37:39  <davidjliu> heh, yeah, that was one of the issues I was thinking of... but on the other hand, I'm not sure if the final 1 v 2 matchup should just consist of games between 1 and 2
2010-11-10T21:38:09  <davidjliu> because the game isn't transitive and 2 might beat 1 but lose to a lot of other people
2010-11-10T21:38:10  <antimatroid1> davidjliu: i think that idea sucks now, what about a kind of merge sort, every iteration, split the groups in half, till you have groups of about 25-50, then play that for a good day
2010-11-10T21:38:16  <antimatroid1> then that gives final rankings?
2010-11-10T21:40:02  <davidjliu> I'd say that having final groups of size 25-ish is a much better idea than having final groups of size 2, but I think it'd still be a good idea to have more games to accurately determine rankings near the top
2010-11-10T21:40:27  <antimatroid1> run the contest longer
2010-11-10T21:40:48  <davidjliu> there are 4 days according to the website...
2010-11-10T21:42:09  <antimatroid1> okay, i'm going to start a discussion email on the way to get the best possible rankings
2010-11-10T21:42:18  <davidjliu> I'd be more in support of a system where you keep dividing in half except having the last section be the top 25
2010-11-10T21:43:13  <davidjliu> and throw out the old games in consideration of new ranks
2010-11-10T21:43:16  <antimatroid1> so would i personally (hoping i'll be up there), but it may be unfair on other people
2010-11-10T21:43:24  <antimatroid1> who have also posibly spent quite a bit of time working on their bot
2010-11-10T21:45:17  <davidjliu> and maybe there will be enough games to keep the server running for everybody, seeing as they should be able to put up a lot of cloud servers for the official contest period
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2010-11-10T22:10:57  <antimatroid1> davidjliu: if you can be bothered reading a wall of text, anything you would add before i send this out?
2010-11-10T22:11:03  <antimatroid1> http://codepad.org/YFqoGqBJ
2010-11-10T22:11:11  <antimatroid1> sorry for the rank formatting, i copied it from gmail
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2010-11-10T22:12:41  <antimatroid1> some of the dot points weren't quite finished :P
2010-11-10T22:16:26  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4259), george(4106), GreenTea(4097), rsergio(4074), bix0r4ever(4055), dmj111(4051), Accoun(4046), rs5147(4046), hutabhu(4036), cfaftw(4025)
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2010-11-10T22:32:10  <davidjliu> Hm.. one thing I think about "mergesort" (or I guess anti-mergesort) is that you would have a lot of "lost" games, or games that have no bearing on final results
2010-11-10T22:35:51  <antimatroid1> same goes with rounds
2010-11-10T22:36:13  <antimatroid1> i think as is rankings aren't independent of the order of which one wins though
2010-11-10T22:36:17  <antimatroid1> does that make sense?
2010-11-10T22:36:45  <antimatroid1> ideally one would split it up such that bots have at least a day in the final groups playing it out
2010-11-10T22:41:58  <krokkrok> Idealizing the priority of the rank list as a type of mergesort is not very sound.  The whole concept of 'bots with similar ranks' has no meaning until..the rank is determined.
2010-11-10T22:43:06  <davidjliu> There should probably be some parameter in the ranking script that considers in some way uncertainty in rank and uses that to determine which bot to play against
2010-11-10T22:43:13  <davidjliu> er, in the matching script
2010-11-10T22:43:50  <krokkrok> I think rank can only be determined by playing every bot against every other, and the winner is the one with the most total wins.  Every bot must play every other bot or the winner will be determined by random bias in the elo algorithm.  Since this would take too long, it would probably be sufficient to take the top 100 bots and run them all against each other
2010-11-10T22:48:50  <antimatroid1> krokkrok: then use the rounds method
2010-11-10T22:48:56  <antimatroid1> with the final round being a top x round robin
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2010-11-10T23:07:00  <krokkrok> i dont understand the 'freeze' part ,or even the rounds part....anything outside of all vs all adds bias...
2010-11-10T23:09:00  <krokkrok> I think the top 100 bots (as determined by ELO) could do all opponents on several  maps
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2010-11-10T23:16:26  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4242), george(4095), _iouri_(4083), GreenTea(4079), rsergio(4068), dmj111(4043), bix0r4ever(4038), Accoun(4017), Raschi(4015), rs5147(4014)
2010-11-10T23:18:12  <dmj111> I think this was the plan at one point... but what about running a swiss tournament over and over again.  with less than 8096 players, each bot would play <= 13 games per round.  The top bots would have to play lower bots, at least the first few rounds, but the last few rounds, everyone would be partitioned pretty good.
2010-11-10T23:18:59  <dmj111> Then, on the next iteration, use the ratings as the seeding order for the next swiss tourney.    Maybe the last day (or half), cut the field down, but spend most of the 4 days letting everyone play.
2010-11-10T23:19:41  <antimatroid1> dmj111: that's what i would like to see
2010-11-10T23:20:03  <antimatroid1> i don't think it's reasonable to cut bots off too early, but it would be nice to get a decent ordering of the top x bots
2010-11-10T23:21:10  <dmj111> yeah.  I mean, that and any bot _could_ lose to any other.  But surely, most of the time, everyone should get games.
2010-11-10T23:21:32  <dmj111> i know that was in the issue tracker, but I didn't look it up before posting.  post first, think later...
2010-11-10T23:21:53  <antimatroid1> that's my approach to life
2010-11-10T23:21:55  <antimatroid1> do first, think later
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2010-11-10T23:25:27  <dmj111> that plan often works.    So, congrats on finishing your latest round of school work!
2010-11-10T23:27:32  <antimatroid1> cheers, i have no idea how i got through this last semester with the amount of time i spent on ai aha
2010-11-10T23:28:06  <Zannick> we commend you for it, though
2010-11-10T23:28:27  <antimatroid1> i have a new bot coming in a few days :)
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2010-11-10T23:28:33  <antimatroid1> i started from a fresh starter pack
2010-11-10T23:28:45  <dmj111> fun.  Still c++?
2010-11-10T23:28:48  <antimatroid1> yep
2010-11-10T23:29:29  <antimatroid1> i gave up on minimax though
2010-11-10T23:29:36  <antimatroid1> i'm doing it entirely heuristic based
2010-11-10T23:29:50  <dmj111> I have been a fan of that approach.
2010-11-10T23:30:27  <antimatroid1> i would do minimax, except i can't do resolutions without having multiple queues being processed at every single resolution
2010-11-10T23:31:06  <antimatroid1> doing that for every future state of every planet for every node just isn't going to work i don't think
2010-11-10T23:31:51  <krokkrok> if you could do minimax i'd think you win easy hehe
2010-11-10T23:32:14  <antimatroid1> no, minimax is easy to implement, implementing it well is the hard part
2010-11-10T23:32:31  <krokkrok> getting it to run in 2 seconds thats the hard part i think ?
2010-11-10T23:32:41  <antimatroid1> i have a bot that can do minimax on both simultaneous and extensive games, it just can't resolve stuff properly
2010-11-10T23:32:45  <antimatroid1> 1 second
2010-11-10T23:32:57  <dmj111> krokkrok: that, and avoiding bugs.
2010-11-10T23:33:22  <sigh> dmj111: are you still heuristic?
2010-11-10T23:34:43  <dmj111> my official bot definitely is.  I have been trying to do a 1ply lookahead type thing.  But it still uses my heuristics for both players.
2010-11-10T23:34:44  <antimatroid1> my gut feeling atm is top bots are going to end up being heuristic ones, but i could be wrong
2010-11-10T23:35:07  <antimatroid1> my gut feeling == best guess
2010-11-10T23:35:16  <antimatroid1> i'm not really a person of "gut feelings"
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2010-11-10T23:35:28  <sigh> i see
2010-11-10T23:36:26  <dmj111> antimatroid1: i have the same gut feeling.  of course, whatever bocsimacko is doing may just throw a wrench in the whole thing.
2010-11-10T23:37:05  <antimatroid1> i'm hoping my new bot will beat him, but so is everyone i guess
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2010-11-10T23:37:49  <antimatroid1> i am not adding any stupid hacks/short cuts this time, i'll be done once i resolve everything :)
2010-11-10T23:38:04  <krokkrok> what is bocsimacko doing...?
2010-11-10T23:38:11  <antimatroid1> hard to say exactly
2010-11-10T23:38:23  <antimatroid1> he has said some kind of one ply minimax at one point
2010-11-10T23:38:26  <dmj111> yeah... if I only knew, i probably wouldn't share.
2010-11-10T23:38:28  <dmj111> :)
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2010-11-10T23:38:47  <krokkrok> i have one guess myself. im to lazy to even try it though
2010-11-10T23:38:48  <decipher> hey if any one not busy i have a question
2010-11-10T23:38:55  <antimatroid1> shoot
2010-11-10T23:39:52  * Zannick points at topic "don't ask to ask" :)
2010-11-10T23:40:00  <dmj111> bang
2010-11-10T23:40:02  <sigh> he didn't ask, he made a statement
2010-11-10T23:40:03  <antimatroid1> that topic is unclear
2010-11-10T23:40:06  <decipher> when i organize the map into an array from 0-22 using getplanet 0-22 i notice a pattern in terms of planet owned from start and how the neutral planets are positioned, but i can put together what the trick behind the array
2010-11-10T23:40:10  <Zannick> in any case
2010-11-10T23:40:27  <Zannick> ah, i can answer this
2010-11-10T23:40:38  <antimatroid1> i can't even understand that :|
2010-11-10T23:40:40  <decipher> i know theres something fishy bout it
2010-11-10T23:40:45  <Zannick> the order of planet ids comes from the map generator, so it's always the same
2010-11-10T23:40:51  <Zannick> 0 is the central planet, and always neutral
2010-11-10T23:40:55  <decipher> based on any distance factor
2010-11-10T23:40:59  <decipher> yeah
2010-11-10T23:41:00  <Zannick> 1 is player 1's planet, 2 is player 2's
2010-11-10T23:41:03  <decipher> i noticed that
2010-11-10T23:41:05  <decipher> yep
2010-11-10T23:41:08  <Zannick> (though you might be player 2)
2010-11-10T23:41:15  <decipher> oh yeah
2010-11-10T23:41:21  <antimatroid1> did we ever get any maps that aren't just symmetric in a 1:1 sense?
2010-11-10T23:41:30  <decipher> no
2010-11-10T23:41:31  <Zannick> and 2x+1 and 2x+2 are mirrors of each other across the center planet
2010-11-10T23:41:34  <decipher> un fair that way
2010-11-10T23:41:44  <decipher> thank you so much zannick
2010-11-10T23:41:44  <Zannick> antimatroid1: the reason for that is the map generator is symmetric
2010-11-10T23:41:49  <decipher> this is the difference
2010-11-10T23:42:07  <sigh> antimatroid1: what do you mean by 1:1 sense?
2010-11-10T23:42:12  <antimatroid1> you can have maps symmetric across three regions and the game still be symmetric
2010-11-10T23:42:16  <antimatroid1> or n regions
2010-11-10T23:42:22  <sigh> oh, no
2010-11-10T23:42:30  <antimatroid1> that would be cool
2010-11-10T23:42:35  <Zannick> you can implement a map generator that does that
2010-11-10T23:42:37  <sigh> someone made one (I think it was bhasker?) but it is not the official
2010-11-10T23:42:42  <decipher> so i need an algorithm to be able to grab the closest planets to me from the central location then go out?
2010-11-10T23:42:44  <Zannick> but you would need sine and cosin
2010-11-10T23:42:48  <Zannick> cosine *
2010-11-10T23:42:52  <antimatroid1> z++ has that in stl :P
2010-11-10T23:42:54  <antimatroid1> c++*
2010-11-10T23:43:19  <Zannick> well, the map generator is python, and math has those, but yes it is possible, just not done
2010-11-10T23:43:22  <krokkrok> hey, how come there is not z++ starter bot??
2010-11-10T23:43:36  <antimatroid1> z++ is a language?, but because no one wrote one
2010-11-10T23:43:38  <Zannick> insufficient interest, possibly
2010-11-10T23:43:50  <Zannick> same reason there's no brainfuck starter bot
2010-11-10T23:44:01  <Zannick> also we don't support that language
2010-11-10T23:44:03  <sigh> this needs ot be remedied
2010-11-10T23:44:08  <antimatroid1> i wanted to call my game theory library games++ but it's already a website
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2010-11-10T23:44:40  <krokkrok> games-+, its minimax
2010-11-10T23:44:47  <Zannick> first person to implement a bot in malbolge gets a special prize
2010-11-10T23:44:58  <dmj111> besides insanity?
2010-11-10T23:45:02  <antimatroid1> nah, I am writing a general game theory librar for all sorts of classes of games
2010-11-10T23:45:30  * antimatroid1 goes looking for that map generator
2010-11-10T23:46:20  <decipher> hey zannick can i use the array to find the closest planets to me and know exactly which planets to attack of the start before i get to the center, or do i need to create loops and use distance method to find the difference?
2010-11-10T23:46:26  <Zannick> http://code.google.com/p/ai-contest/source/browse/trunk/planet_wars/backend/map_generator.py
2010-11-10T23:46:49  <Zannick> decipher: the order of the planets has no relation to the distances
2010-11-10T23:47:58  <antimatroid1> gah, i don't know python, i'm going to just write my own generator
2010-11-10T23:48:02  <antimatroid1> i'll share it once i'm done
2010-11-10T23:48:12  <Zannick> heh
2010-11-10T23:48:29  <krokkrok> my suggestion is to write your code as simple and clearly as possible.  optimizing simple stuff is not so good given only 2 weeks of developement left
2010-11-10T23:48:46  <sigh_> antimatroid1: python is not very hard
2010-11-10T23:48:50  *** sigh_ is now known as sigh
2010-11-10T23:49:10  <antimatroid1> yeah, i want to write a mega map maker anyway
2010-11-10T23:49:23  <sigh> it'll be faster in python
2010-11-10T23:49:32  <sigh> (to write)
2010-11-10T23:49:51  <antimatroid1> not for me to learn as well, it'll take like an hour max
2010-11-10T23:50:13  <antimatroid1> are coords to be strictly non negative (or postive?)>
2010-11-10T23:50:29  <antimatroid1> ie. do i have to translate crap?
2010-11-10T23:50:33  <dmj111> antimatroid1: they seem to be, but I don't think it should matter.
2010-11-10T23:50:49  <Zannick> the coords are strictly nonnegative for the visualizer.
2010-11-10T23:50:52  <sigh> yes, coordinates have to be translated into french
2010-11-10T23:50:54  <dmj111> ahhhh.
2010-11-10T23:51:11  <Zannick> it isn't hard to translate them all
2010-11-10T23:51:18  <antimatroid1> i know, but it's extra lines
2010-11-10T23:51:22  <Zannick> only a few :P
2010-11-10T23:51:25  <antimatroid1> i know
2010-11-10T23:51:35  <Zannick> find the min coords, subtract
2010-11-10T23:51:50  <Zannick> python is pseudocode
2010-11-10T23:52:01  <dmj111> antimatroid1: and you have copious amounts of free time now, right ? :)
2010-11-10T23:52:18  <antimatroid1> dmj111: nothing but this to do :)
2010-11-10T23:52:21  * dmj111 would like to have a week or two off of work
2010-11-10T23:52:43  <Zannick> well, thanksgiving is later this month
2010-11-10T23:53:03  <krokkrok> do you mean, harvest festival?
2010-11-10T23:53:13  * dmj111 would like a week or two off of work when the kids are in school :)
2010-11-10T23:53:47  <Zannick> whatever, i get two days off and i'm taking three others for vacation
2010-11-10T23:54:35  <krokkrok> i took a day off in 2001, never went back. teehee
2010-11-10T23:55:11  <sigh> hmm... never thought of taking some time off... I've got like 27 days of leave accrued
2010-11-10T23:55:21  <Zannick> geez
2010-11-10T23:55:35  <antimatroid1> i've been banking on these almost three weeks the whole time
2010-11-10T23:55:59  <Zannick> i would like, not work on thursdays for a few months
2010-11-10T23:56:04  <sigh> haha
2010-11-10T23:56:19  <antimatroid1> thursdays?
2010-11-10T23:56:25  <antimatroid1> screw that, i'd be making it a long weekend
2010-11-10T23:56:50  <Zannick> or if i was really lazy, tuesdays and thursdays
2010-11-10T23:57:00  <Zannick> screw three days weekends
2010-11-10T23:57:07  <Zannick> i'll take three weekends
2010-11-10T23:58:37  <antimatroid1> how do i check planets aren't within 1 distance of another? (is there a better way than just checking all of them?)
2010-11-10T23:58:45  <antimatroid1> i guess not
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