2010-11-11T00:01:45  <McLeopold> I can't tell if this is good or bad? http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=958489
2010-11-11T00:02:46  <Zannick> antimatroid1: the map generator tests each planet as it places it
2010-11-11T00:03:09  <antimatroid1> hmmm, there are a number of different ways i could do summetries, should i make a bunch of generators?
2010-11-11T00:03:18  <antimatroid1> should i draw some examples?
2010-11-11T00:03:34  <McLeopold> do you have a white board?
2010-11-11T00:04:14  <antimatroid1> i have paint
2010-11-11T00:04:29  <dmj111> McLeopold: that is an interesting game.  which part are you asking about?
2010-11-11T00:04:46  <McLeopold> well, i survived which is good
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2010-11-11T00:04:58  <McLeopold> but, it think it was a poor game on my part
2010-11-11T00:05:25  <dmj111> yes.  the end looked a little funny, but if you are looking for the 200th turn, maybe it knew it had it won?
2010-11-11T00:05:33  <krokkrok> nah, it was a great game! no mistakes at all. I think its good enough. you can go watch TV now
2010-11-11T00:05:40  <McLeopold> I don't look for turn 200
2010-11-11T00:05:46  <dmj111> (the yes was for " you won which is good.")
2010-11-11T00:06:40  <McLeopold> I have an urge to watch tv...
2010-11-11T00:06:46  <dmj111> i like the funneling you are doing.  mine is too simplistic.
2010-11-11T00:06:55  <McLeopold> it was crazy
2010-11-11T00:07:01  <McLeopold> I got to tone it down some
2010-11-11T00:09:17  <McLeopold> I'm sending stuff backwards and crossing paths
2010-11-11T00:09:31  <McLeopold> so, which part did you like?
2010-11-11T00:09:40  <antimatroid1> http://imgur.com/B6QND.png just shows a couple of examples
2010-11-11T00:09:47  <antimatroid1> but there are lots of different possible symmetries
2010-11-11T00:10:02  <antimatroid1> oh wait, the bottom one was the same aha
2010-11-11T00:10:13  <antimatroid1> flip the blue ones for the bottom
2010-11-11T00:10:33  <dmj111> McLeopold: i have been thinking about working at pushing stuff from the back to support the front planets under attack, allowing the front to launch.  as of yet, I don't do anythin like that.
2010-11-11T00:10:44  <antimatroid1> and then the other portions don't need to be symmetric with the sections starting with players planets etc.
2010-11-11T00:10:46  <dmj111> allowing the front to launch *more*.
2010-11-11T00:11:01  <Zannick> antimatroid1: that's really still just two symmetries
2010-11-11T00:11:06  <antimatroid1> dmj111: i am halfway through writing such a function :P
2010-11-11T00:11:16  <antimatroid1> Zannick: a couple of examples :P
2010-11-11T00:11:23  <Zannick> the left ones are horizontal symmetry, and the other two are rotational
2010-11-11T00:11:23  <dmj111> ahhh good.  i didn't spill the beans then.
2010-11-11T00:12:15  <McLeopold> yeah, I solved that awhile ago
2010-11-11T00:12:23  <dmj111> McLeopold: this is more aesthetic, but I liked all of the neutrals being captured on turn 15.
2010-11-11T00:12:34  <McLeopold> It's picking good planets to attack that I have trouble with.
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2010-11-11T00:12:50  <sigh> dmj111: huh? what do you mean you don't send ships from the back?
2010-11-11T00:13:07  <sigh> it looks like you do?
2010-11-11T00:13:16  <dmj111> sigh: I do, but I attack from the back first, then move ships to the front after I don't have anything to attack.
2010-11-11T00:13:40  <dmj111> But, I always keep enough on a planet to keep from losing it to incoming ships, if I have enough to start with.
2010-11-11T00:13:48  <sigh> oh, i see what you mean
2010-11-11T00:14:09  <antimatroid1> dmj111: the only advantage to not doing that is informational
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2010-11-11T00:14:33  <antimatroid1> wait, no it's not
2010-11-11T00:14:36  <antimatroid1> nevermind
2010-11-11T00:14:53  <antimatroid1> i was doing it just for the informational advantage, but i think it helps otherwise too
2010-11-11T00:16:03  <McLeopold> dmj111: hoping for a match!
2010-11-11T00:16:04  <sigh> only way is to try it and see
2010-11-11T00:16:27  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4221), _iouri_(4088), george(4081), GreenTea(4076), dmj111(4049), rsergio(4043), felixcoto(4030), bix0r4ever(4028), Accoun(4017), rs5147(4016)
2010-11-11T00:16:36  <McLeopold> maybe if we syncronize the start time, well have better luck matching up?
2010-11-11T00:17:52  <dmj111> I'll give it a try.
2010-11-11T00:18:11  <dmj111> I have a game at the moment, I kill my script after its over.
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2010-11-11T00:18:13  <McLeopold> I'm using JBotManager, so I can hit a button
2010-11-11T00:18:19  <sigh> make two really crap bots so their rank is like -999... then put your actual bots in and they'll play for sure :P
2010-11-11T00:18:49  <antimatroid1> why not just play them under two new names? :P
2010-11-11T00:18:52  <McLeopold> sigh: it think it has more to do with timing
2010-11-11T00:18:53  <dmj111> yep.
2010-11-11T00:19:22  <dmj111> i'm tired.. not sure who I am agreeing with there :)
2010-11-11T00:19:40  <McLeopold> east coast?
2010-11-11T00:20:12  <McLeopold> just say when...
2010-11-11T00:20:12  <dmj111> yes.  stayed up too late last night too, so I am going to have to crash soon.
2010-11-11T00:20:25  <McLeopold> button on standby
2010-11-11T00:21:14  <dmj111> ok.....  on your mark.
2010-11-11T00:21:18  <dmj111> now
2010-11-11T00:21:29  <McLeopold> yes
2010-11-11T00:21:30  <dmj111> ha!
2010-11-11T00:22:15  <McLeopold> it's not looking good
2010-11-11T00:22:38  <antimatroid1> hmmm, i'm just going to do the original different symmetry i intended, too much effort to randomise between types of symmetry
2010-11-11T00:22:45  <dmj111> i just seen the numbers, so I wasn't sure there for a while.
2010-11-11T00:22:53  <dmj111> i just saw...
2010-11-11T00:23:03  <dmj111> want to try again?
2010-11-11T00:23:06  <McLeopold> yep
2010-11-11T00:23:36  <dmj111> ok... in a few seconds.
2010-11-11T00:23:42  <dmj111> now
2010-11-11T00:23:53  <McLeopold> 2 in a row
2010-11-11T00:24:02  <dmj111> we are like pros at this.
2010-11-11T00:24:20  <McLeopold> holy crap, why is my bot doing that!
2010-11-11T00:24:40  <McLeopold> it take a planet down to 4 ships and wraps it up in a bow for you!
2010-11-11T00:24:55  <McLeopold> merry christmas! >:(
2010-11-11T00:24:57  <dmj111> i appreciate it :/
2010-11-11T00:25:12  <Zannick> for some reason my bot does that sometimes
2010-11-11T00:25:14  <McLeopold> oh wait...
2010-11-11T00:25:21  <McLeopold> I forgot a command line switch...
2010-11-11T00:25:27  <Zannick> maybe not all the way to 4
2010-11-11T00:25:33  <antimatroid1> McLeopold: I designate you as official irc commentator during the final contest
2010-11-11T00:25:37  <Zannick> but it will hit the planet a little and then snipe from the enemy >.>
2010-11-11T00:25:59  <McLeopold> I'll get some cuss words on hot keys...
2010-11-11T00:26:30  <McLeopold> dmj111: 1 more, but let me turn off the suck switch.
2010-11-11T00:26:30  <dmj111> i'm heading to sleep.  one more time (with the right switches?)
2010-11-11T00:26:36  <McLeopold> hold on
2010-11-11T00:26:39  <dmj111> ha.  let me know when you are ready.
2010-11-11T00:27:23  <McLeopold> okay, on standby
2010-11-11T00:27:36  <dmj111> ok.  3 ... 2.
2010-11-11T00:27:38  <dmj111> go
2010-11-11T00:27:43  <dmj111> crap
2010-11-11T00:27:56  <McLeopold> I got shampooed
2010-11-11T00:28:07  <dmj111> at least you will be clean.
2010-11-11T00:29:23  <McLeopold> okay, ready to try again, but my elo is dropping...
2010-11-11T00:29:42  <dmj111> i'm going to lose to a 106 elo here in a second.
2010-11-11T00:29:58  <McLeopold> I lost to philic, at 1 elo earlier
2010-11-11T00:30:13  <McLeopold> I still have a major bug I'm not sure how to solve yet.
2010-11-11T00:30:21  <dmj111> mine is not consistent.  i'll give the go in 5 seconds.
2010-11-11T00:30:24  <McLeopold> It depends on the map type when it bites me.
2010-11-11T00:30:32  <dmj111> go
2010-11-11T00:30:38  <McLeopold> oldman
2010-11-11T00:30:58  <dmj111> that is obligatory.
2010-11-11T00:31:00  <McLeopold> at least I'm going to win this
2010-11-11T00:31:10  <McLeopold> no, that's shampoo
2010-11-11T00:31:42  <McLeopold> he's pretty high up there too
2010-11-11T00:31:50  <McLeopold> sound thrashing
2010-11-11T00:32:04  <dmj111> mines almost done.
2010-11-11T00:32:16  <dmj111> i can try one more if you want.
2010-11-11T00:32:23  <McLeopold> just one more match
2010-11-11T00:32:29  <dmj111> ok.
2010-11-11T00:32:33  <dmj111> ready in 5 seconds?
2010-11-11T00:32:36  <McLeopold> between us
2010-11-11T00:32:40  <McLeopold> yes, just say go
2010-11-11T00:32:42  <dmj111> go
2010-11-11T00:32:48  <McLeopold> arrg
2010-11-11T00:33:25  <sigh> this is amusing
2010-11-11T00:33:30  <McLeopold> I might take down accoun now
2010-11-11T00:33:41  <McLeopold> nope
2010-11-11T00:33:42  <dmj111> i have him too.   i'm going to lose mine though.
2010-11-11T00:33:52  <dmj111> badly.
2010-11-11T00:34:21  <McLeopold> oh good, just gave him a 67, snipe for 5 opportunity
2010-11-11T00:34:34  <McLeopold> that's my bug, I gotta fix that
2010-11-11T00:34:52  <dmj111> ok.  one more try.  then I must pass out.  We had thanksgiving lunch at work today, so on top of working on this contest all the time, I had a bunch of turkey today.
2010-11-11T00:34:55  <McLeopold> now he's toying with me
2010-11-11T00:35:13  <McLeopold> he's just poking my planets
2010-11-11T00:35:25  <McLeopold> okay, ready
2010-11-11T00:35:33  <dmj111> ok ... 5 seconds.
2010-11-11T00:35:39  <dmj111> go
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2010-11-11T00:35:50  <dmj111> do.
2010-11-11T00:35:52  <dmj111> doh.
2010-11-11T00:35:59  <McLeopold> we should have wrote that peer to peer client
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2010-11-11T00:36:11  <McLeopold> I got a -248 elo guy
2010-11-11T00:36:13  <McLeopold> done
2010-11-11T00:36:41  <McLeopold> good night all
2010-11-11T00:36:45  <dmj111> later!
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2010-11-11T01:16:27  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4236), george(4086), dmj111(4054), GreenTea(4048), rsergio(4035), rs5147(4033), felixcoto(4022), bix0r4ever(4022), _iouri_(4019), Accoun(4013)
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2010-11-11T01:51:54  <antimatroid1> hmmm, there is only two types of symmetry aye
2010-11-11T01:52:07  <antimatroid1> i can switch between that easily enough
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2010-11-11T02:09:33  <rabidus> what do you mean
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2010-11-11T02:14:19  <antimatroid1> there are two ways to generate all possible 2 player symmetric maps randomly,
2010-11-11T02:14:19  <antimatroid1> pick both players theta (rotation from one of the axis) and radius the same
2010-11-11T02:14:19  <antimatroid1> then for each neutral, pick theta and radius
2010-11-11T02:14:19  <antimatroid1> 1 neutral is (r, (ourTheta+theta)%360) the other is either
2010-11-11T02:14:19  <antimatroid1> (r, (theirTheta+theta)%360)  or (r, abs(theirTheta-theta)%360))
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2010-11-11T02:16:27  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4227), george(4076), dmj111(4054), GreenTea(4040), rs5147(4028), rsergio(4018), felixcoto(4015), bix0r4ever(4013), _iouri_(4010), Accoun(4002)
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2010-11-11T03:16:27  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4227), george(4076), dmj111(4054), GreenTea(4040), rs5147(4028), rsergio(4018), felixcoto(4015), bix0r4ever(4013), _iouri_(4010), Accoun(4002)
2010-11-11T03:19:48  <antimatroid1> not too long off having this map generator done, i think it should theoretically be generating random maps from the set of all possible 2 player symmetric maps with specified parameters about maps
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2010-11-11T03:49:36  <antimatroid1> what's the easiest way to convert an integer to a string?
2010-11-11T03:49:40  <antimatroid1> in c++
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2010-11-11T04:05:48  <antimatroid1> they don't look like they're coming out symmetrically :|
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2010-11-11T04:15:36  <antimatroid1> hmm, what would be a good test for a map to be symmetric?
2010-11-11T04:16:27  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4227), george(4076), dmj111(4054), GreenTea(4040), rs5147(4028), rsergio(4018), felixcoto(4015), bix0r4ever(4013), _iouri_(4010), Accoun(4002)
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2010-11-11T04:19:05  <rabidus> *sniff*
2010-11-11T04:19:46  <antimatroid1> rabidus:?
2010-11-11T04:19:53  <antimatroid1> i almost have this generator done
2010-11-11T04:19:56  <antimatroid1> the maps are much cooler
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2010-11-11T04:21:10  <rabidus> i was thinking today a planet wars game where planets moves
2010-11-11T04:21:22  <rabidus> just a bit more realistic
2010-11-11T04:22:11  <antimatroid1> haha, fuck everything about that
2010-11-11T04:22:17  <antimatroid1> want to do me a favour?
2010-11-11T04:22:18  <antimatroid1> http://codepad.org/g7KPgLCr
2010-11-11T04:22:26  <antimatroid1> run that map, does it look properly symmetric to you?
2010-11-11T04:23:09  <rabidus> sry, i'm on work
2010-11-11T04:23:18  <antimatroid1> ahh fair enough
2010-11-11T04:23:20  <antimatroid1> sigh:!
2010-11-11T04:23:32  <antimatroid1> isn't here
2010-11-11T04:23:41  <antimatroid1> bhasker: !
2010-11-11T04:23:53  <antimatroid1> Error323_:!
2010-11-11T04:24:03  <rabidus> :(
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2010-11-11T04:28:26  <antimatroid1> gah, i keep getting some nonsymmetric maps anyway
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2010-11-11T05:08:35  <decipher> anyone else having trouble uploading?
2010-11-11T05:13:27  <antimatroid1> wtf, it wont output an integer to file correctly now :|
2010-11-11T05:14:17  <decipher> what wont.. my program doesnt do that and it still wont let it up load
2010-11-11T05:14:39  <decipher> Warning: mkdir() [function.mkdir]: Permission denied in /var/www/vhosts/ai-contest.com/www/check_submit.php on line 26  Warning: move_uploaded_file(/home/contest/ai-contest/planet_wars/submissions/186873/entry.zip) [function.move-uploaded-file]: failed to open stream: No such file or directory in /var/www/vhosts/ai-contest.com/www/check_submit.php on line 50  Warning: move_uploaded_file() [function.move-uploaded-file]: Unable
2010-11-11T05:16:28  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4225), george(4048), dmj111(4046), GreenTea(4036), rsergio(4012), bix0r4ever(4007), felixcoto(3993), rs5147(3987), _iouri_(3974), Accoun(3969)
2010-11-11T05:17:41  <antimatroid1> decipher: i'm making a new map generator
2010-11-11T05:21:37  <decipher> oh are you behind the contest
2010-11-11T05:21:49  <antimatroid1> no
2010-11-11T05:21:56  <antimatroid1> i just wanted more interesting maps
2010-11-11T05:21:59  <decipher> oh ok
2010-11-11T05:22:07  <antimatroid1> they don't always seem to be coming out symmetric atm though
2010-11-11T05:22:10  <decipher> i thought that was the answer to why the program wouldnt upload
2010-11-11T05:22:18  <antimatroid1> the idea is that they aren't all just symmetric across the centre
2010-11-11T05:31:23  <janzert1> decipher: try again now
2010-11-11T05:31:43  <janzert1> Just saw the forum post that it was broken and fixed it
2010-11-11T05:31:59  *** janzert1 is now known as janzert
2010-11-11T05:32:13  <decipher>  awesome thanks ill try now
2010-11-11T05:38:42  <decipher> yeah it worked awesome now i can go to sleep ^^ thanks for the fix have a good night
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2010-11-11T05:44:13  <antimatroid1> gah, i cannot for the life of me work out why this wont work :(
2010-11-11T05:44:34  <antimatroid1> it works most of the time, but ocasionally 2 joint lots of planets will be out by a distance of 1
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2010-11-11T06:10:13  <antimatroid1> i'm going to test if the first 100 maps are symmetric with this test
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2010-11-11T06:13:55  <boegel> I can't believe how close this was: http://ai-contest.com/visualizer.php?game_id=6945149
2010-11-11T06:16:29  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4229), george(4073), dmj111(4068), GreenTea(4066), Raschi(4051), rsergio(4023), bix0r4ever(4017), felixcoto(4009), rs5147(3995), hutabhu(3988)
2010-11-11T06:20:17  <antimatroid1> well the starting maps seem fine, so why is mine retarded :(
2010-11-11T06:25:58  <antimatroid1> fixed
2010-11-11T06:25:59  <antimatroid1> yay
2010-11-11T06:26:07  <antimatroid1> i'll generate a set of maps now
2010-11-11T06:35:59  <bhasker> morning
2010-11-11T06:36:38  <antimatroid1> morning
2010-11-11T06:36:50  <antimatroid1> bhasker: are you in a position to play a map?
2010-11-11T06:37:01  <bhasker> as in ?
2010-11-11T06:37:14  <antimatroid1> i made a map generator
2010-11-11T06:37:19  <antimatroid1> hold on, i'll find a coolish one
2010-11-11T06:39:32  <antimatroid1> http://codepad.org/Ni6C6Nhp
2010-11-11T06:39:37  <antimatroid1> that sort of gets my point across
2010-11-11T06:39:45  <antimatroid1> in that it's not symmetric the same way the rest are
2010-11-11T06:41:47  <bhasker> looks perfectly symmetric to me?
2010-11-11T06:42:15  <antimatroid1> yes, but the other maps being used have players on the same line splitting the middle planet yeah?
2010-11-11T06:43:03  <antimatroid1> notice the difference?
2010-11-11T06:43:20  <bhasker> hmm let me look at it
2010-11-11T06:43:51  <bhasker> can't make out in my viewer
2010-11-11T06:43:55  <bhasker> looks identical to other maps
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2010-11-11T06:45:56  <antimatroid1> http://imgur.com/H2dAz.png
2010-11-11T06:46:01  <antimatroid1> that's what i am referring to
2010-11-11T06:46:53  <bhasker> ah k
2010-11-11T06:47:52  <antimatroid1> i want maps like this included in the final tourny
2010-11-11T06:48:33  <antimatroid1> mega1: i have a new map generator if you're interested in some new maps?
2010-11-11T06:48:42  <antimatroid1> they have less restrictions on symmetry
2010-11-11T06:49:17  <mega1> antimatroid1: any word on the final tournament map generator?
2010-11-11T06:49:41  <antimatroid1> no, i'm hoping it might resemble something like i just made
2010-11-11T06:49:58  <mega1> I hope it might resemble something that we actually test on :-)
2010-11-11T06:50:00  <antimatroid1> http://codepad.org/Ni6C6Nhp that's one map i generated, i'm just cleaning the code up
2010-11-11T06:50:07  <boegel> how will the bots for the final tournament be picked?
2010-11-11T06:50:10  <antimatroid1> this is generating random maps
2010-11-11T06:50:16  <antimatroid1> boegel: all of them
2010-11-11T06:50:18  <mega1> antimatroid1: but to answer the question yes I'm interested
2010-11-11T06:50:19  <boegel> will it be like just the top 100 or something?
2010-11-11T06:50:25  <boegel> antimatroid1: ah, cool, good news
2010-11-11T06:50:43  <boegel> antimatroid1: and will there be updates of the ranking after the submission deadline?
2010-11-11T06:50:46  <antimatroid1> http://imgur.com/H2dAz.png that's what i've made it to do
2010-11-11T06:51:13  <antimatroid1> boegel: last time there wasn't a live leaderboard while it was running, but i have petitioned as much as possible for that to be different this time
2010-11-11T06:51:21  <antimatroid1> otherwise results are viewable at the end
2010-11-11T06:52:22  <boegel> uhu, cool, thx
2010-11-11T06:52:41  * boegel hopes he'll have time to weed out the final bugs from his bot and tune it fully
2010-11-11T06:53:18  <antimatroid1> i just finished exams, so i have nothing but the ai comp to work on
2010-11-11T06:53:28  <antimatroid1> i took the night out to make the new map generator for better testing maps
2010-11-11T06:54:02  <antimatroid1> i started a complete rewrite a few days ago :)
2010-11-11T06:55:11  <Error323_> ugh
2010-11-11T06:56:24  <antimatroid1> do people mostly ignore middle planets on the first move?
2010-11-11T06:56:39  <antimatroid1> one thing generators don't really do yet is multiple "middle" planets
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2010-11-11T07:12:16  <antimatroid1> mega1: https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B5joEFt1EpwZNzY2MGNiMTMtZGFhYi00MGIwLTkzMmEtMTljZjg5MGViNzgy&sort=name&layout=list&num=50
2010-11-11T07:12:25  <antimatroid1> i hope that link works for you? there's 100 maps
2010-11-11T07:12:53  <mega1> thanks, downloaded it
2010-11-11T07:13:17  <antimatroid1> i'd be interested to see if you think it'd be good or bad to use maps like these in the final contest
2010-11-11T07:13:22  <antimatroid1> as i plan to push for them to be
2010-11-11T07:14:14  <antimatroid1> they don't have any 0 growth planets, and min distance is 3
2010-11-11T07:14:21  <antimatroid1> but that kind of stuff is all set from parameters
2010-11-11T07:16:29  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4248), GreenTea(4071), dmj111(4060), george(4059), bix0r4ever(4029), rsergio(4015), Accoun(4009), felixcoto(4007), shangas(4002), oldman(3999)
2010-11-11T07:22:03  <antimatroid1> mega1: 76 is pretty cool
2010-11-11T07:22:11  <antimatroid1> you sort of have to go off and capture before doing anything
2010-11-11T07:22:30  <antimatroid1> anyone else about?
2010-11-11T07:22:36  <antimatroid1> bhasker: play with my maps :P
2010-11-11T07:22:52  <bhasker> get dhartmei to put them up on tcp:)
2010-11-11T07:25:22  <antimatroid1> i'll send him an email, i'm not 100% sure they are without fault, i did a test about symmetry though
2010-11-11T07:29:16  <bhasker> proud of my bot in this game http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=964450
2010-11-11T07:30:01  <antimatroid1> i'm going to shoot of this email then get back to work on my bot :|
2010-11-11T07:30:15  <bhasker> i added some abandon ship code
2010-11-11T07:30:19  <bhasker> lets see how that works out
2010-11-11T07:30:21  <antimatroid1> only like a 4 hour side track, that took way longer than expected aha
2010-11-11T07:30:40  <boegel> antimatroid1: nice maps
2010-11-11T07:34:25  <antimatroid1> boegel: i'm glad someones trying them :P
2010-11-11T07:35:10  <antimatroid1> i might generate 1000 and chuck a link in the forums
2010-11-11T07:35:43  <boegel> antimatroid1: drop me an email, will you :)
2010-11-11T07:35:57  <boegel> I'm planning to automatically tune my bot, so lot's of maps is good :)
2010-11-11T07:36:15  <boegel> antimatroid1: kenneth dot hoste funny-sign ugent dot be
2010-11-11T07:41:49  <antimatroid1> boegel: https://docs.google.com/leaf?id=0B5joEFt1EpwZYTNhOTY1ZWYtYmRlYS00N2RmLWJjOTAtOWY4MDAzNzEzOTg0&sort=name&layout=list&num=50
2010-11-11T07:43:55  <antimatroid1> http://tinyurl.com/antimaps or alternatively
2010-11-11T07:48:08  <bhasker> antimatroid http://apple.slashdot.org/story/10/11/11/022255/Australian-State-Govt-To-Fund-iPads-For-Doctors
2010-11-11T07:48:09  <bhasker> lol?
2010-11-11T07:50:48  <antimatroid1> i don't pay attention to australian politics, it's possibly a bigger joke than us politics atm
2010-11-11T07:51:19  <bhasker> hehe
2010-11-11T07:51:25  <bhasker> <--not an american though:)
2010-11-11T07:51:29  <bhasker> yet*
2010-11-11T07:51:48  <antimatroid1> i didn' say you are :P
2010-11-11T07:52:18  <bhasker> where in australia do you live?
2010-11-11T07:52:18  <Lithosphere> antimatroid1: i'll run them too in my tests, do you see any significant behaviour on those maps?
2010-11-11T07:52:33  <antimatroid1> bhasker: tasmania, the island at the bottom :)
2010-11-11T07:52:45  <bhasker> ah
2010-11-11T07:52:48  <antimatroid1> Lithosphere: what do you mean by significant behaviour?
2010-11-11T07:52:50  <Lithosphere> i guess most bots will behave more or less the same on these?
2010-11-11T07:53:00  <antimatroid1> i haven't really got a good running bot atm, i'm in the middle of a complete rewrite
2010-11-11T07:53:02  <bhasker> the place where i live the street is named "tasman" after the tasman sea
2010-11-11T07:53:33  <antimatroid1> they i think the strategies might switch up a bit more with these
2010-11-11T07:53:42  <antimatroid1> but* i think
2010-11-11T07:54:02  <antimatroid1> tasmania is awesome, there isn't lots of people and plenty of places to go camping/hiking
2010-11-11T07:54:39  <antimatroid1> the uni isn't great, but i'm fairly happy with the maths department
2010-11-11T07:57:32  <bhasker> nice half a million people in total
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2010-11-11T07:58:02  <bhasker> looks very pretty
2010-11-11T08:01:26  <Error323_> hey guys
2010-11-11T08:01:40  <Error323_> i'm out of ammo :(
2010-11-11T08:01:49  <boegel> antimatroid1: does that include the same maps as before?
2010-11-11T08:04:09  <antimatroid1> boegel: no
2010-11-11T08:04:11  <antimatroid1> sorry
2010-11-11T08:04:36  <antimatroid1> Error323_: pew pew pew
2010-11-11T08:04:42  <antimatroid1> thrust harder :)
2010-11-11T08:04:54  <Error323_> hehe
2010-11-11T08:10:19  <bhasker> hmm if i build orders for each planet with same availabilty queue and then try to score and pick the best orders
2010-11-11T08:10:35  <bhasker> its gonna be a really hard to identify which orders can be executed simultaneously
2010-11-11T08:12:38  <bhasker> is a simple pick highest score order, followed by the next one which can be executed simultaneously a good solution?
2010-11-11T08:12:47  <bhasker> do you guys think it will give a near optimal solution
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2010-11-11T08:13:30  <antimatroid1> not sure sorry
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2010-11-11T08:16:30  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4263), GreenTea(4086), dmj111(4077), Raschi(4075), george(4062), bix0r4ever(4049), rsergio(4035), protocolocon(4015), felixcoto(4012), Accoun(4011)
2010-11-11T08:19:45  <Error323_> bhasker: heh this is the basis of my minimax
2010-11-11T08:19:54  <Error323_> however, its teh fail
2010-11-11T08:20:51  <antimatroid1> i've given up on minimax :P
2010-11-11T08:21:28  <bhasker> heh
2010-11-11T08:21:35  <bhasker> i am just bored of tuning my heuristic bot
2010-11-11T08:21:37  <bhasker> its so boring
2010-11-11T08:21:42  <bhasker> to keep adding rules
2010-11-11T08:21:52  <bhasker> if this don't do this
2010-11-11T08:21:53  <bhasker> bah
2010-11-11T08:22:31  <Error323_> i agree
2010-11-11T08:22:39  <Error323_> hence i stopped doing that
2010-11-11T08:22:41  <antimatroid1> Error323_: did you get a copy of my maps? :P
2010-11-11T08:22:53  <Error323_> antimatroid1: no?
2010-11-11T08:22:58  <antimatroid1> http://tinyurl.com/antimaps
2010-11-11T08:23:38  <Error323_> thanks
2010-11-11T08:23:49  <antimatroid1> let me know what you think :P
2010-11-11T08:24:00  <antimatroid1> they should be reasonably different to other ones
2010-11-11T08:25:48  <Error323_> okay
2010-11-11T08:26:04  <antimatroid1> they're still symmetric, but with less restrictions on it
2010-11-11T08:26:18  <Error323_> more then 23 planets?
2010-11-11T08:26:21  <antimatroid1> no
2010-11-11T08:26:35  <Error323_> ok
2010-11-11T08:26:47  <antimatroid1> all 23 planets, and still only 1 planet equal distance between them at the start, but they aren't on a line joining the centre planet anymore
2010-11-11T08:27:11  <antimatroid1> min distance is 3, min starting distance between players is 7 and growth is between 1-5
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2010-11-11T08:27:52  <Migi32> hi everyone
2010-11-11T08:28:00  <antimatroid1> hello
2010-11-11T08:28:07  <antimatroid1> i made som maps if you're interested :) http://tinyurl.com/antimaps
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2010-11-11T08:28:29  <bhasker> hah the master returns
2010-11-11T08:28:35  <bhasker> You LOSE against bocsimacko-b0.57
2010-11-11T08:28:37  <bhasker> :(
2010-11-11T08:28:40  <Error323_> lol
2010-11-11T08:28:50  <Error323_> I love how the capital letters scream it at me
2010-11-11T08:28:54  <Error323_> LOSE
2010-11-11T08:28:56  <Error323_> you FAIL
2010-11-11T08:28:59  <Error323_> you SUCK
2010-11-11T08:29:03  <Error323_> xD
2010-11-11T08:29:04  <bhasker> lol
2010-11-11T08:29:30  <Error323_> I dropped down to #29 after a massive losing streak
2010-11-11T08:29:33  <Error323_> :(
2010-11-11T08:29:45  <Error323_> Do hope it was temporarily
2010-11-11T08:29:51  <Migi32> heh, I know the overall game isn't really worth watching but the 5-fleet sent at turn 41 here was a total superhero: http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=965091
2010-11-11T08:29:53  <bhasker> the rankings are like that
2010-11-11T08:30:59  <Error323_> yeah
2010-11-11T08:31:01  <Error323_> i hate that
2010-11-11T08:31:07  <Error323_> :P
2010-11-11T08:31:21  <Error323_> tcp has become more difficult
2010-11-11T08:31:26  <Error323_> i used to be 300 elo
2010-11-11T08:31:35  <Error323_> but now down to 250 or sth
2010-11-11T08:31:44  <Error323_> after a night of play
2010-11-11T08:31:50  <bhasker> yup
2010-11-11T08:31:57  <bhasker> bot are constantly improving
2010-11-11T08:32:00  <bhasker> its a losing battle lol
2010-11-11T08:32:03  <bhasker> its like the arms race
2010-11-11T08:32:04  <bhasker> :-\
2010-11-11T08:32:17  <bhasker> unless you are mega1, the only player with the nuke
2010-11-11T08:32:32  <Error323_> yeah
2010-11-11T08:32:36  <Error323_> I can't stand it
2010-11-11T08:32:46  <Error323_> I can to 2 ply with massive branching factor
2010-11-11T08:32:51  <Error323_> it should be epic
2010-11-11T08:33:17  <Error323_> Its just that I really don't know a good eval function
2010-11-11T08:33:17  <bhasker> you should wokr on a better eval function maybe?
2010-11-11T08:33:39  <Error323_> yeah
2010-11-11T08:33:46  <Error323_> but I haven't got a solid idea
2010-11-11T08:33:49  <bhasker> find some math major friends of yours
2010-11-11T08:33:54  <bhasker> to find you a good eval function
2010-11-11T08:33:54  <Error323_> this is my current:
2010-11-11T08:34:11  <bhasker> find some game theory expert to do it for tyou:)
2010-11-11T08:34:13  <bhasker> and just stick it in
2010-11-11T08:34:15  <Error323_>  * The heuristic score is defined as follows:
2010-11-11T08:34:15  <Error323_>  *         /                 f_e(p) + 1      \     /                 f_m(p) + 1      \
2010-11-11T08:34:18  <Error323_>  * h(n) = |Sum_{p in P_w(n)} ---------- * g(p)| - |Sum_{p in P_l(n)} ---------- * g(p)|,
2010-11-11T08:34:21  <Error323_>  *         \                 f_m(p) + 1      /     \                 f_e(p) + 1      /
2010-11-11T08:34:24  <Error323_>  *
2010-11-11T08:34:27  <Error323_>  * Where P_w(n) is the set of planets won at node n, P_l is the set of
2010-11-11T08:34:29  <Error323_>  * planets lost at node n, f_m(p) are the amount of fleets on my side send
2010-11-11T08:34:32  <Error323_>  * to this planet, f_e(p) are the amount of enemy fleets send to this
2010-11-11T08:34:34  <Error323_>  * planet and g(p) is the planet's growth rate.
2010-11-11T08:34:54  <Error323_> bhasker: hehe well I could maybe but that wouldn't be my work :P
2010-11-11T08:35:07  <bhasker> well most of it will still be yours:)
2010-11-11T08:35:13  <bhasker> only the eval function:)
2010-11-11T08:35:56  <bhasker> so you basically do this for every planet
2010-11-11T08:36:00  <bhasker> and sum up the scores?
2010-11-11T08:36:09  <bhasker> for a given node?
2010-11-11T08:36:17  <Error323_> only the planets that the actionStack had influence on
2010-11-11T08:36:54  <Error323_> so the delta's given by the path down to the terminal node
2010-11-11T08:37:54  <bhasker> where do f_m(p)/f_e(p) fit into the h(n) function
2010-11-11T08:38:08  <bhasker> i am sorry but i am not the most mathematically inclined person
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2010-11-11T08:38:32  <Error323_> well the idea is this
2010-11-11T08:39:13  <Error323_> if I win a planet by sending e.g. 1000 ships to it while the enemy just sends 1 ship its netto gain is (1 / 1000) * growth(p)
2010-11-11T08:39:17  <Error323_> which isn't good
2010-11-11T08:39:36  <Error323_> but if I send less ships then the enemy it score goes up
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2010-11-11T08:39:42  <Error323_> and vise versa for planets i've lost
2010-11-11T08:40:10  <Error323_> but I should prolly take into account the number of ships on the planet somehow
2010-11-11T08:40:29  <bhasker> so P_w(n) uses the f_e(p)/f_m(p) to calculate the cost of acquisition of the planet
2010-11-11T08:41:11  <Error323_> P_w is the set of planets that I've won because of my actions
2010-11-11T08:41:31  <Error323_> so i sum over all the planets in that set
2010-11-11T08:42:03  <bhasker> what about if you don't win /lose anything
2010-11-11T08:42:05  <Error323_> adding ((f_e(p) + 1) / (f_m(p) + 1)) * growth
2010-11-11T08:42:07  <bhasker> does the score for that goto 0
2010-11-11T08:42:30  <Error323_> yes thats the problem, i don't really know howto deal with that
2010-11-11T08:42:49  <bhasker> maybe look at ship difference
2010-11-11T08:42:55  <bhasker> if you are ahead on ships
2010-11-11T08:42:59  <Error323_> i give it something similar if its my planet or the enemies
2010-11-11T08:42:59  <bhasker> give it a higher score than zero?
2010-11-11T08:43:25  <Error323_> but i should specifically add scorings for sniping in it etc
2010-11-11T08:43:26  <bhasker> also i think you should factor in how much ahead in ships you are
2010-11-11T08:43:33  <bhasker> if you are a lot ahead
2010-11-11T08:43:37  <Error323_> yes i do have that
2010-11-11T08:43:49  <bhasker> then it won't matter if you sent a ton of ships
2010-11-11T08:43:51  <bhasker> to a planet
2010-11-11T08:44:03  <Error323_> h(n) = A - B + (myNumShips - enemyNumShips)
2010-11-11T08:44:18  <bhasker> also if you send a ton of ships to a planet which is close to enemy planets it should score higher than
2010-11-11T08:44:24  <bhasker> say a planet that is far awa
2010-11-11T08:44:31  <bhasker> even if you/enemy send same number of ships
2010-11-11T08:44:51  <Error323_> yeah, this is good i think
2010-11-11T08:45:11  <Error323_> but i do want something elegant
2010-11-11T08:45:25  <Error323_> not flesh out every single heuristic i know and score that :P
2010-11-11T08:45:33  <Error323_> like sniping etc
2010-11-11T08:45:51  <antimatroid1> i don't think sniping should be a heuristic
2010-11-11T08:45:59  <Error323_> indeed
2010-11-11T08:46:08  <antimatroid1> i've never had it as one
2010-11-11T08:46:26  <Error323_> no me neither and my simple action version did apply it on its own
2010-11-11T08:46:36  <antimatroid1> i'm in the process of writing a completely new bot without making stupid short cuts/approximations all over the place
2010-11-11T08:47:42  <bhasker> Error323 i think distribution of your ships matters
2010-11-11T08:47:45  <bhasker> when evaluating
2010-11-11T08:47:50  <bhasker> you should evaluate your spread vs enemies
2010-11-11T08:48:23  <antimatroid1> i just redistribute any ships i haven't used at the end of my turn
2010-11-11T08:48:26  <Error323_> bhasker: Indeed, cool :)
2010-11-11T08:49:08  <bhasker> you should probably see if for the node you are much mroe spread out than the enemy
2010-11-11T08:49:18  <bhasker> since strategically, its a losing situation
2010-11-11T08:49:34  <bhasker> if you have same number of ships and enemy has them closer on a bunch of planets
2010-11-11T08:49:36  <antimatroid1> not really, i will have already allocated ships needed to defend anything
2010-11-11T08:49:41  <bhasker> he can use them more effectively
2010-11-11T08:49:43  <antimatroid1> or that is planned to be used for expansion
2010-11-11T08:49:47  <bhasker> not really
2010-11-11T08:49:48  <bhasker> example
2010-11-11T08:49:56  <bhasker> lets say its a map with planets on the corners
2010-11-11T08:50:01  <bhasker> and something in the central
2010-11-11T08:50:05  <bhasker> the person who controls the central
2010-11-11T08:50:12  <bhasker> surely has a much higher advantage
2010-11-11T08:50:20  <bhasker> his time to travel to attack anything is much shorter
2010-11-11T08:50:30  <bhasker> if i attack a corner, you have to reinforce from really far away
2010-11-11T08:50:50  <bhasker> thats why on most games if you see, the person who usually takes teh central tends to win
2010-11-11T08:50:52  <antimatroid1> yes, but i will have already allocated ships to defend any attack necessary there
2010-11-11T08:51:03  <antimatroid1> hence it will be part of used ships, even if it's not sent
2010-11-11T08:51:15  <bhasker> you can't defend everything
2010-11-11T08:51:19  <bhasker> when enemy is staging to center
2010-11-11T08:51:22  <bhasker> with same number of ships
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2010-11-11T08:51:33  <antimatroid1> no, but i can defend what i expect i might have to
2010-11-11T08:51:51  <bhasker> you have to defend everying if you are even
2010-11-11T08:51:55  <bhasker> lets taken an example
2010-11-11T08:52:00  <antimatroid1> not always
2010-11-11T08:52:16  <bhasker> player A) has bottom right corner
2010-11-11T08:52:17  <bhasker> and middle
2010-11-11T08:52:19  <antimatroid1> you can potentially expand and save yourself in the time that they get to you
2010-11-11T08:52:25  <bhasker> player B) has the other 3 corners
2010-11-11T08:52:26  <antimatroid1> otherwise no one would expand on the first move ever
2010-11-11T08:52:37  <bhasker> player B has the other 3 corners i.e
2010-11-11T08:52:47  <bhasker> lets assume they are even on growth
2010-11-11T08:52:54  <bhasker> whose position do you think is stronger
2010-11-11T08:53:00  <bhasker> i can reinforce my planets in 1/2 the time
2010-11-11T08:53:11  <bhasker> if you do attack
2010-11-11T08:53:17  <bhasker> but if i attack any of the corners
2010-11-11T08:53:22  <bhasker> you won't be able to prevent the attack
2010-11-11T08:53:48  <bhasker> and i can hold my center even if you launch from all 3 sides
2010-11-11T08:54:14  <antimatroid1> an example like that doesn't work very well with words :P it very much depends on distances
2010-11-11T08:54:23  <bhasker> assuming its all equidistant
2010-11-11T08:54:31  <bhasker> the corner planets are equidistant from center
2010-11-11T08:54:36  <bhasker> lets take a simple map
2010-11-11T08:54:41  <bhasker> a 5 growth in every corner
2010-11-11T08:54:49  <bhasker> well that won't work
2010-11-11T08:54:55  <bhasker> yea nm
2010-11-11T08:54:58  <bhasker> 5 growth in corners
2010-11-11T08:55:01  <bhasker> and a 10 in the center
2010-11-11T08:55:12  <bhasker> player A controls 3 corners
2010-11-11T08:55:19  <bhasker> player B controls center and 1 corner
2010-11-11T08:55:25  <bhasker> would be interesting to see
2010-11-11T08:55:39  <bhasker> or maybe 2 growths in corner and 2 growth in middle
2010-11-11T08:55:56  <bhasker> can your map generator generate a map like that
2010-11-11T08:56:13  <bhasker> 4 growth in the middle i.e
2010-11-11T08:56:43  <antimatroid1> just make it by hand, wouldn't take very long
2010-11-11T08:56:48  <antimatroid1> mine is generating random maps
2010-11-11T08:56:54  <bhasker> ah k
2010-11-11T08:57:01  <bhasker> <--lazy:p
2010-11-11T08:57:17  <bhasker> oh well anyway i think any evaluation function should factor in position/spread of ships
2010-11-11T08:57:25  <Error323_> I agree
2010-11-11T08:57:32  <Error323_> its very important
2010-11-11T09:00:09  <antimatroid1> has anyone ever succeeded in changing their "about me"?
2010-11-11T09:00:26  <antimatroid1> i was originally going to be in a pair/team, but i'm doing it all by myself now
2010-11-11T09:00:42  <bhasker> also i believe if your bot requires staging code then your evaluation function isn't correct
2010-11-11T09:00:49  <bhasker> staging should emerge as a result of evaluation
2010-11-11T09:01:03  <bhasker> its clearly more desirable to stage than not to
2010-11-11T09:01:08  <bhasker> so if your function is correct
2010-11-11T09:01:14  <bhasker> it should not require any staging code
2010-11-11T09:03:01  <bhasker> i would say error try to remove your staging code if you have any
2010-11-11T09:03:10  <bhasker> and see if you can tune your eval function to stage :)
2010-11-11T09:03:26  <antimatroid1> what is "staging"?
2010-11-11T09:03:40  <bhasker> funnelling/staging
2010-11-11T09:03:41  <Error323_> bhasker: that would just explode my actionspace :(
2010-11-11T09:03:45  <bhasker> sending ships to the front
2010-11-11T09:03:52  <Error323_> i call it feeding
2010-11-11T09:03:55  <Error323_> in my code :P
2010-11-11T09:03:58  <bhasker> yea same thing
2010-11-11T09:03:59  <antimatroid1> redistribution?
2010-11-11T09:04:03  <bhasker> yup
2010-11-11T09:04:05  <Error323_> ye
2010-11-11T09:04:23  <bhasker> if your eval function is correct it should favour redistribution in a steady state
2010-11-11T09:04:32  <bhasker> if the redistribution helps improve your position
2010-11-11T09:04:33  <antimatroid1> i have safety/defensive/offensive/expansionary and redistributive moves
2010-11-11T09:04:40  <bhasker> example
2010-11-11T09:04:47  <bhasker> having 50 ships on two planets one behind the other
2010-11-11T09:04:51  <bhasker> is clearly not desirable
2010-11-11T09:04:56  <bhasker> compared to 100 in front
2010-11-11T09:05:04  <Error323_> yep
2010-11-11T09:05:13  <Error323_> but it explodes my branching factor
2010-11-11T09:05:21  <Error323_> and i'm already pushing the boundaries currently
2010-11-11T09:05:36  <Error323_> well actually i should reduce it even more in some states
2010-11-11T09:06:54  <bhasker> hmm but most of the redistribution nodes can probably be pruned
2010-11-11T09:07:02  <bhasker> like sending ships back to a planet thats protected
2010-11-11T09:07:04  <bhasker> can be pruned
2010-11-11T09:07:19  <bhasker> so if you build like a map of which planet can protect which ones etc
2010-11-11T09:07:24  <Error323_> true, but the problem is more sending the right amount
2010-11-11T09:07:25  <bhasker> you could probably prune a lot of the moves
2010-11-11T09:07:29  <bhasker> ah
2010-11-11T09:08:13  <bhasker> anyway all the best with your minmax version:)
2010-11-11T09:08:47  <Error323_> =]
2010-11-11T09:08:48  <Error323_> ty
2010-11-11T09:09:07  <bhasker> may the force be with you
2010-11-11T09:09:14  <bhasker> and may the dark side(mega1) not win
2010-11-11T09:09:49  <Migi32> Error323_, what's a ply actually in your minimax? A turn? A move (1 move = 1 target planets, n source planets)? Something else?
2010-11-11T09:10:17  <mega1> Error323_:  redistribution is makes my bot ~10x slower
2010-11-11T09:10:32  <mega1> but it's crucial
2010-11-11T09:10:49  <Error323_> Migi32: a ply is an action for a player
2010-11-11T09:11:28  <Migi32> ok but then what is an action? Sending ships from 1 planet to 1 other planet?
2010-11-11T09:11:44  <Error323_> Migi32: yes for multiple sources
2010-11-11T09:11:51  <Error323_> to multiple targets
2010-11-11T09:12:49  <Error323_> mega1: yeah i really don't see how i can do that without creating a giant problem in my branching factor :/
2010-11-11T09:14:33  <antimatroid1> mega1: did you every get minimax working?
2010-11-11T09:14:42  <antimatroid1> i've decided to work on a purely heuristic bot
2010-11-11T09:14:51  <mega1> technically yes
2010-11-11T09:15:02  <antimatroid1> well?
2010-11-11T09:15:13  <mega1> but at 1 ply it can hardly be called minimax
2010-11-11T09:15:20  <mega1> and at 2 plies it sucks
2010-11-11T09:15:27  <Error323_> yeah
2010-11-11T09:15:29  <Migi32> too slowN
2010-11-11T09:15:31  <antimatroid1> what do you mean by 1 ply? just you making moves?
2010-11-11T09:15:35  <Migi32> too slow?
2010-11-11T09:15:35  <Error323_> well i'm going two ply
2010-11-11T09:15:36  <mega1> yes
2010-11-11T09:15:45  <Error323_> with alpha beta, it doesn't suck that bad
2010-11-11T09:15:49  <mega1> being slow is one thing, but it's worse too
2010-11-11T09:15:55  <Error323_> but it ain't great either
2010-11-11T09:15:57  <Migi32> that's strange
2010-11-11T09:16:10  <mega1> it's not conservative enough
2010-11-11T09:16:24  <Error323_> Migi32: nah, you are creating heavy assumptions about the enemy only making the exact same moves as you can
2010-11-11T09:16:31  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4313), GreenTea(4097), dmj111(4091), bix0r4ever(4085), george(4082), shangas(4053), rsergio(4049), asavis(4041), protocolocon(4032), oldman(4031)
2010-11-11T09:16:37  <Error323_> which if that were so would be a good model
2010-11-11T09:16:55  <Error323_> but its not, and then its just locally optimal
2010-11-11T09:16:59  <Error323_> within your actionspace
2010-11-11T09:17:02  <Migi32> but 1 ply minimax, isn't that just generating a list of possible actions and then picking the highest scoring one?
2010-11-11T09:17:12  <Error323_> yea
2010-11-11T09:17:32  <Migi32> well I do that too.
2010-11-11T09:17:57  <Error323_> mega1: I'm truely amazed by your branching factor being ~100
2010-11-11T09:18:00  <Error323_> _o_
2010-11-11T09:18:07  <mega1> why?
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2010-11-11T09:18:17  <Error323_> its so small
2010-11-11T09:18:32  <Error323_> you are basically examining 100 moves
2010-11-11T09:18:32  <mega1> it's small because it's preordered
2010-11-11T09:18:47  <Error323_> and picking the best given the eval
2010-11-11T09:18:54  <mega1> yes
2010-11-11T09:19:12  <Migi32> preordered?
2010-11-11T09:19:17  <Error323_> oh you generate more moves you mean?
2010-11-11T09:21:15  <Error323_> mega1: how much worse is your bot when going two ply?
2010-11-11T09:21:23  <mega1> actually, I've just checked and preordering does not factor here
2010-11-11T09:21:28  <mega1> it's still ~100
2010-11-11T09:21:32  <mega1> +-50
2010-11-11T09:21:46  <Error323_> damn
2010-11-11T09:21:53  <Error323_> those are highly compound actions
2010-11-11T09:22:11  <mega1> yes
2010-11-11T09:22:17  <Error323_> that must be a beast of a function :P
2010-11-11T09:22:18  <mega1> what are the numbers for you?
2010-11-11T09:22:28  <Migi32> is most work in the move generation or the move evaluation so far?
2010-11-11T09:22:28  <Error323_> 3000
2010-11-11T09:22:28  <mega1> and for what kind of moves?
2010-11-11T09:22:38  <Error323_> moves of my frontline
2010-11-11T09:22:45  <mega1> Migi32: more in the eval
2010-11-11T09:22:49  <Error323_> the rest is staging
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2010-11-11T09:26:05  <Error323_> let me see what i produce in terms of actionsets on an average game
2010-11-11T09:28:35  <Error323_> mega1: how much worse is your bot when going 2 ply?
2010-11-11T09:28:51  <Error323_> if you don't wanna share i understand though
2010-11-11T09:28:53  <Error323_> :)
2010-11-11T09:29:15  <antimatroid1> my trees have never made it past processing a couple of hundred nodes
2010-11-11T09:29:23  <mega1> I _think_ after tuning it was about 60% loss
2010-11-11T09:29:30  <mega1> and much slower
2010-11-11T09:29:32  <antimatroid1> my move selection is too inefficient
2010-11-11T09:29:56  <mega1> the nash player is about equal
2010-11-11T09:29:57  <Error323_> mega1: even against your own version?
2010-11-11T09:29:59  <mega1> but much slower too
2010-11-11T09:30:12  <mega1> Error323_: yes, against that
2010-11-11T09:30:30  <Error323_> hmmmm
2010-11-11T09:30:30  <mega1> I haven't tried it on tcp
2010-11-11T09:30:40  <Error323_> that's kind of weird
2010-11-11T09:30:43  <Error323_> or well
2010-11-11T09:30:49  <antimatroid1> mega1: you can test with other usernames to avoid public humiliation :P
2010-11-11T09:30:52  <mega1> it's entirely possible that I screwed something up
2010-11-11T09:31:20  <Error323_> that, or the actions are locally optimal
2010-11-11T09:31:29  <Error323_> i should probably try 1 ply
2010-11-11T09:31:32  <antimatroid1> anyway, i'm going to bed so i can get up early and get some actual bot work done
2010-11-11T09:31:43  <Error323_> good night
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2010-11-11T09:35:43  <Error323_> mega1: I sometimes have an average branching factor of 3500 during one turn
2010-11-11T09:36:17  <mega1> ew
2010-11-11T09:36:21  <Error323_> without alphabeta it would be impossible :P
2010-11-11T09:36:28  <Error323_> yea..
2010-11-11T09:39:36  <Error323_> but this is way too much for the official server
2010-11-11T09:41:09  <Error323_> especially when my eval function becomes more sophisticated
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2010-11-11T09:44:16  <Error323_> bhasker: your bot is above me
2010-11-11T09:44:24  <Error323_> it should be doing much better at official imo
2010-11-11T09:44:29  <Error323_> did you upload it yet?
2010-11-11T09:44:31  <mega1> iouri.37 with 967 elo :-)
2010-11-11T09:44:39  <bhasker> yea but i guess i am just not getting enough games on official
2010-11-11T09:44:45  <mega1> whoops, not anymore
2010-11-11T09:44:46  <bhasker> 1 game
2010-11-11T09:44:51  <bhasker> 100% win rate
2010-11-11T09:44:51  <Error323_> haha
2010-11-11T09:45:28  <bhasker> and just because my bot can beat yours doesn't guarantee that it does better against others:-\
2010-11-11T09:45:40  <Error323_> true
2010-11-11T09:45:47  <Error323_> but given that its elo > mine
2010-11-11T09:46:43  <bhasker> yea but # of bots on tcp is very low
2010-11-11T09:46:51  <bhasker> whereas # of bots on official is a lot more
2010-11-11T09:46:55  <Error323_> ye
2010-11-11T09:47:00  <Error323_> thats prolly it
2010-11-11T09:47:14  <Error323_> you've been overfitting at tcp :P
2010-11-11T09:47:22  <bhasker> nah
2010-11-11T09:47:36  <bhasker> i just look at bugs in my heuristics and try to fix them
2010-11-11T09:47:51  <bhasker> though its gotten to a point where i don't know what else to fix
2010-11-11T09:47:52  <bhasker> :-\
2010-11-11T09:47:57  <bhasker> everything i fix
2010-11-11T09:48:00  <bhasker> breaks something else
2010-11-11T09:48:11  <Error323_> yeah... i know that feeling
2010-11-11T09:49:40  <bhasker> and i still lose to shampoo
2010-11-11T09:50:09  <bhasker> and sometimes on random maps to -ve rated bots
2010-11-11T09:50:11  <bhasker> :-\
2010-11-11T09:50:35  <bhasker> but then my bot surprises me like this
2010-11-11T09:50:35  <bhasker> http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=965717
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2010-11-11T09:56:05  <Error323_> bhasker: you don't use routing anymore?
2010-11-11T09:56:23  <bhasker> as in routing via my other planets?
2010-11-11T09:56:28  <bhasker> i do use it
2010-11-11T09:56:34  <Error323_> ye
2010-11-11T09:56:36  <Error323_> ok
2010-11-11T09:56:57  <bhasker> in that game you can see that  i am funnelling through top and bottom separately
2010-11-11T09:57:01  <bhasker> after like turn 61
2010-11-11T09:57:45  <Error323_> at turn 61 the 4 growthrate planet goes over the 5 growthrate
2010-11-11T09:57:53  <Error323_> while the 5 growthrate is in its path
2010-11-11T09:57:58  <bhasker> oh thats because i don't always route through
2010-11-11T09:58:05  <bhasker> i stage to the closest to enemy
2010-11-11T09:58:22  <Error323_> oh
2010-11-11T09:58:24  <bhasker> and i only route to next hop if its covers this planet completely
2010-11-11T09:58:32  <Error323_> doesn't that defeat its purpose?
2010-11-11T09:58:43  <bhasker> otherwise i route to the next next hop
2010-11-11T09:58:46  <Error323_> i route if the detour <= 1
2010-11-11T09:59:34  <bhasker> i guess i could do that
2010-11-11T09:59:47  <Error323_> also because it looks pretty :P
2010-11-11T09:59:56  <bhasker> yea that it does lol
2010-11-11T10:00:09  <bhasker> let me add that in and see
2010-11-11T10:00:55  <bhasker> hmm it will be hard to change my code
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2010-11-11T10:16:32  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4440), bix0r4ever(4162), GreenTea(4146), george(4120), dmj111(4096), rsergio(4070), shangas(4061), asavis(4038), hutabhu(4020), Accoun(4015)
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2010-11-11T10:39:44  <Migi32> does TCP have a map extractor?
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2010-11-11T10:41:57  <JamesMG> lavalamp linked a zipfile of all the TCP maps here a day or two ago
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2010-11-11T11:16:32  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4463), george(4178), GreenTea(4158), bix0r4ever(4140), dmj111(4120), rsergio(4096), shangas(4087), asavis(4051), Accoun(4044), oldman(4043)
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2010-11-11T12:16:33  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4423), george(4218), GreenTea(4167), Raschi(4136), dmj111(4131), shangas(4108), rsergio(4090), oldman(4084), felixcoto(4067), bix0r4ever(4059)
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2010-11-11T12:45:18  <lavalamp_> weird... my bot is back down to the 200's... I guess the ranks vary by up to 120 places or so
2010-11-11T12:45:33  <JamesMG> I broke mine :)
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2010-11-11T12:54:38  <lavalamp_> my "optimization" last night broke mine, too
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2010-11-11T12:55:49  <lavalamp_> it also didn't speed it up much
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2010-11-11T12:56:35  <JamesMG> I sped mine up a decent amount, maybe it won't crash on the official server now
2010-11-11T12:57:38  <JamesMG> barely holding on to my positive ELO on the TCP server
2010-11-11T12:57:51  <lavalamp_> I lost mine... :/
2010-11-11T12:58:16  <lavalamp_> but to be fair my best bot is vulnerable to my other bots so they may be keeping it artificially low
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2010-11-11T13:16:38  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4433), george(4222), Raschi(4207), GreenTea(4177), bix0r4ever(4142), dmj111(4138), shangas(4127), oldman(4102), rsergio(4098), Accoun(4067)
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2010-11-11T13:35:31  <Migi32> does TCP only play 199 moves instead of 200?
2010-11-11T13:35:51  <Migi32> I mean turns, not moves
2010-11-11T13:43:18  <bhasker> its funny CCCF has the same problem as my more correct bot
2010-11-11T13:43:22  <bhasker> it just stops doing anything at all
2010-11-11T13:43:26  <bhasker> once it loses the advantage
2010-11-11T13:43:30  <bhasker> http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=969118
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2010-11-11T13:49:06  <bhasker> E323 whats new in 17.2?
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2010-11-11T14:16:35  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4407), george(4223), GreenTea(4156), Raschi(4123), dmj111(4120), shangas(4114), oldman(4094), rsergio(4067), Accoun(4056), asavis(4052)
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2010-11-11T15:01:36  <olafje> hi, is there anyone else having problems creating an account? (Failed to send confirmation email. Try again in a few minutes.)
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2010-11-11T15:04:15  <JamesMG> looks like the site is busted at the moment
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2010-11-11T15:12:19  <olafje> Thanks, I'll try again another day
2010-11-11T15:13:59  <Migi32> I just uploaded my bot again. It said "success!" but my bot has been "ready to be compiled" for almost half an hour now
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2010-11-11T15:16:17  <Migi32> http://ai-contest.com/game_stats.php
2010-11-11T15:16:35  <Migi32> went from 32 games / hour to 6 games / hour somewhere in the last 24 hours
2010-11-11T15:16:35  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4412), george(4229), Raschi(4194), GreenTea(4161), dmj111(4126), shangas(4120), oldman(4100), bix0r4ever(4098), rsergio(4073), Accoun(4070)
2010-11-11T15:17:06  <Migi32> sorry games/minute instead of games/hour
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2010-11-11T15:23:26  <Migi32> lol, http://ai-contest.com/advanced_strategy_guide.php
2010-11-11T15:27:06  <Migi32> ok my bot's submission failed to compile but I received no email. What do I do now? Keep uploading?
2010-11-11T15:33:38  <lavalamp_> I hear dancing naked on your roof helps
2010-11-11T15:37:22  <Bobng> or buying us a better server
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2010-11-11T15:55:39  <Migi32> ok, changing MyBot.cpp to MyBot.cc made it recognize the submission as c++ (.cpp is the most used c++ extension btw), but it still fails. I'll now try renaming all .cpp files to .cc
2010-11-11T15:57:15  <lavalamp_> good idea
2010-11-11T15:57:24  <lavalamp_> @repo
2010-11-11T15:57:25  <contestbot> lavalamp_: repo = http://code.google.com/p/ai-contest/
2010-11-11T15:57:41  <lavalamp_> you can look there for the script that actually does the compiling if you have more issues
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2010-11-11T16:16:36  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4392), george(4201), bix0r4ever(4186), GreenTea(4128), dmj111(4106), Raschi(4096), shangas(4095), oldman(4090), Accoun(4053), felixcoto(4031)
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2010-11-11T16:31:48  <Error323_> bhasker: new version? =)
2010-11-11T16:32:46  <Error323_> lol, 1 elo below me @ tcp
2010-11-11T16:32:58  <Error323_> its gonna be interesting
2010-11-11T16:33:11  <Error323_> if the freakin servers were up
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2010-11-11T16:33:55  <boegel> no more servers active right now? :(
2010-11-11T16:34:01  <boegel> http://ai-contest.com/game_stats.php
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2010-11-11T17:12:58  <Migi32> hey amstan, could you check what's wrong with the mailing system? My code won't compile and after 4 submissions I've still received no mail.
2010-11-11T17:13:25  <amstan> Migi32: did you check your spam?
2010-11-11T17:13:52  <Migi32> ahh ok it went to spam. Thanks :)
2010-11-11T17:14:18  <Error323_> hehe
2010-11-11T17:14:31  <Error323_> gmail?
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2010-11-11T17:15:30  <amstan> Migi32: the only reason it's there because people don't unmark the spam
2010-11-11T17:15:49  <Migi32> yes, gmail. I will unmark it.
2010-11-11T17:16:35  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4377), george(4198), bix0r4ever(4161), GreenTea(4104), dmj111(4093), shangas(4074), Raschi(4072), oldman(4068), Accoun(4031), asavis(4006)
2010-11-11T17:16:50  <Migi32> ok, apparently your version of gcc doesn't support writing numbers as 0b000101
2010-11-11T17:18:09  <Error323_> o_O
2010-11-11T17:18:37  <Error323_> i didn't know that was possible
2010-11-11T17:18:42  <Migi32> no problem, I can write it as 1U<<3
2010-11-11T17:19:00  <Error323_> its binary?
2010-11-11T17:19:03  <Error323_> i presume
2010-11-11T17:19:16  <Migi32> yes
2010-11-11T17:20:08  <Migi32> there's also 0x0123456789ABCDEF for hexadecimal but I guess you knew that
2010-11-11T17:20:22  <boegel> why did I lose this gme according to the list of games in my profile? http://ai-contest.com/visualizer.php?game_id=6969582
2010-11-11T17:20:26  <Error323_> yes i did
2010-11-11T17:20:42  <boegel> I don't see a crashed warning message, and I do seem to have won
2010-11-11T17:21:36  <Error323_> good question
2010-11-11T17:21:38  <Error323_> =)
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2010-11-11T17:23:08  <boegel> seems like a bug in the system, if you ask me :)
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2010-11-11T17:33:16  <codefun64> There seems to be a problem with perl scripts on the server... anyone else notice that?
2010-11-11T17:33:28  <codefun64> I mean, I run them on my computer and they work fine, they also win the battles
2010-11-11T17:33:43  <codefun64> but then I upload them and all the battles result in me not starting/timing out/crashing. How is this possible?
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2010-11-11T17:33:52  <amstan> codefun64: runtime exceptions?
2010-11-11T17:34:25  <codefun64> Well that woudl be alot of exceptions since I've had 4 battles with this latest upload, all of which resulted in a "crash" but worked fine on my laptop
2010-11-11T17:34:35  <codefun64> and previous uploads had the same problem.
2010-11-11T17:34:55  <codefun64> 1k ranks down the toilet ftw!
2010-11-11T17:35:14  <amstan> codefun64: yes.. do you have the same perl version?
2010-11-11T17:35:30  <codefun64> I'm pretty sure I do, but I'll have to check.
2010-11-11T17:35:38  <amstan> 5.8.8
2010-11-11T17:37:01  <codefun64> Mine's 5.12.2
2010-11-11T17:37:17  <codefun64> Not aware of changes between the two that would cause a complete runtime failure, though.
2010-11-11T17:37:38  <Error323_> perl is scary
2010-11-11T17:38:04  <codefun64> Usually it's not >_>
2010-11-11T17:38:27  <sigh> The perl starter that I saw uses regexes to parse the state, when all you need is a split
2010-11-11T17:38:45  <sigh> that's scary :P
2010-11-11T17:41:00  <janstaunton> :o
2010-11-11T17:41:05  <janstaunton> Expensive regexes
2010-11-11T17:42:30  <Error323_> i'm having the hardest time figuring out a formula that represents the goodness of a gamestate >_<
2010-11-11T17:43:21  * codefun64 chews on a piece of gamestate
2010-11-11T17:43:28  <codefun64> that piece is pretty good ;)
2010-11-11T17:43:41  <codefun64> gamestate goodness! :D
2010-11-11T17:43:49  <Error323_> lol
2010-11-11T17:44:52  * codefun64 has to download an old version of perl to make his bot
2010-11-11T17:44:57  <codefun64> Evil perl 5.8.8 :O
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2010-11-11T17:47:48  <janstaunton> :o
2010-11-11T17:47:53  <janstaunton> Why use perl?
2010-11-11T17:48:22  <codefun64> Because that's my favorite language?
2010-11-11T17:48:55  <codefun64> and because C# is reported to not work on the server? lol
2010-11-11T17:49:45  <JamesMG> yeah, don't use C#
2010-11-11T17:50:20  <codefun64> Yeah well since I'm 14 I don't have a huge repertiore of languages... perl and C# are the only ones I know really well.
2010-11-11T17:50:41  <codefun64> repertoire*
2010-11-11T17:50:46  <JamesMG> I'm only talking about the contest, the mono version on the official server has some issues
2010-11-11T17:51:43  <antimatroid1> morning
2010-11-11T17:52:04  <JamesMG> hi antimatroid1
2010-11-11T17:52:06  <codefun64> Morning? Where do you live, man? ;)
2010-11-11T17:52:15  <antimatroid1> australia :)
2010-11-11T17:52:25  <codefun64> Awesome sauce
2010-11-11T17:52:43  <antimatroid1> have you guys tried the maps i made?
2010-11-11T17:52:50  <antimatroid1> i'm curious what other people thought?
2010-11-11T17:52:52  <codefun64> Didn't know you made maps!
2010-11-11T17:53:01  <antimatroid1> http://tinyurl.com/antimaps
2010-11-11T17:53:07  <antimatroid1> there's 1000
2010-11-11T17:53:31  <sigh> are these the ones with different symmetries?
2010-11-11T17:53:39  <codefun64> Why so many maps..?
2010-11-11T17:53:49  <antimatroid1> codefun64: i just told it to make a bunch
2010-11-11T17:54:26  <antimatroid1> sigh: sort of, there's really only one "type of symmetry" although the angles at which the players start from the origin are picked randomly and they aren't on a line joining the centre planet
2010-11-11T17:55:21  <sigh> awww... as a math student you should be able to come up with more exotic symmetries :P
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2010-11-11T17:55:56  <antimatroid1> i think these maps are pretty cool
2010-11-11T17:56:01  <sigh> :)
2010-11-11T17:56:05  <JamesMG> running them all now
2010-11-11T17:56:16  <codefun64> I'll have to try some of them
2010-11-11T17:56:35  <codefun64> different maps might break my bot. Glitch fixing ftw :O
2010-11-11T17:56:48  <antimatroid1> they all have 23 planets with a centre planet
2010-11-11T17:57:05  <antimatroid1> min distance is 3, 7 for players starting planets, and growth is between 1-5
2010-11-11T17:57:16  <codefun64> You should've made some of the maps random
2010-11-11T17:57:26  <antimatroid1> they are all random under those restrictions
2010-11-11T17:57:33  <JamesMG> this many maps might break my processor :)
2010-11-11T17:57:33  <antimatroid1> i will clean the map generator up and post that soon
2010-11-11T17:57:35  <codefun64> Ahhhhh, cool
2010-11-11T17:57:47  <codefun64> James, what kind of processor are you runnin'? o_O
2010-11-11T17:57:55  <antimatroid1> although i probably did a lot of things in embarrasing ways :)
2010-11-11T17:58:01  <JamesMG> it's my laptop
2010-11-11T17:58:20  * codefun64 has a ridiculously overpowered laptop
2010-11-11T17:58:29  <JamesMG> running 1102 maps with each of the sample bots
2010-11-11T17:59:44  <antimatroid1> sigh: i'll try to make some maps satisfying some other symmetries at some point, other things i would like is more than one planet starting at an equal distance from both players
2010-11-11T17:59:56  <antimatroid1> possible, all neutrals starting like that
2010-11-11T18:00:14  <antimatroid1> 1102? there should have been just 1000
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2010-11-11T18:00:34  <JamesMG> I let it run the starter 100 and a couple of McLeopold's maps too
2010-11-11T18:00:34  <antimatroid1> map59 looks like some thing from space invaders
2010-11-11T18:00:47  <codefun64> Hehe
2010-11-11T18:01:20  <codefun64> Here's a question, why build a map generator? Why not just use the ones the kits come with?
2010-11-11T18:01:41  <antimatroid1> they don't display symmetrically with jBotManager, but i'm 99% sure they are, i had troubles for a while where some pairs would be out by a distance of 1, but i'm pretty sure they're ALL symmetric now
2010-11-11T18:01:49  <antimatroid1> because they are different
2010-11-11T18:02:02  <sigh> codefun64: as a general ruel, to test your bot in different conditions and make it more robust
2010-11-11T18:02:10  <antimatroid1> all the maps in the starter pack have the players starting planets on a line joining the centre planet
2010-11-11T18:02:16  <sigh> final tournament won't use the current maps
2010-11-11T18:02:26  <codefun64> Oh cool
2010-11-11T18:02:31  <antimatroid1> i'm hoping i can push for maps like these to be included
2010-11-11T18:02:37  <antimatroid1> although i wont if people didn't like them
2010-11-11T18:02:38  <codefun64> What's the final tournament like? Do they restart the scores?
2010-11-11T18:02:39  <sigh> hassel j3camero some more
2010-11-11T18:02:43  <sigh> hassle
2010-11-11T18:02:48  <JamesMG> dare I ask why the java sample bots use 10MB of RAM?
2010-11-11T18:02:55  <sigh> he was receptive to the idea
2010-11-11T18:03:02  <codefun64> Because Java sucks?
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2010-11-11T18:03:06  <antimatroid1> they weren't reset last time i don't think, but i have stated that they should be
2010-11-11T18:04:00  <codefun64> Could prove interesting
2010-11-11T18:04:22  <codefun64> and blah. My bot still runs fine on my laptop... but crashes on the server.
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2010-11-11T18:05:42  <JamesMG> turn 1 crashes, or later in the game?
2010-11-11T18:05:56  <codefun64> turn 1, crashes at the very start before the first move.
2010-11-11T18:06:08  <JamesMG> oh, good luck with that
2010-11-11T18:06:17  <codefun64> And I just tested again with 100 mseconds per turn, and didn't crash at all even near the end.
2010-11-11T18:06:25  <codefun64> So it's not a problem with the code -_-
2010-11-11T18:07:24  <antimatroid1> codefun64: c++?
2010-11-11T18:07:29  <antimatroid1> i've had such problems
2010-11-11T18:07:31  <codefun64> perl.
2010-11-11T18:07:40  <antimatroid1> i have problems like that with c++\
2010-11-11T18:07:57  <codefun64> It didn't used to do this but the last few days have crashed my bot with no cause
2010-11-11T18:08:53  <codefun64> How do I solve a problem I don't have?
2010-11-11T18:14:09  <JamesMG> I like them antimatroid1
2010-11-11T18:14:44  <antimatroid1> JamesMG: :)
2010-11-11T18:14:56  <antimatroid1> i think they make for some more interesting games
2010-11-11T18:15:10  <sigh> codefun64: you are using strict and warnings, right?
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2010-11-11T18:16:36  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4366), george(4182), bix0r4ever(4157), Raschi(4133), shangas(4121), oldman(4110), GreenTea(4104), dmj111(4087), asavis(4024), felixcoto(4007)
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2010-11-11T18:22:11  <janstaunton> http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=972760
2010-11-11T18:22:15  * janstaunton likes those kinds of maps
2010-11-11T18:23:00  <janzert> codefun64: http://pastebin.ca/1988605
2010-11-11T18:23:35  <antimatroid1> janzert: are you interested in new maps for official server games?
2010-11-11T18:24:01  <antimatroid1> where the players starting planets aren't necessarily on a line joining the centre planet, but are still symmetrical at the start
2010-11-11T18:24:12  <janzert> hmm, if you get some sort of consensus that people would like them on the forums I don't have any problem with using a different generator
2010-11-11T18:24:45  <antimatroid1> cool, i shall clean the generator up, post it and get peoples opinions
2010-11-11T18:24:50  <janzert> I'm a bit worried about changing to a different generator at this stage though, but if the players don't mind I'd go for it
2010-11-11T18:24:58  <antimatroid1> i expect i'm doing some stuff fairly retardedly, but that can be fixed
2010-11-11T18:25:27  <antimatroid1> the maps are still  random, and i've kept 23 planets
2010-11-11T18:25:30  <janzert> also I'd prefer that it was in python to match the rest of the codebase
2010-11-11T18:25:44  * janzert has no idea what you're using
2010-11-11T18:25:50  <antimatroid1> ahhh, someone will need to rewrite it then :P i did it in c++
2010-11-11T18:26:03  <antimatroid1> i don't even have python installed :)
2010-11-11T18:26:21  <janzert> it's real easy ;)
2010-11-11T18:26:37  * codefun64 prays for his latest upload to work
2010-11-11T18:29:22  <janzert> boegel: btw regarding http://ai-contest.com/visualizer.php?game_id=6969582
2010-11-11T18:29:41  <janzert> you lose because yo take the neutral 58 ship planet on the last turn
2010-11-11T18:29:57  <janzert> remember the visualizer doesn't show the result of the last turn
2010-11-11T18:31:51  <codefun64> heeheehee! My bot didn't crash but the other guy's bot did! XD
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2010-11-11T18:32:30  <janzert> nice going :)
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2010-11-11T18:33:08  <codefun64> Tahnks janzert, didn't occur to me to get rid of that module :)
2010-11-11T18:33:13  <codefun64> Thanks, too
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2010-11-11T18:35:19  <janzert> welcome
2010-11-11T18:37:34  <codefun64> Well later guys - got a paper to rewrite -_-
2010-11-11T18:37:44  <codefun64> Best of luck with your bot wars!
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2010-11-11T19:07:56  <bhasker> E323 our bots are dancing around each other
2010-11-11T19:08:02  <bhasker> and it depends on who plays shampoo more
2010-11-11T19:08:04  <bhasker> lol
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2010-11-11T19:16:37  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4393), Raschi(4208), george(4205), shangas(4143), bix0r4ever(4130), oldman(4116), GreenTea(4112), dmj111(4098), _Astek_(4054), asavis(4049)
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2010-11-11T19:46:09  <Migi32> dude, this contest has become so much harder in the past couple months. The submission of kcm1700 that was top 1 for a fairly long time is now at rank 144
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2010-11-11T19:48:09  <eburnette_> Hi everybody, what's up
2010-11-11T19:49:06  *** amstan_ is now known as amstan
2010-11-11T19:50:28  <eburnette_> I wrote an article about the challenge at http://www.zdnet.com/blog/burnette/its-youth-vs-experience-in-the-google-ai-challenge-and-the-kids-are-winning/2123
2010-11-11T19:52:16  <eburnette_> And I finished my umpteenth rewrite and released a new bot called Houdour
2010-11-11T19:53:24  <davidjliu> you should really use evolutionary algorithms so you can call the next one houndoom
2010-11-11T19:54:13  <eburnette_> That's what I'm planning, I've done Charmeleon, Monferno, and their evolved forms
2010-11-11T19:54:14  <Migi32> looks good. I'll read it tomorrow
2010-11-11T19:54:53  <davidjliu> who the heck is monferno? is it one of those crazy newfangled Pokemon?
2010-11-11T19:55:05  <bhasker__> ouch eburnette you picked bockismacko vs dmj
2010-11-11T19:55:25  <bhasker__> the graph looks rather depressing
2010-11-11T19:55:33  <bhasker__> should have picked some games that draw
2010-11-11T19:56:29  <eburnette_> Make me a list of your faves and I'll update it
2010-11-11T19:56:43  <bhasker__> will do
2010-11-11T19:57:12  <bhasker__> but mega1 has made all the other bots look like a joke :-(
2010-11-11T19:57:44  <eburnette_> I got a whole bunch of ideas today so you guys are in trouble :)
2010-11-11T19:58:08  <davidjliu> two of the games from some of my old games I think are interesting:
2010-11-11T19:58:10  <davidjliu> http://ai-contest.com/visualizer.php?game_id=5303057
2010-11-11T19:58:17  <davidjliu>  http://ai-contest.com/visualizer.php?game_id=5713053
2010-11-11T19:58:20  <davidjliu> ps what happened to Ruilov?
2010-11-11T19:58:30  <davidjliu> like, he kinda... disappeared
2010-11-11T19:59:53  <sigh> what's with the youth vs experience claim?
2010-11-11T20:01:16  <eburnette_> Well, I noticed a ton of students are playing. I wonder who the youngest is?
2010-11-11T20:01:33  <Migi32> yea actually mega1 are you a student or a professional?
2010-11-11T20:01:46  <sigh> codefun64 was in here, said he was 14 :)
2010-11-11T20:02:59  <antimatroid1> there are only 151 pokemon
2010-11-11T20:03:15  <eburnette_> you haven't watched much pokemon lately have you?
2010-11-11T20:03:37  <antimatroid1> what are you talking about, there are only 151
2010-11-11T20:03:41  <antimatroid1> ;)
2010-11-11T20:03:45  <Migi32> I agree with antimatroid1
2010-11-11T20:03:57  <antimatroid1> just like there only exists one matrix movie
2010-11-11T20:04:01  <Migi32> exactly
2010-11-11T20:04:06  <davidjliu> I'd say there are 251
2010-11-11T20:04:14  <antimatroid1> you would be wrong
2010-11-11T20:04:19  <davidjliu> clearly generation 2 counts
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2010-11-11T20:04:56  <antimatroid1> eburnette: are you interested in different testing maps?
2010-11-11T20:05:02  <sigh> Migi32: I think this is mega1's blog: http://quotenil.com/
2010-11-11T20:05:06  <antimatroid1> i generated 1000 with less restrictions on symmetry
2010-11-11T20:05:20  <sigh> seems he has quire a lot of experience in AI :)
2010-11-11T20:05:35  <antimatroid1> sigh: think?
2010-11-11T20:05:45  <antimatroid1> it has his resume and everything
2010-11-11T20:05:52  <antimatroid1> he did ai for his masters
2010-11-11T20:06:01  <sigh> yup
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2010-11-11T20:06:50  <eburnette_> There are over 600 pokemon now
2010-11-11T20:08:22  <Migi32> his blog started in 2008. That means he's at least 2 ;)
2010-11-11T20:08:39  <eburnette_> antimatroid1 I saw your maps but I'm having enough trouble with the existing ones :)
2010-11-11T20:08:51  <antimatroid1> you guys aren't very good at cognitive dissonance
2010-11-11T20:09:01  <antimatroid1> if i have that word right
2010-11-11T20:09:12  <sigh> antimatroid1: huh?
2010-11-11T20:09:16  <antimatroid1> nope
2010-11-11T20:09:53  <antimatroid1> i was trying to use some smart word for choosing to ignore existing information about something, but i think i chose poorly :P
2010-11-11T20:10:15  <antimatroid1> Migi32: ahaha
2010-11-11T20:10:31  <antimatroid1> i'm stil laughing aha
2010-11-11T20:10:35  <sigh> I still don't know what your point is
2010-11-11T20:10:44  <antimatroid1> there are only 151 pokemon
2010-11-11T20:10:51  <antimatroid1> that is my point
2010-11-11T20:11:08  <sigh> oh... I thought you were in the mega1 conversation
2010-11-11T20:11:12  <davidjliu> bilateral symmetry is exciting
2010-11-11T20:11:30  <antimatroid1> i was in both
2010-11-11T20:11:44  <sigh> for that particular statement
2010-11-11T20:11:52  <antimatroid1> bilateral symmetry?
2010-11-11T20:12:11  <antimatroid1> it's confusing when people keep making up their own terms for things, yet i'm probably one of the worst offenders
2010-11-11T20:12:19  <davidjliu> mirror-image symmetry maps
2010-11-11T20:12:25  <davidjliu> maybe it's just a biology thing?
2010-11-11T20:12:47  <antimatroid1> all maps have been haven't they?
2010-11-11T20:13:14  <antimatroid1> the only real difference with mine is that the starting angles of the players aren't 180degrees apart
2010-11-11T20:13:40  <antimatroid1> 59 has to be my current favourite, only because it looks like a space invader
2010-11-11T20:13:46  <davidjliu> all maps have been radially symmetric, I think
2010-11-11T20:13:52  <davidjliu> but yeah, the maps are pretty exciting
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2010-11-11T20:14:43  <antimatroid1> oh yeah, i don't think you can do radially symmetric with starting angles not 180 degrees apart
2010-11-11T20:14:46  <antimatroid1> is that right?
2010-11-11T20:14:51  <davidjliu> yeah
2010-11-11T20:14:59  <antimatroid1> i was going to have it switch between them randomly when generating, but it didn't work
2010-11-11T20:15:58  <antimatroid1> i wanted to have it randomly picking noPlanets between 20 and 25, but it seems to screw things up, at least when i try to play as a human on jbotmanager it always crashes the human on the first turn for some maps
2010-11-11T20:16:37  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4365), george(4193), shangas(4153), Raschi(4124), oldman(4109), _Astek_(4089), GreenTea(4087), dmj111(4076), bix0r4ever(4073), asavis(4035)
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2010-11-11T20:23:52  <rebelxt> some new names on the TCP: nesselrode, metternich
2010-11-11T20:24:03  <rebelxt> any idea whose bots these are? ;-)
2010-11-11T20:25:19  <eburnette_> I'm relying on home planets to be on a line that intersects the center, is that a safe assumption?
2010-11-11T20:25:52  <davidjliu> ha, those are me and me
2010-11-11T20:26:04  <davidjliu> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Congress_of_Vienna#Participants
2010-11-11T20:27:01  <davidjliu> castlereagh's around too, but he's a little lower
2010-11-11T20:28:21  <rebelxt> davidjliu, hahaha
2010-11-11T20:28:30  <rebelxt> your bots are doing great
2010-11-11T20:28:33  <davidjliu> I get bored with names sometimes
2010-11-11T20:28:55  <davidjliu> heh, thanks... on the real server they have timeout issues sometimes though
2010-11-11T20:29:27  <davidjliu> although I think they're fast enough now
2010-11-11T20:29:52  <rebelxt> cool. i've heard you want to bail out at 0.8s wall time to be safe
2010-11-11T20:30:42  <davidjliu> Heh... I'm currently using the unofficial python kit which apparently uses some functionality in python 2.7 to do that
2010-11-11T20:30:53  <antimatroid1> eburnette_: why?
2010-11-11T20:31:01  <davidjliu> but yeah, at this point I'd rather see that I time out and try to make it faster than watch it do sill ystuff
2010-11-11T20:31:01  <rebelxt> timeisup exception? yep it requires 2.6
2010-11-11T20:31:10  <antimatroid1> i was planning to push to have other maps included, but if there is decent opposition i will leave it alone
2010-11-11T20:31:42  <davidjliu> I think it would probably screw up a few peoples' bots... some people may have some code with targeting planet 0, or something
2010-11-11T20:31:52  <eburnette_> I draw a line between them and center activity around that line, seems to help some
2010-11-11T20:31:55  <antimatroid1> planet 0 is still the centre planet
2010-11-11T20:32:28  <davidjliu> but now it's not always as important because it's not directly between the two home planets
2010-11-11T20:32:37  <antimatroid1> wait, let me get an example
2010-11-11T20:34:08  <antimatroid1> eburnette_: http://imgur.com/KSIDE.png is that red line what you mean?
2010-11-11T20:34:16  <antimatroid1> and can't you still do it, possibly having to change the code
2010-11-11T20:34:38  <eburnette_> the orange line in the black graph
2010-11-11T20:35:03  <antimatroid1> hmmmm, i really like the less restrictive maps :(
2010-11-11T20:35:13  <antimatroid1> it requires a more general bot too
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2010-11-11T20:36:14  <eburnette_> maybe a separate category in the contest for more general maps?
2010-11-11T20:36:56  <davidjliu> I'm quite a fan of them too
2010-11-11T20:37:06  <davidjliu> but for some reason it seems like my new bot times out on all of them on the first turn
2010-11-11T20:37:17  <antimatroid1> eburnette_: how much does the performance of your bot rely on that code?
2010-11-11T20:37:56  <davidjliu> oh wait, it's just because my bot's really slow
2010-11-11T20:37:57  <davidjliu> jk
2010-11-11T20:38:01  <eburnette_> hard to say exactly but not much
2010-11-11T20:38:03  <davidjliu> it's all good
2010-11-11T20:38:18  <antimatroid1> this is why specifics of the competition need to be concrete at the start
2010-11-11T20:38:24  <eburnette_> +1
2010-11-11T20:38:29  <antimatroid1> but i'm pretty sure jeff always wanted maps like these
2010-11-11T20:38:32  <antimatroid1> he gave me the idea
2010-11-11T20:38:52  <eburnette_> ooh, playing bocsi...
2010-11-11T20:39:00  <antimatroid1> not for long :P
2010-11-11T20:39:17  <eburnette_> s i g h
2010-11-11T20:39:51  <eburnette_> 75 turns
2010-11-11T20:43:35  <j3camero> yo yo
2010-11-11T20:43:49  <j3camero> yo yo
2010-11-11T20:44:06  <antimatroid1> j3camero: hello, i made less restrictive symmetric maps
2010-11-11T20:44:08  <davidjliu> hayo
2010-11-11T20:44:32  *** jeff_ <jeff_!~jeff@207.150.202.47> has joined #aichallenge
2010-11-11T20:44:39  <jeff_> yo yo
2010-11-11T20:44:46  <sigh> o_O
2010-11-11T20:44:51  <davidjliu> wuht
2010-11-11T20:44:53  *** jeff_ is now known as Guest39644
2010-11-11T20:45:10  <Guest39644> k I think I fixed my nick now.
2010-11-11T20:45:12  <Zannick> nice nick
2010-11-11T20:45:13  <Guest39644> damn
2010-11-11T20:45:15  <sigh> lol
2010-11-11T20:45:27  <Guest39644> God damn it how do I fix my nick?
2010-11-11T20:45:37  <sigh>  /nickerv release nick password
2010-11-11T20:45:39  <Guest39644> I try /nick j3camero. I'm such a newb guys.
2010-11-11T20:45:43  <Zannick> /nick <new nick>
2010-11-11T20:46:01  <Zannick> /msg nickserv ghost <nick> <password>
2010-11-11T20:46:02  *** bhasker_ <bhasker_!~bhasker@nat/yahoo/x-wxwvfpyfpckrkvea> has joined #aichallenge
2010-11-11T20:46:07  <sigh> or that
2010-11-11T20:46:11  <Zannick> then /nick as before
2010-11-11T20:46:25  <Zannick> if it's on another computer, it might try to come back on, though
2010-11-11T20:46:29  <Zannick> some clients do that
2010-11-11T20:47:04  <Guest39644> That's messed. I don't think I have irssi open in any other screen...
2010-11-11T20:47:27  <j3camero> Oh no wait here I am
2010-11-11T20:47:31  *** j3camero <j3camero!~jeff@207.150.202.47> has left #aichallenge
2010-11-11T20:47:43  <sigh> O_o
2010-11-11T20:47:48  <antimatroid1> lol
2010-11-11T20:47:54  *** Guest39644 is now known as release
2010-11-11T20:48:04  <sigh> lol
2010-11-11T20:48:09  <release> holy hell
2010-11-11T20:48:13  <sigh>  /nickserv not /nixk
2010-11-11T20:48:15  <release> This is so embarassing, lol
2010-11-11T20:48:16  <sigh>  /nickserv not /nick
2010-11-11T20:48:34  <sigh> you should be able to do /nick j3camero
2010-11-11T20:48:35  <sigh> now
2010-11-11T20:48:36  <sigh> though
2010-11-11T20:48:44  <sigh> unless it has locked you
2010-11-11T20:48:52  <release> MAybe
2010-11-11T20:49:06  <release> I got a message back from nickserv saying j3camero is not a registered nickname.
2010-11-11T20:49:08  <antimatroid1> release: http://imgur.com/KSIDE.png are those the sort of maps you wanted a few weeks ago?
2010-11-11T20:49:21  *** bhasker <bhasker!~bhasker@nat/yahoo/x-rqzrpzixbguijvog> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2010-11-11T20:49:25  <sigh> oh... then in that case... just /nick j3camerio
2010-11-11T20:49:31  <sigh> */nick j3camero
2010-11-11T20:49:34  <release> lol antimatroid1... this nick better not stick :-P
2010-11-11T20:49:53  <sigh> if you haven't registered, ignore everything I've said
2010-11-11T20:50:03  <release> I do /nick j3camero but alas nothing happens. My understanding of irssi just broke.
2010-11-11T20:50:14  <sigh> what does it say?
2010-11-11T20:50:43  <sigh> I'll try :)
2010-11-11T20:50:48  *** sigh is now known as j3camero_
2010-11-11T20:50:54  *** antimatroid1 is now known as sigh
2010-11-11T20:50:58  <j3camero_> "Error(433): j3camero Nickname is already in use."
2010-11-11T20:51:05  *** sigh <sigh!~Nick@236.132.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au> has quit IRC (Disconnected by services)
2010-11-11T20:51:10  <j3camero_> haha
2010-11-11T20:51:15  *** j3camero_ is now known as sigh
2010-11-11T20:51:19  <release> hehe
2010-11-11T20:51:25  <release> Identity theft!
2010-11-11T20:51:29  <Zannick> all you did was leave the channel with /part
2010-11-11T20:51:32  <Zannick> you didn't /quit
2010-11-11T20:51:37  *** release <release!~jeff@207.150.202.47> has quit IRC (Quit: leaving)
2010-11-11T20:51:46  *** antimatroid <antimatroid!~Nick@236.132.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au> has joined #aichallenge
2010-11-11T20:51:52  <Zannick> but you apparently found the right screen
2010-11-11T20:52:00  * Zannick facepalm
2010-11-11T20:52:01  <sigh> wb antimatriod
2010-11-11T20:52:04  <antimatroid> :P
2010-11-11T20:52:22  <antimatroid> @click
2010-11-11T20:52:23  <contestbot> antimatroid: No!
2010-11-11T20:52:34  *** j3camero <j3camero!~jeff@207.150.202.47> has joined #aichallenge
2010-11-11T20:52:39  <j3camero> Ah I'm me again.
2010-11-11T20:52:45  <antimatroid> hi release
2010-11-11T20:52:48  <sigh> oh... release was the wrong command all that time... I as thinking of recover
2010-11-11T20:52:49  <j3camero> That was a good tip on the /quit
2010-11-11T20:53:02  <sigh> so yeah, most of my advice was stupid anyway
2010-11-11T20:53:16  <j3camero> Anyways yeah. You guys would probably be interested in seeing this: http://ai-contest.com/game_stats.php
2010-11-11T20:53:31  <sigh> more servers?
2010-11-11T20:53:33  <davidjliu> woaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah
2010-11-11T20:53:35  <j3camero> Yeah
2010-11-11T20:53:36  <antimatroid> nice
2010-11-11T20:53:37  <sigh> :)
2010-11-11T20:53:41  <j3camero> And they should stay up from now on.
2010-11-11T20:53:53  <j3camero> Instead of just burning out 30 minutes after each time I kick them.
2010-11-11T20:53:54  <sigh> cool
2010-11-11T20:53:58  <davidjliu> woooooooooooooooah
2010-11-11T20:53:59  <antimatroid> j3camero: what about maps? :P
2010-11-11T20:54:03  <j3camero> We're at 90 games per minute and climbing.
2010-11-11T20:54:19  <davidjliu> @roulette
2010-11-11T20:54:19  *** davidjliu was kicked by contestbot (BANG!)
2010-11-11T20:54:20  * contestbot reloads and spins the chambers.
2010-11-11T20:54:24  *** bhasker_ <bhasker_!~bhasker@nat/yahoo/x-wxwvfpyfpckrkvea> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2010-11-11T20:54:26  <antimatroid> haha
2010-11-11T20:54:30  <j3camero> antimatroid: I looked at the img you sent me. What property of the maps are you highlighting there?
2010-11-11T20:54:37  *** davidjliu <davidjliu!473a6d0e@gateway/web/freenode/ip.71.58.109.14> has joined #aichallenge
2010-11-11T20:54:50  <antimatroid> the fact that the line joining home planets doesn't intersect the centre planet
2010-11-11T20:55:09  <j3camero> Ahhh
2010-11-11T20:55:13  <antimatroid> the symmetry is done the other direction too, as radial symmetry doesn't work with randomly chosen starting angles
2010-11-11T20:55:47  <j3camero> The left map seems to not have this property.
2010-11-11T20:56:00  <antimatroid> the left map is from the official site
2010-11-11T20:56:06  <j3camero> But the right one does.
2010-11-11T20:56:09  <antimatroid> i'm pretty sure none of the older maps have that property
2010-11-11T20:56:15  <antimatroid> it's to show the difference
2010-11-11T20:56:31  <sigh> current generator is all 180 degree rotation
2010-11-11T20:56:53  <antimatroid> i'm interested in having some of these different maps included, although some people seem to rely on it being like the first map
2010-11-11T20:57:08  <j3camero> Fuck em
2010-11-11T20:57:12  <sigh> I don't think people should be able to rely on that
2010-11-11T20:57:12  <sigh> :S
2010-11-11T20:57:12  <j3camero> Your maps are better
2010-11-11T20:57:13  <sigh> :D
2010-11-11T20:57:21  *** wh1teside_ <wh1teside_!~admin@adsl-76-202-215-207.dsl.emhril.sbcglobal.net> has joined #aichallenge
2010-11-11T20:57:42  <j3camero> The map on the right is not quite symmetric right?
2010-11-11T20:57:52  <antimatroid> it is, jbotmanager just sucks at drawing them
2010-11-11T20:57:57  <sigh> no, the line isn't quite on the axis
2010-11-11T20:58:04  <sigh> it is symettric
2010-11-11T20:58:20  <antimatroid> sigh: look at the 89+4 planets near home
2010-11-11T20:58:34  <sigh> ah, yeah
2010-11-11T20:58:40  <j3camero> It looks like red is closer to the centre than green. That could be an issue. Or is it just an optical illusion?
2010-11-11T20:58:45  <antimatroid> jbotmanager just sucks at drawing, i've tested maps both when generating them and counting turns in the program to see fleets actually take the same time
2010-11-11T20:58:55  <sigh> aspect ratio, I think
2010-11-11T20:58:59  <sigh> ?
2010-11-11T20:59:00  <antimatroid> it's jBotManager not rendering them properly i think
2010-11-11T20:59:23  <j3camero> Ah okay. So the map actually is symmatric?
2010-11-11T20:59:32  <antimatroid> j3camero: there are 1000 of them here http://tinyurl.com/antimaps (59 looks like a space invader)
2010-11-11T20:59:56  <j3camero> There's nothing special or well thought out about the current map generator. I wrote it on a greyhound bus on day when I was first starting to think about Galcon. It really wasn't supposed to last this long.
2010-11-11T20:59:57  <antimatroid> but i wouldn't add those to official ones, one would prefer to test to make sure they are perfect first
2010-11-11T21:00:14  <antimatroid> that's why i wrote this, no one else was
2010-11-11T21:00:43  <j3camero> I am sure they're better than what we have. What we have was never supposed to get past the stage of "I need a map with more than 2 planets just to make sure the game logic is right"
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2010-11-11T21:01:27  <antimatroid> what about final tournament, could we have an entirely new set of maps generated just for that?
2010-11-11T21:01:41  <j3camero> I think that would be wise, yes.
2010-11-11T21:01:47  <sigh> antimatroid++
2010-11-11T21:02:05  <j3camero> Can you create a branch in the repo and replace the map generator with yours? Put it up for review and I'll review it.
2010-11-11T21:02:32  <antimatroid> i wouldn't have a clue how to do that :P plus it's in c++ atm, and i think janzert is right that it should be in python
2010-11-11T21:03:13  <j3camero> If that's what he wants that's cool.
2010-11-11T21:03:22  <antimatroid> there will need be decisions made on parameters too
2010-11-11T21:03:29  <j3camero> Python gives me a boner, but C++ will always be my native language.
2010-11-11T21:04:29  <j3camero> It's not as rigorous or scientific as you think. I'm pretty sure that anything would be better than what we have now.
2010-11-11T21:04:53  <j3camero> Oh, we did promise people that the minimum travel time would be 2.0. We gotta make sure we abide by that.
2010-11-11T21:05:03  <antimatroid> i think they need to be made for: min growth, max growth, min starting distance between home planets, min distance between planets, max distance between planets (preferably this would be defined as an even number) and i think 23 planets should be kept
2010-11-11T21:05:21  <antimatroid> if i allow 0 growth, i seem to get quite a few of them
2010-11-11T21:05:41  <j3camero> I hate 0 growth.
2010-11-11T21:05:51  <j3camero> I know they have a use and all, but they don't visualize well.
2010-11-11T21:05:55  <sigh> I second the motion to remove 0 growth
2010-11-11T21:06:02  <antimatroid> keep max 5 growth?
2010-11-11T21:06:08  <j3camero> Sure.
2010-11-11T21:06:15  <j3camero> I see no reason to change the max 5 growth
2010-11-11T21:06:27  <j3camero> Min travel time == 2.0 is improtant.
2010-11-11T21:06:30  <antimatroid> what about starting ships at a neutral? 0-100? 1-100?
2010-11-11T21:06:40  <j3camero> Cartesian distance has to be > 1.0 in other words.
2010-11-11T21:06:46  <antimatroid> j3camero: yep
2010-11-11T21:06:51  <sigh> antimatroid: I would support changing it
2010-11-11T21:07:01  <antimatroid> sigh: changing what?
2010-11-11T21:07:19  <j3camero> I'm not sure. Check and see what  I put in the existing map gen for the population of neutral planets.
2010-11-11T21:07:28  <sigh> oh sorry, thought you were talking about starting planet ships
2010-11-11T21:07:39  <antimatroid> no, that is 100 ships and 5 growth, i'm not altering that
2010-11-11T21:07:45  <sigh> ok, sure
2010-11-11T21:07:57  <j3camero> I picked 100 for the home planets starting population because I think that's what Galcon uses.
2010-11-11T21:08:05  <sigh> ahh
2010-11-11T21:09:09  <antimatroid> the other thing is, currently there is always one planet that starts an equal distance from both players, i can change that to being a randomly chosen uneven number of planets at an even starting distance
2010-11-11T21:09:10  <eburnette_> don't forget to do adjustments to avoid rounding errors
2010-11-11T21:09:35  <antimatroid> eburnette_: i only add a pair of neutrals if their distance and their distance to all other planets is >= min distance
2010-11-11T21:09:46  <j3camero> Existing map generator: http://code.google.com/p/ai-contest/source/browse/trunk/planet_wars/backend/map_generator.py
2010-11-11T21:10:01  <sigh> antimatroid: eburnette_ is talking about distances that are too close to an integer
2010-11-11T21:10:03  <sigh> I think
2010-11-11T21:10:49  <j3camero> I thought about that before. Could be a good idea.
2010-11-11T21:10:50  <antimatroid> wait, can someone explain that further
2010-11-11T21:11:24  <j3camero> If the distance between two planets is 4.99999999 it could cause problems because some languages might think the travel time is 5 and others might think its 4.
2010-11-11T21:11:41  <eburnette_> PlanetWars.Distance takes ceil of the real distance, so yeah what j3camero said
2010-11-11T21:11:55  <sigh> yup, so check if distance is greater than epsilon of an integer
2010-11-11T21:11:59  <antimatroid> yep
2010-11-11T21:12:00  <antimatroid> easy
2010-11-11T21:12:12  <j3camero> Like if you have two planets: one at (0,0) and another at (sqrt(2), sqrt(2))
2010-11-11T21:12:13  <eburnette_> from every planet to every other planet
2010-11-11T21:12:14  <antimatroid> alright, i'ma download python and write it up
2010-11-11T21:12:27  <j3camero> Sick.
2010-11-11T21:12:30  *** Bobng <Bobng!~T@78.144.194.163> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2010-11-11T21:12:30  <antimatroid> does python generate random doubles for me easily?
2010-11-11T21:12:37  <j3camero> Do you see the existing map gen?
2010-11-11T21:12:41  <antimatroid> yeah
2010-11-11T21:12:49  <sigh> you should be able to just copy most of that :)
2010-11-11T21:12:56  <j3camero> import random; r = random.random(); print r;
2010-11-11T21:13:20  <eburnette_> and it should keep the part where it makes planets not be on top of each other (not just starting planets)
2010-11-11T21:13:33  <sigh> eburnette_: yeah... antimatroid already has that
2010-11-11T21:13:34  <antimatroid> that should happen from min sitance
2010-11-11T21:13:43  <antimatroid> distance*
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2010-11-11T21:13:55  <j3camero> Python's random is so bitchin. You can even do "list = [2, 3, 5, 7, 11, 13, 17]; r = random.choose(list); print r;"
2010-11-11T21:14:07  <antimatroid> oh, one last thing, i am still allowed to compete and write the used map generator yes?
2010-11-11T21:14:19  <j3camero> Yeah
2010-11-11T21:14:21  <eburnette_> lol
2010-11-11T21:14:24  <sigh> :P
2010-11-11T21:14:32  <antimatroid> just making sure :)
2010-11-11T21:14:45  <j3camero> You're only banhammered if you have root on a contest server or something like that. Contributing to the open source project is fine.
2010-11-11T21:14:45  <sigh> that would be the ultimate troll
2010-11-11T21:15:01  <j3camero> aha sigh
2010-11-11T21:15:14  <j3camero> Thanks for the map gen dude. Now gtfo.
2010-11-11T21:15:57  <antimatroid> what's the best ide for python?
2010-11-11T21:16:14  <eburnette_> edlin
2010-11-11T21:16:38  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4390), asavis(4225), george(4207), Raschi(4193), shangas(4155), _Astek_(4114), oldman(4112), GreenTea(4105), dmj111(4077), Slin-.-(4019)
2010-11-11T21:16:53  <j3camero> emacs of course
2010-11-11T21:17:05  <j3camero> also notepad.exe
2010-11-11T21:17:18  <sigh> antimatroid: unless you have a preferred text editor, just use the on that comes with python (idle)
2010-11-11T21:17:39  <j3camero> But real men use emacs.
2010-11-11T21:18:13  <sigh> I'm sure emacs has a very nice python interpreter, but hte guy just needs a text editor
2010-11-11T21:18:43  <sigh> :P
2010-11-11T21:18:53  <j3camero> Oh snap.
2010-11-11T21:18:59  <j3camero> you guys are too mature for trolling.
2010-11-11T21:19:01  <j3camero> Damn.
2010-11-11T21:19:04  <j3camero> http://jpcameron.com/blog/?p=123
2010-11-11T21:22:33  <j3camero> 93 games per minute and rising. Yes!
2010-11-11T21:23:00  <j3camero> The servers should crap out soon. But we're gonna set up the server-kicking script as a cron job soon.
2010-11-11T21:23:15  <sigh> why do they crap out?
2010-11-11T21:28:03  <antimatroid> hmm, how do i compile a python file? :P
2010-11-11T21:29:18  <antimatroid> ie. command?
2010-11-11T21:29:54  *** JensTi <JensTi!~jens@109.236.132.113> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.)
2010-11-11T21:30:23  <sigh> just run: python filename.py
2010-11-11T21:30:29  <antimatroid> oh, that's neat, i just run the file
2010-11-11T21:30:35  <sigh> yes :P
2010-11-11T21:30:41  <antimatroid> welcome to python aha
2010-11-11T21:32:14  <sigh> what did you end up using to write it?
2010-11-11T21:32:20  <antimatroid> c++
2010-11-11T21:32:39  <sigh> no, what did you use to write the python script?
2010-11-11T21:32:47  <antimatroid> codeblocks aha
2010-11-11T21:33:58  <sigh> ok, don't know that one... if it is a decent editor you should be able to run the script without leaving it :)
2010-11-11T21:35:27  <antimatroid> oh, what's a good minimum starting distance?
2010-11-11T21:35:50  <sigh> I'd wait for McLeopold's opinion :P
2010-11-11T21:36:31  <antimatroid> yep, it's easily changed, i'll leave it at 7 for the moment
2010-11-11T21:36:50  <sigh> what is it in the official?
2010-11-11T21:38:12  <sigh> repo
2010-11-11T21:38:16  <sigh> @repo
2010-11-11T21:38:17  <contestbot> sigh: repo = http://code.google.com/p/ai-contest/
2010-11-11T21:38:40  <antimatroid> sigh: i think it's different, in that you aren't now on opposing sides of the map
2010-11-11T21:53:01  <antimatroid> does math.sin/cos take arguments in degrees or radians?
2010-11-11T21:54:14  <sigh> radians o_O
2010-11-11T21:54:23  <sigh> what kind of crazy lib would take degrees
2010-11-11T21:54:40  <antimatroid> hmm :P well i hate converting
2010-11-11T21:55:11  <sigh> math.radians
2010-11-11T22:15:10  <eburnette_> Hope you don't take out 0 growth planets, esp. at center
2010-11-11T22:15:38  <sigh> why?
2010-11-11T22:15:43  <antimatroid> ?
2010-11-11T22:15:48  <sigh> (btw, currently 0-growth can only occur in the center)
2010-11-11T22:15:58  <eburnette_> they make a nice launching point, like on map 1
2010-11-11T22:16:11  <eburnette_> and some bots don't handle them well
2010-11-11T22:16:15  <antimatroid> i will give you 0 centre planets for the moment
2010-11-11T22:16:39  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4356), asavis(4284), george(4216), shangas(4198), Raschi(4155), oldman(4147), GreenTea(4096), _Astek_(4089), dmj111(4077), _iouri_(4040)
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2010-11-11T22:28:03  <Prillicy> I understand we're permitted to use our own files, does this mean I may store information in a file and write to it during the game?
2010-11-11T22:28:37  <janzert> no, writing to files is specifically prohibited in the rules
2010-11-11T22:28:50  <Prillicy> good thing I asked then :)
2010-11-11T22:28:53  <janzert> you can upload any precomputed data files you want though
2010-11-11T22:29:12  <janzert> as long as you stay under the upload size limit anyway :)
2010-11-11T22:29:14  <Prillicy> no file can predetermine the average distance of the planets before the game begins though
2010-11-11T22:29:24  <Prillicy> which means I have to do so via a nested loop
2010-11-11T22:29:34  <Prillicy> every round
2010-11-11T22:29:51  <Prillicy> unless I'm mistaken about how the game works
2010-11-11T22:29:53  <janzert> just do it on the first move
2010-11-11T22:30:03  <janzert> the bot keeps running for the whole game
2010-11-11T22:30:11  <Prillicy> that doesn't make sense
2010-11-11T22:30:34  <Prillicy> ah, I c
2010-11-11T22:30:36  <Prillicy> thanks
2010-11-11T22:34:08  <Prillicy> I thought it was run once each round
2010-11-11T22:34:17  <Prillicy> a more challenging, but less logical test for an ai
2010-11-11T22:36:44  <antimatroid> janzert: i'm about halfway through rewriting the map generator in python
2010-11-11T22:36:52  <janzert> sweet
2010-11-11T22:36:55  <antimatroid> i'm learning python as i do it though, so it's not happening terrible fast
2010-11-11T22:37:35  <janzert> half way already is pretty good
2010-11-11T22:38:23  <antimatroid> i'm using the old one as a base
2010-11-11T22:39:13  <antimatroid> what would people like as a map radius?
2010-11-11T22:39:17  <antimatroid> it's currently set at 12
2010-11-11T22:39:21  <antimatroid> so max distance is 24
2010-11-11T22:39:32  <sigh> current seems good
2010-11-11T22:39:51  <antimatroid> the maps i genreated last night had like max distance of 40
2010-11-11T22:39:51  <eburnette_> keep whatever the current generator does
2010-11-11T22:39:55  <antimatroid> okay
2010-11-11T22:40:51  <eburnette_> some algs slow down if map gets bigger because of distances till ships lands, also some bots have hardcoded future time lookaheads (like mine)
2010-11-11T22:40:52  <antimatroid> i think the map generating code used for final maps should be open to anyone to view as well
2010-11-11T22:41:05  <antimatroid> i think that's already the case yeah?
2010-11-11T22:41:11  <janzert> yes
2010-11-11T22:41:14  <eburnette_> yes
2010-11-11T22:41:28  <eburnette_> * wishes he could get rid of the _ after his name
2010-11-11T22:41:31  <antimatroid> i wasn't sure cause not everyone can see the discussions
2010-11-11T22:44:05  <Zannick> leave the max radius at 12, yeah
2010-11-11T22:49:27  <antimatroid> done
2010-11-11T22:55:03  <Prillicy> am I the only one who's noticed a random factor involved in the battles?
2010-11-11T22:55:19  <antimatroid> what do you mean by random factor?
2010-11-11T22:55:28  <Prillicy> playing the  same battle multiple times occasionally turns out a different result
2010-11-11T22:55:34  <sigh> Prillicy: games are deterministic unless you are explicitly using random numbers
2010-11-11T22:55:39  <antimatroid> are you using a tree?
2010-11-11T22:55:49  <Prillicy> no, basic formulas
2010-11-11T22:55:56  <antimatroid> there should be no difference
2010-11-11T22:56:05  <antimatroid> although the original visualiser was buggy
2010-11-11T22:56:19  <sigh> Prillicy: never seen that, and I use that fact that it is deterministic in my testing
2010-11-11T22:56:21  <eburnette_> there's an article on deterministic bots somewhere
2010-11-11T22:57:01  <Zannick> bots can be nondeterministic based on cpu time they're given
2010-11-11T22:57:29  <Zannick> this is especially true of traditional minimax chess bots
2010-11-11T22:57:42  <sigh> Zannick: sure, but mine will just timeout at the moment and that is easy to detect :)
2010-11-11T22:58:08  <Zannick> sure
2010-11-11T22:59:10  <Prillicy> I just know that I saw it with mybot, even the testbotts when facing each other would occasionally result in (while similar) different results, and often a different winner
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2010-11-11T22:59:40  <eburnette_> hey that's clever, my bot is trying to use the oponents ships to attack him
2010-11-11T22:59:51  <sigh> eh?
2010-11-11T23:00:03  <eburnette_> funny bug
2010-11-11T23:00:24  <sigh> ahh :)
2010-11-11T23:00:31  <Prillicy> I'm still in the process of creating a value formula
2010-11-11T23:00:34  <sigh> I thought you had found some new strategy :P
2010-11-11T23:00:56  <Zannick> yeah, corrupting the server state to change his fleets into yours
2010-11-11T23:01:06  <Zannick> that would be a pretty useful strategy
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2010-11-11T23:02:10  <codefun64> Anyone know how the points system works?
2010-11-11T23:02:40  <codefun64> I've won 6 battles and lost 1 but haven't advanced in the ranks almost at all, whereas other people have done similarly well and gotten to like rank 11 etc.
2010-11-11T23:03:10  <janzert> it depends on who you won and lost against
2010-11-11T23:03:35  <eburnette_> just win against bocsi and you'll be fine
2010-11-11T23:03:41  <janzert> yep :)
2010-11-11T23:04:22  <codefun64> Wishful thinking - my bot's not even done yet :)
2010-11-11T23:04:25  *** Prillicy <Prillicy!~chatzilla@97.104.19.221> has quit IRC (Quit: I be bangin')
2010-11-11T23:04:35  <codefun64> Plus I dropped like 3k ranks with updates that failed miserably -_-
2010-11-11T23:05:27  <janzert> yeah, disadvantage of rating of an old submission being used to start off a new one
2010-11-11T23:06:09  <sigh> janzert: I thought you weren't doing that atm?
2010-11-11T23:07:00  <codefun64> Dear god I hate filter keys.
2010-11-11T23:07:01  <janzert> the new matchup code that went in today uses an old submissions rating for a new unranked submission to determine an appropriate pairing
2010-11-11T23:07:12  <codefun64> was listening to music then BEEEEEEP wanna turn filter keys on?
2010-11-11T23:07:15  <sigh> ah, cool :)
2010-11-11T23:07:39  <codefun64> That sucks, Janzert o_O
2010-11-11T23:08:14  <janzert> so it doesn't really keep the old ranking at all but it does tend to pair it at a more appropriate spot in the rankings initially
2010-11-11T23:08:45  <janzert> codefun64: heh, you weren't around to hear all the, err, whining about the old method
2010-11-11T23:09:14  <sigh> janzert: one way around that disadvantage is to stick to the old method for bots below the average
2010-11-11T23:09:44  <janzert> or just push everyone back towards the center instead of at their old ranking
2010-11-11T23:10:11  <sigh> but isn't that what people were complaining about?
2010-11-11T23:10:17  <janzert> but it still shouldn't take a bot that long to climb back up anyway
2010-11-11T23:10:33  <eburnette_> does it still start at bottom most ranking?
2010-11-11T23:10:36  <codefun64> If the bot is *good* >_> <_<
2010-11-11T23:10:38  <sigh> it took my bot over 24 hours to settle
2010-11-11T23:10:48  <janzert> before it always dropped you in at the same rank
2010-11-11T23:11:22  <sigh> I assume that was 0 elo (before offset)?
2010-11-11T23:11:23  <eburnette_> didn't it used to start you at bottom?
2010-11-11T23:11:37  <sigh> nah, it started you in the middle of the pack
2010-11-11T23:12:31  <eburnette_> and now it starts you where you were? or it starts you in the middle and pairs you with a battle at where you were?
2010-11-11T23:12:49  <codefun64> I think it pairs you up with someone close to your previous rank
2010-11-11T23:13:00  <sigh> yeah, that's the idea... I think
2010-11-11T23:13:05  <janzert> codefun64: yes, it does now
2010-11-11T23:13:17  <janzert> but not before today
2010-11-11T23:13:40  <eburnette_> what happens if you lose the first battle?
2010-11-11T23:13:57  <sigh> then you are not worthy!
2010-11-11T23:14:00  <janzert> ? it's going to drop your rank
2010-11-11T23:14:03  <codefun64> What I'd like to know is why janzert 6 wins and a runtime error gets me only from rank 3900 to  3647... seems to be a little slow to me
2010-11-11T23:14:10  <codefun64> wtf?
2010-11-11T23:14:15  <codefun64> I did NOT type janzert's name in there...
2010-11-11T23:14:23  <janzert> hehe
2010-11-11T23:14:30  <Zannick> this sentence has janzert six words
2010-11-11T23:14:35  <codefun64> stupid <tab> key must've cycled through names -_-
2010-11-11T23:15:08  <janzert> because the bots you are playing against at the moment are really bad and you lost against one
2010-11-11T23:15:23  <janzert> so the rating system will take a while to let you overcome that lost
2010-11-11T23:15:44  <eburnette_> so let's say ranks go from 1 (bocsi) to 3000, and I was at 100 and resubmit. I start at 1500th place and get paired with somebody at 100th place. If I win, I jump up close to 100th place, and if I lose I go to 2000th place?
2010-11-11T23:15:47  <codefun64> Well that's another thing, I think it's annoying to have a runtime error set you back in ranks when you've had other battles that don't have that glitch
2010-11-11T23:15:57  <janzert> my general impression is that most of the bots down there have lots and lots of games so a very certain ranking
2010-11-11T23:16:09  <codefun64> I also find it interesting it even had that error, it didn't give me any on my end and the other battles didn't glitch >_>
2010-11-11T23:16:15  <janzert> since they were basically just submitted and then abandoned
2010-11-11T23:16:21  <Zannick> the thing is you don't go up or down ranks based on your opponent's rank on one match
2010-11-11T23:16:40  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(4352), asavis(4297), george(4202), shangas(4194), oldman(4154), Raschi(4150), GreenTea(4095), dmj111(4086), _Astek_(4065), _iouri_(4055)
2010-11-11T23:16:47  <Zannick> this is a common misconception
2010-11-11T23:16:56  <Zannick> elo is not per-game, it's overall
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2010-11-11T23:17:12  <codefun64> then my rank should be awesome  not pitiful! :D
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2010-11-11T23:17:29  <Zannick> so if you resubmit, and are paired against someone ranked 100, and win, then elo sees only that
2010-11-11T23:17:35  <Zannick> you weren't really at rank 1500 before
2010-11-11T23:17:47  <Zannick> plus it evaluates everyone at the same time
2010-11-11T23:18:01  <Zannick> so 6 wins against people with lots of losses isn't going to boost you very much
2010-11-11T23:18:04  <codefun64> oh wait 7 wins - missed one...
2010-11-11T23:18:08  <codefun64> I see
2010-11-11T23:18:10  <eburnette_> Ok, so suppose boscsi resubmits and happens to get unlucky and lose his first battle, how long does it take him to get back to 1st place?
2010-11-11T23:18:27  <Zannick> who knows
2010-11-11T23:18:29  <janzert> depends on who he lost to
2010-11-11T23:18:32  <antimatroid> not very long
2010-11-11T23:18:46  <Zannick> depends on who he loses to, and who he beats
2010-11-11T23:19:01  <janzert> if he somehow lost to to the 4000th rank bot then a very long time
2010-11-11T23:19:20  <codefun64> *makes him lose to the 4000th bot*
2010-11-11T23:19:22  <sigh> janzert: presumably the first game is against someone high ranked, say top 10
2010-11-11T23:19:22  <codefun64> :D
2010-11-11T23:19:33  <codefun64> Well if it's with George he'd probably lose
2010-11-11T23:19:37  <janzert> sigh: then probably not that long
2010-11-11T23:19:37  <Zannick> only if he gets paired against people all the way down there
2010-11-11T23:20:00  <Zannick> but it really depends on what bayeselo determines for him
2010-11-11T23:20:07  <janzert> Zannick: right it would be quite unlikely for him to even get that pairing of course
2010-11-11T23:20:25  <janzert> the only history bayeselo has at that point is that one game
2010-11-11T23:20:36  * sigh offers a sacrifice to the bayeselo black box... please look upon me favorably
2010-11-11T23:21:01  <codefun64> who/what is bayeselo?
2010-11-11T23:21:12  <sigh> the scoring algorithm
2010-11-11T23:21:14  <eburnette_> there was probably a whole discussion about this but why not keep the old history?
2010-11-11T23:21:16  <codefun64> Ah
2010-11-11T23:21:17  <Zannick> the arbiter
2010-11-11T23:21:35  <codefun64> "What would you have your arbiter do?"
2010-11-11T23:21:44  <Zannick> an impartial judge who cannot be bribed
2010-11-11T23:21:50  <Zannick> except by admins
2010-11-11T23:21:57  <sigh> i was about to say
2010-11-11T23:21:58  <eburnette_> (and virgins)
2010-11-11T23:22:04  <codefun64> o_O;
2010-11-11T23:22:12  <janzert> eburnette_: because it's a different bot, if it has a fatal bug and crashes 50% of the time it doesn't deserve to get credit for all the wins of the last bot
2010-11-11T23:22:35  <sigh> and it will screw up the ranks for other people
2010-11-11T23:22:56  <Zannick> if bosci resubmits copybot, it doesn't deserve to keep first...much less top 200
2010-11-11T23:23:13  <davidjliu> codefun64: it seems like you timeout on maps where there is a zero-growth planet. Do you ever divide by a planet's growth rate?
2010-11-11T23:23:48  <eburnette_> Well hypothetically sure but that seems unlikely, and even it it happened the new bot would start dropping
2010-11-11T23:24:14  <sigh> eburnette_: but then it will also affect anyone who has played bocsimacko
2010-11-11T23:24:36  <eburnette_> oic
2010-11-11T23:24:37  <sigh> inconsistent bots in general will wreak havoc on the rankings
2010-11-11T23:25:40  <davidjliu> like ObligatoryShampoo, who seemingly can lose to anybody and beat anybody on TCP
2010-11-11T23:26:17  <davidjliu> did we ever figure out who Shampoo was, btw?
2010-11-11T23:26:34  <janzert> also bayeselo in general does not handle a single entity that changes strength over the course of the game history it is given exceptionally well
2010-11-11T23:26:53  <janzert> one of it's basic assumptions is that this does not occur actually
2010-11-11T23:26:56  <eburnette_> if (random() > .25) win() else lose();
2010-11-11T23:27:07  <sigh> janzert: you don't have decay over time?
2010-11-11T23:27:09  <Zannick> that's not a very good line
2010-11-11T23:27:15  <Zannick> should be .3, maybe .4
2010-11-11T23:27:19  <Zannick> >.>
2010-11-11T23:27:38  <janzert> bayeselo doesn't have a concept of time at all in it's calculations
2010-11-11T23:27:44  <sigh> oh, ok
2010-11-11T23:27:44  <eburnette_> not going to complain about my missing semi? :)
2010-11-11T23:28:22  <Zannick> is there still a limit on the games it considers? iirc, only from the last 3 days
2010-11-11T23:28:31  <janzert> yes, there is
2010-11-11T23:28:36  <sigh> eburnette_: care to share your win() method?
2010-11-11T23:28:53  <janzert> I'd like to try and get rid of that limit in the next week
2010-11-11T23:29:05  <eburnette_> I had one but my power went out and I didn't have a backup sorry
2010-11-11T23:29:27  <janzert> but database performance is a huge issue, it already takes 4 minutes to query the 3 days of games
2010-11-11T23:29:33  <Zannick> void win() { solve_game(); }
2010-11-11T23:30:06  <janzert> wow, 164 games per minute
2010-11-11T23:31:08  <sigh> void solve_game() { win(); }
2010-11-11T23:31:32  <janzert> I love the gpm when it's going through the bottom of the rankings :P
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2010-11-11T23:33:56  <codefun64> My rank is still the same after reuploading code with a fix >_>
2010-11-11T23:35:23  <sigh> codefun64: that's just to start you off... wait for some games
2010-11-11T23:36:24  <janzert> the rankings only update every 10 minutes btw, so don't expect instantaneous change after a game either
2010-11-11T23:36:34  <janzert> 10 minutes currently that is
2010-11-11T23:36:36  <Zannick> i know i'm not working on improving my bot...but i like watching it when it wins
2010-11-11T23:36:39  <Zannick> makes me so produ
2010-11-11T23:36:41  <Zannick> proud *
2010-11-11T23:36:43  <codefun64> Why not? I want my instant gratification now! ;)
2010-11-11T23:36:43  <Zannick> http://ai-contest.com/visualizer.php?game_id=6974215
2010-11-11T23:37:09  <eburnette_> tcp = instant
2010-11-11T23:44:32  <antimatroid> i think i'm done
2010-11-11T23:49:12  <antimatroid> http://codepad.org/tTLNbALt anyone want to take a look at that for me?
2010-11-11T23:51:06  <sigh> antimatroid: you random.randint instead of rolling your own :P
2010-11-11T23:51:24  <antimatroid> ? i just used what jeff cameron did for random ints
2010-11-11T23:52:31  <janzert> I think I saw something weird before getting a random int somewhere in the codebase
2010-11-11T23:52:40  <sigh> oh sorry, you wanted doubles
2010-11-11T23:52:50  <sigh> then you both should have used random.uniform
2010-11-11T23:52:53  <sigh> :P
2010-11-11T23:53:06  <antimatroid> does it matter now? :P
2010-11-11T23:53:26  <Zannick> why have a min starting distance instead of comparing p1 and p2 and p for mindistance?
2010-11-11T23:54:08  <sigh> I think he wanted a larger distance for starting planets
2010-11-11T23:54:18  <sigh> over and above the min_distance
2010-11-11T23:54:33  <antimatroid> it can be made smaller, but given you aren't on opposite sides of the map, i think if you start too close the game might be a trivial draw
2010-11-11T23:54:47  <antimatroid> not necessarily on opposite sides of the map*
2010-11-11T23:54:58  <Zannick> i guess...?
2010-11-11T23:55:16  <sigh> I think it's a wise decision
2010-11-11T23:55:19  <Zannick> the minimum on the other maps would be 4, i think, since it's at least 2 to center
2010-11-11T23:55:24  <Zannick> i think 7 is a bit much
2010-11-11T23:55:52  <janzert> any time the home planets are closer than cost of the nearest neutral / growth rate it's a 'trivial' draw right?
2010-11-11T23:56:01  <Zannick> ooh, also
2010-11-11T23:56:05  <janzert> but it seems an awful lot of bots still don't recognize that
2010-11-11T23:56:16  <Zannick> random() generates numbers in [0,1)
2010-11-11T23:56:27  <Zannick> so you can use 360 instead of 359.999
2010-11-11T23:56:33  <Zannick> and not hit 360
2010-11-11T23:56:40  <antimatroid> last time maps that resulted in lots of draws were removed from the pool of maps
2010-11-11T23:56:45  <antimatroid> we could reduce it and do something like that again
2010-11-11T23:57:01  <janzert> if I have the formula right above then instead of a hardcoded distance for the home planets you could base it off that
2010-11-11T23:57:01  <antimatroid> it will never get to 360?
2010-11-11T23:57:23  <antimatroid> okay cool
2010-11-11T23:57:30  <janzert> right random.random will never return 1
2010-11-11T23:57:39  <Zannick> your random function only returns max if random() returns 1, which won't happen
2010-11-11T23:57:58  <antimatroid> yep
2010-11-11T23:58:42  <Zannick> oh
2010-11-11T23:58:51  <sigh> Zannick: interesting... reading the python docs on ranodm.uniform
2010-11-11T23:58:58  <sigh> http://docs.python.org/library/random.html
2010-11-11T23:59:05  <Zannick> why the check that p1[x] isn't within epsilon of round(p1[x])?
2010-11-11T23:59:34  <sigh> "The end-point value b may or may not be included in the range depending on floating-point rounding in the equation a + (b-a) * random()." << python library is not willing to make the claim you are :)