2010-11-24T00:00:05  <eburnette> You didn't expand quite as fast as Pichu did
2010-11-24T00:00:17  <rebelxt_> davidjliu: 200 move games are usually stand offs. do you get beat on initial expansion by a few ships?
2010-11-24T00:00:32  <davidjliu> usually that's what happens
2010-11-24T00:00:33  <eburnette> Pichu got 3 ships ahead
2010-11-24T00:00:40  <davidjliu> I think I'm very slow on the first move
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2010-11-24T00:01:23  <amriedle> donn donnn donnn
2010-11-24T00:01:50  <rebelxt_> davidjliu: looking a few turns ahead to see if it's best to wait a turn or a few to capture a better planet in the future compared to the one you can capture right now?
2010-11-24T00:02:38  <davidjliu> that's what it's supposed to do, but I don't think it's really fully functional
2010-11-24T00:03:02  <rebelxt_> davidjliu: mine is still buggy too ;)
2010-11-24T00:04:07  <eburnette> davidjliu: it looks good to me, but you can always tweak your look ahead horizon on that first move depending on distance to enemy or symmetry type
2010-11-24T00:04:09  <rebelxt_> oldsanta must be last official submission ;-)
2010-11-24T00:04:30  <davidjliu> rebelxt_: indeed
2010-11-24T00:05:06  <davidjliu> or rather the previous official submission
2010-11-24T00:05:09  <davidjliu> latest isn't as good, I think
2010-11-24T00:05:32  <davidjliu> eburnette: It doesn't have any strict horizon... it does some hocus-pocus, I think
2010-11-24T00:07:27  <rebelxt_> davidjliu: nice expansion here - http://zeroviz.us:8080/canvas.cgi?game_id=21958 - unlike my bot that went after the middle too early
2010-11-24T00:07:55  <eburnette> These new maps are messing me up, expansion assumptions don't hold any more
2010-11-24T00:07:58  <davidjliu> heh, thanks
2010-11-24T00:09:07  <bhasker> http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=1177768
2010-11-24T00:09:13  <bhasker> do you think one could get the 17 too?
2010-11-24T00:10:07  <davidjliu> yeah, you both should've send out 18 ships on the second turn
2010-11-24T00:10:24  <bhasker> yea i am guessing thats possible, though not sure why my bot didnt do it
2010-11-24T00:10:35  <eburnette> maybe you should get it first
2010-11-24T00:11:06  <rebelxt_> bhasker: is that home planet distance 6 or 7?
2010-11-24T00:11:11  <davidjliu> uh-oh, bot is going into a lose-storm
2010-11-24T00:11:16  <davidjliu> you coudl actually just send 12 ships there
2010-11-24T00:11:28  <davidjliu> and then take the 5 ships from the growth of the other planet
2010-11-24T00:11:39  <davidjliu> (and the 1 extra you sent)
2010-11-24T00:12:10  <rebelxt_> davidjliu: yeah mine is supposed to do this.. but it did not. so either home planet is exposed or it's a bug
2010-11-24T00:12:31  <bhasker> hmm
2010-11-24T00:13:07  <davidjliu> my bot is very good at capturing neutral planets as quickly as possible... once it puts its mind to doing so
2010-11-24T00:13:17  <davidjliu> but it doesn't always want to capture neutrals
2010-11-24T00:14:16  <eburnette> night all
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2010-11-24T00:15:00  <bhasker> yea same here
2010-11-24T00:19:04  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(3503), bix0r4ever(3387), asavis(3374), Raschi(3346), dmj111(3316), _iouri_(3286), FlagCapper(3221), medrimonia(3171), george(3168), dabino(3160)
2010-11-24T00:19:32  <rebelxt_> bhasker: distance between home planets is 7. that 17 can be captured i think.. a great test case
2010-11-24T00:19:45  <bhasker> yea only reason my bot didnt capture it
2010-11-24T00:19:51  <bhasker> is because it considered it was overcommitted
2010-11-24T00:20:45  <bhasker> i just realized i am not doing a good check for how many new ships i can get before i get attacked
2010-11-24T00:20:48  <zeratul> when you call IssueOrder(), are the planets modified immediately or at the end of your turn?
2010-11-24T00:20:49  <bhasker> when acquiring a neutral
2010-11-24T00:20:58  <bhasker> issue order does not modify anything
2010-11-24T00:22:02  <zeratul> If I do a = p.NumShips(); pw.IssueOrder(blah blah); b = p.NumShips(); all in a row on the same turn, will a and b be the same?
2010-11-24T00:22:41  <bhasker> as far as i know the python starter kit
2010-11-24T00:22:44  <zeratul> trying to figure out if I need to keep track of all of my orders per turn or not
2010-11-24T00:22:44  <bhasker> doesn't update NumShips
2010-11-24T00:23:24  <zeratul> alrighty
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2010-11-24T00:23:44  <zeratul> forgot about the tcp server, s'pose I could have just tested it there
2010-11-24T00:23:48  <rebelxt_> yeah it's a good idea to keep track of everything urself
2010-11-24T00:25:12  <rebelxt_> bhasker: are you going to keep ur bot running overnight?
2010-11-24T00:25:20  <bhasker> yea probably will
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2010-11-24T00:25:39  <bhasker> how do you calculate when you can capture a new neutral
2010-11-24T00:25:43  <rebelxt_> same here.. i'm getting conflicting results from two tcp servers, probably need more time in the saddle
2010-11-24T00:25:45  <bhasker> so in the test case what my bot does is
2010-11-24T00:26:04  <bhasker> i have a check to see if i am already committed to acquiring neutrals
2010-11-24T00:26:16  <bhasker> and if me and enemy are even then i am kind of conservative
2010-11-24T00:26:23  <bhasker> i don't overextend unless i am behind
2010-11-24T00:26:45  <bhasker> and i basically add some # of ships that i think i can get before the enemy attacks from the neutral being acquired
2010-11-24T00:26:54  <rebelxt_> i make a worst case assumption that enemy could try to snipe that neutral from me with all ships.. and take payoff time into account so make sure i can hold it for so many turns after capture
2010-11-24T00:27:04  <bhasker> hmmm
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2010-11-24T00:28:01  <rebelxt_> bhasker: i don't like this code at all but not sure if i manage to re-factor it before cutoff
2010-11-24T00:28:15  <bhasker> heh same here
2010-11-24T00:29:28  <rebelxt_> time to sleep. leaving the bots running. good night all
2010-11-24T00:30:18  <bhasker> nite
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2010-11-24T00:44:48  <bhasker> hmm this version is doing reasonably well
2010-11-24T00:49:44  <bhasker> wth david your bot keeps sending ships back and forth
2010-11-24T00:49:47  <bhasker> http://zeroviz.us:8080/canvas.cgi?game_id=22130
2010-11-24T00:50:04  <bhasker> looks like your bot decides it can't save the planet so it sends everything away
2010-11-24T00:50:23  <bhasker> looks like a lot of bots have the same problem as mine and rebel
2010-11-24T00:50:24  <bhasker> http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=1178425
2010-11-24T00:50:29  <bhasker> another bot that didn't take the 17
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2010-11-24T00:57:22  <bhasker> whats the point of these maps in final list http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=1178548
2010-11-24T00:59:29  <zeratul> playing against rebelxt :P
2010-11-24T01:00:19  <zeratul> well
2010-11-24T01:00:25  <zeratul> debugging against rebelxt* :P
2010-11-24T01:19:15  <contestbot> amstan: Error: There was a problem accessing the interface to ai-contest.com
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2010-11-24T02:19:16  <contestbot> amstan: Error: There was a problem accessing the interface to ai-contest.com
2010-11-24T02:19:47  <amstan> is it just me or is the site superslow?
2010-11-24T02:23:11  <Zannick> mysql_connect error
2010-11-24T02:23:20  <amstan> i'm in the process of restarting mysql
2010-11-24T02:23:23  <amstan> it was hogging the cpu
2010-11-24T02:23:43  <amstan> taking forever for it to restart too
2010-11-24T02:23:47  <Zannick> lol did the reddit effect just take us down?
2010-11-24T02:23:56  <amstan> no way
2010-11-24T02:25:08  <amstan> there..
2010-11-24T02:25:10  <amstan> fixed
2010-11-24T02:25:12  <amstan> @rankings
2010-11-24T02:25:22  <contestbot> amstan: Top 10 players: bocsimacko(3513), bix0r4ever(3365), asavis(3339), dmj111(3320), _iouri_(3313), Raschi(3280), FlagCapper(3203), medrimonia(3190), george(3169), shangas(3151)
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2010-11-24T02:29:50  <amstan> ok... fuck this guy: select username from users where password like "25d55ad283aa400af464c76d713c07ad"
2010-11-24T02:29:53  <amstan> 32 usernames
2010-11-24T02:31:51  <Zannick> o.o
2010-11-24T02:32:25  <amstan> if you are to make 32 accounts, why would you be dumb enough to use the same passwords?
2010-11-24T02:35:14  <Zannick> well, it makes it easy to log in
2010-11-24T02:35:28  <amstan> 12865	Practaway
2010-11-24T02:35:29  <amstan> 12874	HauffPura
2010-11-24T02:35:34  <amstan> might be dublicate as well
2010-11-24T02:36:11  <Zannick> on the other hand, those might be accounts made by people separately with the same password
2010-11-24T02:36:14  <Zannick> eg "password"
2010-11-24T02:36:55  <amstan> Zannick: those 32 accounts? they're all from yandex.ru though
2010-11-24T02:37:05  <Zannick> okay, then that's more unreasonable
2010-11-24T02:37:11  <amstan> and when they play eachother they get symmetric games
2010-11-24T02:37:17  <Zannick> well, sounds more suspicious
2010-11-24T02:37:23  <Zannick> lol
2010-11-24T02:37:42  <amstan> spywareremoval@yandex.ru is not really an email address that someone would use
2010-11-24T02:38:10  <amstan> and then.. why would they set their country to brazil if they're using yandex?
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2010-11-24T03:19:16  <contestbot> amstan: Error: There was a problem accessing the interface to ai-contest.com
2010-11-24T03:20:03  <lavalamp_> man site is slow tonight
2010-11-24T03:21:48  <mega1> speaking of slow, is there anything known about the cpu power of the servers on which the bots run?
2010-11-24T03:22:01  <antimatroid1> don't think so
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2010-11-24T03:27:00  <lavalamp_> @gpm
2010-11-24T03:27:01  <contestbot> lavalamp_: gpm = http://ai-contest.com/game_stats.php
2010-11-24T03:27:43  <lavalamp_> 16gpm with 3 servers.... >.<
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2010-11-24T03:53:52  <antimatroid1> my bot makes some really stupid moves sometimes :\
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2010-11-24T03:55:37  <aerique> As long as mine is doing better than the space.invaders I'm happy to survive being assimilated.
2010-11-24T03:56:57  <antimatroid1> i want top 10 damnit
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2010-11-24T03:59:29  <aerique> I've readjusted my ambitions to the top 100 :-(
2010-11-24T04:09:49  <antimatroid1> well my bot hasn't crashed in like 30 games on tcp
2010-11-24T04:09:53  <antimatroid1> i'll take that as it's fixed
2010-11-24T04:09:57  <antimatroid1> i can finally move on
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2010-11-24T04:19:11  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(3513), bix0r4ever(3363), asavis(3341), dmj111(3319), _iouri_(3313), Raschi(3277), FlagCapper(3201), medrimonia(3190), jimrogerz(3190), george(3170)
2010-11-24T04:22:15  <medrimonia> what's your nickname on tcp antimatroid1?
2010-11-24T04:30:31  <antimatroid1> medrimonia: crashbot
2010-11-24T04:30:44  <antimatroid1> i've been debugging it for a day though
2010-11-24T04:30:56  <antimatroid1> so it has crashed lots and had bits and pieces removed at different times
2010-11-24T04:31:08  <medrimonia> ok I've played some game against you I think^^
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2010-11-24T04:35:19  <medrimonia> my new bot seems to be better than the official one, but I really don't know what it would look like on official
2010-11-24T04:35:47  <antimatroid1> i am still trying to finish mine
2010-11-24T04:35:56  <antimatroid1> i haven't added everything in that is planned yet
2010-11-24T04:36:07  <antimatroid1> and i'm toying with a different game tree idea
2010-11-24T04:36:20  <antimatroid1> i have a few days D:
2010-11-24T04:36:33  <medrimonia> The last few days will be hard
2010-11-24T04:36:51  <medrimonia> I think that this week I'll be hardly sleeping before 4 a.m.
2010-11-24T04:36:53  <antimatroid1> i haven't had a bot up on the main site since the start of the month
2010-11-24T04:37:01  <antimatroid1> i haven't slept before 4am in a while :P
2010-11-24T04:37:08  <antimatroid1> although i've been getting up at like mid day
2010-11-24T04:37:19  <antimatroid1> it's 8:40 pm now
2010-11-24T04:37:55  <medrimonia> I've slept at 5 a.m this morning and wake up really at 9a.m
2010-11-24T04:38:56  <medrimonia> *Watched games in the last 24 hours: 2439*
2010-11-24T04:40:02  <antimatroid1> site crashed?
2010-11-24T04:40:46  <janzert> sort of, amstan's running some pounding queries on it right now
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2010-11-24T04:46:32  <lavalamp_> oh my goodness I'm such a moron... I left logging on in my tcp script... of COURSE it timed out
2010-11-24T04:46:56  <amstan> lol
2010-11-24T04:47:24  <antimatroid1> didn't you say it was timing out on official too?
2010-11-24T04:48:34  <lavalamp_> yeah I think I found that problem
2010-11-24T04:48:41  <mega1> janzert: what kind of cpu power do the servers have?
2010-11-24T04:48:48  <lavalamp_> for testing I had upped my time to .9 seconds
2010-11-24T04:48:59  <lavalamp_> I dropped it back down to .75
2010-11-24T04:49:25  <lavalamp_> now if the server would play any games we will hopefully get under 200
2010-11-24T04:49:49  <lavalamp_> #117 right now but I doubt I'll hold it
2010-11-24T04:49:51  <janzert> mega1: take a look at amazon ec2 high cpu medium instance
2010-11-24T04:49:59  <janzert> that's what all the games run on
2010-11-24T04:50:09  <mega1> only one game at a time?
2010-11-24T04:50:18  <mega1> no other activity?
2010-11-24T04:50:19  <janzert> generally two
2010-11-24T04:50:28  <antimatroid1> isn't one of the servers hosting the site too?
2010-11-24T04:50:34  <janzert> nothing else though
2010-11-24T04:50:38  <janzert> antimatroid1: not anymore
2010-11-24T04:50:41  <antimatroid1> :)
2010-11-24T04:52:08  <mega1> "5 EC2 Compute Units (2 virtual cores with 2.5 EC2 Compute Units each)"
2010-11-24T04:52:25  <mega1> what the heck
2010-11-24T04:52:54  <lavalamp_> One EC2 Compute Unit provides the equivalent CPU capacity of a 1.0-1.2 GHz 2007 Opteron or 2007 Xeon processor.
2010-11-24T04:53:02  <lavalamp_> (quote from further down)
2010-11-24T04:53:27  <antimatroid1> so probably worse than my computer?
2010-11-24T04:53:48  <antimatroid1> i have no idea about those kind of things
2010-11-24T04:54:25  <mega1> aha, so it's about on par with my laptop
2010-11-24T04:54:35  <mega1> but wait, two games on two cores?
2010-11-24T04:57:10  <lavalamp_> yeah that doesn't seem fair
2010-11-24T04:58:04  <antimatroid1> how do the servers play like 30 games a minute?
2010-11-24T04:58:10  <antimatroid1> is that cause some bots just take almost no time?
2010-11-24T04:58:15  <lavalamp_> heh... take out the logging and suddenly I get a lot more nodes in
2010-11-24T04:58:21  <antimatroid1> most of my games take at least a minute
2010-11-24T04:58:54  <lavalamp_> hmmmm still have mysterious timeouts :(
2010-11-24T04:59:08  <antimatroid1> are you deleting information at the end of each turn?
2010-11-24T04:59:20  <antimatroid1> do it at the start of each turn if you are
2010-11-24T04:59:24  <antimatroid1> that solved my timeout issues
2010-11-24T04:59:35  <mega1> I did some tests on a simple cpu machine and mislead myself immensely due to timeouts.
2010-11-24T04:59:43  <lavalamp_> nah go is garbage collected
2010-11-24T04:59:53  <lavalamp_> besides I don't use that much memory
2010-11-24T04:59:56  <antimatroid1> doesn't that still have to delete it though?
2010-11-24T05:00:06  <mega1> so I guess on a two cpu server two games at the same time can also have problems
2010-11-24T05:00:14  <lavalamp_> at some point it does
2010-11-24T05:00:15  <lavalamp_> but it's automatic
2010-11-24T05:00:31  <antimatroid1> i wont run two games on my machine at once
2010-11-24T05:00:50  <antimatroid1> and it's better than what i'm going to get on the official i think
2010-11-24T05:00:56  <lavalamp_> I run lots at once on my machine ^^
2010-11-24T05:00:57  <mega1> janzert: ^^^? (two games at a time)
2010-11-24T05:01:11  <antimatroid1> i get like 300 nodes max per turn atm :|
2010-11-24T05:01:15  <janzert> mega1: yes
2010-11-24T05:01:47  <mega1> janzert: I understand that by now, but don't they affect each other?
2010-11-24T05:01:58  <mega1> due to the timeout being real time
2010-11-24T05:02:07  <antimatroid1> wouldn't it be just as fast to run them one at a time?
2010-11-24T05:02:21  <antimatroid1> minus starting up game cost, that can't be that expensive
2010-11-24T05:02:43  <mega1> a quick bot against a slow bot leaves cpu power unused if only one game is running
2010-11-24T05:02:57  <antimatroid1> ah yeah, i see the issue
2010-11-24T05:02:58  <mega1> but that's about the only fair way to run it.
2010-11-24T05:03:03  <antimatroid1> i think one at a time would be ideal
2010-11-24T05:03:22  <janzert> antimatroid1: most of the time on average is spent between games actually, sending the previous game info the main server and getting the next pairing then possibly download/compiling etc.
2010-11-24T05:03:47  <antimatroid1> you don't recompile bots for every game?
2010-11-24T05:03:52  <janzert> no
2010-11-24T05:04:00  <lavalamp_> it would be ok if you executed the bot's turns in sequence
2010-11-24T05:04:06  <lavalamp_> now that I think about it
2010-11-24T05:04:53  <lavalamp_> does the engine pipe the state to both bots and then wait a second, or does it pipe it to A, wait a sec, then B, wait a sec?
2010-11-24T05:05:11  <janzert> yes, the current system will give more variance in the amount of cpu actually available. Nobody should be starved though.
2010-11-24T05:05:23  <janzert> lavalamp_: pipe to both and wait 1 second, in parallel
2010-11-24T05:05:37  <antimatroid1> hmmmmm
2010-11-24T05:05:40  <janzert> and the current system has been in place since before I started working on the contest
2010-11-24T05:05:52  <lavalamp_> that doesn't seem fair at ALL unless there is a core availible for each :/
2010-11-24T05:06:29  <lavalamp_> sigh I'm STILL timing out
2010-11-24T05:06:36  <lavalamp_> but not locally any more
2010-11-24T05:06:43  <antimatroid1> i guess any bot has equal resources for a given opponent :\
2010-11-24T05:06:57  <antimatroid1> i still think it's the least preferred way
2010-11-24T05:07:11  <antimatroid1> although i realise it wasn't a deicision made by you janzert :)
2010-11-24T05:07:29  <lavalamp_> yeah it means I could do my turn and then busy-wait to starve the other guy of cpu
2010-11-24T05:07:43  <antimatroid1> hmm, i hate to say it, but that's a good idea
2010-11-24T05:07:46  <lavalamp_> for the duration of the time, I mean
2010-11-24T05:08:10  <lavalamp_> I'm too nice to actually implement that but it really is optimal
2010-11-24T05:08:16  <antimatroid1> i wont, but yeah
2010-11-24T05:08:45  <mega1> janzert: so what I can count on is 0.5s - 1s of cpu time, right?
2010-11-24T05:08:54  <lavalamp_> that should be grounds for banning, I think
2010-11-24T05:09:10  <antimatroid1> lavalamp_: it's not at current, perhaps it should be in the future though
2010-11-24T05:09:51  <antimatroid1> you couldn't fairly ban someone for it this tournament i don't think, but i'm not going to add unecessary stress when computing power is limited already
2010-11-24T05:09:58  <antimatroid1> if there were more servers i'd probably do it
2010-11-24T05:10:32  <lavalamp_> or I could allocate as much memory as I could and read/write from/to it randomly to deny the other guy memory throughput
2010-11-24T05:10:44  <antimatroid1> it's a prisoners dilemma to do it or not :P
2010-11-24T05:10:51  <lavalamp_> yes it is
2010-11-24T05:11:02  <lavalamp_> fortunately I cooperate
2010-11-24T05:11:20  <antimatroid1> yep, i rationalise with repeated versions of the game :)
2010-11-24T05:11:30  <lavalamp_> well, for everyone else it's fortunate
2010-11-24T05:11:43  <lavalamp_> it'd be optimal if everyone else was like me ^^
2010-11-24T05:11:57  <antimatroid1> yes, but it's dominated D:
2010-11-24T05:12:00  <janzert> mega1: that sounds right
2010-11-24T05:12:16  <antimatroid1> janzert: any chance of that changing to 1 second per bot?
2010-11-24T05:12:54  <lavalamp_> not if I play myself (i.e. my choice is also the other guy's choice)
2010-11-24T05:12:54  <janzert> not really
2010-11-24T05:13:06  <lavalamp_> eh maybe it technically still is
2010-11-24T05:13:09  <lavalamp_> whatever
2010-11-24T05:13:18  <mega1> janzert: thanks, at least I understand what to optimize for
2010-11-24T05:13:31  <lavalamp_> grrr why do I time out it makes no sense :(
2010-11-24T05:13:58  <mega1> I'll test with a random timeout between 0.5 and 1s
2010-11-24T05:14:18  <lavalamp_> I want all my games to be like this: http://zeroviz.us:8080/canvas.cgi?game_id=23020
2010-11-24T05:14:23  <janzert> argh, ok. the game_stats page just went from taking 2+ seconds to load to < 0.5 second for no apparent reason
2010-11-24T05:14:27  <janzert> stupid mysql
2010-11-24T05:15:43  <pyro-> what are these numbers on planets
2010-11-24T05:15:52  <medrimonia> id+growth
2010-11-24T05:16:14  <pyro-> ty
2010-11-24T05:17:48  <Accoun> play on TCP please
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2010-11-24T05:17:57  <lavalamp_> I'm trying, grr
2010-11-24T05:18:06  <amstan> janzert: k, i'll have a table of duplicate emails and passwords very soon
2010-11-24T05:18:07  <Accoun> im the 1st on it now
2010-11-24T05:19:02  <mega1> so the main site is slow because amstan is running queries but why are the game servers slow too?
2010-11-24T05:19:08  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(3514), bix0r4ever(3364), asavis(3342), dmj111(3321), _iouri_(3313), Raschi(3278), FlagCapper(3202), medrimonia(3192), jimrogerz(3190), george(3171)
2010-11-24T05:19:19  <mega1> oh, I see they are picking up steam
2010-11-24T05:19:19  <janzert> mega1: they're starved for games
2010-11-24T05:19:27  <amstan> mega1: i'm not
2010-11-24T05:19:29  <mega1> ah, makes sense
2010-11-24T05:19:31  <amstan> mega1: this is local
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2010-11-24T05:20:00  <janzert> amstan: it seems to be putting itself back together now
2010-11-24T05:20:06  <amstan> yay
2010-11-24T05:21:13  <janzert> next tournament have a primary server with more ram would be a really good idea
2010-11-24T05:21:52  <janzert> I think we're getting pretty touch and go with the current one for the database right now
2010-11-24T05:22:25  <antimatroid1> amstan: any idea when the next one will be? ending at the same time as tronish?
2010-11-24T05:22:35  <amstan> idk, maybe later
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2010-11-24T05:30:11  <amstan> oh yeah..
2010-11-24T05:30:24  <amstan> we got quite a few ppl with multiple accounts
2010-11-24T05:35:21  <antimatroid1> yeah, raschi has a second one that should be disabled
2010-11-24T05:35:38  <antimatroid1> i wouldn't ban him though, the second hasn't been used in ages
2010-11-24T05:35:47  <antimatroid1> i suspect he didn't realise the rules
2010-11-24T05:36:14  <janzert> I think most of them probably aren't malicious
2010-11-24T05:36:37  <antimatroid1> yeah
2010-11-24T05:36:50  <antimatroid1> it'd suck to get banned for accidentally doing that
2010-11-24T05:37:27  <amstan> yeah.. that 32 thing was probably a coincidence
2010-11-24T05:37:38  <amstan> there's a lot of ppl with very standard passwords
2010-11-24T05:37:39  <antimatroid1> that's different
2010-11-24T05:37:58  <antimatroid1> yeah, mine is something two people could remember
2010-11-24T05:38:17  <amstan> janzert: duplicate email table is done
2010-11-24T05:38:40  *** mceier <mceier!~mceier@chello089077208118.chello.pl> has joined #aichallenge
2010-11-24T05:39:35  <amstan> cameron.jp@gmail.com 4 accounts, ban him!
2010-11-24T05:43:36  <aerique> I'm so impressed by MacLeopold's bot on the official server. Uploaded Sept 16th and ranked 176. He nailed down a lot of the game within two weeks of the contest.
2010-11-24T05:46:28  *** Rubicon-|-Cross <Rubicon-|-Cross!~RubiconCr@adsl-99-30-224-80.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
2010-11-24T05:46:56  <antimatroid1> i think he's gone into turbo programming mode
2010-11-24T05:47:01  <antimatroid1> haven't seen him in here much in the last two days
2010-11-24T05:49:17  <amstan> @seen mcleopold
2010-11-24T05:49:17  <contestbot> amstan: mcleopold was last seen in #aichallenge 1 day, 9 hours, 9 minutes, and 28 seconds ago: <McLeopold> I get the planet, then let go
2010-11-24T05:49:29  <antimatroid1> hmmm, and one gets 0.5 seconds in the more important games too
2010-11-24T05:50:36  <antimatroid1> i have no idea about these kind of things, is it guaranteed that one bot wont only end up with less than 0.5 process time and the other more if they're both trying to use the full one second?
2010-11-24T06:02:26  <mega1> not guaranteed, but it should be close
2010-11-24T06:02:34  <mega1> kernel people are welcome to comment
2010-11-24T06:03:16  <lavalamp_> I'm not a kernel person but I think it may depend on how much time they each spend waiting for memory
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2010-11-24T06:06:28  <antimatroid1> hmmmm, well i think that throws out my second game tree idea
2010-11-24T06:06:40  <antimatroid1> i was already looking for places to speed things up so it might be feasible
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2010-11-24T06:19:10  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(3511), jimrogerz(3450), bix0r4ever(3380), asavis(3331), _iouri_(3321), dmj111(3299), Neverstu(3262), _Astek_(3231), medrimonia(3185), george(3177)
2010-11-24T06:23:54  <antimatroid1> look out for microsoft man
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2010-11-24T06:56:34  <amstan> janzert: woah! search for user!
2010-11-24T06:56:37  <amstan> janzert: +1
2010-11-24T06:57:05  <Error323_> lol
2010-11-24T06:57:18  <Error323_> been there for 3 days or sth now? :)
2010-11-24T06:57:21  <janzert> hehe, that's been there for a couple days
2010-11-24T06:57:30  <janzert> I was sure you were around when I did it too
2010-11-24T06:58:21  <lavalamp_> man site is still hideously slow
2010-11-24T06:58:23  <Error323_> will there be more servers during the contest itself?
2010-11-24T06:58:33  <Error323_> lavalamp_: indeed.
2010-11-24T06:58:57  <janzert> at this point I think most of it is reddit
2010-11-24T06:59:10  <lavalamp_> ah
2010-11-24T06:59:22  <lavalamp_> damn space invaders ^^
2010-11-24T07:00:49  <Error323_> janzert: reddit?
2010-11-24T07:01:48  <lavalamp_> yeah the lexical evolution folks got on reddit
2010-11-24T07:01:57  <lavalamp_> see the space.invaders thread on the forums
2010-11-24T07:02:21  <Error323_> ahh ja
2010-11-24T07:03:24  <janzert> just disabled KeepAlive we'll see if or how much it helps
2010-11-24T07:04:20  <Error323_> whyyyy... did they program it in php lol
2010-11-24T07:04:32  <lavalamp_> yeah that was what I thought too
2010-11-24T07:04:40  <lavalamp_> janzert: 1000000% better
2010-11-24T07:05:11  <lavalamp_> php, the bastard child of C++ and perl...
2010-11-24T07:05:21  <janzert> yeah, the immediate effect seems to be good
2010-11-24T07:05:28  <janzert> see how it holds up though
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2010-11-24T07:15:07  <antimatroid1> retreat retread
2010-11-24T07:15:10  <antimatroid1> my bot is crashing again
2010-11-24T07:16:21  <Accoun> C++ and perl the best
2010-11-24T07:17:54  <antimatroid1> i only really know c++
2010-11-24T07:18:00  <antimatroid1> but i'm going to learn haskell once this ends
2010-11-24T07:18:10  <antimatroid1> and i don't know that much about c++ either
2010-11-24T07:18:31  <Accoun> haskell gomosecsual chois
2010-11-24T07:18:52  <antimatroid1> is that meant to say homosexual?
2010-11-24T07:19:02  <Accoun> for himosecsualist
2010-11-24T07:19:07  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(3513), jimrogerz(3476), asavis(3369), _iouri_(3365), bix0r4ever(3338), dmj111(3296), medrimonia(3184), george(3177), Accoun(3176), _Astek_(3174)
2010-11-24T07:19:21  <antimatroid1> people seem to like haskell, so i'll give it a go
2010-11-24T07:19:34  <Accoun> C++ and perl the best
2010-11-24T07:19:42  <Accoun> and LUA
2010-11-24T07:20:21  <Accoun> and www.1c.ru (russian enterprise java)
2010-11-24T07:20:32  <antimatroid1> i wont touch java with a ten foot pole
2010-11-24T07:20:59  <Accoun> java the good for linux
2010-11-24T07:21:05  <Accoun> but not for me
2010-11-24T07:21:19  <antimatroid1> i don't work as a programmer, so i don't need to use java ever again in my life
2010-11-24T07:21:22  <antimatroid1> it makes me so happy
2010-11-24T07:21:45  <antimatroid1> well that's a lie, i do sort of, but ra work and it's in gauss
2010-11-24T07:22:21  <antimatroid1> and i can very rarely be bothered working ( i haven't in like 3 months)
2010-11-24T07:22:58  <Accoun> antimatroid1> say to u frenf jarzet to generate 999 maps
2010-11-24T07:23:03  <Accoun> antimatroid1> say to u frend jarzet to generate 999 maps
2010-11-24T07:23:14  <antimatroid1> it's too many maps
2010-11-24T07:23:38  <Accoun> antimatroid1> http://ai-contest.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&p=7636#p7604
2010-11-24T07:23:46  <Accoun> antimatroid1> read it
2010-11-24T07:24:13  <Accoun> 75 map set fast give wrong winer (map set related)
2010-11-24T07:24:19  <Accoun> 999 map set give true winer if enougth number of games played, more games more accurate result
2010-11-24T07:24:22  <Accoun> because
2010-11-24T07:24:29  <Accoun> all 999 map sets identical and give the same winer
2010-11-24T07:24:36  <Accoun> all 75 map sets sepecial and give special winer
2010-11-24T07:25:06  <antimatroid1> but it isn't feasible to play enough games on 999 maps to get teh true winner guaranteed
2010-11-24T07:25:10  <antimatroid1> that's the problem
2010-11-24T07:25:25  <Accoun> antimatroid1> it not problem
2010-11-24T07:25:36  <antimatroid1> ideally you want bots around the same ranking to all play each other on the same randomly generated maps
2010-11-24T07:25:37  <Accoun> antimatroid1> problem is wrong winer
2010-11-24T07:25:42  <antimatroid1> then maximise the number of maps that happens for
2010-11-24T07:25:54  <Accoun> antimatroid1> yes, its the best
2010-11-24T07:25:56  <antimatroid1> although probably not quite that strictly
2010-11-24T07:26:12  <antimatroid1> Account: 999 maps is too many for that to happen with
2010-11-24T07:26:15  <Accoun> random map for each game the best metod
2010-11-24T07:26:32  <Accoun> antimatroid1> not
2010-11-24T07:26:45  <antimatroid1> i think a random map for every game is bad
2010-11-24T07:27:04  <lavalamp_> yeah you might get screwed with a bunch of draw maps
2010-11-24T07:27:05  <antimatroid1> well, it depends how many times people play each toher
2010-11-24T07:27:18  <Accoun> antimatroid1> not
2010-11-24T07:27:40  <Error323_> i think its good
2010-11-24T07:27:47  <Error323_> its most fair
2010-11-24T07:27:56  <Accoun> ELO based on win/loses percentes betvin each bot pair
2010-11-24T07:28:03  <antimatroid1> hmm, say top 4 play each other a couple of times each
2010-11-24T07:28:14  <antimatroid1> isn't it preferable if they play each other on the same randomly made map?
2010-11-24T07:28:24  <antimatroid1> map(s)?
2010-11-24T07:28:25  <Error323_> no
2010-11-24T07:28:43  <medrimonia> The draw maps would be a problem
2010-11-24T07:28:57  <Accoun> 75 maps give map set related win/loses percentes
2010-11-24T07:28:58  <Error323_> well say they play eachtother a couple of time each and the random generator picks the same map on which A loses
2010-11-24T07:29:02  <Accoun> it misteike
2010-11-24T07:29:08  <Error323_> and then A gets other opponents
2010-11-24T07:29:17  <antimatroid1> i don't think there's been any maps that would be thown out for too many draws with the newer map generators
2010-11-24T07:29:24  <Accoun> random map give true win/loses percentes if enougth games played
2010-11-24T07:29:33  <Error323_> indeed.
2010-11-24T07:29:39  <antimatroid1> mega1: new map for every game, good or bad?
2010-11-24T07:29:43  <Error323_> but its also more cpu intensive per game
2010-11-24T07:29:51  <Accoun> new map for every game the best
2010-11-24T07:29:56  <antimatroid1> Error323_: maps could be generated now
2010-11-24T07:29:58  <antimatroid1> like thousands
2010-11-24T07:30:05  <antimatroid1> and just use them as needed
2010-11-24T07:30:08  <medrimonia> if you want "True Results", you've got to make each player play against each other player on more than three thousands of maps (and once in each map)
2010-11-24T07:30:39  <Error323_> why three thousand?
2010-11-24T07:30:43  <medrimonia> Just to say that you can't get a True Winner, (in fact I think that bocsimacko will win whatever the set of map is)
2010-11-24T07:30:49  <medrimonia> It's just an idea
2010-11-24T07:30:54  <antimatroid1> i must admit i was first in favour of a new map for each game, but someone previously talked me around
2010-11-24T07:30:57  <antimatroid1> i can't remember who
2010-11-24T07:30:58  <Accoun> medrimonia> not betwin all, only betwin near REAITING bots
2010-11-24T07:31:01  <mega1> antimatroid1: last time I supported random map for each game because I think maps have a greater effect than map+player
2010-11-24T07:31:08  <medrimonia> Even three thousands isn't enough
2010-11-24T07:31:09  <mega1> ... and I still do.
2010-11-24T07:31:15  <antimatroid1> hmmm
2010-11-24T07:31:20  <Error323_> so do I yes
2010-11-24T07:31:37  <antimatroid1> janzert: if we had a strong consensus, would you be willing to use a new map for every game? one could just generate thousands of maps before the contest
2010-11-24T07:31:39  <mega1> with different seeds though :-)
2010-11-24T07:31:51  <Error323_> haha
2010-11-24T07:32:15  <medrimonia> The big problem for me is the draw maps
2010-11-24T07:32:40  <antimatroid1> the few that do pop up a lot of people still seem to fail on
2010-11-24T07:32:50  <antimatroid1> i don't think they're much of an issue
2010-11-24T07:33:31  <antimatroid1> what if a game was repeated on a new map with the same pair of players if a draw happened? is that a good or terrible idea?
2010-11-24T07:33:39  <antimatroid1> i don't think that would be done now, but for the future..
2010-11-24T07:34:10  <Error323_> medrimonia: everyone would have the draw maps problem right?
2010-11-24T07:34:22  <Error323_> so in the limit it wouldn't be a problem
2010-11-24T07:34:30  <medrimonia> Yes but it depends on how much games you'll be playing
2010-11-24T07:34:32  <antimatroid1> we're not getting close to approaching any limit
2010-11-24T07:34:35  <antimatroid1> that's the issue
2010-11-24T07:34:39  <Error323_> that is true
2010-11-24T07:34:55  <Error323_> with 50 maps it would take around 4000 days =)
2010-11-24T07:35:12  <Error323_> given 4500 players
2010-11-24T07:35:13  <medrimonia> if you have let's say 2 percent of chance of having a draw map
2010-11-24T07:35:54  <medrimonia> and each player plays 200 games
2010-11-24T07:36:24  <medrimonia> probability of having zero draw map=0.98^200
2010-11-24T07:36:34  <antimatroid1> well i would be happy for a new map to be used in each game
2010-11-24T07:36:59  <medrimonia> probability of having 1 draw map or more=1-0.98^200
2010-11-24T07:37:01  <antimatroid1> if not a fairly large set to be played on
2010-11-24T07:38:01  <medrimonia> probability of having 2 draw maps or more = 1-0.98^200 -0.98^198*0.02*200
2010-11-24T07:38:02  <medrimonia> etc
2010-11-24T07:38:37  <Error323_> yeah
2010-11-24T07:38:37  <medrimonia> Just to say that you'll probably be having for each person, between 0 and something like 10 percent of draw maps played
2010-11-24T07:38:45  <Error323_> the problem is against whom hehe
2010-11-24T07:39:06  <antimatroid1> is it any worse than the chances of getting one now?
2010-11-24T07:39:09  <medrimonia> and if someone of the top 10 has zero draw map and another has 10 draw maps
2010-11-24T07:39:16  <antimatroid1> if not every bot plays every other one on the same map
2010-11-24T07:39:23  <antimatroid1> even in the same region of rankings
2010-11-24T07:39:24  <medrimonia> The thing is that with those maps
2010-11-24T07:39:25  <medrimonia> w
2010-11-24T07:39:29  <Error323_> probability of playing against a much lower rank is quite a lot smaller then a rank hovered around your rank
2010-11-24T07:39:41  <medrimonia> we can analyze the percentage of draw on each maps
2010-11-24T07:39:54  <Error323_> you could also write a script that detects these maps (0 moves p1 && 0 moves p2 && draw)
2010-11-24T07:39:59  <Error323_> and don't count them
2010-11-24T07:40:11  <antimatroid1> 0 moves the whole game?
2010-11-24T07:40:20  <Error323_> yea?
2010-11-24T07:40:32  <Error323_> or what do you guys define as being random?
2010-11-24T07:40:38  <medrimonia> and if a map seems to really be a draw map, you could remove all the games played on those maps from the database
2010-11-24T07:40:39  <Error323_> ehhhh draw*
2010-11-24T07:40:40  <Error323_> lol
2010-11-24T07:40:59  <antimatroid1> medrimonia: that is what was done last time
2010-11-24T07:41:02  <antimatroid1> i don't like that practive
2010-11-24T07:41:14  <antimatroid1> i think the may have just removed the draw results, but could be wrong
2010-11-24T07:41:21  <Error323_> me neither, draws depend heavily on the players
2010-11-24T07:41:29  <Error323_> i'm kinda wondering whether they should be removed at al
2010-11-24T07:41:30  <medrimonia> Yes but if we go to a random map for each game
2010-11-24T07:41:43  <medrimonia> we have to replay the draw games
2010-11-24T07:41:46  <antimatroid1> yeah, it's letting bots assume draw maps don't exist in a way
2010-11-24T07:41:48  <antimatroid1> which is bad
2010-11-24T07:42:01  <medrimonia> or to verify that the map generated isn't a draw map
2010-11-24T07:42:30  <Error323_> how do you define a draw map now then? true empericial data?
2010-11-24T07:42:37  <Error323_> emperical*
2010-11-24T07:42:39  <Error323_> -.-
2010-11-24T07:42:42  <medrimonia> a really draw map
2010-11-24T07:42:44  <antimatroid1> accoun and i are currently drawing on a map despite having taken all out neutrals on each side of the map
2010-11-24T07:43:00  <Error323_> thats far from a good definition
2010-11-24T07:43:01  <Error323_> imo
2010-11-24T07:43:10  <antimatroid1> and then he got me :\
2010-11-24T07:43:12  <Error323_> it's highly dependant on the player
2010-11-24T07:43:30  <medrimonia> is a map where if you chose to take a planet, the opponent can snipe you or take your home planet
2010-11-24T07:43:42  <medrimonia> that's what a real draw map is for me
2010-11-24T07:44:09  <antimatroid1> i disagree
2010-11-24T07:44:29  <antimatroid1> i think the assumption that you shouldn't lose your home planet to rage bot is reasonable given the max growth at home
2010-11-24T07:44:42  <medrimonia> I don't think so
2010-11-24T07:44:49  <antimatroid1> but to ensure you can take at least one planet without being sniped, given a lot of bots still are vulnerable to that, is bad
2010-11-24T07:44:58  <Error323_> I think we/thedevs would first have to agree on a solid definition of "draw map" before taking them out. janzert, amstan what do you think?
2010-11-24T07:45:03  <antimatroid1> i think the assumption... is fine^^
2010-11-24T07:46:29  <medrimonia> well ok antimatroid1: with the kind of bots active, it's fine with the ragebot thing, but between two good bots, I think that'll make a draw.
2010-11-24T07:46:56  <antimatroid1> the contest isn't run just for the top 10 rankings
2010-11-24T07:47:06  <antimatroid1> while those are the more important ones
2010-11-24T07:47:59  <medrimonia> yes I know, but the thing that is a problem to me is that a good bot will draw against a bot which symply do nothing (or ragebot) in this kind of map
2010-11-24T07:48:17  <antimatroid1> that can already happen
2010-11-24T07:48:48  <antimatroid1> or are we not talking about problems with new maps for every game anymore? :P
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2010-11-24T07:49:15  <Error323_> imo, just generate
2010-11-24T07:49:16  <Error323_> =)
2010-11-24T07:49:46  <antimatroid1> it's also a lot cooler for watching if it's a new map every game
2010-11-24T07:49:55  <Error323_> agree
2010-11-24T07:50:00  <medrimonia> Grrr I gotta go to classes, I would have loved to continue this conversation but, I've still gotta work a little bit
2010-11-24T07:50:07  <Error323_> and I truely believe its also the most fair
2010-11-24T07:50:11  <antimatroid1> hehe, benefits of holidays
2010-11-24T07:50:22  <medrimonia> antimatroid1: On this point i agree totally
2010-11-24T07:50:35  <medrimonia> Seeing new map every time will be funny
2010-11-24T07:50:37  <antimatroid1> does anyone not like the idea of a new map on every game?
2010-11-24T07:50:55  <Error323_> i htought you two didn't like it? :P
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2010-11-24T07:51:08  <antimatroid1> "speak now or forever hold your peave, every contestant"
2010-11-24T07:51:12  <medrimonia> Don't take me wrong, I like this idea, I simply don't think that it's most fair
2010-11-24T07:51:16  <antimatroid1> i was talked out of it by someone at some point
2010-11-24T07:51:23  <antimatroid1> i've been talked around again :P
2010-11-24T07:52:23  <antimatroid1> it's a lot easier when bots don't play each other
2010-11-24T07:52:26  <antimatroid1> but so much less fun
2010-11-24T07:53:16  <Error323_> how can random each time not be most fair?
2010-11-24T07:53:21  * Error323_ can't comprehend :P
2010-11-24T08:01:10  <mega1> it's all fair in the limit
2010-11-24T08:01:45  <mega1> they differ in variance before the limit
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2010-11-24T08:04:21  <janzert> Don't really have time right now to get into the conversation, but my current plan is that bots will play no more than roughly 5 times on any given map.
2010-11-24T08:04:50  <Kingpin13> um, anybody help me with testing a c# bot on my own computer?
2010-11-24T08:04:59  <antimatroid1> janzert: why not just use a new map for each game? you could generate thousands on maps before the contest even started, so it wouldn't cost anything
2010-11-24T08:05:09  <Kingpin13> the tutorial only seems to cover the java bots
2010-11-24T08:07:00  <janzert> because having all the bots go through the bias of any specific map is a good thing, i.e. I want all the bots to face the same biases as much as possible in all aspects not just maps.
2010-11-24T08:07:43  <antimatroid1> yeah, okay, i'm pretty happy with whatever to be honest
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2010-11-24T08:11:46  <mega1> debating the right solution may be fruitless without knowing how many games we can have
2010-11-24T08:12:04  <janzert> and that is really truly unknown
2010-11-24T08:12:16  <Accoun> antimatroid1> say to u frenf jarzet to generate 999 maps
2010-11-24T08:12:55  <Error323_> mmm
2010-11-24T08:13:16  <antimatroid1> Accoun: read the above conversation
2010-11-24T08:13:27  <mega1> Accouns experiment, if I understand it correctly, shows that with 100 maps the risk is rather high.
2010-11-24T08:14:39  <janzert> if we stay reddit'd for the whole finals the total number of games is likely to be really low :{
2010-11-24T08:14:48  <janzert> fortunately I don't think that is going to happen
2010-11-24T08:14:58  <antimatroid1> neither, tell jeff not to post there till the end :P
2010-11-24T08:15:06  <Error323_> and what about generating a lot of maps while for each map test with ragebot, that when draws is removed?
2010-11-24T08:15:57  <antimatroid1> Accoun: with your experiments, how many games had to be played between bots before accurate rankings were found?
2010-11-24T08:16:20  <janzert> ? ragebot will already draw against itself. Also with the current map generator the draw percentage on all maps is pretty low.
2010-11-24T08:16:31  <Error323_> ragebot vs a good bot
2010-11-24T08:16:37  <Accoun> antimatroid1> 333 games on TCP give good rezilt
2010-11-24T08:16:47  <antimatroid1> how do you know?
2010-11-24T08:17:07  <antimatroid1> different people are playing all the time
2010-11-24T08:17:13  <antimatroid1> and changing their bots
2010-11-24T08:17:24  <janzert> tcp also does pretty bad pairing from what I remember
2010-11-24T08:17:28  <Error323_> indeed
2010-11-24T08:17:39  <Error323_> or well its kinda randomish
2010-11-24T08:17:52  <janzert> lots of streakiness
2010-11-24T08:18:03  <antimatroid1> it also pairs on availability
2010-11-24T08:18:08  <antimatroid1> which is good for getting a fast pairing
2010-11-24T08:18:12  <antimatroid1> bad for not getting repeat pairings
2010-11-24T08:18:20  <Error323_> yup
2010-11-24T08:18:21  <janzert> right
2010-11-24T08:18:34  <antimatroid1> but how long do you wait before saying, fine i'll play these two again?
2010-11-24T08:18:51  <Accoun> 333 games on TCP give good rezilt
2010-11-24T08:18:54  <janzert> yep, it's not an easy problem
2010-11-24T08:19:08  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(3515), jimrogerz(3513), _iouri_(3348), asavis(3342), bix0r4ever(3294), dmj111(3292), Accoun(3186), medrimonia(3178), george(3173), Beduin(3171)
2010-11-24T08:19:30  <janzert> bah, the east coast just got to work hit reddit and is pounding the site :P
2010-11-24T08:20:25  <antimatroid1> aha, damnit jeff
2010-11-24T08:21:54  <Error323_> janzert: how does the opponent-picking algo work for the official server
2010-11-24T08:23:52  <janzert> basically avoid recent pairings and randomly pick someone based on a pareto distribution over the difference in rank
2010-11-24T08:24:14  <antimatroid1> stats and i don't go well together
2010-11-24T08:24:27  <Error323_> nice
2010-11-24T08:24:37  <Error323_> that sounds good
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2010-11-24T08:25:09  <Error323_> s/sounds/is good
2010-11-24T08:25:09  <Error323_> :)
2010-11-24T08:25:33  <janzert> yeah, it's not too bad and to get better would probably take a lot of reworking.
2010-11-24T08:26:05  <Error323_> well from the top of my head i wouldn't know anything better
2010-11-24T08:26:38  <Error323_> perhaps experiment with different density functions but yeh thats kind of infeasable ^_^ :
2010-11-24T08:27:27  <antimatroid1> http://ai-contest.com/visualizer.php?game_id=8501946
2010-11-24T08:27:29  <antimatroid1> speaking of draws ehe
2010-11-24T08:28:03  <Error323_> yea these kind of draws are impossible to detect and highly dependant on bot pair
2010-11-24T08:28:08  <Error323_> and not "wrong" imo
2010-11-24T08:28:50  <antimatroid1> 88 users on the forums aha
2010-11-24T08:34:09  <janzert> quite an uptick in new users as well, 59 in the past 24 hours it has been hovering in the high teens
2010-11-24T08:34:48  <Error323_> hmm
2010-11-24T08:35:04  <Error323_> weird
2010-11-24T08:35:11  <Error323_> janzert: how many users in total now?
2010-11-24T08:35:57  <janzert> 6925 activated accounts
2010-11-24T08:36:34  <pyro-> excuse me, is my bot process restarted each game? and is the maximum turns still fixed at 200? i want to know if its correct to count down turns remaining that way
2010-11-24T08:37:02  <Error323_> yes pyro-
2010-11-24T08:37:08  <pyro-> thank you :)
2010-11-24T08:37:39  <antimatroid1> it's a bit late for people to be signing up :|
2010-11-24T08:37:54  <Error323_> well
2010-11-24T08:38:04  <Error323_> there's a difference between signing up and time worked on it
2010-11-24T08:38:20  <antimatroid1> i'm looking forward to (hopefully) coming in and snatching first for australia
2010-11-24T08:38:27  <Error323_> some ppl are really secretive
2010-11-24T08:38:29  <antimatroid1> i have to beat smiley
2010-11-24T08:38:40  <Error323_> from the looks of it I'll become #1 of holland :D
2010-11-24T08:38:49  <Error323_> thought it'll be really close
2010-11-24T08:38:50  <antimatroid1> yeah, a lot of people will go who tf is antimatroid when they see me
2010-11-24T08:39:27  <Error323_> i'll implement synchronized attacks
2010-11-24T08:39:32  <Error323_> today
2010-11-24T08:39:38  <Error323_> and then i'm out of things to do
2010-11-24T08:39:39  <Error323_> :S
2010-11-24T08:39:53  <antimatroid1> bah i'm still implementing fairly large things
2010-11-24T08:39:56  <antimatroid1> i better be done in time
2010-11-24T08:40:02  <Error323_> :P
2010-11-24T08:40:03  <antimatroid1> i've changed my game tree slightly too
2010-11-24T08:40:06  <antimatroid1> so i need to get that working
2010-11-24T08:40:26  <antimatroid1> and then it's a final refine of my pick move functions then i can submit
2010-11-24T08:42:27  <Error323_> antimatroid1: where will you rank approximatly?
2010-11-24T08:42:34  <Error323_> do you think
2010-11-24T08:42:52  <antimatroid1> not sure
2010-11-24T08:43:01  <antimatroid1> anywhere from 2-50 hopefully
2010-11-24T08:43:09  <antimatroid1> i like to think i'll be in the upper half of that range
2010-11-24T08:43:29  <janzert> Heh, "Most users ever online was 103 on Wed Nov 24, 2010 8:08 am" <- note time, now I know what people do after arriving at work :P
2010-11-24T08:43:35  <Error323_> hmm that would be my guess for my bot, somewhere in top 30-ish
2010-11-24T08:43:41  <antimatroid1> haha
2010-11-24T08:43:49  <Error323_> janzert: LOL
2010-11-24T08:44:02  <Error323_> 103 btw? that's not a lot
2010-11-24T08:44:06  <Error323_> or is that logged in users?
2010-11-24T08:44:17  <antimatroid1> no, that's active in last live 5 minutes
2010-11-24T08:44:22  <janzert> yeah, I'm kinda surprised it's so low
2010-11-24T08:44:34  <antimatroid1> like* 5 minutes
2010-11-24T08:45:03  <antimatroid1> Error: Vrije Univ. Amsterdam is that the same as uni of amsterdam?
2010-11-24T08:45:10  <Error323_> antimatroid1: NO!
2010-11-24T08:45:10  <Error323_> =)
2010-11-24T08:45:19  <janzert> most users must not visit the forums a whole lot
2010-11-24T08:45:39  <Error323_> ohh the forums
2010-11-24T08:45:46  <Error323_> i thought the ranking site
2010-11-24T08:45:48  <antimatroid1> i take it they're your rivals? :P
2010-11-24T08:46:02  <antimatroid1> dimkadimon doesn't know it, but he's my rival
2010-11-24T08:46:14  <antimatroid1> he's australian, goes to anu, and bitched about the map change
2010-11-24T08:46:19  <antimatroid1> and he's using java
2010-11-24T08:46:20  <Error323_> antimatroid1: well yeah sort of, in a funny way though.
2010-11-24T08:46:35  <Error323_> antimatroid1: he needs to die :P
2010-11-24T08:46:40  <antimatroid1> pretty much
2010-11-24T08:47:53  <antimatroid1> i'm guessing it's like aus/nz rivavly
2010-11-24T08:48:14  <antimatroid1> it's offensive in a joking way
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2010-11-24T08:50:19  <Error323_> ofc
2010-11-24T08:50:23  <Error323_> so am i
2010-11-24T08:50:23  <Error323_> =)
2010-11-24T08:50:34  <Error323_> but mistmanov needs to be DESTROYED
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2010-11-24T08:55:55  <bhasker> morning folks
2010-11-24T08:57:03  <antimatroid1> morning
2010-11-24T08:58:00  <Error323_> hey bhasker
2010-11-24T08:58:09  <bhasker> wassup
2010-11-24T08:58:39  <Accoun> bocsimacko - give me the formula!!!!
2010-11-24T08:58:46  <bhasker> lol accoun has lost it
2010-11-24T08:58:59  <Error323_> hahaha
2010-11-24T08:59:12  <Error323_> today i'm gonna implement synchronized attacks
2010-11-24T08:59:30  <Error323_> see how that works out
2010-11-24T08:59:35  <bhasker> my bot is stuck at 50
2010-11-24T08:59:40  <bhasker> its not budging from there
2010-11-24T08:59:50  <bhasker> its like it has put its root down and decided rank 50 is where it wants to be
2010-11-24T08:59:54  <antimatroid1> Accoun: you seem to be doing well on official today
2010-11-24T09:00:06  <Accoun> m.b. it not formula?
2010-11-24T09:00:14  <Accoun> m.b. no any formula?
2010-11-24T09:00:20  <antimatroid1> when my bot isn't being stupid it seems about on par with acocun and iouri
2010-11-24T09:00:26  <antimatroid1> so hopefully i may pull off a top 10
2010-11-24T09:00:30  <Accoun> m.b. jast all best fomulas in one give the result?
2010-11-24T09:00:34  <antimatroid1> assuming i can remove the stupid
2010-11-24T09:00:49  <Error323_> antimatroid1: that's quite an assumption :)
2010-11-24T09:00:52  <Accoun> m.b. it worch only if no any bugs?
2010-11-24T09:00:55  <antimatroid1> it is :P
2010-11-24T09:01:02  <Accoun> wth is the wuestion!
2010-11-24T09:01:04  <bhasker> whats your name on tcp right now antimatroid
2010-11-24T09:01:06  <antimatroid1> that's my upper bound of hope
2010-11-24T09:01:16  <antimatroid1> nothing, was crash bot before
2010-11-24T09:01:22  <antimatroid1> but making changes /fixing things still
2010-11-24T09:01:33  <bhasker> ah k
2010-11-24T09:01:34  <antimatroid1> http://72.44.46.68/getplayer?player=crashbot
2010-11-24T09:01:52  <bhasker> hmm did you play against malazan-max
2010-11-24T09:01:59  <Error323_> ah ur not beating me in the last two games :P
2010-11-24T09:02:05  <antimatroid1> i think i did at some point
2010-11-24T09:02:39  <antimatroid1> Error323: i've spend 24 hours debugging crap, it's missing lots of stuff :P
2010-11-24T09:03:51  <bhasker> malazan-max seems to be doing reasonably well on tcp
2010-11-24T09:03:56  <Error323_> bhasker: yep
2010-11-24T09:04:09  <bhasker> its slowly clilmbing the ranks
2010-11-24T09:04:09  <Error323_> is it much better than the version you send me?
2010-11-24T09:04:16  <bhasker> i don't think so
2010-11-24T09:04:20  <bhasker> let me start 0.23 up
2010-11-24T09:04:42  <Error323_> my latest version beats it 110 out of 200
2010-11-24T09:04:47  <bhasker> nice
2010-11-24T09:04:58  <Error323_> and there are about 10 draws iir
2010-11-24T09:05:00  <bhasker> k started up 0.23
2010-11-24T09:07:43  <bhasker> 34 more spots to climb to beat E323-1
2010-11-24T09:08:48  <bhasker> does anyone know whose are these chk* bots?
2010-11-24T09:11:01  <Error323_> don't know
2010-11-24T09:17:54  <antimatroid1> no idea either
2010-11-24T09:18:04  <janzert> mega1: Was there some actual experiment that Accoun did you were referring to? So far as I know he is just making assertions
2010-11-24T09:18:35  <mega1> ... well, it's hard to tell. I assumed he actually tested bots.
2010-11-24T09:18:44  <antimatroid1> i think he's talking about playing bots on tcp
2010-11-24T09:19:02  <antimatroid1> but i could be wrong
2010-11-24T09:19:18  <contestbot> amstan: Error: There was a problem accessing the interface to ai-contest.com
2010-11-24T09:20:39  <janzert> mega1: ok, I've never managed a fruitful discussion with him so, well...
2010-11-24T09:21:21  <antimatroid1> i'm happy for you to just do as you planned
2010-11-24T09:21:53  <bhasker> mega1 you should publish an article on your bot after 27th
2010-11-24T09:21:55  <antimatroid1> i think the more maps the better but other than that, it's fair for everybody before pairings etc.
2010-11-24T09:22:06  <bhasker> we pretty much know for sure that your bot will win this game
2010-11-24T09:22:08  <antimatroid1> :\ why are people always about publishing papers
2010-11-24T09:22:38  <mega1> bhasker: I will if my heart's not broken.
2010-11-24T09:23:05  <mega1> (I thought a blog entry would suffice)
2010-11-24T09:23:12  <bhasker> not a paper antimatroid a simple description of his technique
2010-11-24T09:23:21  <bhasker> cause after spending two months at this problem
2010-11-24T09:23:27  <bhasker> i still can't come close to his bot lol
2010-11-24T09:23:28  <bhasker> :(
2010-11-24T09:23:43  <antimatroid1> ah yeah, blog post is sufficient
2010-11-24T09:25:25  <Error323_> yeah i'm really curious to his works aswell
2010-11-24T09:25:47  <bhasker> are you running any new versions now mega1
2010-11-24T09:26:11  <bhasker> or are you done with your submissions
2010-11-24T09:26:45  <mega1> bhasker: testing things locally, but as I spend more and more time timeouts and cpu power are becoming very effective randomizers
2010-11-24T09:27:31  <bhasker> ah
2010-11-24T09:27:51  <bhasker> i don't understand why we have maps like this http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=1186127
2010-11-24T09:27:58  <bhasker> mega1 does your bot draw on such maps
2010-11-24T09:28:01  <mega1> I should go to tcp again in a while and after that to the offical
2010-11-24T09:28:40  <mega1> bhasker: I think so
2010-11-24T09:28:42  <antimatroid1> bhasker: it's hard to eliminate maps like that
2010-11-24T09:28:56  <bhasker> hmm
2010-11-24T09:29:19  <antimatroid1> and i think if you waited, you may have been able to claim one of those centre 5 planets, and possible the other one after
2010-11-24T09:30:56  <rabidus> http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=1178548
2010-11-24T09:31:11  <rabidus> i don't understand why that malazan guy didn't attack when he had a chance
2010-11-24T09:31:34  <bhasker> that would be me rabidus
2010-11-24T09:31:58  <bhasker> hmm i think i don't have enough ships at any point
2010-11-24T09:32:06  <rabidus> yeah, it was open in my browser, opened that few hours ago
2010-11-24T09:32:07  <bhasker> oh wait
2010-11-24T09:32:16  <bhasker> thats because my bot is too conservative
2010-11-24T09:32:24  <bhasker> it won't launch if it can't do it without losing the home planet
2010-11-24T09:32:25  <rabidus> but that's certainly a bug
2010-11-24T09:32:29  <bhasker> rather without losing my planet
2010-11-24T09:32:30  <rabidus> ok
2010-11-24T09:32:37  <bhasker> it doesn't do trades very well
2010-11-24T09:32:58  <bhasker> i haven't ever figured a good way to factor in trades
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2010-11-24T09:37:00  <lavalamp_> sigh... even though the bot I submitted last night beat my last submission like 80% of the time it dosen't seem to be doing that well on main :(
2010-11-24T09:37:40  <cYmen> Somebody posted on reddit about somebody using genetic algorithms but he only linked to a replay of one game.
2010-11-24T09:37:42  <mega1> that has happened to me, as well
2010-11-24T09:37:47  <cYmen> Do you guys know where I can find more information?
2010-11-24T09:38:26  <cYmen> mega1: good job promoting lisp up there ;)
2010-11-24T09:38:27  <mega1> it was Jeff Cameron's marketing stunt
2010-11-24T09:38:29  <antimatroid1> http://ai-contest.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=1136
2010-11-24T09:39:48  <antimatroid1> it's not a particularly good bot
2010-11-24T09:39:59  <mega1> lavalamp_: it turned out the my new version subtly relied on knowing what the opponent would do
2010-11-24T09:40:19  <mega1> which it knew quite well as it was a slight tweak.
2010-11-24T09:41:16  <cYmen> mega1: So have you written any tutorial, yet? :)
2010-11-24T09:42:15  <janzert> slight tweaks doing exceptionally well against an old version is a quite pervasive problem when working on game ai :(
2010-11-24T09:42:17  <mega1> this time around there seem to be fewer tutorials and
2010-11-24T09:42:26  <mega1> ideas and shared so freely.
2010-11-24T09:42:34  <lavalamp_> mega1: my bot is too stupid to have that problem at the moment :/
2010-11-24T09:42:50  <mega1> I thought so too.
2010-11-24T09:43:30  <lavalamp_> I very slightly improved the things it sucked at, possibly hurting the things it was good at in the process...
2010-11-24T09:44:52  <mega1> west coast got to work too
2010-11-24T09:46:16  <lavalamp_> ok today is probably my last day working on this dumb bot
2010-11-24T09:46:29  <lavalamp_> I leave for a vacation tomorrow
2010-11-24T09:46:41  <antimatroid1> the specifics matter so much in this that i don't mind sharing my general strategy
2010-11-24T09:46:49  <lavalamp_> I actually took off work a day early so I could make last minute changes on this ^^
2010-11-24T09:47:33  <lavalamp_> I'm going to try and get my payoff table engine working with my current bot. Then we'll have to call it good.
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2010-11-24T10:19:09  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bix0r4ever(3537), bocsimacko(3502), asavis(3410), jimrogerz(3267), dmj111(3260), _iouri_(3238), Raschi(3198), Accoun(3182), Neverstu(3178), medrimonia(3171)
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2010-11-24T10:27:45  <Error323_> ping
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2010-11-24T10:33:47  <davidd> Error323 : No
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2010-11-24T10:34:20  <bhasker> all these improvements for nothing
2010-11-24T10:34:27  <bhasker> 0.23 at 352 elo
2010-11-24T10:34:36  <bhasker> max at 258
2010-11-24T10:34:37  <bhasker> :(
2010-11-24T10:37:25  <Error323> davidd: mm?
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2010-11-24T10:38:16  <datachomper> I tried searching the forums but, the default bots in the python package keep timing out?
2010-11-24T10:38:44  <datachomper> (locally)
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2010-11-24T10:54:39  <bhasker> now a new improvement to make the bot more aggresive
2010-11-24T10:54:41  <bhasker> time to see how it does
2010-11-24T10:58:30  <Error323> goddamnit, it still fails >_<
2010-11-24T10:59:10  <Error323> synchronized attacks == teh fail
2010-11-24T10:59:17  <Error323> so far anyway >_<
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2010-11-24T11:19:10  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bix0r4ever(3657), bocsimacko(3489), asavis(3422), jimrogerz(3292), dmj111(3248), Neverstu(3214), _iouri_(3196), Raschi(3180), smiley1983(3165), felixcoto(3159)
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2010-11-24T11:19:14  <jshriver> greetings
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2010-11-24T11:19:30  <jshriver> Where do you get the Visualizer for Perl?
2010-11-24T11:19:38  <jshriver> or can you use the Java one
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2010-11-24T11:34:48  <jshriver> quiet :)
2010-11-24T11:35:19  <JamesMG> the java one ought to work
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2010-11-24T11:40:53  <jshriver> hrm just tried it, works but wasn't sure the "java MyBot "java MyBot" is that where you would put your game executable?
2010-11-24T11:41:07  <JamesMG> yeah
2010-11-24T11:41:15  <jshriver> for example instead of "java MyBot" I could just put "./MyBot.pl" assuming I run it from the directory it is
2010-11-24T11:41:23  <JamesMG> should work
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2010-11-24T11:42:00  <jshriver> and does that work for multiple engines?  I tried the above but seems like the second engine just sits there and grows but doesnt attack. If I use the java MyBot or the basic perl mybot
2010-11-24T11:42:25  <jshriver> this game reminds me a lot of risk :
2010-11-24T11:42:26  <jshriver> :)
2010-11-24T11:42:58  <JamesMG> for it to be growing it has to be returning "go" to end it's turns, else it would get a timeout error
2010-11-24T11:43:24  <jshriver> hrm so they must be running
2010-11-24T11:43:35  <jshriver> will have to tinker,. Just found out about this via reddit :) so only have 3 days to code
2010-11-24T11:43:44  <JamesMG> good luck :)
2010-11-24T11:43:48  <jshriver> hopefully they will do this again next year
2010-11-24T11:44:08  <JamesMG> I heard rumors of something in feb, nothing solid though
2010-11-24T11:44:45  <jshriver> nice
2010-11-24T11:45:12  <jshriver> see this is the second year, was the first year the same? If so then people could keep working on it till next year
2010-11-24T11:45:37  <JamesMG> first year was a different game, I wasn't around for it though
2010-11-24T11:45:37  <datachomper> jshriver:  Yea i'm in the same boat :OP
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2010-11-24T11:46:29  <jshriver> this takes me back to ACM days hehe
2010-11-24T11:48:50  <Naktibalda> it was a tron game
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2010-11-24T11:53:11  <cYmen> jshriver: ACM?
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2010-11-24T11:58:13  <antimatroid1> it's a programming contest
2010-11-24T11:59:02  <antimatroid1> janzert: on the official server, if someone couts a line not starting with '#' that isn't a move, are we guaranteed that they will lose?
2010-11-24T11:59:15  <antimatroid1> or do i need to account for that?
2010-11-24T11:59:28  <antimatroid1> i can cout any text line locally without crashing
2010-11-24T12:00:14  <antimatroid1> well, outputs a line, for those not using c++
2010-11-24T12:05:35  <Accoun> george on TCP
2010-11-24T12:06:00  <Error323> yea
2010-11-24T12:06:05  <Error323> everyone is suddenly dropping in elo
2010-11-24T12:06:07  <Error323> xD
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2010-11-24T12:10:04  <antimatroid1> wait, nevermind, no i can't
2010-11-24T12:12:33  <antimatroid1> bah,  well if my bot was crashing from them sending comments etc. before it wont now
2010-11-24T12:12:45  <antimatroid1> i don't know why the game engine doesn't strip the comments for me though
2010-11-24T12:19:10  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(3476), bix0r4ever(3457), asavis(3341), jimrogerz(3287), dmj111(3256), Neverstu(3246), _iouri_(3215), deccan(3186), Accoun(3178), felixcoto(3156)
2010-11-24T12:23:02  <antimatroid1> i'm really good at throwing games against iouri
2010-11-24T12:32:55  <p4p4> help, my planet's all green now ! what can i do ?
2010-11-24T12:33:05  <antimatroid1> make them red
2010-11-24T12:33:22  <Error323> polute them
2010-11-24T12:33:28  <Naktibalda> talk to your doctor
2010-11-24T12:41:37  <p4p4> so, scribbling on the screen with a red felt pen does not help ?
2010-11-24T12:42:39  <antimatroid1> depends what you mean by helping
2010-11-24T12:42:43  <mega1> I can't recall seeing this Neverstu
2010-11-24T12:42:46  <antimatroid1> it might make you feel better
2010-11-24T12:43:03  <antimatroid1> mega1: they've been up in the top 10-20 a bit in the last week
2010-11-24T12:43:14  <mega1> bah, missed it somehow then
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2010-11-24T13:05:53  <pccc> Will the leaderboard server remain up after the contest is over?
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2010-11-24T13:11:07  <mega1> I think yes
2010-11-24T13:13:37  <antimatroid1> i'm not sure
2010-11-24T13:13:40  <antimatroid1> tron wasn't i don't think
2010-11-24T13:14:00  <antimatroid1> the need a way to freeze the actual leaderboard and have another one
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2010-11-24T13:15:50  <eburnette> woot! improved bot is losing twice as often. Pblthth:P
2010-11-24T13:17:33  <Accoun> george - dotl leave from TCP please
2010-11-24T13:17:40  <eburnette> Idea: we need a cruise control for bots, continuous testing, version control, yada yada
2010-11-24T13:17:49  <Accoun> i will reconnect 33 min leter
2010-11-24T13:18:04  <Accoun> george - dont leave from TCP please
2010-11-24T13:18:06  <Accoun> i will reconnect 33 min leter
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2010-11-24T13:19:10  <contestbot> Top 10 players: Raschi(3474), bocsimacko(3473), asavis(3324), jimrogerz(3262), dmj111(3246), bix0r4ever(3230), Neverstu(3227), felixcoto(3169), _iouri_(3166), deccan(3159)
2010-11-24T13:30:06  <eburnette> Does anybody have a script that uses multiple computers to run test games (local tourney)? I'm using the test.py somebody posted now but lacks features.
2010-11-24T13:30:13  <antimatroid1> woah, raschi in first
2010-11-24T13:32:50  <eburnette> That would be a stunning upset if bocsimacko (mega1) didn't win in the end.
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2010-11-24T13:37:27  <bhasker> thats just a new upload and he beat mega1
2010-11-24T13:37:31  <bhasker> 5 games played
2010-11-24T13:37:36  <bhasker> http://ai-contest.com/profile.php?user_id=10464
2010-11-24T13:39:58  <Error323> oef
2010-11-24T13:40:06  <Error323> this could be interesting
2010-11-24T13:40:07  <Error323> or just luck
2010-11-24T13:40:15  <Error323> since he uploads like every minute -_-
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2010-11-24T13:41:46  <eburnette> it was on an old style map too
2010-11-24T13:42:39  <bhasker> my bot is stuck on #50
2010-11-24T13:43:02  <Error323> I realized I uploaded a wrong version :/
2010-11-24T13:43:05  <bhasker> so looks like i might stay in the top 50 lol
2010-11-24T13:43:09  <bhasker> barely
2010-11-24T13:43:14  <Error323> haah
2010-11-24T13:43:17  <Error323> :)
2010-11-24T13:43:19  <Error323> well
2010-11-24T13:43:23  <Error323> i'm currently under it
2010-11-24T13:43:29  <Error323> but i'll definitly won't eventually :
2010-11-24T13:46:12  <bhasker> http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=1189601
2010-11-24T13:50:10  <Error323> wowa, like a virus =)
2010-11-24T14:02:17  <pccc> will the contest next term also be galcon?
2010-11-24T14:02:59  <Naktibalda> of course not
2010-11-24T14:03:36  <antimatroid1> that would be boring
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2010-11-24T14:08:21  <mega1> eburnette: this happens all the time. Raschi and bix0r upload often.
2010-11-24T14:08:35  <mega1> I can't say it's not making me nervous.
2010-11-24T14:09:13  <Error323> hehe
2010-11-24T14:11:07  <bhasker> E323 http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=1189938
2010-11-24T14:13:12  <mega1> here we: go b0.77 and b0.79 are on tcp
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2010-11-24T14:19:11  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(3472), Raschi(3446), asavis(3330), jimrogerz(3255), dmj111(3242), Neverstu(3184), felixcoto(3173), _iouri_(3158), Accoun(3156), george(3134)
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2010-11-24T14:49:40  <seidaku> Howdy! Anyone here at all familiar with the Groovy starter package? It isn't working locally for me, but it seems to work fine when I upload it to the server.
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2010-11-24T15:19:14  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(3504), Accoun(3383), Raschi(3282), bix0r4ever(3268), asavis(3258), dmj111(3240), RebelXT(3226), jimrogerz(3210), felixcoto(3182), Neverstu(3146)
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2010-11-24T15:46:35  <pccc> what PlayGame.jar parameters are they using for the contest?
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2010-11-24T16:02:51  <smloh1> are some draws showing but some not?
2010-11-24T16:03:53  <smloh1> i see a draw in Neverstu's history, but i had a "expected game" come and go with no new game listed but a huge jump in ranking
2010-11-24T16:04:11  <pccc> Are they going to use 200 steps for the final contest?
2010-11-24T16:06:39  <Mistmanov> 200 turns, yes.
2010-11-24T16:06:50  <pccc> Mistmanov: k, thanks
2010-11-24T16:19:11  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(3504), Accoun(3428), bix0r4ever(3393), Raschi(3300), asavis(3279), dmj111(3238), felixcoto(3176), RebelXT(3175), Neverstu(3172), smloh1(3170)
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2010-11-24T16:26:58  <rebelxt_> mega1: finally a single win against your latest bot! i'm going to tell my grandkids about this ;-)
2010-11-24T16:29:01  <mega1> on zeroviz? can't see it yet
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2010-11-24T16:30:12  <rebelxt_> mega1: http://zeroviz.us:8080/canvas.cgi?game_id=23989
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2010-11-24T16:30:31  <mega1> sorry, but that's the baseline version :-)
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2010-11-24T16:31:20  <mega1> in local testing b0.79 vs b0.77 is 52/29/25 (win/draw/loss)
2010-11-24T16:31:40  <mega1> but against error323 they have the same score
2010-11-24T16:31:44  <rebelxt_> haha, ok i will give 0.79 another try! ;-)
2010-11-24T16:32:01  <mega1> smiley took it down twice
2010-11-24T16:32:13  <mega1> on benzendrine it only has a timeout
2010-11-24T16:34:08  <rebelxt_> i would be curious to send my compiled bot to you to get test results (python)  - if it does not take you long to do this
2010-11-24T16:34:50  <rebelxt_> mega1, finally, another lucky miscalculation on my part! ;-) http://zeroviz.us:8080/canvas.cgi?game_id=24069
2010-11-24T16:36:28  <mega1> rebelxt_: I have spare cycles now
2010-11-24T16:36:48  <mega1> and a vm I set up for Error323.
2010-11-24T16:37:01  <rebelxt_> do you have python 2.6 by any chance?
2010-11-24T16:37:37  <mega1> 2.5 and 2.6 too
2010-11-24T16:38:12  <mega1> hmm, let me check the jail
2010-11-24T16:39:08  <mega1> I don't have python at all in the jail at the moment
2010-11-24T16:40:14  <rebelxt_> no worries. i'm getting many enough games against your bots on zeroviz at the moment
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2010-11-24T16:43:19  <smloh1> sigh, just had to roll back my latest "improvement"
2010-11-24T16:44:16  <smloh1> i thought it would be a good idea to de-prioritize potential moves further in the future - when things are less certain
2010-11-24T16:44:33  <smloh1> but it just messes up my near-term priorities
2010-11-24T16:45:01  <smloh1> perhaps if i did a kind of plateau-falloff
2010-11-24T16:45:37  <smloh1> just trying to prevent my bot sending things all the way to the other side of the map
2010-11-24T16:45:49  <smloh1> which doesn't turn out to be a good idea by the time the ships get there
2010-11-24T16:46:36  <smloh1> although SOMETIMES it is a good idea
2010-11-24T16:46:41  <Mistmanov> my bot shouldn't have that problem, since it only sends ships when it's absolutely certain that it can conquer a planet, not matter what happens in the meantime (or at least, that's the theory..)
2010-11-24T16:46:59  <Mistmanov> so that normally requires an enormous number of ships, so it will almost never send ships all the way across the map =)
2010-11-24T16:48:04  <smloh1> yeah, my bot thinks it's certain, but i don't think it sufficiently accounts for enemy growth, i.e. new planets that MIGHT be conquered
2010-11-24T16:49:16  <Mistmanov> true, if the enemy has some freakishly efficient expansion, my calculation can also be a bit off
2010-11-24T16:49:31  <Mistmanov> (I can't even do efficient expansion for myself, let alone calculate it for my enemy -_-)
2010-11-24T16:49:59  <smloh1> haha same problem here
2010-11-24T16:50:29  <smloh1> i wonder whether there's a tradeoff between expecting very aggressive expansion and a "safe" expansion from the enemy
2010-11-24T16:51:38  <Mistmanov> it's probably a bit rock-paper-scissory
2010-11-24T16:51:43  <smloh1> but oh well i guess i should just leave that at what works reasonably well for now and try to fix my big problem
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2010-11-24T16:51:51  <smloh1> my reinforcement code is a bit funky
2010-11-24T16:51:58  <smloh1> it holds ships back sometimes
2010-11-24T16:52:04  <Mistmanov> I tried not to think too much about enemy moves (then again, I'm only at 50..)
2010-11-24T16:52:20  <smloh1> and sometimes sends ships over to defend a planet "for sure" when it doesn't really need to yet
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2010-11-24T16:52:48  <smloh1> so that results in my ships being less than efficiently available for my overall attack/defense
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2010-11-24T17:06:25  <smloh1> ouch, my reinforcement code just pulled ships from my frontline planet...
2010-11-24T17:06:28  <smloh1> http://ai-contest.com/visualizer.php?game_id=8541300
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2010-11-24T17:13:47  <bhasker> mistmanov can you elaborate your formula for non snipable planets at turn 1
2010-11-24T17:14:09  <Mistmanov> eh..
2010-11-24T17:14:24  <Mistmanov> you mean which planets I can attack?
2010-11-24T17:14:42  <Mistmanov> without danger of them being sniped?
2010-11-24T17:14:44  <bhasker> yea i remember i think it was you or was it medromania
2010-11-24T17:14:45  <bhasker> yes
2010-11-24T17:14:50  <bhasker> oh maybe it wasn't you
2010-11-24T17:14:59  <Mistmanov> good chance :p
2010-11-24T17:15:35  <McLeopold> 100 < 100-num_ships+ diff*growth
2010-11-24T17:16:31  <bhasker> diff = ?
2010-11-24T17:16:36  <bhasker> distance difference?
2010-11-24T17:16:40  <McLeopold> yep
2010-11-24T17:16:55  <McLeopold> positive is extra growth you get before the hit
2010-11-24T17:17:10  <McLeopold> negative is extra growth the enemy gets
2010-11-24T17:17:35  <bhasker> hmm
2010-11-24T17:18:01  <bhasker> so basically this checks if the enemy hits it with all 100 ships its a net positive transaction or not?
2010-11-24T17:18:16  <McLeopold> kinda
2010-11-24T17:18:28  <bhasker> hmm
2010-11-24T17:19:12  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(3539), Raschi(3488), bix0r4ever(3400), Accoun(3392), asavis(3284), dmj111(3254), RebelXT(3214), felixcoto(3174), smloh1(3171), Neverstu(3170)
2010-11-24T17:19:13  <McLeopold> basically, you get the growth for the turns you hold it to count toward your eventual defense
2010-11-24T17:19:37  <McLeopold> minus the ships would will lose to neutral forces
2010-11-24T17:19:46  <bhasker> hmm k
2010-11-24T17:20:02  <smloh1> oh so it's like the profit calculation
2010-11-24T17:20:17  <McLeopold> so planets that are equidistant are always bad, unless growth >= num_ships
2010-11-24T17:20:26  <bhasker> hmm k
2010-11-24T17:20:36  <bhasker> thanks let me try that out, i get sniped a lot
2010-11-24T17:20:40  <McLeopold> which is special, because if you both hit, it stays neutral
2010-11-24T17:20:54  <bhasker> so trying to see how my bot does if i remove all planets that are snipable on turn 1
2010-11-24T17:21:03  <McLeopold> it won't do good.
2010-11-24T17:21:07  <bhasker> :(
2010-11-24T17:21:08  <McLeopold> That's most planets
2010-11-24T17:21:17  <bhasker> hmm
2010-11-24T17:21:36  <McLeopold> it will be way to conseritive, or always be 1 turn behind
2010-11-24T17:21:46  <McLeopold> but, you should try and see anyway
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2010-11-24T17:23:29  <bhasker> thats usually what i have seen when i try to be very safe
2010-11-24T17:23:36  <bhasker> that it gets too conservative
2010-11-24T17:23:41  <bhasker> and loses by a few ships
2010-11-24T17:23:43  <bhasker> or something
2010-11-24T17:24:15  <bhasker> though i see mega1's bot and it usually only goes for safe planets at turn 1
2010-11-24T17:24:21  <bhasker> and always manages to win:-\
2010-11-24T17:25:06  <smloh1> bhasker, i had a big problem with getting sniped when i would send out ships that were needed to defend my new conquests
2010-11-24T17:25:19  <bhasker> yea i have the same problem at times
2010-11-24T17:25:23  <bhasker> i overextend on turn 1
2010-11-24T17:25:25  <bhasker> and then get sniped
2010-11-24T17:25:26  <bhasker> :-\
2010-11-24T17:25:28  <smloh1> yeah
2010-11-24T17:25:37  <smloh1> that's an important calculation
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2010-11-24T17:36:04  <MciprianM2> hello everybody
2010-11-24T17:37:03  <MciprianM2> Mr. Alexandru Stan, here I am. So can you please help me get my code?
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2010-11-24T17:37:43  <rebelxt_> hello MciprianM2
2010-11-24T17:38:10  <MciprianM2> hello rebelxt_
2010-11-24T17:38:17  <nullkuhl> @channel topic: There are no stupid questions, there are only stupid answers.
2010-11-24T17:38:17  <contestbot> nullkuhl: Error: 'supybot.topic:' is not a valid configuration variable.
2010-11-24T17:38:44  <Zannick> he's more likely to respond if you say his nick "amstan" as he might not be hilighting on his full name
2010-11-24T17:39:01  <amstan> MciprianM2: oh hi
2010-11-24T17:40:07  <MciprianM2> sorry I don't usually use IRC chanels
2010-11-24T17:40:25  <amstan> MciprianM2: i'm talking to you in a pm
2010-11-24T17:40:48  <MciprianM2> amstan: like this?
2010-11-24T17:41:03  <amstan> MciprianM2: no.. check the new tab
2010-11-24T17:41:15  <MciprianM2> ok :)
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2010-11-24T17:43:37  <eburnette> @tcp
2010-11-24T17:43:37  <contestbot> eburnette: tcp = (#1) http://www.benzedrine.cx/planetwars/, or (#2) http://72.44.46.68/, or (#3) 98.247.248.39:995 (zeroviz.us), or (#4) http://tcp.zeroviz.us/, or (#5) http://tcp2.zeroviz.us/ (crazy!)
2010-11-24T17:45:33  <eburnette> How many connections can zeroviz handle at once compared to benzedrine?
2010-11-24T17:47:59  <eburnette> I'll try half as many and see how that goes
2010-11-24T17:53:20  <bhasker> zeroviz is hosted on mcleopolds home connection
2010-11-24T17:53:26  <bhasker> so you probably don't want to slam it
2010-11-24T17:53:27  <bhasker> i think*
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2010-11-24T17:55:00  <pccc> How come when I set max_num_turns to 200 it runs for 201 turns? Little bug or what?
2010-11-24T17:55:18  <bhasker> lol lot of back and forth http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=1193425
2010-11-24T17:55:23  <bhasker> it runs for 200
2010-11-24T17:55:31  <bhasker> the decision is based on the end state of turn 200
2010-11-24T17:55:34  <bhasker> so it shows till 201
2010-11-24T17:55:41  <bhasker> no bug
2010-11-24T17:56:04  <smloh1> so we should be looking at the state at the beginning of turn 201?
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2010-11-24T17:57:47  <eburnette> "You LOSE against boscimacko-b0.79 with 1.7e+18 Elo. You are SHOCKED."
2010-11-24T17:57:55  <pccc> But when I count how many times my DoTurn function is run through completion, it's 201 times. It should only be run 200 times...
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2010-11-24T18:04:20  <pccc> It would be nice if they provided PlayGame.java so I could see what's going on, but I don't see a download for that file.
2010-11-24T18:04:58  <eburnette> rebelxt: what's going on between those two bottom left blue planets? http://zeroviz.us:8080/canvas.cgi?game_id=24201
2010-11-24T18:05:43  <janzert> pccc: if it's not included in the starter packs you can find it in svn for sure
2010-11-24T18:05:45  <janzert> @repo
2010-11-24T18:05:46  <contestbot> janzert: repo = http://code.google.com/p/ai-contest/
2010-11-24T18:06:03  <pccc> janzert: thanks!
2010-11-24T18:06:41  <Zannick> PlayGame.jar also isn't the server engine, it's just a java implementation of it. they should give the same results, though
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2010-11-24T18:19:14  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(3535), Raschi(3450), bix0r4ever(3281), asavis(3268), dmj111(3241), Accoun(3230), felixcoto(3161), Neverstu(3157), luksian(3154), _Astek_(3142)
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2010-11-24T18:27:40  <zeratul> @tcp
2010-11-24T18:27:41  <contestbot> zeratul: tcp = (#1) http://www.benzedrine.cx/planetwars/, or (#2) http://72.44.46.68/, or (#3) 98.247.248.39:995 (zeroviz.us), or (#4) http://tcp.zeroviz.us/, or (#5) http://tcp2.zeroviz.us/ (crazy!)
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2010-11-24T18:40:12  <bhasker> woooohoooo
2010-11-24T18:40:44  <bhasker> owned
2010-11-24T18:40:45  <bhasker> http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=1194069
2010-11-24T18:40:48  <bhasker> yay
2010-11-24T18:40:49  <bhasker> party time
2010-11-24T18:41:27  <bhasker> mega1
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2010-11-24T18:55:27  <McLeopold> bhasker: how did you manage that win?
2010-11-24T18:55:55  <bhasker> i split my availabilityQ into two now
2010-11-24T18:55:58  <bhasker> one for attack/defense
2010-11-24T18:56:02  <bhasker> and one for acquiring neutrals
2010-11-24T18:56:21  <bhasker> any ship over minimum required to retain control is available for attack
2010-11-24T18:56:42  <bhasker> when i funnlled to the 5 to the left
2010-11-24T18:56:44  <bhasker> he didnt
2010-11-24T18:57:01  <bhasker> as a result my 5 growth ont he side had enough ships to take his 5
2010-11-24T18:57:08  <bhasker> so we swapped
2010-11-24T18:57:13  <bhasker> and swapped again
2010-11-24T18:57:19  <bhasker> that led to him being behind on ships
2010-11-24T18:57:23  <bhasker> and from there it was over
2010-11-24T18:57:44  <McLeopold> how did you send the 151 if you have a check to maintain control?
2010-11-24T18:57:46  <bhasker> watch Turn 16
2010-11-24T18:57:56  <bhasker> as i said, that check is in place only for acquiring neutrals
2010-11-24T18:58:05  <bhasker> so what i do is i calculate two availability Q's
2010-11-24T18:58:12  <bhasker> one for deciding whether i can acquire neutrals
2010-11-24T18:58:22  <bhasker> and one for whether i can attack/defend stuff
2010-11-24T18:58:38  <bhasker> the second queue has no restrictions except that i can't launch ships that would cause me to lose the planet
2010-11-24T18:58:56  <bhasker> so on turn 16 my bot saw that it had 151 available
2010-11-24T18:59:06  <bhasker> and enemy had only 126
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2010-11-24T18:59:08  <bhasker> so it launched
2010-11-24T18:59:18  <bhasker> it worked in this case because planets were equal growth
2010-11-24T18:59:22  <bhasker> but it bites me in the ass
2010-11-24T18:59:31  <bhasker> when i swap from a good to a  bad
2010-11-24T18:59:40  <McLeopold> yeah, that's tricky
2010-11-24T18:59:43  <bhasker> like a 5 growth to a 2growth or something
2010-11-24T19:00:10  <bhasker> also for some reason his bot sent 31 ships
2010-11-24T19:00:10  <bhasker> to the other 5
2010-11-24T19:00:13  <bhasker> at turn 28
2010-11-24T19:00:18  <bhasker> which allowed me to take it back
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2010-11-24T19:01:02  <bhasker> you can see it in action here
2010-11-24T19:01:03  <bhasker> http://72.44.46.68/canvas?game_id=1194299
2010-11-24T19:01:07  <bhasker> though i need to fix my invalid order bug
2010-11-24T19:01:08  <bhasker> !@#!
2010-11-24T19:01:16  <bhasker> but i pretty much steamrolled that game
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2010-11-24T19:02:58  <bhasker> the other thing i have realized most bots freeze up
2010-11-24T19:03:02  <bhasker> if you launch a big fleet at them
2010-11-24T19:03:30  <bhasker> so if you launch from a planet with lots of ships to another one with lots of ships some bots just decide they can't send anything out
2010-11-24T19:03:33  <bhasker> and sit
2010-11-24T19:03:46  <McLeopold> I think I may do that
2010-11-24T19:03:54  <McLeopold> But I consider it a good thing
2010-11-24T19:04:25  <McLeopold> I always want a few ships on the map as possible.
2010-11-24T19:04:32  <McLeopold> as few
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2010-11-24T19:04:46  <rebelxt_> McLeopold: can you get antbot going?
2010-11-24T19:04:56  <McLeopold> Sure, give me a second
2010-11-24T19:05:02  <McLeopold> I'll but it on zeroviz
2010-11-24T19:05:05  <McLeopold> put
2010-11-24T19:05:17  <bhasker> as in your bot prefers to reduce total ships on maps?
2010-11-24T19:05:24  <McLeopold> yes
2010-11-24T19:05:26  <rebelxt_> cool, i have a couple of mine on zeroviz
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2010-11-24T19:06:03  <McLeopold> I've got pretty good calculations to keep forces moving even with incoming.
2010-11-24T19:06:20  <bhasker> ah k
2010-11-24T19:06:26  <McLeopold> My problem is, move to where?
2010-11-24T19:06:29  <McLeopold> :)
2010-11-24T19:06:38  <bhasker> hehe usually my bot will just counter launch
2010-11-24T19:07:08  <bhasker> unless its from a big planet to a big planet i think mine will also wait and see the big fleet incoming
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2010-11-24T19:08:24  <McLeopold> Okay, I've just put planet swap code in.  Let's see how I do...
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2010-11-24T19:08:52  <pccc> In the final contest, I assume it's only going to be pairwise competitions? Meaning no 3+ player games?
2010-11-24T19:09:12  <McLeopold> yep
2010-11-24T19:09:32  <bhasker> do you have checks for when to swap though
2010-11-24T19:09:49  <McLeopold> wow, not good
2010-11-24T19:09:52  <zeratul> finally beat phreeza :O
2010-11-24T19:10:07  <bhasker> yea planet swaps are tricky to get right
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2010-11-24T19:10:13  <bhasker> sometimes it does dumb shit
2010-11-24T19:10:22  <bhasker> like sending ships from a front line to support some random planet
2010-11-24T19:10:25  <bhasker> and loses the frontline
2010-11-24T19:10:26  <McLeopold> holy crap, it is good!
2010-11-24T19:10:47  <McLeopold> that might have been luck
2010-11-24T19:11:00  <bhasker> i tried 3 different variations
2010-11-24T19:11:11  <bhasker> for all planets assume you can send out everything
2010-11-24T19:11:17  <bhasker> but then it would acquire neutrals when it shouldn't
2010-11-24T19:11:22  <McLeopold> http://tcp.zeroviz.us/canvas.cgi?game_id=24373
2010-11-24T19:11:57  <rebelxt_> janzert: ping
2010-11-24T19:12:01  <amstan> rebelxt_: ?
2010-11-24T19:12:25  <bhasker> interesting
2010-11-24T19:13:08  <bhasker> how did you put that in so quickly though:p
2010-11-24T19:13:22  <McLeopold> it's a simple check
2010-11-24T19:14:22  <bhasker> if attackingPlanet.Growth() > my.Growth() : allow_swap?
2010-11-24T19:14:56  <McLeopold> pretty much
2010-11-24T19:15:22  <McLeopold> a problem would be if I swapped from 3 growth 2 planets to a growth 5
2010-11-24T19:15:26  <McLeopold> not a good trade
2010-11-24T19:15:34  <McLeopold> I'm not checking for that yet
2010-11-24T19:16:16  <bhasker> yea main reason i haven't put checks in
2010-11-24T19:16:24  <bhasker> its hard when multiple planets are attacking
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2010-11-24T19:18:45  <McLeopold> hmm, my swap failed to happen
2010-11-24T19:19:13  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(3534), Raschi(3339), asavis(3293), bix0r4ever(3278), smloh1(3241), dmj111(3235), _Astek_(3226), Neverstu(3197), Accoun(3164), luksian(3151)
2010-11-24T19:19:32  <McLeopold> okay, rebelxt_
2010-11-24T19:20:34  <McLeopold> I think I'm going to get lucky again
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2010-11-24T19:24:29  <McLeopold> http://tcp.zeroviz.us/canvas.cgi?game_id=24400
2010-11-24T19:24:48  <McLeopold> rebelxt_: ^^
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2010-11-24T19:26:25  <sjl> Maybe this is a dumb question, but how does my bot know which player (1 or 2) it is (in regards to the game state updates)?
2010-11-24T19:26:51  <McLeopold> always 1
2010-11-24T19:27:10  <McLeopold> the game engine swaps the numbers for each player
2010-11-24T19:27:20  <sjl> Ah, wonderful.  Was that explained somewhere that I missed?  It's hard to ctrl+f for "1"...
2010-11-24T19:27:34  <sjl> nevermind, I just found it :(
2010-11-24T19:28:43  <McLeopold> bhasker: does malazan-max do swaping?
2010-11-24T19:28:47  <bhasker> yes
2010-11-24T19:28:52  <bhasker> but its not very smart
2010-11-24T19:28:55  <bhasker> when it comes to swaps
2010-11-24T19:29:18  <McLeopold> I just steamrolled it and didn't see any evidance.
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2010-11-24T19:29:53  <bhasker> dont see where it could have done it
2010-11-24T19:30:21  <McLeopold> :)
2010-11-24T19:30:31  <McLeopold> Thus my planet security code works.
2010-11-24T19:30:36  <bhasker> heh
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2010-11-24T19:35:45  <McLeopold> swap code in action -> http://tcp.zeroviz.us/canvas.cgi?game_id=24440
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2010-11-24T19:36:16  <rebelxt_> McLeopold: yeah i saw that game ;) i keep getting disconnected from IRC server today..
2010-11-24T19:37:08  <McLeopold> taking that 3+5 in the middle was cool
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2010-11-24T19:39:28  <McLeopold> hmm... swap worked again.
2010-11-24T19:39:41  <McLeopold> I think I need to put in the total swap growth amount check now
2010-11-24T19:39:56  <rebelxt_> anti-sniping code messed up again ;)
2010-11-24T19:40:00  <McLeopold> and select the proper planet to swap from, it there is more than one choice
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2010-11-24T19:41:57  <McLeopold> crap, mega1 built faster
2010-11-24T19:42:45  <McLeopold> I'm going to lose by 18
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2010-11-24T19:46:11  <rebelxt_> yeah, he is hard to beat on expansion. the only way to beat him is to capture middle when he is expanding and not ready to respond.. it happens rarely
2010-11-24T19:46:52  <McLeopold> except when the middle looks like this: http://tcp.zeroviz.us/canvas.cgi?game_id=24462
2010-11-24T19:47:25  <McLeopold> hmm, swap failure
2010-11-24T19:47:28  <rebelxt_> yeah ;)
2010-11-24T19:48:46  <rebelxt_> McLeopold: do you have any script to get by player stats off off zeroviz? i.e. W/L/D stats against a particular player. if not, i'd write one
2010-11-24T19:49:15  <McLeopold> no, but that's a good idea
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2010-11-24T20:05:07  <rebelxt_> McLeopold: damn 0-growth planets ;-) http://zeroviz.us:8080/canvas.cgi?game_id=24520
2010-11-24T20:05:58  <McLeopold> I'm losing on that same map right now
2010-11-24T20:06:31  <jmcarthur> i'm still impressed by that bot produced by genetic programming
2010-11-24T20:07:13  <jmcarthur> i wonder if it will end up in the top 100
2010-11-24T20:07:48  <rebelxt_> yeah, ranked 156 atm - much stronger than most expected a GA bot to be
2010-11-24T20:08:36  <jmcarthur> well, it's not GA like most GA algorithms
2010-11-24T20:08:40  <jmcarthur> it's actually genetic programming
2010-11-24T20:08:56  <sjl> GP != GA
2010-11-24T20:09:00  <jmcarthur> the ai code itself is generated by a genetic algorithm :D
2010-11-24T20:09:07  *** smellyhippy <smellyhippy!~asmodean@about/csharp/regular/smellyhippy> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2010-11-24T20:09:07  <sjl> Though I shudder to look at the code required to do GP in PHP :\
2010-11-24T20:09:09  <jmcarthur> well, GP -> GA, but not GA -> GP
2010-11-24T20:09:16  <rebelxt_> i meant GP
2010-11-24T20:09:45  <jmcarthur> you weren't wrong, just imprecise :)
2010-11-24T20:10:40  <rebelxt_> i wonder if they are mixing in some heuristics now..
2010-11-24T20:11:45  <rebelxt_> hope they do a detailed write-up after 27th
2010-11-24T20:12:30  <sjl> I'm screwing around with Clojure for the first time ever to make a GP bot for this contest... I wish I had heard about it before today :\
2010-11-24T20:13:10  <jmcarthur> there's always next time!
2010-11-24T20:13:17  <McLeopold> dang rebelxt_, sometime I just have your number
2010-11-24T20:13:21  <sjl> When's next time?
2010-11-24T20:13:27  <jmcarthur> dunno yet
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2010-11-24T20:13:40  <sjl> Roughly?  A year?  Two?
2010-11-24T20:13:41  <jmcarthur> this this isn't the first contest, or the last
2010-11-24T20:13:56  <jmcarthur> the last one was less than a year ago
2010-11-24T20:15:29  <rebelxt_> McLeopold: seems you win more often. just like your scottbot kicked my original submission's butt two months ago
2010-11-24T20:15:45  <McLeopold> no, I've had some bad losses to you just now
2010-11-24T20:16:13  <McLeopold> okay, three in a row, but it's the map type
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2010-11-24T20:16:58  <McLeopold> when the map is spead out, I don't do good
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2010-11-24T20:17:02  <McLeopold> I need a strong center
2010-11-24T20:17:57  <rebelxt_> woah - thanks for showing me obvious bug: http://zeroviz.us:8080/canvas.cgi?game_id=24562
2010-11-24T20:18:21  <McLeopold> yeah, that's bot making 101 :P
2010-11-24T20:18:33  <rebelxt_> you win close starts and most line symmetrical maps
2010-11-24T20:18:44  <McLeopold> It's the classic "off by one"
2010-11-24T20:18:57  <rebelxt_> exactly, but i thought this was fixed like a month ago :(
2010-11-24T20:19:13  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(3535), Raschi(3373), bix0r4ever(3305), asavis(3291), dmj111(3237), _Astek_(3229), smloh1(3220), Neverstu(3184), Accoun(3163), luksian(3148)
2010-11-24T20:19:21  <McLeopold> you could have sent 32 and been okay
2010-11-24T20:19:41  <McLeopold> then you would have beat me
2010-11-24T20:21:44  <rebelxt_> nice run
2010-11-24T20:22:04  <McLeopold> this is a good game
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2010-11-24T20:33:12  <j3camero> Oh snap. I am fapping to this Google Analytics page guys.
2010-11-24T20:34:05  <j3camero> We've got 170 new joiners in the last day. w00t!
2010-11-24T20:34:58  <virdo> must.. extend.. contest.. :)
2010-11-24T20:35:53  <Zannick> three days is good enough
2010-11-24T20:35:58  <Zannick> ;)
2010-11-24T20:37:51  <zeratul> j3camero: I'm one of them :)
2010-11-24T20:40:06  <sjl> j3camero: so am I
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2010-11-24T20:43:16  <Zannick> posting on reddit was clearly a great idea, j3camero
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2010-11-24T20:45:02  <CharlesBucket> Is rule against more than one submission?
2010-11-24T20:46:12  <Zannick> you can't have more than one account
2010-11-24T20:46:25  <Zannick> uploading a new submission overwrites any old ones you had
2010-11-24T20:47:17  <CharlesBucket> OIC, I read of individuals submitting multiple bots through different accounts to boost their chances of winning.  I thought something was wrong with that.
2010-11-24T20:47:39  <Zannick> that is against the rules, yes
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2010-11-24T20:49:03  <j3camero> Welcome to the contest zeratul and sjl
2010-11-24T20:49:18  <j3camero> Zannick: posting on Reddit is *always* a good idea.
2010-11-24T20:49:56  <zeratul> I think I'm doing fairly well for just starting, but what's a good way to figure out how I'm crashing besides commenting/uncommenting blocks of code until I find where the problem is (since it doesn't happen every game)
2010-11-24T20:50:25  <Zannick> j3camero: well, it was how i got here back in september
2010-11-24T21:19:15  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(3508), bix0r4ever(3265), Raschi(3243), dmj111(3241), asavis(3201), luksian(3146), medrimonia(3126), jimrogerz(3124), felixcoto(3123), Manwe56(3123)
2010-11-24T21:19:42  <burny> analyze the games
2010-11-24T21:19:54  <burny> probably happens when..
2010-11-24T21:20:06  <burny> all your ships are in flight already, or the opponent has no planets, etc.
2010-11-24T21:29:26  <j3camero> So I was thinking some more about my idea for an AI contest... the prediction market. What if we created a market where you could trade YouTube videos? When you buy a video, if it gets more popular, you make money. If you think a video is over-rated you could sell it short.
2010-11-24T21:30:47  <j3camero> Of course, we would have a web interface for this market, sort of like InTrade. We would also have an API so you could connect electronically and make markets and do other high-frequency trading strategies. Maybe a little technical analysis or something. You could also do fundamental trades where your program goes and queries the latest amount of views and trades based off of that.
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2010-11-24T21:32:10  <j3camero> Seems to me like trading YouTube videos as if they were stocks would be lots of fun. Also, it would generate predictions about which videos are going to rise in popularity and which are going to fall.
2010-11-24T21:35:43  <antimatroid1> i like the idea of working out some kind of virtual information market
2010-11-24T21:35:51  <antimatroid1> where the bots interact and it's all handled inside that
2010-11-24T21:36:03  <antimatroid1> i'll put more thought into it after this week, i'm flat out trying to get the bot done
2010-11-24T21:37:59  <pyro-> there's no possibility of automatically predicting the popularity of a video based on its content. you can only judge via its existing popularity. so it might as well be any virtual resource
2010-11-24T21:38:06  <sjl> is a "no-op" move illegal?
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2010-11-24T21:41:09  <Zannick> as in, launching 0 ships or launching to the same planet?
2010-11-24T21:41:30  <Zannick> the latter is illegal, the former is ignored, i believe
2010-11-24T21:41:58  <sjl> As in, when asked for actions by the game engine, send "go\n" and nothing else.
2010-11-24T21:42:32  <sjl> maybe "move" is the wrong term... how about "a no-op turn"?
2010-11-24T21:42:39  <Zannick> those are legal
2010-11-24T21:42:48  <sjl> hrm
2010-11-24T21:43:16  <sjl> the PlayGame.jar seems to think I've timed out when I just send "go\n"
2010-11-24T21:46:44  <j3camero> Are you using the starter package?
2010-11-24T21:46:52  <sjl> Yep, the java one
2010-11-24T21:46:59  <j3camero> If not, remember to do stdout.flush() after sending "go\n"
2010-11-24T21:47:11  <sjl> Though I'm very new to Clojure, so it's entirely possibly that I'm borking something somewhere.
2010-11-24T21:47:13  <sjl> hrm
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2010-11-24T21:47:34  <j3camero> Just flush stdout after every message that you send and that should stop you from timing out.
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2010-11-24T21:48:32  <burny> why wouldn't the engine flush after returning then?
2010-11-24T21:48:58  <j3camero> The engine, as in PlayGame.jar?
2010-11-24T21:49:03  <burny> ya
2010-11-24T21:49:11  <j3camero> It does.
2010-11-24T21:49:32  <j3camero> But the client program (your bot) also has to flush every time it sends output to the engine as well.
2010-11-24T21:50:15  <j3camero> Otherwise your instructions just sit in a buffer in your program's memory instead of actually being sent to the engine. So your engine waits around for 1000 milliseconds, gets nothing, then kicks your bot out of the game.
2010-11-24T21:53:53  * antimatroid1 checks that he's doing that right
2010-11-24T21:53:56  <j3camero> Oh man I really want to make this YouTube prediction market.
2010-11-24T21:54:04  <antimatroid1> my c++ bot pretty much entirely rewritten
2010-11-24T21:54:07  <j3camero> I want to make it right now.
2010-11-24T21:54:19  <antimatroid1> is*
2010-11-24T21:54:31  <antimatroid1> jeff what the hell were you doing with that tokenizing crap?
2010-11-24T21:54:43  <antimatroid1> that was horrendus, i removed all that and handle input with string streams
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2010-11-24T22:00:29  <sjl> Ugh, it just seems to be a case of the Clojure JVM taking a metric ass-ton of time to start up :(
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2010-11-24T22:00:48  <sjl> When I set time-per-move to 8 seconds it works every single time
2010-11-24T22:01:05  <sjl> without any manual flushing
2010-11-24T22:01:39  <burny> maybe you should upgrade it to imperial
2010-11-24T22:02:19  <sjl> imperial?
2010-11-24T22:02:50  * sjl is trying CLojure for the first time.
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2010-11-24T22:05:24  <j3camero> antimatroid1: lol, I make no excuses. I was coding on a deadline. I figured anybody who actually cared would slowly replace all the pieces of the starter package anyways.
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2010-11-24T22:06:11  <j3camero> C++ is the only language that doesn't come by default with a string.split() function. So I wrote my own.
2010-11-24T22:06:38  <antimatroid1> string streams :(
2010-11-24T22:06:40  <antimatroid1> :)*
2010-11-24T22:07:05  <Zannick> i just used C and scanf
2010-11-24T22:07:14  <Zannick> :)
2010-11-24T22:07:28  <antimatroid1> are you removing comments etc?
2010-11-24T22:07:41  <antimatroid1> i only just realised i need to get rid of anything like that last night
2010-11-24T22:07:55  <Zannick> yeah, it's just scanf("%c ") for the first character and case on that
2010-11-24T22:09:06  <Zannick> the ' ' part of that is the magic "and move forward in the input until just before the next nonwhitespace char
2010-11-24T22:09:09  <Zannick> "
2010-11-24T22:09:52  <janzert> Zannick: I assume you tested the java compiler changes with both java and non-java programs?
2010-11-24T22:10:43  <lavalamp_> well folks it was fun... I'm going on vacation so I guess I'm pretty much done with my bot. :'(
2010-11-24T22:10:57  <lavalamp_> there's so much I wanted to add :(
2010-11-24T22:11:29  <Zannick> janzert: i ran the test compiler dry runs and they all returned success
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2010-11-24T22:11:43  <Zannick> but the code paths for non java languages should not have changed
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2010-11-24T22:12:20  <janzert> ok, I don't remember how extensive the tests were. I'll have it setup locally in a bit
2010-11-24T22:12:28  <Zannick> great, thanks
2010-11-24T22:13:06  <Zannick> the dry run tests are "pretend i have these files, does the 'compilation' succeed?
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2010-11-24T22:16:25  <j3camero> Sup amstan
2010-11-24T22:19:15  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(3479), bix0r4ever(3292), Raschi(3275), Neverstu(3258), dmj111(3227), asavis(3154), medrimonia(3147), luksian(3137), _Astek_(3137), Slin-.-(3126)
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2010-11-24T22:24:33  <Zannick> hm, the java nukeglob isn't getting invoked
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2010-11-24T22:32:21  <Zannick> oh gee
2010-11-24T22:32:28  * Zannick facedesk
2010-11-24T22:33:34  <Zannick> it was trying to nuke files of the form "*.jar, *.class" rather than "*.jar" and "*.class"
2010-11-24T22:33:58  <janzert> oops
2010-11-24T22:35:34  <dmj111> hey, it's mostly admins talking now!  I wonder where everyone else is...
2010-11-24T22:35:48  <Zannick> well
2010-11-24T22:35:53  <burny> I'm playing games :)
2010-11-24T22:35:57  <Zannick> i can't believe i did that way back when and didn't notice
2010-11-24T22:36:23  <Zannick> well, fixed now
2010-11-24T22:36:31  <Zannick> but not in trunk
2010-11-24T22:37:35  <antimatroid1> dmj111: how are you going? done?
2010-11-24T22:37:43  <antimatroid1> i'm cutting it fine, but i should be done in time
2010-11-24T22:38:17  <Zannick> dmj111: i'm not actually an admin, just a contributor :)
2010-11-24T22:38:34  <antimatroid1> i didn't say he is :P
2010-11-24T22:39:21  <janzert> yeah, otherwise it seems to be working as well locally on java and c++ as the old one so go ahead and merge
2010-11-24T22:39:47  <Zannick> okay, then
2010-11-24T22:39:53  <antimatroid1> 3 rufes band people in the top 30
2010-11-24T22:40:00  <dmj111> ahh, just thought it was funny that the people doing the work had irc mostly to themselves, unlike normal.
2010-11-24T22:40:03  <janzert> afk again for a while, I'll get it on the server later
2010-11-24T22:40:26  <dmj111> antimatroid1: mostly done.  trying a few things, but I don't want to submit the last day or two if I can help it.
2010-11-24T22:40:44  <antimatroid1> hehe, it's going to be my first submission in weeks
2010-11-24T22:40:50  <antimatroid1> i plan to get one up at least tomorrow
2010-11-24T22:41:07  <antimatroid1> that way i have a couple of days to try and fix things worst comes to worst
2010-11-24T22:41:13  <dmj111> that'll be good :)
2010-11-24T22:41:32  <dmj111> that's is kind of my plan too.  the time for big changes is done, I think.  Spent enough time on this already.
2010-11-24T22:41:43  <antimatroid1> i'm still implementing a few big things
2010-11-24T22:41:50  <antimatroid1> but the strategy is sound so should be alright i think
2010-11-24T22:42:12  <antimatroid1> i'm putting in a last ditch all or nothing effort :P
2010-11-24T22:42:46  <Zannick> janzert: no problem, just ping me if you need anything more
2010-11-24T22:42:50  <antimatroid1> atm it's beating iouri, accoun and baron etc. sometimes, but making some stupid moves at other times
2010-11-24T22:42:54  <antimatroid1> i'm trying to remove the stupid
2010-11-24T22:43:12  <dmj111> everytime i try to remove the stupid, I put more back in.
2010-11-24T22:43:33  <antimatroid1> hehe, like i said, all or nothing :)
2010-11-24T22:44:11  <dmj111> one bad thing is my bot is starting to like 200 turn games.  bad for testing, bad for the server for the final tournament.  oh, and boring.
2010-11-24T22:44:24  <antimatroid1> my bot likes fast games :)
2010-11-24T22:44:55  <antimatroid1> we realised yesterday that it's a prisoners dilemma about whether you should rape your resources for the full second
2010-11-24T22:45:03  <antimatroid1> i shall cooperate, but i really think that needs to be fixed
2010-11-24T22:45:06  <antimatroid1> in the future
2010-11-24T22:45:21  <burny> I'm gona add some code that if my bot has more regen, and is above a 5growth lead, to turn into 'end the game' mode
2010-11-24T22:45:33  <antimatroid1> burny: have you done future states yet?
2010-11-24T22:45:37  <burny> no
2010-11-24T22:45:44  <antimatroid1> that will get you the biggest improvement for something you could do in a couple of days
2010-11-24T22:45:51  <burny> clearly
2010-11-24T22:50:04  <dmj111> the code i use at home runs the bots one at a time.  if both crash, draw, but if one crashes, it loses.
2010-11-24T22:50:19  <dmj111> since I am on a crappy old computer...
2010-11-24T22:52:33  <burny> know what might be more interesting then a graph of number of turns vs rank?... match duration vs rank
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2010-11-24T23:19:15  <contestbot> Top 10 players: bocsimacko(3477), Raschi(3261), bix0r4ever(3235), dmj111(3222), Neverstu(3211), Slin-.-(3196), medrimonia(3171), SUA.khb(3152), _Astek_(3138), luksian(3127)
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2010-11-24T23:29:35  <janzert> java package support should be working on the main site now
2010-11-24T23:30:00  <janzert> anyone have a bot written in java that could use a few packages to test it out?
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