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2010-12-04T03:51:23  <antimatroid> jeez, anyone'd think the contest ended or something
2010-12-04T04:05:45  <Meatkat> I know right,
2010-12-04T04:05:52  <Meatkat> I'm really excited about the killer ant idea though
2010-12-04T04:06:03  <Meatkat> http://ai-contest.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1205&start=10
2010-12-04T04:06:31  <Meatkat> It's full of win and awesomeness, which are two pretty good things to be full of
2010-12-04T04:08:20  <antimatroid> yeah, it should be cool
2010-12-04T04:08:30  <antimatroid> i'd be surprised if it isn't used tbh, enough people seem keen
2010-12-04T04:09:23  <antimatroid> having said that, i think the organisers need to work a lot of the specifics out without help from anyone planning to compete
2010-12-04T04:11:42  <Meatkat> Yeah, well at least no one can know what specifics they are choosing to use before the contest starts
2010-12-04T04:12:09  <antimatroid> i like the idea of them just providing strict upper bounds on maps at the start
2010-12-04T04:12:22  <antimatroid> then letting the more interesting types of maps work themselves out to be used at the end
2010-12-04T04:12:47  <antimatroid> because it usually isn't clear which maps are coolest untill a bunch of people have started playing around
2010-12-04T04:13:13  <Meatkat> So translated to this contest... have maybe 300 maps to start with and gradually phase out ones with 'boring' or redundant win/loss records?
2010-12-04T04:13:25  <Meatkat> throwing in new maps to replace them
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2010-12-04T04:13:31  <Meatkat> like a GA map chooser...
2010-12-04T04:13:32  <antimatroid> no, final contest should always have a new set of randomly generated maps
2010-12-04T04:13:42  <antimatroid> it's the generator i don't wont set in stone right at the start
2010-12-04T04:14:14  <antimatroid> i quite like the idea of a brand new map for every game
2010-12-04T04:14:34  <antimatroid> with the games getting so fuzzy, i don't think it will make much difference to the rankings
2010-12-04T04:14:42  <antimatroid> i would be opposed to such a thing with something like tron
2010-12-04T04:15:17  <Meatkat> Right
2010-12-04T04:15:29  <antimatroid> Meatkat: http://www.wired.com/magazine/2010/11/mf_algorithmolympics/all/1 you aren't the person in that story are you? :P
2010-12-04T04:15:40  <antimatroid> i'm pretty sure you're older, but the country is right
2010-12-04T04:16:38  <Meatkat> That's going to take a while to load... but probably not. I'm a Peace Corps volunteer here.
2010-12-04T04:17:34  <Meatkat> Teaching computer literacy in a tiny city/large village
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2010-12-04T08:04:06  <Accoun> 1
2010-12-04T08:09:12  <Mistmanov> 2
2010-12-04T08:09:26  <antimatroid> 3
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2010-12-04T08:17:10  <Error323> 4
2010-12-04T08:27:22  <Error323> antimatroid: generator should be set in stone before hand >_>
2010-12-04T08:27:34  <Error323> lets not make that mistake again
2010-12-04T08:27:35  <Error323> :P
2010-12-04T08:27:59  <antimatroid> why?
2010-12-04T08:28:26  <antimatroid> maximum parameters yes, but i don't see why the map gen should be in stone right at the start :\
2010-12-04T08:29:43  <Error323> it's vital to learning algo's and time related approaches
2010-12-04T08:29:49  <Error323> don't make us start this discussion again
2010-12-04T08:30:03  <antimatroid> i don't see how it's vital to those things
2010-12-04T08:30:06  <Error323> if you make the mapgen solid at start but very broad its ok already
2010-12-04T08:30:07  <antimatroid> they can learn on example maps
2010-12-04T08:30:22  <Error323> parameterized
2010-12-04T08:30:30  <antimatroid> ?
2010-12-04T08:30:37  <Error323> but not switch to version 3.0 with completely different map types =)
2010-12-04T08:30:43  <Error323> cuz that _is_ fail
2010-12-04T08:31:46  <antimatroid> what about if map generators started at a maximum genearlity
2010-12-04T08:31:52  <antimatroid> then only restrictions were allowed to be made?
2010-12-04T08:32:10  <antimatroid> such that trivial draw maps can at least attempt to be minimised
2010-12-04T08:32:21  <Error323> no! how hard is it to make a mapgen that's used at start and end (!) wtf
2010-12-04T08:32:30  <Error323> just give it parameters or sth
2010-12-04T08:32:45  <Error323> but don't change the code
2010-12-04T08:33:13  <antimatroid> well with this, you needed to add changes to get non-integer distances, make sure at least one neutral could be taken
2010-12-04T08:33:15  <antimatroid> etc.
2010-12-04T08:33:20  <antimatroid> you couldn't have added those
2010-12-04T08:33:35  <antimatroid> rounding issues could have been a problem and there would have been more draw maps on average
2010-12-04T08:33:45  <Error323> ??
2010-12-04T08:33:53  <Error323> this stuff can all be figured out beforehand
2010-12-04T08:33:57  <antimatroid> also, i think in the future one might want to revise min starting distances between players
2010-12-04T08:34:01  <Error323> s/can/should
2010-12-04T08:34:16  <antimatroid> my point is that not all ideal conditions are necessarily obvious at the start
2010-12-04T08:34:20  <antimatroid> take neutral resolution with this
2010-12-04T08:34:31  <antimatroid> at the start it was completely broken, should it have just been left broken?
2010-12-04T08:34:39  <Error323> imo, yes
2010-12-04T08:34:42  <antimatroid> and that brokenness was part of the game?
2010-12-04T08:34:46  <Error323> it was broken for everyone
2010-12-04T08:34:59  <antimatroid> that would have been a very shitty contest
2010-12-04T08:35:05  <Error323> and take it with you for the future contest, learn from it. make sure to test the maps produced properly
2010-12-04T08:36:26  <antimatroid> i'd rather it if they said hey here is an EXAMPLE generator, all final maps will be possible to generate with this, but not necessarily all maps generatable by it will be there at the end, and while we will try to keep things as is, any necessary changes will be made up till a month before the final contest or something
2010-12-04T08:36:38  <antimatroid> that way we aren't stuck with stupid bugs
2010-12-04T08:37:53  <Error323> sure, but for the contestant its a nightmare
2010-12-04T08:38:03  <Error323> and they are more important
2010-12-04T08:38:18  <antimatroid> it's not that much of an issue :\
2010-12-04T08:38:33  <Error323> it depends on the type of bug you wanna fix
2010-12-04T08:38:45  <Error323> and the type of algorithm the contestant is using
2010-12-04T08:38:59  <Error323> and the time he still has left
2010-12-04T08:39:19  <Error323> but 20 days before the deadline wasn't very smart :P in retrospect hehe
2010-12-04T08:39:40  <Error323> just set it all in stone beforehand
2010-12-04T08:39:44  <Error323> and everyone is happy
2010-12-04T08:40:26  <antimatroid> hmmm, well it's not my choice anyway
2010-12-04T08:40:37  <antimatroid> but i don't like setting everything in stone right at the start
2010-12-04T08:40:51  <antimatroid> i would prefer a date set in stone which by everything needs to be set in stone by
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2010-12-04T08:43:42  <Error323> well aslong as that's clearnly communicated, i would just wait until that deadline
2010-12-04T08:49:08  <antimatroid> i think at least a week or two should be allowed for changes
2010-12-04T08:50:28  <Error323> yeah that's ok
2010-12-04T08:50:31  <Error323> imo
2010-12-04T08:51:36  <antimatroid> i might make a forum post at some point with stuff i think people want to improve the competitor experience
2010-12-04T08:52:22  <antimatroid> stuff like clearer rules, better posting of information on the main site, ability to get such changes emailed etc.
2010-12-04T08:57:06  <antimatroid> have i just become a selective ass, or have there been like no amazing movies in the last few years?
2010-12-04T08:57:19  <antimatroid> i can barely ever find something i'm even interested in sitting through
2010-12-04T08:58:45  <Error323> movies are crap yes
2010-12-04T08:59:11  <antimatroid> they are great when i just want to lie in bed and do nothing, they're just all so bleh :P
2010-12-04T08:59:33  <antimatroid> i'm getting iron man 2 now, it doesn't look amazing, but neither did the first and that was actually pretty cool
2010-12-04T09:01:00  <Error323> second is crap
2010-12-04T09:01:02  <Error323> =]
2010-12-04T09:01:09  <Error323> inception is okish
2010-12-04T09:01:19  <Error323> shutter island is good
2010-12-04T09:01:22  <antimatroid> inception was terrible after the hype it received
2010-12-04T09:02:30  <Error323> yea, did get way too much hype
2010-12-04T09:02:39  <antimatroid> any actual decent comedies?
2010-12-04T09:02:47  <Error323> hangover
2010-12-04T09:02:50  <Error323> =)
2010-12-04T09:02:54  <antimatroid> ergh, that movie was terrible :P
2010-12-04T09:02:58  <Error323> its the only one i know
2010-12-04T09:03:16  <Error323> Oh I watched it drunk with friends whilest in Germany, we lolled
2010-12-04T09:03:28  <antimatroid> i wish adam sandler never had kids
2010-12-04T09:04:08  <antimatroid> in fact i haven't seen grown ups, i shall grab that
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2010-12-04T09:49:08  <Accoun> lets play on TCP
2010-12-04T09:49:26  <davidd> will they turn the engine back on?
2010-12-04T09:49:37  <davidd> let the bots play against eachother
2010-12-04T09:49:44  <davidd> they could save the current rank
2010-12-04T09:49:44  <Accoun> http://tcp.zeroviz.us/ working
2010-12-04T09:50:06  <davidd> tcp is nice, but i want an official site thing like the compo
2010-12-04T09:50:53  <davidd> thx accoun
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2010-12-04T09:53:29  <Mistmanov> davidd: I believe they were hiring all the official servers.. would be somewhat of a waste of money to hire them while the comptetition is already finished
2010-12-04T09:53:42  <davidd> ah
2010-12-04T09:53:53  <davidd> so if i would supply some cpu power it could be done?
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2010-12-04T09:54:10  <Mistmanov> you'd have to ask the organizers that :p
2010-12-04T09:54:27  <davidd> well i have a server on 100Mbit con
2010-12-04T09:54:53  <davidd> i wouldnt mind running the entier bit
2010-12-04T09:54:54  <Accoun> davidd> setup TCP on it
2010-12-04T09:55:18  <davidd> no problem
2010-12-04T09:55:25  <davidd> that is open source server right
2010-12-04T09:55:28  <davidd> i run freebsd
2010-12-04T09:56:12  <Accoun> yes
2010-12-04T09:56:46  <Accoun> u also can run opensourse bots on it
2010-12-04T09:57:44  <davidd> is an extra tcp server needed at this time?
2010-12-04T09:57:53  <davidd> would there  be players on it?
2010-12-04T09:58:21  <Mistmanov> I'm guessing no :p
2010-12-04T09:58:50  <Mistmanov> http://tcp.zeroviz.us/ is still active right? and currently has 0 players, so..
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2010-12-04T10:01:11  <davidd> so Accoun
2010-12-04T10:01:32  <davidd> tell me, are you continuing on your bot if the competition restarted
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2010-12-04T10:12:08  <amstan> just a tought, just because you have the source code for a bot it doesn't mean that you have permissions to use it any way you want
2010-12-04T10:12:17  <amstan> what's a case where open source!=free software
2010-12-04T10:16:27  <antimatroid1> amstan: i'd be surprised if anyone cared
2010-12-04T10:16:42  <amstan> probably not most ppl, but they might
2010-12-04T10:16:47  <antimatroid1> it's sort of expected people will play around with it if they want by releasing it?
2010-12-04T10:16:53  <antimatroid1> i'm not sure why else they'd post it
2010-12-04T10:17:09  <amstan> don't kill the messenger
2010-12-04T10:17:12  <antimatroid1> i'm not
2010-12-04T10:17:16  <antimatroid1> just adding an opinion ;)
2010-12-04T10:17:31  <amstan> oh man.. the ants idea is getting way too out of hand, lol
2010-12-04T10:17:36  <Accoun> http://tcp.zeroviz.us/ working unsatabile
2010-12-04T10:17:42  <amstan> it's a cool idea, but too many ppl talking
2010-12-04T10:17:46  <antimatroid1> hehe, i think you guys need to come up with a simiplified version
2010-12-04T10:18:02  <antimatroid1> but without any actual contestants knowing many actual details now until about the time you're ready to go liv
2010-12-04T10:18:09  <antimatroid1> otherwise we get too much of a head start
2010-12-04T10:18:39  <antimatroid1> it seems a lot of people are interested in a game at least similar in concept though
2010-12-04T10:19:26  <antimatroid1> when i say simplified, i don't mean basic, just something that works well for an ai contest, the difficulty of planet wars was perfect imo
2010-12-04T10:19:27  <amstan> we had that during tron
2010-12-04T10:19:35  <amstan> i started working on my bot 2 weeks before it started
2010-12-04T10:19:46  <amstan> barely knewing the protocol, all i had was the starter pack
2010-12-04T10:21:42  <antimatroid1> also, with map generators, in future i think it's best to come out with an extremely general one at first, and stipulate that it could be restricted up to a specified date with corrections that are deemed to make the overall game more interesting etc.
2010-12-04T10:22:07  <antimatroid1> so pick maximum parameters and a map gen for both line and point symmetric maps and make it general under those restrictions
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2010-12-04T12:26:25  <burny> david: I belive that if cpu was donated, they would be much more interested in makig the compo's be permanently live(after completion)
2010-12-04T12:30:02  <burny> anti: I think nearly ALL issues with the map generator would be null and void, if the minimum distance between starting points was slightly larger(like 10), and the maps weren't symetrical(play twice, and whever wins faster, or both, wins the round)
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2010-12-04T13:21:22  <antimatroid1> burny: i don't like non-symmetric maps personally
2010-12-04T13:21:29  <antimatroid1> but that's just one opinion
2010-12-04T13:21:37  <antimatroid1> i do think starting positions need to be greater
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2010-12-04T14:07:12  <phreeza> have you guy seen this? http://www.steambirds.com/ that might make a good game... nice balance between turn based and dynamic
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2010-12-04T20:42:54  <Frontier> what do you think about the ants and spice idea when it comes to how the multiple processes can be implemented on the server
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2010-12-04T22:16:56  <bhasker> evening
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2010-12-04T22:21:36  <bhasker> hmm nobody around on a saturday evening
2010-12-04T22:27:19  <sigh> I'm here! although it's sunday afternoon for me
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2010-12-04T22:38:56  <antimatroid> yeah i'm about
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