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2010-12-07T00:02:07  <Snowplan> I want too build and create something and know you are the people who know what to build and create.
2010-12-07T00:03:20  <Snowplan> :)
2010-12-07T00:08:59  <Snowplan> Is there any site I should visit that might intrigue me?
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2010-12-07T00:11:15  <Snowplan> help
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2010-12-07T00:15:30  <Snowplan> Anyone love snowboarding?
2010-12-07T00:19:03  <Snowplan> is TCP still going on?
2010-12-07T00:19:23  <pgpaskar_> (( people are asleep ))
2010-12-07T00:19:41  <Snowplan> why?
2010-12-07T00:19:57  <antimatroid> i don't think there's many people running on the tcp servers if they're even still up sorry
2010-12-07T00:20:03  <antimatroid> i'm not asleep, it's 4 20pm
2010-12-07T00:20:37  <Snowplan> thats what I thought?
2010-12-07T00:21:26  <Snowplan> seriously no knowledge on the compsci
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2010-12-07T00:24:49  <pgpaskar_> antimatroid: ~12:25 AM in NA :P
2010-12-07T00:26:46  <Snowplan> crying shame!
2010-12-07T00:27:23  <sigh> NA?
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2010-12-07T00:36:07  <Snowplan> bored
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2010-12-07T00:49:56  <antimatroid> note to self, don't try to change gears on your bike with the wrong hand whenthe other hand is holding subway
2010-12-07T00:49:57  <antimatroid> ouch aha
2010-12-07T00:50:30  <antimatroid> worse was probably that some guy was like 20m behind and got to watch the whole thing
2010-12-07T00:50:48  <snydev> bruises?
2010-12-07T00:50:57  <antimatroid> not really, a few grazes on the wrist
2010-12-07T00:51:13  <antimatroid> a couple of years ago i came off someones bike at the skatepark and broke my shoulder
2010-12-07T00:51:27  <antimatroid> except didn't get it checked for a week, so i was driving around shifting gears with the wrong hand aha
2010-12-07T00:51:27  <snydev> ouch
2010-12-07T00:51:53  <antimatroid> hmmm, that was my first broken bone, i'd done a hell of a lot more painful things to my ankle
2010-12-07T00:53:42  <snydev> I've been thinking about what the next challenge could be
2010-12-07T00:54:00  <antimatroid> i think the ants idea is quite possible
2010-12-07T00:54:19  <snydev> I found a game that is on par with Tron and Planet Wars. It's called Alien Force
2010-12-07T00:54:33  <antimatroid> tron is too easy
2010-12-07T00:54:42  <snydev> Good luck finding anything online about it, though
2010-12-07T00:54:50  <antimatroid> planet wars was a good difficulty level, although ended up too heuristicy
2010-12-07T00:55:56  <snydev> I wrote a demo of Alien Force <http://snydev.com/pub/aforce/>
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2010-12-07T00:57:13  <snydev> I also made a demo of a game mechanic that I thought was interesting <http://snydev.com/pub/burn/>
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2010-12-07T01:00:58  <snydev> just fixed a small bug
2010-12-07T01:01:09  <snydev> all better now
2010-12-07T01:03:24  <snydev> i think alien force would end up being too "heuristicy" too
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2010-12-07T01:05:56  <snydev> a card game like mille bournes might be intesting
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2010-12-07T01:14:14  <snydev> *interesting (better late than never)
2010-12-07T01:20:35  <burny> freudina slip.. you meant intestine..
2010-12-07T01:21:22  <snydev> i must have
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2010-12-07T01:39:11  <snydev> i guess if you want to find stuff about alien force you have to search "alien force robert epps"
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2010-12-07T05:37:12  <antimatroid1> would anyone be keen on doing some tron offs?
2010-12-07T05:37:25  <antimatroid1> i think it'd be a pretty good game to try out different methods on
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2010-12-07T08:04:50  <Error323> howdy
2010-12-07T08:05:53  <antimatroid1> morning
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2010-12-07T08:22:03  <Error323> Yeah I'm gonna participate in the battlecode contest =)
2010-12-07T08:22:21  <Error323> very cool
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2010-12-07T08:27:32  <Error323> amstan: cool I never knew howto write an irc bot lol, but the contestbot is really easy with python
2010-12-07T08:27:58  <amstan> yeah
2010-12-07T08:30:30  <antimatroid1> i assume it just filters each line?
2010-12-07T08:30:43  <antimatroid1> @rainbow rainbows are awesome!
2010-12-07T08:30:43  <contestbot> antimatroid1: rainbows are awesome!
2010-12-07T08:33:49  <Error323> mmm don't know, it also seems the commands are not specified in this code
2010-12-07T08:33:53  <Error323> amstan: is it complete?
2010-12-07T08:34:03  <Error323> where is stuff like "@rankings" defined
2010-12-07T08:34:08  <amstan> no
2010-12-07T08:34:12  <sigh> @help alias rankings
2010-12-07T08:34:13  <contestbot> sigh: Error: There is no command "alias rankings".
2010-12-07T08:34:16  <amstan> it's just parsing the html directly
2010-12-07T08:34:17  <sigh> @help rankings
2010-12-07T08:34:17  <contestbot> sigh: (rankings [how many]) -- Get the top $(how many) players.
2010-12-07T08:34:21  <amstan> @botrepo
2010-12-07T08:34:21  <contestbot> amstan: botrepo = http://github.com/amstan/contestbot
2010-12-07T08:34:24  <amstan> rather ugly
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2010-12-07T08:34:48  <amstan> i also wanted to make it snarf urls
2010-12-07T08:34:52  <amstan> and describe the games
2010-12-07T08:34:58  <Error323> yeah, but i don't see where you specifiy the commands
2010-12-07T08:35:01  <Error323> @rankings
2010-12-07T08:35:01  <amstan> @describe 100000
2010-12-07T08:35:02  <contestbot> amstan: Run as fast as you can and don't look back.
2010-12-07T08:35:03  <contestbot> Error323: Top 10 players: bocsimacko(3765), _iouri_(3565), Slin-.-(3524), _Astek_(3501), jimrogerz(3500), Accoun(3498), george(3494), GreenTea(3489), asavis(3480), bix0r4ever(3476)
2010-12-07T08:35:15  <amstan> @game 100000
2010-12-07T08:35:16  <contestbot> amstan: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
2010-12-07T08:35:18  <sigh> Error323: rankings is defined by a call to the alias command
2010-12-07T08:35:19  <amstan> hmm
2010-12-07T08:35:24  <Error323> oh
2010-12-07T08:35:34  <antimatroid1> @top36
2010-12-07T08:35:35  <contestbot> antimatroid1: I do not know about 'top36', but I do know about these similar topics: 'tcp'
2010-12-07T08:35:39  <sigh> oh sorry
2010-12-07T08:35:41  <amstan> @game 9559558
2010-12-07T08:35:42  <contestbot> amstan: Game played at 2010-12-01 17:02:29, on map 1063, bocsimacko beat jambachili. http://ai-contest.com/visualizer_canvas.php?game_id=9559558
2010-12-07T08:35:48  <sigh> no, rankings is a function
2010-12-07T08:36:10  <Error323> hey delt0r_ did you participate in the contest btw?
2010-12-07T08:36:18  <antimatroid1> he did
2010-12-07T08:36:23  <delt0r_> I tried
2010-12-07T08:36:25  <delt0r_> and failed
2010-12-07T08:36:28  <antimatroid1> there is the username search function :P
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2010-12-07T08:36:31  <delt0r_> I never finished my bot
2010-12-07T08:36:32  <sigh> Error323: defined here: https://github.com/amstan/contestbot/blob/master/plugin.py
2010-12-07T08:36:50  <delt0r_> I have a bug in my work code thats put my 1 month behind....
2010-12-07T08:37:20  <delt0r_> me 1 month behind
2010-12-07T08:37:22  <antimatroid1> i still haven't been able to settle on something i want to do
2010-12-07T08:38:03  <Error323> delt0r_: ahhh... pitty
2010-12-07T08:38:14  <delt0r_> yea
2010-12-07T08:38:35  <delt0r_> After looking at others code i was definatly going in the right direction
2010-12-07T08:38:47  <Error323> sigh: ohh i was probing for @rankings in string format, but it just converts the functions from AIChallenge class or sth.
2010-12-07T08:39:08  <Error323> well that's comforting atleast =)
2010-12-07T08:39:17  <sigh> Error323: yeah, contestbot is just a plugin for supybot
2010-12-07T08:39:28  <sigh> it's not like it does all the parsing and stuff itself
2010-12-07T08:39:29  <delt0r_> But i havent' quite worked out how bismacro[winnder]  whatever his name is
2010-12-07T08:39:39  <delt0r_> did that was different from the other entrys.
2010-12-07T08:39:44  <sigh> bocsimacko?
2010-12-07T08:39:48  <delt0r_> yea
2010-12-07T08:39:50  <delt0r_> thx
2010-12-07T08:40:27  <delt0r_> basically all the top bots where doing more or less the same thing
2010-12-07T08:40:46  <sigh> hard to say exactly what part of his code sets it apart, only way to know is to actually play with the code
2010-12-07T08:40:51  <Error323> 1) define a solid eval function, 2) good action generation 3) 4-ply alphabeta in first turn and 1 ply otherwise
2010-12-07T08:41:05  <delt0r_> but bocsimacko kicked arse
2010-12-07T08:41:55  <Error323> his actions were different/better defined from the other contestants and his eval function was also different from e.g. iouri's as I understand it.
2010-12-07T08:42:34  <delt0r_> yea true
2010-12-07T08:42:46  <delt0r_> but its not really a fundamental difference
2010-12-07T08:43:01  <delt0r_> it was "eval huristuc"
2010-12-07T08:43:03  <Error323> well... those two things have massive impact...
2010-12-07T08:43:04  <delt0r_> do move
2010-12-07T08:43:16  <Error323> on performance
2010-12-07T08:44:40  <antimatroid1> are you guys actually still playing around and testing bots?
2010-12-07T08:44:46  <antimatroid1> or just looking at peoples code?
2010-12-07T08:44:48  <Error323> nah
2010-12-07T08:44:58  <sigh> just discussing code :P
2010-12-07T08:45:01  <Error323> well not me
2010-12-07T08:45:11  <antimatroid1> i need a new project!
2010-12-07T08:45:18  <antimatroid1> something as fun and addictive as planet wars
2010-12-07T08:45:27  <antimatroid1> that doesn't involve java
2010-12-07T08:45:31  <antimatroid1> :p
2010-12-07T08:45:31  <delt0r_> lol
2010-12-07T08:45:35  <delt0r_> to fast
2010-12-07T08:45:52  <delt0r_> my comment was irrelevant before entered
2010-12-07T08:45:56  <delt0r_> :P
2010-12-07T08:45:58  <antimatroid1> battlecode?
2010-12-07T08:46:03  <antimatroid1> i was pre empting that :)
2010-12-07T08:46:04  <delt0r_> no
2010-12-07T08:46:19  <delt0r_> as long as its not java...... right :P
2010-12-07T08:46:23  <Error323> antimatroid1: get over your java fears =)
2010-12-07T08:46:46  <Error323> who cares about language
2010-12-07T08:46:49  <delt0r_> don't do java
2010-12-07T08:46:55  <delt0r_> do JVM bytecode!
2010-12-07T08:47:00  <sigh> haha
2010-12-07T08:50:01  <antimatroid1> i think bed awaits
2010-12-07T08:50:10  <antimatroid1> it's been so hard to get my sleeping pattern back to normal
2010-12-07T08:50:17  <sigh> hmm... I should sleep too
2010-12-07T08:50:17  <antimatroid1> i keep going to bed at sunrise still
2010-12-07T08:50:29  <delt0r_> well i would go to bed
2010-12-07T08:50:32  <sigh> you've got no schedule to keep
2010-12-07T08:50:33  <delt0r_> but its 3pm
2010-12-07T08:50:35  <sigh> so it's ok
2010-12-07T08:50:43  <antimatroid1> sigh: it's still a hell of a waste of time to sleep all day
2010-12-07T08:51:04  <antimatroid1> particularly when i'm doing absolutely nothing productive through the night now
2010-12-07T08:51:12  <sigh> it wastes about as much time as sleeping all night
2010-12-07T08:51:46  <antimatroid1> other people are up and about then :P
2010-12-07T08:52:14  <sigh> oh, the morning people
2010-12-07T08:52:42  <antimatroid1> i don't know how people do mornings
2010-12-07T08:52:51  <antimatroid1> it takes a lot of effort to get me fully awake
2010-12-07T08:52:57  <sigh> anyway, I'm going to sleep
2010-12-07T08:53:00  <sigh> cya
2010-12-07T08:53:03  <delt0r_> shift to the EU
2010-12-07T08:53:16  <antimatroid1> night
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2010-12-07T08:53:17  <delt0r_> your just in the wrong timezone :)
2010-12-07T08:53:22  <delt0r_> l8r
2010-12-07T08:53:31  <antimatroid1> :p
2010-12-07T08:53:41  <antimatroid1> i do want out of australia
2010-12-07T08:53:49  <antimatroid1> if i had lots of money i'd just run off travelling
2010-12-07T08:53:50  <antimatroid1> but i don't
2010-12-07T08:54:12  <delt0r_> I traveled without money... perks of uni work
2010-12-07T08:54:29  <delt0r_> some grant somewhere paid for it
2010-12-07T08:54:42  <antimatroid1> yeah, that would be tasty
2010-12-07T08:54:57  <antimatroid1> it's also a lot more effort to get to another country from here than in europe
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2010-12-07T10:22:58  <Accoun> boring channel
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2010-12-07T10:23:36  <Accoun> would rather have the third world war
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2010-12-07T11:37:42  <amstan> Accoun: leave then
2010-12-07T12:18:20  <mega1> amstan: is there any information on the rps challange on the net?
2010-12-07T12:18:42  <amstan> mega1: umm, hold on
2010-12-07T12:19:14  <amstan> mega1: http://csclub.uwaterloo.ca/~j3camero/contest/fall2009/results.php
2010-12-07T12:22:20  <mega1> amstan: thanks. Do you know how the winning program worked? ;-)
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2010-12-07T12:29:38  <bhasker> mega1 question for you
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2010-12-07T12:30:00  <mega1> I'm all ears
2010-12-07T12:30:32  <bhasker> in a minmax solution how do you generate moves for snipes?
2010-12-07T12:31:09  <bhasker> since when i look 2 plys the move for a snipe may not be generated
2010-12-07T12:31:15  <bhasker> since its not required till 5 turns later
2010-12-07T12:31:35  <bhasker> so do you just go through all future states and generate future moves
2010-12-07T12:31:39  <bhasker> when building the tree?
2010-12-07T12:32:24  <mega1> a "move" that's generated and considered at ply 0 consists of potentially future orders
2010-12-07T12:32:30  <bhasker> ah k
2010-12-07T12:32:53  <bhasker> so you would generate a snipe  move, say 5 turns into the future?
2010-12-07T12:33:10  <bhasker> so artificially stretch the distance between the 2 planets and add a new fleet in?
2010-12-07T12:33:27  <bhasker> at the distance+future move number
2010-12-07T12:35:17  <mega1> I'd generate the moves for turn 5, no artificial stretching (can that be done without running into inconsistencies?)
2010-12-07T12:35:55  <bhasker> hmm
2010-12-07T12:36:20  <bhasker> what i meant is i change the turns remaining for the fleet to
2010-12-07T12:36:24  <bhasker> distance +5
2010-12-07T12:36:57  <bhasker> so that way it will evaluate the state correctly for snipes
2010-12-07T12:37:08  <bhasker> whats happening right now is it ends up trying to launch at planets next to enemy
2010-12-07T12:37:16  <bhasker> because at turn 2 the enemy doesn't generate any moves
2010-12-07T12:37:19  <bhasker> for those planets
2010-12-07T12:37:23  <bhasker> so they look more favourable
2010-12-07T12:37:37  <bhasker> than planets nearby for which enemy may generate moves
2010-12-07T12:38:52  <mega1> the evaluation function must pick up the slack when alpha-beta ends
2010-12-07T12:42:49  <bhasker> i am not sure i understand that
2010-12-07T12:42:55  <bhasker> i am not doing any pruning yet
2010-12-07T12:43:21  <bhasker> what do you mean evaluation should pick up the slack?
2010-12-07T12:46:13  <mega1> I mean that no matter how deep alpha-beta searches (as long as it stops before the end of the game) it will favor moves that the enemy cannot react to (at the last ply)
2010-12-07T12:46:35  <mega1> if it happens before the last ply then you need to fix the move generator
2010-12-07T12:48:00  <mega1> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Horizon_effect
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2010-12-07T12:53:03  <Frontier> Nice read. Especially the statement "when some negative event is inevitable, but postponable" is something to keep in mind.
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2010-12-07T13:37:36  <bhasker> hmm thanks mega1
2010-12-07T13:49:15  <bhasker> so mega1: should the move generator just not generate such crappy moves? or should it generate counters in the future for such moves which will make these moves infeasible?
2010-12-07T13:50:53  <bhasker> or should it just search deeper for certain moves, i am reading that link but not sure how i can determine which moves need deeper searching in a game like this
2010-12-07T13:51:38  <bhasker> i am not sure deeper search would necessarily work given that sometimes the counter might be 30 turns into the future
2010-12-07T13:51:53  <bhasker> which will make the search too broad
2010-12-07T13:55:43  <Frontier> I think the participants are split at some point. Some want to solve problems with the perfect solution, otheres want to create real AIs that behave the best they can on an unsolvable problem.
2010-12-07T13:56:25  <Frontier> PlanetWars was somewhat inbetween a programming and an ai challenge.
2010-12-07T13:57:38  <bhasker> yea i  feel a pure minmax would need too deep a search
2010-12-07T13:57:45  <bhasker> to be effective
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2010-12-07T13:57:54  <bhasker> without some heuristics support to just prune bad moves
2010-12-07T13:58:41  <bhasker> the difference between go/chess and this game is , in chess/go you are limited to 1 move per turn , here a user can many any number of moves
2010-12-07T13:59:05  <bhasker> make* any
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2010-12-07T14:16:18  <burny> I think a 1level minimax would have won the contest
2010-12-07T14:17:29  <burny> frontier: I think people who want to 'solve' a problem.. have no place in an AI competition.. there's plenty of other ones(though, I don't know why one would bother)
2010-12-07T14:27:10  <bhasker> i am not sure burny how you claim that a 1 level minmax will have won it?
2010-12-07T14:27:34  <bhasker> and i think mega1s was a 1 level minmax
2010-12-07T14:27:49  <burny> so.. i was correct then? :P
2010-12-07T14:28:13  <bhasker> well there were other 1 level minmax too
2010-12-07T14:28:18  <bhasker> but they didnt do so well
2010-12-07T14:28:24  <burny> cause they weren't done as well
2010-12-07T14:28:24  <bhasker> and it was not like mega1s bot never lost
2010-12-07T14:31:18  <burny> it did clearly dominate though
2010-12-07T14:32:08  <iamluck> antimatroid was minimax too, no?
2010-12-07T14:32:41  <burny> mine was a 0.5level minimax
2010-12-07T14:33:28  <bhasker> 1 ply?
2010-12-07T14:33:37  <burny> 0ply
2010-12-07T14:33:45  <bhasker> eh how is it minmax then
2010-12-07T14:33:47  <burny> it had zero concern for what the opponent might do
2010-12-07T14:34:44  <bhasker> so there is no minmax happening?
2010-12-07T14:34:44  <iamluck> to be clear, you still use heuristics for (possible) orders -- and use minimax to find the best combination of those orders, right?
2010-12-07T14:34:59  * iamluck is noob :/
2010-12-07T14:35:03  <bhasker> its just maximizing your potential score
2010-12-07T14:35:22  <bhasker> you are just doing order scoring if there is no real minimizing happen
2010-12-07T14:35:28  <burny> in the strictest sense iam: no.. minmax requires significantly more than what I was doing
2010-12-07T14:36:54  <burny> it just recursed "find(bestmove),  if (bestmove.valid) then(bestmove.apply)  else return;
2010-12-07T14:38:14  <lavalamp> burny, how did your entry end up finishing?
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2010-12-07T14:38:47  <iamluck> burny is the last player to join to get into top 100 :P
2010-12-07T14:39:06  <burny> really?
2010-12-07T14:39:19  <lavalamp> burny == eburnette?
2010-12-07T14:39:23  <burny> no
2010-12-07T14:39:27  <lavalamp> I didn't think so
2010-12-07T14:39:35  <burny> nikiburny
2010-12-07T14:39:58  <iamluck> http://ai-contest.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=1211 : "Also congratulations to nikiburny for having the newest account in the top 100..." :)
2010-12-07T14:40:04  <burny> lol
2010-12-07T14:40:05  <burny> nice
2010-12-07T14:40:16  <lavalamp> oh right, name is too similar, I misremembered
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2010-12-07T14:41:50  <lavalamp> move generation is critical... that is why my bot sucked. The 1 or 2 ply lookahead doesn't add much if you don't generate good moves to begin with
2010-12-07T14:42:20  <burny> I'm mainly surprised I'm the newest account in top100, cause I created it about a week before I started doing anything with it
2010-12-07T14:42:52  <burny> ya, lava.. was super critical to make good moves..
2010-12-07T14:43:01  <burny> since exact numbers were given on the entire game mechanics
2010-12-07T14:43:34  <burny> like, if instead of fleet(x) giving a value of 'x'..
2010-12-07T14:43:58  <burny> it gave a value of say.. "min(1,ceil(sqrt(x)) +- random(3))
2010-12-07T14:44:01  <burny> or some such..
2010-12-07T14:44:11  <burny> it would have been incredibally less critical
2010-12-07T14:45:11  <lavalamp> yeah...
2010-12-07T14:46:19  <burny> from my perspective(which is obviously correct).. to compete with the strongest bots, a 1ply minmax would be a good combination of strong, and easy to do
2010-12-07T14:46:40  <burny> I'm honestly surprised though, that there wasn't a better top bot
2010-12-07T14:46:55  <mega1> bhasker: you have three options: a) don't generate crappy moves b) generate counters for them c) make the evaluation function score them right
2010-12-07T14:47:07  <burny> since the problem was so highly efficient to minmax(relative to the competition)
2010-12-07T14:47:11  <bhasker> yea i am working on b)
2010-12-07T14:47:21  <lavalamp> I think a) is best
2010-12-07T14:47:22  <bhasker> and will later work on a)
2010-12-07T14:47:25  <mega1> I'd start with c) :-)
2010-12-07T14:47:42  <bhasker> well my evaluation function just scores the end state for now
2010-12-07T14:47:45  <mega1> I take that back, in practice I did a) first
2010-12-07T14:47:54  <burny> I went with C also
2010-12-07T14:47:54  <bhasker> yea i will get to a) next
2010-12-07T14:48:08  <lavalamp> actually I think I was trying to detect crappy moves by doing c) now that I think about it
2010-12-07T14:48:33  <burny> in the end my bot had 2 critical flaws(which were basicalyl the same thing), and 1 minor-ish flaw
2010-12-07T14:48:49  <lavalamp> My bot had the critical flaw of being unfinished :/
2010-12-07T14:49:09  <burny> critical: it would not send support troops to defend newly acquired planets.  and it would not send troops to the front lines for defense/attacks
2010-12-07T14:49:36  <burny> minor: it would not attack(or defend) a planet, which it could not permanently keep
2010-12-07T14:51:26  <lavalamp> I had many of the same ideas that are in mega1's write up but had them too late in the process and didn't have time to implement them correctly :(
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2010-12-07T15:05:47  <burny> it's nice to see though, that so many of the top 100-500, worked hard for it
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2010-12-07T15:06:04  <burny> that no one just.. downloaded something, changed 3 numbers, and placed 50th, or something
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2010-12-07T19:11:29  <antimatroid> iamluck: my bot has the code there for minimax, but the submitted tree was really really broken
2010-12-07T19:12:08  <antimatroid> and like what mega1 said, it's going to favour moves that they don't get to "respond to", which was even worse when I was picking strings of moves and not just the move at the root node
2010-12-07T19:12:42  <antimatroid> i countered that by having them respond to each of my moves immediately as though they had perfect knowledge of what i was going to do
2010-12-07T19:14:44  <antimatroid> bhasker: I didn't consider making an expansionary move unless it wasn't snipable when i made it
2010-12-07T19:15:09  <bhasker> ah k
2010-12-07T19:15:14  <antimatroid> of course that still left the chance that the second mvoe i make made the first move snipable, but that is fixed by them getting to respond
2010-12-07T19:15:20  <bhasker> i am still getting the basic alpha beta + negamax to work
2010-12-07T19:15:31  <bhasker> my negamax code is not doing something right wth alpha beta
2010-12-07T19:15:36  <antimatroid> are you picking one destination planet per node?
2010-12-07T19:15:45  <bhasker> right now i have kept it very stupid
2010-12-07T19:15:49  <bhasker> one source 1 destination
2010-12-07T19:15:56  <bhasker> just to make sure that i can get the basic framework right
2010-12-07T19:16:07  <bhasker> then i will add in multiple sources to single destination
2010-12-07T19:16:11  <antimatroid> imo that sucked, you either neither to string moves together at each node or be very picky about where to expand your tree so you can generate more moves per turn
2010-12-07T19:16:12  <bhasker> and then later add combinations
2010-12-07T19:16:34  <bhasker> right now i am just trying to get the basic code working
2010-12-07T19:16:44  <antimatroid> okay, sure
2010-12-07T19:16:47  <bhasker> its printing out weird stuff so i am trying to understand what i am doing wrong
2010-12-07T19:17:11  <antimatroid> what's the main difference between minimax and negamax?
2010-12-07T19:17:23  <antimatroid> i wanted to try and work out some kind of minimax regret thing, but bleh
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2010-12-07T19:18:49  <antimatroid> what an idiot reporter
2010-12-07T19:18:49  <antimatroid> "IN 1958 ..." "Nearly a century later"
2010-12-07T19:18:54  <antimatroid> that's not even close to a century
2010-12-07T19:19:35  <burny> my goal was to do basically the same thing as mega1 did.. thinking that would get me between rank 10-100
2010-12-07T19:19:57  <bhasker> negamax is just simpler to implement
2010-12-07T19:20:10  <bhasker> it relies on the zero sum property
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2010-12-07T19:20:28  <antimatroid> i think something like my approach could be a lot better if ironed out
2010-12-07T19:20:43  <bhasker> the fact the  best move for you should be the -negation of the score for the enemy
2010-12-07T19:20:46  <antimatroid> without huge amounts of pruning though, my idea sucks
2010-12-07T19:21:34  <bhasker> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negamax
2010-12-07T19:21:56  <sigh> frankly, I don't think negamax deserves it's own name :P
2010-12-07T19:22:00  <bhasker> that shows a nega max implementation with alpha beta
2010-12-07T19:22:15  <bhasker> well its just a simpler way to implement minmax
2010-12-07T19:22:53  <sigh> yes, it makes one simplifying assumption
2010-12-07T19:23:25  <sigh> which is usually relevant for most games people apply minimax to
2010-12-07T19:24:08  <antimatroid> oh, yeah, i agree with sigh, it's the same thing
2010-12-07T19:25:04  <antimatroid> bhasker: like i've said previously (and got confirmed by janzert) using alpha-beta on a non-fully expanded tree and then expanding further can crop out good moves
2010-12-07T19:25:41  <sigh> did any of your try negascout?
2010-12-07T19:25:54  <bhasker> hmm oh well let me give it a shot and see how far i can get this implementation
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2010-12-07T19:25:55  <bhasker> to work
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2010-12-07T19:26:33  <sigh> negascout might be worth it for this where most of the work is in the heuristics anyway, so you have a good idea of what the best move is
2010-12-07T19:26:55  <bhasker> true it requires move ordering right
2010-12-07T19:27:42  <sigh> the point is, the move selection is so dependant on heuristics, that you most likely have a good idea of what a good move ordering is
2010-12-07T19:27:47  <bhasker> true
2010-12-07T19:28:06  <bhasker> hmm weirdly my negamax function always returns INF as the score for most moves:-\
2010-12-07T19:28:10  <bhasker> something is wrong
2010-12-07T19:28:11  <bhasker> hmm
2010-12-07T19:28:28  <sigh> does your eval function return INFs?
2010-12-07T19:28:38  <bhasker> yes
2010-12-07T19:28:42  <bhasker> but its not returning INFs
2010-12-07T19:28:52  <bhasker> i am printing out the scores for eval functions
2010-12-07T19:28:56  <bhasker> and the negamax functions
2010-12-07T19:29:22  <bhasker> hmm i think i know why
2010-12-07T19:29:26  <antimatroid> i ordered moves in my tree
2010-12-07T19:29:26  <sigh> :)
2010-12-07T19:29:30  <bhasker> if at a particulare node i don't generate moves
2010-12-07T19:29:34  <bhasker> the i return alpha
2010-12-07T19:29:35  <sigh> antimatroid: did you try negascout?
2010-12-07T19:29:40  <bhasker> which might be INF
2010-12-07T19:29:41  <antimatroid> i just threw them in a priority queue when making them before adding them to my tree
2010-12-07T19:29:49  <antimatroid> no just looking that up now
2010-12-07T19:29:50  <sigh> bhasker: haha
2010-12-07T19:30:01  <bhasker> have to verify that ^
2010-12-07T19:30:20  <bhasker> good point though if there are no moves generated
2010-12-07T19:30:23  <bhasker> what should negamax return?
2010-12-07T19:30:27  * antimatroid has never actually implemented alpha-beta
2010-12-07T19:30:42  <bhasker> the current state eval?
2010-12-07T19:30:44  <antimatroid> i don't trust it when creating my tree, and the tree was pretty much free to evaluate
2010-12-07T19:30:47  <sigh> bhasker: minimax is not designed to handle that
2010-12-07T19:30:55  <sigh> that would signal the end of the game
2010-12-07T19:31:08  <antimatroid> i ALWAYS add the move "do nothing" for each player
2010-12-07T19:31:26  <antimatroid> and if it's player 1's decision node and both recent moves were nothing, that's a terminal node
2010-12-07T19:31:29  <sigh> ah, yes the do nothing move
2010-12-07T19:31:38  <bhasker> ah k
2010-12-07T19:31:53  <sigh> yes, this is what you should do
2010-12-07T19:32:06  <antimatroid> it's pretty cheap to add them, as you don't need to do anything to the state other than copy it through
2010-12-07T19:32:20  <sigh> for minimax, no future state at all makes no sense unless it is a terminal node
2010-12-07T19:32:45  <antimatroid> i never incremented any states in my tree
2010-12-07T19:33:06  <antimatroid> i was happy to send any fleet at any time provided it ended before currentTurn + maxDistance
2010-12-07T19:33:06  <sigh> increment?
2010-12-07T19:33:29  <antimatroid> well, say it's now turn 3, you might want to make moves, increment to turn 4, then keep them playing
2010-12-07T19:33:39  <antimatroid> like you would with tron, but for this i didn't see the point
2010-12-07T19:33:53  <bhasker> ah k
2010-12-07T19:33:55  <sigh> yeah, makes sense... you've transformed the problem into a slightly different game
2010-12-07T19:34:04  <antimatroid> it means that i assumed they would perfectly respond to a move they could only block my moving now, but i'm cool with that
2010-12-07T19:34:27  <sigh> where the players take turns making moves at any time
2010-12-07T19:34:39  <antimatroid> yeah
2010-12-07T19:34:43  <antimatroid> but all inside this turn
2010-12-07T19:34:57  <sigh> all inside this turn?
2010-12-07T19:35:07  <bhasker> also i guess one has to compare the value of next move with current value
2010-12-07T19:35:09  <bhasker> instead of -INF
2010-12-07T19:35:18  <bhasker> since if it lowers the value its better not to make the move
2010-12-07T19:35:21  <sigh> bhasker: yes
2010-12-07T19:35:24  <antimatroid> well, at my 3rd layer, i can still send a fleet at the current time, in a tron tree, i'd be makinga move for 3 turns from now
2010-12-07T19:35:43  <sigh> bhasker: and you never compare with -INF anyway
2010-12-07T19:35:47  <antimatroid> so in tron, i would just pick my move from the first best node, but with this i needed to extract my string of best moves
2010-12-07T19:35:48  <sigh> initialise with alpha
2010-12-07T19:36:20  <bhasker> ah thats a left over from my first cut
2010-12-07T19:36:49  <antimatroid> i found it better to do something rather than nothing if my tree was tie broken
2010-12-07T19:37:38  <antimatroid> and i didn't even bother trying to draw out example trees for this to debug against (i did for tron), there was just tooooooooooooooo much information
2010-12-07T19:38:31  <antimatroid> negascout looks promising
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2010-12-07T19:39:10  <sigh> yeah, I wanted to try it, but I didn't even get minimax to be effective :P
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2010-12-07T20:39:14  <Prillicy> any word on when the next one starts?
2010-12-07T20:42:17  <amstan_> @topic Next Contest sometime in January
2010-12-07T20:42:17  <contestbot> amstan_: (topic [<channel>]) -- Returns the topic for <channel>. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent in the channel itself.
2010-12-07T20:42:22  <amstan_> @topic add Next Contest sometime in January
2010-12-07T20:42:22  *** contestbot changes topic to "Official Google AI Challenge: http://ai-contest.com/ || Channel Logs: http://contestbot.hypertriangle.com/ || Congratulations to bocsimacko for first place! || Next Contest sometime in January"
2010-12-07T20:43:03  <Prillicy> not very helpful at all
2010-12-07T20:43:05  <Prillicy> :(
2010-12-07T20:43:21  <amstan_> that's the most anyone knows
2010-12-07T20:43:23  <amstan_> including jeff
2010-12-07T20:43:42  <Prillicy> fair enough
2010-12-07T20:43:58  <Prillicy> I may take a deeper role in the next one, maybe even set up a tcp server
2010-12-07T20:43:59  <amstan_> maybe later though
2010-12-07T20:44:08  <amstan_> since we have to dev it
2010-12-07T20:44:19  <Prillicy> anything anyone can do to help?
2010-12-07T20:44:40  <amstan_> @topic replace s/sometime in January/late January
2010-12-07T20:44:40  <contestbot> amstan_: Error: 's/sometime' is not a valid topic number.
2010-12-07T20:44:54  <amstan_> Prillicy: yeah, hang around in here
2010-12-07T20:45:01  <Prillicy> hanging here doesn't help
2010-12-07T20:45:09  <Prillicy> it just wastes bandwidth
2010-12-07T20:45:23  <Prillicy> who built the previous tcp server, maybe I can learn about how they did it
2010-12-07T20:45:54  <Prillicy> if I set up a server based on the previous game, it shouldn't be too hard to set one up for the next game
2010-12-07T20:46:21  <amstan_> we might come up with a server package for the next one
2010-12-07T20:46:28  <amstan_> like... stuff might change
2010-12-07T20:47:21  <Prillicy> mind if I ask two further questions?
2010-12-07T20:47:27  <amstan_> k
2010-12-07T20:47:29  <antimatroid> Prillicy: i think tcp is pretty much taken care of
2010-12-07T20:47:58  <Prillicy> I never succeeded in connecting to it, so no, not user friendly enough :P
2010-12-07T20:47:58  <antimatroid> amstan_: what i want to set up is a training ground, with the old games still running for people to upload bots
2010-12-07T20:48:15  <amstan_> hmm?
2010-12-07T20:48:31  <Prillicy> I'll ask when he's doone
2010-12-07T20:48:42  <Prillicy> no need to overload you
2010-12-07T20:48:51  <antimatroid> i think bots should have a max cap on the number of games, so it's not just running old bots always, but people can upload new bots and have it play enough games to sort of give them an idea of elo
2010-12-07T20:49:07  <amstan_> i'm bored here.. my internets are getting capped so i can't watch the stuff i wanted to
2010-12-07T20:49:09  <amstan_> so.. i
2010-12-07T20:49:09  <antimatroid> Prillicy: sorry for butting in, I'm really good at that :)
2010-12-07T20:49:12  <amstan_> i'm not overloaded
2010-12-07T20:49:47  <Prillicy> well, first question: since it's a club thing, you guys aren't getting college credit for this are ya?
2010-12-07T20:49:54  <amstan_> no
2010-12-07T20:49:59  <amstan_> we aren't
2010-12-07T20:50:04  <Prillicy> cool
2010-12-07T20:50:50  <Prillicy> second question: if there's no college credit why backpedal when people offer to help? (don't get me wrong, I want to be in the next competition, so you can count me out of helping, but still the question stands)
2010-12-07T20:51:11  <amstan_> backpedal?
2010-12-07T20:51:32  <Prillicy> Prillicy>	anything anyone can do to help?
2010-12-07T20:51:34  <Prillicy> 	<amstan_>	@topic replace s/sometime in January/late January
2010-12-07T20:51:35  <Prillicy> 	<contestbot>	amstan_: Error: 's/sometime' is not a valid topic number.
2010-12-07T20:51:37  <Prillicy> 	<amstan_>	Prillicy: yeah, hang around in here
2010-12-07T20:52:04  <antimatroid> Prillicy: they aren't sure when the contest is going to be, they can't give an answer when there isn't one :s
2010-12-07T20:52:16  <amstan_> first 2 lines describe me trying to be more specific.. and failing
2010-12-07T20:52:25  <amstan_> last line.... idk what's wrong with that
2010-12-07T20:52:42  <Prillicy> I don't care about the time
2010-12-07T20:52:42  <antimatroid> and they have been extremely open to getting help as far as i've seen
2010-12-07T20:52:48  <Prillicy> just wanted to know what's needed to help you all
2010-12-07T20:52:57  <amstan_> we have no idea yet, lol
2010-12-07T20:53:06  <antimatroid> i think it's more, find something you want done, get an idea that people want it, then go and do it
2010-12-07T20:53:10  <Prillicy> since I can't do anything program-wise, maybe I could send you guys equipment
2010-12-07T20:53:19  <Prillicy> or software or something
2010-12-07T20:53:35  <amstan_> software, we mostly do open source
2010-12-07T20:53:54  <Prillicy> then it's likely you are due for a hardware upgrade
2010-12-07T20:53:56  <amstan_> equipment, so far we have used cloud stuff
2010-12-07T20:54:03  <amstan_> like vps and so on
2010-12-07T20:54:08  <Prillicy> ah
2010-12-07T20:54:31  <Prillicy> you are even awkward to buy for
2010-12-07T20:55:13  <amstan_> so, i have exams this month
2010-12-07T20:55:14  <Prillicy> I suppose I should have expected as much
2010-12-07T20:55:21  <Prillicy> after all the hackers in my dorms
2010-12-07T20:55:32  <amstan_> i'll be available after new years
2010-12-07T20:55:37  <Prillicy> exams? I'd take them for you if I thought it'd help the competition ;)
2010-12-07T20:55:41  <amstan_> then i'll get together with jeff and code stuff
2010-12-07T20:55:56  <amstan_> we're due for a rewrite
2010-12-07T20:55:57  <Prillicy> good luck to you, and enjoy your holidays
2010-12-07T20:56:15  <amstan_> anyway. so... early jan is the time to come with such suggestions
2010-12-07T20:56:22  <Prillicy> can do
2010-12-07T20:56:23  <amstan_> till then, you can suggest game ideas on the forums
2010-12-07T20:56:33  <Prillicy> first suggestion: TRON OS
2010-12-07T20:56:50  <Prillicy> ;)
2010-12-07T20:57:07  <amstan_> ideally something that we haven't done before
2010-12-07T20:57:07  <amstan_> should be something exciting
2010-12-07T20:57:08  <amstan_> i like the ants idea
2010-12-07T20:57:17  <Prillicy> lemmings ftw
2010-12-07T20:57:33  <antimatroid> lemmings is a decision problem
2010-12-07T20:57:41  <antimatroid> it isn't a game in the formal sense
2010-12-07T20:57:44  <Prillicy> it could be competitive
2010-12-07T20:57:54  <Prillicy> blow up a lemming near your enemy's bridge
2010-12-07T20:57:56  <Prillicy> or something
2010-12-07T20:58:06  <Prillicy> meh, I"m getting too complex
2010-12-07T20:58:08  <Prillicy> sorry
2010-12-07T20:58:15  <antimatroid> i would be quite surprised if the ant idea doesn't get used
2010-12-07T20:58:20  <Prillicy> what were the past competition
2010-12-07T20:58:22  <Prillicy> s
2010-12-07T20:58:24  <amstan_> yeah, an rts is due
2010-12-07T20:58:29  <Prillicy> I know tron and galcon
2010-12-07T20:58:30  <Prillicy> but that's it
2010-12-07T20:58:40  <antimatroid> before that was minesweeper flags and rock paper scissors?
2010-12-07T20:58:57  <Prillicy> hmm
2010-12-07T20:59:04  <antimatroid> although tron and planet wars were the first two to be open to everyone i think
2010-12-07T20:59:16  <amstan_> antimatroid: they were all open
2010-12-07T20:59:23  <amstan_> they just weren't advertised
2010-12-07T20:59:25  <antimatroid> tron was too easy, planet wars was good, but ended up being too heuristicy at the top if you ask me
2010-12-07T20:59:26  <Prillicy> I don't know ants, but it sounds unsual
2010-12-07T20:59:49  <Prillicy> isn't that te intent antimatroid?
2010-12-07T20:59:55  <Prillicy> *the intent
2010-12-07T21:00:26  <antimatroid> i want something where i can try outlandish maths ideas
2010-12-07T21:00:47  <Prillicy> vectors seems like a great chance for outlandish math
2010-12-07T21:00:56  <Prillicy> and galcon was full of vectors
2010-12-07T21:01:03  <antimatroid> not really what i mean
2010-12-07T21:01:06  <Prillicy> oh
2010-12-07T21:01:20  <Prillicy> well then aparently I'm out of the loop and thus sounding like a moron
2010-12-07T21:01:36  <antimatroid> not sounding like a moron, that's my specialty
2010-12-07T21:01:52  <antimatroid> like i was hoping to work out how to use linear programming for move selection in galcon
2010-12-07T21:02:11  <Prillicy> anyhow, can I put myself on the "if there's anything you need" list? like an email list or summat?
2010-12-07T21:02:17  <antimatroid> and maybe even use it with a constructed zero sum simutlaneous game to generate mixed strategy Nash equilibrium when no pure strategy ones existed etc.
2010-12-07T21:02:22  <sigh> antimatroid: your speciality is outlandish math ideas, or sounding like a moron?
2010-12-07T21:02:25  <amstan_> Prillicy: what can you help with though?
2010-12-07T21:02:34  <antimatroid> sigh: sounding like a moron :)
2010-12-07T21:02:39  <sigh> :P
2010-12-07T21:02:51  <Prillicy> unlike college kids, I have a job and money
2010-12-07T21:03:06  <Prillicy> sometimes open source is good
2010-12-07T21:03:08  <Prillicy> and sometimes it's crap
2010-12-07T21:03:09  <antimatroid> ouch, i have like $5 in the bank :P
2010-12-07T21:03:11  <amstan_> i am sure there's others that are in the same situation
2010-12-07T21:03:22  <Prillicy> I did say list
2010-12-07T21:03:24  <amstan_> like jeff, he happly works at a bank
2010-12-07T21:03:24  <Prillicy> not just me
2010-12-07T21:03:52  <Prillicy> I make about 40k a year
2010-12-07T21:04:08  <Prillicy> and I don't have anyone to spend it on
2010-12-07T21:04:18  <amstan_> still, you kinda have to come to us at the right time
2010-12-07T21:04:23  <Prillicy> thus email list
2010-12-07T21:04:26  <Prillicy> just a suggestion
2010-12-07T21:04:30  <antimatroid> email list was moved to forums
2010-12-07T21:04:34  <antimatroid> so people could see what's going on
2010-12-07T21:04:39  <amstan_> yeah, email list is now the behind the scenes
2010-12-07T21:04:47  <amstan_> but you can post in suggestions too
2010-12-07T21:04:54  <Prillicy> I don't have time to check in here or on the forums all the time
2010-12-07T21:05:19  <Prillicy> a simple "here's what's happening with Google AI challenge" would be a neat email list
2010-12-07T21:05:39  <amstan_> but that's what everyone else is doing, not adhering to that might get you ignored
2010-12-07T21:05:42  <Prillicy> "currently working on this new problem, looking for this software or x$ in donations" or "new competition upcoming on X date"
2010-12-07T21:05:45  <amstan_> there are email notifications you can do
2010-12-07T21:06:10  <amstan_> from the forums
2010-12-07T21:06:20  <Prillicy> so you're suggesting email notification anytime something is posted in the announcements section of the forums?
2010-12-07T21:06:26  <amstan_> yes
2010-12-07T21:06:39  <amstan_> behind the scenes is a better place though
2010-12-07T21:06:52  <amstan_> that's where we'll do the deving
2010-12-07T21:07:09  <Prillicy> fine, how do I do that?
2010-12-07T21:07:24  <amstan_> it's at the bottom of the forum
2010-12-07T21:07:34  <amstan_> a link titled "subscribe"
2010-12-07T21:08:01  <Prillicy> done
2010-12-07T21:08:10  <Prillicy> I will accept this as your way of avoiding spam emails
2010-12-07T21:08:13  <Prillicy> so....thanks
2010-12-07T21:12:10  <Prillicy> no chance of a prettier email with a more professional look?
2010-12-07T21:12:30  <amstan_> define professional
2010-12-07T21:12:51  <Prillicy> company logo at the top, signature of higher ups at the bottom
2010-12-07T21:13:14  <Prillicy> usually goes through branding department before it's sent out
2010-12-07T21:13:16  <Prillicy> ;)
2010-12-07T21:13:26  <amstan_> there's no company, we don't have a logo, signature? doesn't it say the admins?
2010-12-07T21:13:57  <sigh> put the "all your space" pic as your logo
2010-12-07T21:14:04  <amstan_> sigh: but that changes..
2010-12-07T21:14:13  <Prillicy> so you need a company logo then?
2010-12-07T21:14:23  <amstan_> idk, it seems like a good balance right now
2010-12-07T21:14:28  <amstan_> Prillicy: we don't have a company though
2010-12-07T21:14:39  <Prillicy> fine, club logo
2010-12-07T21:14:45  <Prillicy> make you happy if I term it differently?
2010-12-07T21:14:57  <Prillicy> a club is just a non-profit company
2010-12-07T21:14:59  <amstan_> we're technically not run by the club
2010-12-07T21:15:07  <amstan_> idk why jeff keeps saying that
2010-12-07T21:15:08  <Prillicy> um....
2010-12-07T21:15:14  <sigh> Prillicy: it's not really that important
2010-12-07T21:15:28  <Prillicy> so you're just two guys with a lot of freetime and google's blessing
2010-12-07T21:15:33  <amstan_> yep
2010-12-07T21:15:35  <amstan_> well
2010-12-07T21:15:40  <Prillicy> sigh: it would better organize my inbox
2010-12-07T21:15:45  <amstan_> me, janzert, jeff, and a few others
2010-12-07T21:16:02  <sigh> Prillicy: how does a logo help organise your inbox?
2010-12-07T21:16:10  <amstan_> the contests before this one were hosted by the csclub
2010-12-07T21:16:24  <amstan_> and i got to know the contest through csclub
2010-12-07T21:16:25  <Prillicy> 1 email a week or month or less is a lot more organized that 30+ a day
2010-12-07T21:16:41  <amstan_> Prillicy: folders.. or tags..
2010-12-07T21:16:47  <Prillicy> you're missing the point
2010-12-07T21:16:58  <Prillicy> it'd be much more relevant to get an email when something important happens
2010-12-07T21:17:07  <Prillicy> than every time anyone posts anything
2010-12-07T21:17:17  <amstan_> that's how the mailing list was before
2010-12-07T21:17:30  <Prillicy> you're thinking newsgroup type list
2010-12-07T21:17:32  <amstan_> look.. if you want to get important announcements, subscribe to announcements
2010-12-07T21:17:37  <amstan_> only admins will post in there
2010-12-07T21:17:44  <Prillicy> I'm thinking "give us your email we'll send you important information"
2010-12-07T21:17:47  <amstan_> behind the scenes will be a newsgroup type list
2010-12-07T21:17:57  <amstan_> information can be anything..
2010-12-07T21:18:02  <amstan_> you have to make up your mind
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2010-12-07T21:18:06  <amstan_> define important information
2010-12-07T21:18:44  <Prillicy> competition dates, donation needs, needs for a first born, whatever
2010-12-07T21:19:03  <amstan_> dates are in announcements
2010-12-07T21:19:12  <amstan_> donation needs, i don't think we'll ever ask
2010-12-07T21:19:22  <Prillicy> but you should
2010-12-07T21:19:29  <amstan_> yeah, we have to get organized first
2010-12-07T21:19:34  <Prillicy> fair enough
2010-12-07T21:19:36  <amstan_> i have to slap jeff a few times
2010-12-07T21:19:37  <amstan_> lol
2010-12-07T21:19:41  <Prillicy> so you have organizational neeeds?
2010-12-07T21:19:42  *** amstan_ is now known as amstan
2010-12-07T21:19:45  <Prillicy> ;)
2010-12-07T21:20:30  <amstan> yeah, that's one area we could have improvements
2010-12-07T21:20:39  <Prillicy> pie charts, yes and flow charts, we'll send you lots of flow-charts about pie....or...well....
2010-12-07T21:20:42  <amstan> but idk how outside volunteers could help
2010-12-07T21:20:49  <amstan> lol
2010-12-07T21:20:52  <Prillicy> t-shirts!
2010-12-07T21:21:01  <amstan> and pie graphs about the usage of flow charts?
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2010-12-07T21:21:28  <Prillicy> "I work at the google AI competition where we're working to develop living AI" on the front and "If you see me running, it's already too late" on the back
2010-12-07T21:21:45  <amstan> lol
2010-12-07T21:21:49  <amstan> that would be cool actually
2010-12-07T21:21:57  <Prillicy> see, I told you we could help
2010-12-07T21:21:58  <amstan> post it in suggestions, we should really get tshirts
2010-12-07T21:22:08  <Prillicy> I am not going to
2010-12-07T21:22:13  <amstan> :(
2010-12-07T21:22:15  <amstan> but..
2010-12-07T21:22:17  <Prillicy> you post it
2010-12-07T21:22:19  <amstan> that's the place for suggestions
2010-12-07T21:22:21  <Prillicy> and link to the log of this convo
2010-12-07T21:22:29  <amstan> nobody wants to read logs
2010-12-07T21:22:36  <antimatroid> shirts for the top x
2010-12-07T21:22:39  <antimatroid> i really like that
2010-12-07T21:22:42  <sigh> "Lisp is the best language for AI"
2010-12-07T21:22:46  <Prillicy> then they'll have to take your word for it that everyone on IRC is for it
2010-12-07T21:22:49  <amstan> people want clearly organized information
2010-12-07T21:22:52  <antimatroid> sigh: I'd wear it :D
2010-12-07T21:22:54  <amstan> irc is for immediate communication
2010-12-07T21:22:56  <sigh> :P
2010-12-07T21:23:24  <amstan> see http://strlen.com/ultimate-collaboration-tool
2010-12-07T21:23:39  <amstan> each place is for its own stuff
2010-12-07T21:24:13  <Prillicy> fine, now you will actually know which bot I represent, I hate you for making me post
2010-12-07T21:24:29  <sigh> o_O
2010-12-07T21:24:36  <antimatroid> Prillicy: you could create another forum username :\
2010-12-07T21:24:39  <amstan> hold on..
2010-12-07T21:24:47  <amstan> i can get you your username in a sec
2010-12-07T21:24:48  <amstan> lol
2010-12-07T21:24:49  <antimatroid> why care about anonymity so much though?
2010-12-07T21:25:03  <Prillicy> because I placed lower than 1900th
2010-12-07T21:25:33  <antimatroid> that doesn't tell us anything other than you suck or you didn't put effort in
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2010-12-07T21:25:40  <antimatroid> and most people tend to think the later
2010-12-07T21:25:55  <Prillicy> probably a littlle of both
2010-12-07T21:26:11  <amstan> still not relevant to anything
2010-12-07T21:26:13  <antimatroid> i don't think it's very hard to get top 100 in this
2010-12-07T21:26:18  <Prillicy> still, the whole world doesn't have to know
2010-12-07T21:26:22  <antimatroid> so i tend to put everyone in the class of didn't try or just needs to learn more
2010-12-07T21:26:32  <amstan> Prillicy: they have no idea who you are anyway
2010-12-07T21:26:40  <antimatroid> amstan: beat me to it :P
2010-12-07T21:26:52  <Prillicy> I still hate you
2010-12-07T21:27:16  <amstan> the point is.. if you have an idea, post it, don't make me do it
2010-12-07T21:28:07  <sigh> now I'm tempted to guess who Prillicy is
2010-12-07T21:28:15  <amstan> sigh: beat me to it
2010-12-07T21:28:37  <Prillicy> guess before I post?
2010-12-07T21:28:41  <sigh> amstan, eay for you... you can match against IP :P
2010-12-07T21:28:48  <amstan> sigh: no match yet
2010-12-07T21:28:56  <sigh> well, he used c#
2010-12-07T21:28:59  <sigh> started early nov
2010-12-07T21:29:20  <amstan> if it's not datwinnkdaddy
2010-12-07T21:29:26  <amstan> he's suicidoit
2010-12-07T21:29:51  <sigh> guessing he's from us florida
2010-12-07T21:29:54  <Prillicy> damn impressive
2010-12-07T21:29:59  <antimatroid> datwinkdaddy?
2010-12-07T21:30:04  <antimatroid> you did wellish in tron didn't you?
2010-12-07T21:30:08  <antimatroid> it's a name i know
2010-12-07T21:30:16  <Prillicy> I'm not datwinkdaddy
2010-12-07T21:30:33  <amstan> Prillicy: http://ai-contest.com/forum/viewonline.php
2010-12-07T21:30:39  <Prillicy> so how did you figure it out? based on IP andd posts from that location?
2010-12-07T21:30:41  <amstan> only one possibility
2010-12-07T21:30:49  <antimatroid> http://www.ai-contest.com/profile.php?user_id=10916
2010-12-07T21:30:50  <antimatroid> there we go
2010-12-07T21:30:51  <Prillicy> lazy
2010-12-07T21:31:11  <Prillicy> and the c# thing?
2010-12-07T21:31:14  <antimatroid> http://www.ai-contest.com/visualizer.php?game_id=9425675
2010-12-07T21:31:14  <Prillicy> from teh irc logs?
2010-12-07T21:31:17  <antimatroid> i  like oletorr
2010-12-07T21:31:31  <sigh> Prillicy: yes
2010-12-07T21:31:43  <sigh> and your first comment on irc was form 6th nov
2010-12-07T21:31:51  <antimatroid> oletorr's bot is cool to watch, i wish it was better
2010-12-07T21:32:04  <sigh> florida us was geo ip
2010-12-07T21:32:19  <sigh> didn't think to check logged in users... I'll keep that one in mind :)
2010-12-07T21:32:38  <amstan> his 99-99-22-99.lightspeed.dybhfl.sbcglobal.net ip was not resolving through geoiptool
2010-12-07T21:32:40  <amstan> so i couldn't tell
2010-12-07T21:33:32  <sigh> huh? whois tells me he is ~chatzilla@97.104.19.221
2010-12-07T21:33:43  <Prillicy> chatzilla ftw
2010-12-07T21:33:57  <amstan> sigh: if they were in the same geographical location it would have been likely it was him
2010-12-07T21:34:26  <sigh> oh, right... yes
2010-12-07T21:34:43  <amstan> i do this all the time in sauerbraten, hunting cheaters
2010-12-07T21:34:50  <amstan> it's quite fun
2010-12-07T21:34:52  <sigh> :)
2010-12-07T21:35:34  <Prillicy> sauerbraten
2010-12-07T21:35:35  <Prillicy> ?
2010-12-07T21:35:43  <amstan> http://sauerbraten.org/
2010-12-07T21:36:09  <sigh> wow... Prillicy has been very careful not to mention "suicidoit" in the channel :P
2010-12-07T21:36:18  <sigh> just grepped the logs
2010-12-07T21:36:25  <sigh> not one mention
2010-12-07T21:36:27  <amstan> sigh: did you download them?
2010-12-07T21:36:33  <sigh> yes
2010-12-07T21:36:50  <amstan> i keep wondering.. how do ppl grep those logs? only i can do that!
2010-12-07T21:36:54  <Prillicy> told you I don't want people to know
2010-12-07T21:37:00  <Prillicy> and grep is gay
2010-12-07T21:37:00  <amstan> then i realized that they wget
2010-12-07T21:37:07  <Prillicy> TRON OS
2010-12-07T21:37:13  <antimatroid> Prillicy: your secret is out now, so you don't have to worry anymore :P
2010-12-07T21:37:18  <Prillicy> ﾊｼﾁﾉﾘﾏｼﾊﾄﾘﾉﾁ
2010-12-07T21:37:31  <sigh> amstan: haha
2010-12-07T21:37:32  <amstan> @topic addd Prillicy is suicidoit!
2010-12-07T21:37:32  <contestbot> amstan: (topic [<channel>]) -- Returns the topic for <channel>. <channel> is only necessary if the message isn't sent in the channel itself.
2010-12-07T21:37:41  <Prillicy> :P
2010-12-07T21:39:11  <sigh> amstan: even without official channel logs, people can still have comprehensive local logs if they are online all the time
2010-12-07T21:39:25  <amstan> no man.. only i can grep logs! :P
2010-12-07T21:39:35  <sigh> :P
2010-12-07T21:40:05  <amstan> though, the official channel logs have very few holes
2010-12-07T21:40:09  <amstan> @uptime
2010-12-07T21:40:09  <contestbot> amstan: I have been running for 7 weeks, 1 day, 6 hours, 29 minutes, and 50 seconds.
2010-12-07T21:40:35  <amstan> there was one hole of a few hours, 7 weeks ago
2010-12-07T21:40:47  <amstan> and before then it's been running since contestbot was created
2010-12-07T21:41:10  <sigh> yeah, it's been quite useful for me
2010-12-07T21:41:18  <sigh> easy to find info I remember hearing before
2010-12-07T21:41:35  <amstan> i do like this one the most though: http://contestbot.hypertriangle.com/channellogs/%23aichallenge/%23aichallenge.2010-04-planning.log
2010-12-07T21:42:13  <sigh> what is that one?
2010-12-07T21:42:21  <amstan> when this channel was made
2010-12-07T21:42:25  <amstan> in april
2010-12-07T21:42:59  <Prillicy> I'm going to bed.  thanks for your help
2010-12-07T21:43:01  <Prillicy> quit
2010-12-07T21:43:07  <sigh> i see
2010-12-07T21:43:08  <amstan> Prillicy: cya
2010-12-07T21:43:08  * Prillicy sighs.
2010-12-07T21:43:08  *** Prillicy <Prillicy!~chatzilla@97.104.19.221> has quit IRC (Quit: I be bangin')
2010-12-07T21:43:09  <sigh> cya Prillicy
2010-12-07T21:43:18  <amstan> Fightr!!
2010-12-07T21:43:22  <amstan> that's a fun name
2010-12-07T21:48:00  * antimatroid is having fun reading the "beginning" logs
2010-12-07T21:49:23  <amstan> yeah
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2010-12-07T21:54:38  <antimatroid> poker would be cool
2010-12-07T21:54:52  <antimatroid> i'd very much be down for that
2010-12-07T21:55:16  <sigh> problem is that there are already a lot of poker bots
2010-12-07T21:55:38  <burny> also(primarily) poker is already highly studied
2010-12-07T21:56:07  <sigh> yeah
2010-12-07T21:56:21  <burny> at heart tohugh.. it's basically RPS
2010-12-07T21:56:30  <antimatroid> yeah but a lot of ai bots end up similar to those for other games
2010-12-07T21:56:33  <burny> or,a micture between RPS and chicken
2010-12-07T21:56:37  <antimatroid> people just need to do a bit of tweaking and they're there
2010-12-07T21:56:57  <antimatroid> yeah, and at it's heart, chess is trivial
2010-12-07T21:57:20  <burny> chess has more than 3 choices
2010-12-07T21:57:39  <antimatroid> so does poker
2010-12-07T21:57:42  <burny> not to mention.. combinations of choices
2010-12-07T21:57:48  <sigh> poker has lots of choices
2010-12-07T21:57:52  <antimatroid> if you count betting amounts
2010-12-07T21:58:01  <antimatroid> etc. etc.
2010-12-07T21:58:10  <burny> raise, fold, call
2010-12-07T21:58:58  <antimatroid> is there a site where one can legally use a bot with actual money bets?
2010-12-07T21:59:51  <burny> doubt it.. I don't know of any poker sites that arne't 'fixed'
2010-12-07T21:59:52  <antimatroid> ideally it'd need to be a site where you upload your bots code to be run, otherwise you can't stop collections of bots communicating outside the program
2010-12-07T22:00:56  <sigh> I wouldn't trust a poker site with my bot
2010-12-07T22:02:48  <burny> just send me a piec eof code, and a cheque..
2010-12-07T22:02:56  <burny> and I'll send you some numbers, explaining how you lost
2010-12-07T22:03:02  <antimatroid> hehe
2010-12-07T22:03:30  <sigh> free numbers!
2010-12-07T22:04:58  <antimatroid> i for one am against number abuse!
2010-12-07T22:06:18  <sigh> me two!
2010-12-07T22:10:05  <antimatroid> sigh: did you see the australian article from assange?
2010-12-07T22:10:17  <sigh> yeah, that was quite awesome
2010-12-07T22:10:33  <sigh> looking forward to seeing how this all goes down
2010-12-07T22:10:37  <antimatroid> i didn't expect aus government to back him, but i'm quite surprised they've said nothing about the violent comments coming from some people
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2010-12-07T22:13:10  <sigh> antimatroid: you saw the open letter to gillard too, yeah?
2010-12-07T22:14:07  <antimatroid> of course
2010-12-07T22:14:14  <antimatroid> i've been watching this quite closely
2010-12-07T22:14:19  <sigh> :)
2010-12-07T22:14:44  <antimatroid> i only found out who that lamo kid is like a week ago
2010-12-07T22:14:50  <antimatroid> i'd really like to punch him in the face
2010-12-07T22:15:00  <antimatroid> and i'm a big fan of violence
2010-12-07T22:15:01  <sigh> who?
2010-12-07T22:15:18  <antimatroid> the guy who turned manning over to the feds for leaking stuff to wikileaks
2010-12-07T22:15:27  <sigh> ah :(
2010-12-07T22:15:30  <antimatroid> manning being the kid in the us that is now locked up
2010-12-07T22:15:43  <antimatroid> http://www.facebook.com/felon
2010-12-07T22:15:51  <antimatroid> that's "Lamo"
2010-12-07T22:22:14  <burny> I don't get it
2010-12-07T22:25:11  <antimatroid> get what?
2010-12-07T22:26:01  <Erika> its illegal to leak information. its not illegal for people to report on that infomration
2010-12-07T22:29:03  <antimatroid> yep, and while i can agree *some* government secracy is needed, they hide behind it too much and do completely hypocritical things to push their own agendas, there is a huge moral hazard in just blindly assuming they will just do what is *morally* right
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2010-12-07T22:29:55  <antimatroid> i think everything should be as transparent as feasibly possible, and the level of accountability in society today is pathetic
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2010-12-07T23:49:33  <antimatroid> i fully intend to sponsor a scholarship for young white males when i'm older
2010-12-07T23:49:39  <antimatroid> and just watch the hate roll in
2010-12-07T23:50:54  <sigh> only if they are rich
2010-12-07T23:51:06  <sigh> sorry, "upper middle class"
2010-12-07T23:51:15  <antimatroid> yeah, and straight and from a private school
2010-12-07T23:51:18  <antimatroid> maximise the hate
2010-12-07T23:51:35  <sigh> :P
2010-12-07T23:51:49  <antimatroid> there is not a single scholarship designated for my uni for honours maths
2010-12-07T23:51:56  <burny> make it even better.. capitalize on multiple markets of hate..
2010-12-07T23:52:03  <burny> make it be white male, non-jewish
2010-12-07T23:52:11  <antimatroid> there are plenty for females, indigenous people, arts, music, etc. etc.
2010-12-07T23:52:58  <antimatroid> the only thing i could apply for was one of like 4 general honours scholarships, and i don't think they're going to take into account the difficulty of maths over most other areas or the fact that I overloaded more than half of my semesters
2010-12-07T23:53:16  <antimatroid> in short, i hate my university, the only bearable thing is the maths department
2010-12-07T23:54:00  <burny> ya, I couldn't go to uni cause of same sort of thing
2010-12-07T23:54:18  <burny> only thing I could get, was bogus crap, and a 5k for physics
2010-12-07T23:54:34  <sigh> 5k?
2010-12-07T23:54:42  <burny> 5,000$
2010-12-07T23:54:48  <burny> K is slang
2010-12-07T23:55:02  <antimatroid> i don't think that was the question :P
2010-12-07T23:55:05  <antimatroid> otherwise, sigh wtf?
2010-12-07T23:55:18  <burny> ya.. I don't think so either :P
2010-12-07T23:55:24  <burny> but I have no clue what else it could be
2010-12-07T23:55:24  <sigh> what does "a 5k for physics" mean?
2010-12-07T23:55:30  <burny> oh..
2010-12-07T23:55:39  <burny> that I would have had to make my major be physics
2010-12-07T23:55:51  <sigh> oooh
2010-12-07T23:56:56  <antimatroid> i don't have the first clue about physics
2010-12-07T23:56:58  <burny> or, it mighta been as high as 8k, if the people above me declined
2010-12-07T23:57:05  <antimatroid> i didn't even do it in year 12
2010-12-07T23:57:38  <antimatroid> which is really annoying in mahts classes when any application is always a physics one
2010-12-07T23:57:42  <burny> I got like 7th on some physics contest..
2010-12-07T23:57:48  <sigh> :P
2010-12-07T23:57:50  <burny> but only like 15th on the math contest..
2010-12-07T23:57:58  <burny> which was good for like, 200$
2010-12-07T23:58:08  <antimatroid> i didn't even do the top maths in year 12
2010-12-07T23:58:18  <antimatroid> i wasn't motivated till i got to uni and it actually got interesting
2010-12-07T23:58:18  <sigh> specialist?
2010-12-07T23:58:24  <antimatroid> specialised, yeah
2010-12-07T23:58:27  <burny> oh boy.. 200$.. tha talmost pays for the time it takes to file more complicated tax returns.. and mail "thank you" letters, etc.
2010-12-07T23:58:27  <antimatroid> i did methods
2010-12-07T23:58:37  <sigh> haha, methods was easy as
2010-12-07T23:58:46  <antimatroid> yep
2010-12-07T23:59:01  <antimatroid> only picked maths up at uni in my second year, i did first year eco and was like, yeah this is pointless without maths
2010-12-07T23:59:20  <sigh> heh