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2010-12-10T01:03:57  <epona> antimatroid1
2010-12-10T01:04:00  <epona> you there?
2010-12-10T01:04:45  <epona> is anyone up
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2010-12-10T01:30:09  <antimatroid1> epona: hey
2010-12-10T01:30:17  <antimatroid1> of course i'm up, it's 5 30pm :)
2010-12-10T01:30:48  <epona> ahh
2010-12-10T01:31:17  <epona> someone brought up a problem in #ai, was wondering if you might be able to help them out a little
2010-12-10T01:31:41  <epona> it looks like a horribly dumbed down version of planetwars
2010-12-10T01:35:09  <epona> if your not up for it its whatever...
2010-12-10T01:35:16  <antimatroid1> what's the problem?
2010-12-10T01:35:38  <epona> http://compeng.hud.ac.uk/scomhro/Courses/CIS2344/Assignments/Assignment2010-2011-Formative/
2010-12-10T01:38:23  <epona> hey, withate
2010-12-10T01:39:08  * epona pokes withate
2010-12-10T01:39:15  * withate *shy*
2010-12-10T01:39:23  <antimatroid1> when they say the bots resources increaase by 20%, if they're currently at 50%, does that mean it becomes 60 or 70%?
2010-12-10T01:39:41  <withate> it means 70
2010-12-10T01:39:54  <antimatroid1> that specification is wrong
2010-12-10T01:40:23  <withate> why is it wrong?
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2010-12-10T01:40:58  <antimatroid1> "Ie. a visit to A or F will increase a bot's resources by 20%"
2010-12-10T01:41:09  <antimatroid1> it should say percentage points
2010-12-10T01:41:12  <antimatroid1> if i'm being pedantic
2010-12-10T01:42:02  <withate> later on it says (of the bot's maximum capacity)
2010-12-10T01:42:14  <withate> which is 100%, so i guess it makes sense, to some point
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2010-12-10T01:43:01  <antimatroid1> it makes sense if you ignore what it says :P
2010-12-10T01:43:23  <withate> fair enough, not going to argue ^_^
2010-12-10T01:43:31  <epona> this actually looks like a really interesting assignment
2010-12-10T01:43:55  <withate> and really stressfull as well :o not like looking for help on IRC is the best
2010-12-10T01:43:58  <withate> a student could do
2010-12-10T01:44:00  <withate> ;o
2010-12-10T01:45:13  <antimatroid1> yeah, i wish i got assignemnts this awesome
2010-12-10T01:45:36  <antimatroid1> i take it this is an algorithms assignemnt? not ai?
2010-12-10T01:47:29  <withate> yeh
2010-12-10T01:47:41  <withate> but it looks like AI to me
2010-12-10T01:48:13  <antimatroid1> hmmm, i think they want you do actually solve the maps, not sort of use ai techniques, but it's still a cool assignemnt
2010-12-10T01:48:27  <antimatroid1> if i was doing the quick one without requirements, i'd probably try dynamic programming
2010-12-10T01:48:46  <withate> well what ive got so far is
2010-12-10T01:48:53  <antimatroid1> track back from the end to teach node and work out how much you need when entering to be able to complete it and in how many steps
2010-12-10T01:48:55  <withate> depth-first traversal search exploring the
2010-12-10T01:48:56  <rabidus> any ongoing contests around?
2010-12-10T01:49:05  <withate> graph
2010-12-10T01:49:21  <antimatroid1> rabidus: a few actually, mit battlecode people seem most interested in, but it's java only
2010-12-10T01:49:36  <withate> the problem is, that youve only got entry node at the start
2010-12-10T01:49:38  <antimatroid1> arimaa is anohter, then there was some other sequential game, but i forget what it was called
2010-12-10T01:49:58  <withate> and in order to get to exit node (the goal)
2010-12-10T01:49:59  <epona> rabidus, not for ai challenge
2010-12-10T01:50:00  <antimatroid1> withate: you don't know where exit nodes are?
2010-12-10T01:50:04  <rabidus> is there a framework for arimaa ?
2010-12-10T01:50:10  <withate> no, i just know the entry node
2010-12-10T01:50:15  <antimatroid1> ahhh
2010-12-10T01:50:17  <withate> and the only way
2010-12-10T01:50:24  <withate> to "communicate" is to leave the messages
2010-12-10T01:50:27  <withate> at the nodes
2010-12-10T01:50:47  <antimatroid1> so basically you need to search out the entire graph and communicate that? then calculate the shortest path on that graph once you know it?
2010-12-10T01:50:48  <withate> thats kind of my problem right now, im not sure what should i be storing in there
2010-12-10T01:50:57  <withate> yeh, true
2010-12-10T01:51:03  <withate> shortest path should not be a problem i guess
2010-12-10T01:51:07  <withate> loads of algorithms for it
2010-12-10T01:51:14  <antimatroid1> i think it's slightly tricker
2010-12-10T01:51:36  <withate> and you only get access to adjacency list of the node
2010-12-10T01:51:36  <antimatroid1> because of the requirements that the overall cost is >0 at all times
2010-12-10T01:51:46  <withate> when you are actually in the node
2010-12-10T01:51:49  <withate> yup
2010-12-10T01:52:20  <antimatroid1> have you got greedy bot sorted?
2010-12-10T01:52:42  <withate> no, not really. I do not know what should I be storing in messages
2010-12-10T01:52:48  <withate> since at some point, bot is going to die
2010-12-10T01:53:06  <withate> and bot can leave a message at the current node he is
2010-12-10T01:53:16  <withate> but if say ive got 10% resources, i leave A, i get to the B
2010-12-10T01:53:25  <withate> i die, and I can only leave the message at B
2010-12-10T01:53:40  <antimatroid1> i would write your own graph class that can add nodes and edges from "messages", then just have it filter added edges/nodes, and use all messages to build yourself a gaph
2010-12-10T01:53:47  <withate> so if lets say i run another bot, how do I know, that I am going to die in B, if ive got 10% before visiting it
2010-12-10T01:53:52  <withate> yeh, Ive got that
2010-12-10T01:54:00  <withate> i mean ive got my own graph class
2010-12-10T01:54:12  <withate> but i get stuck at building it
2010-12-10T01:54:16  <withate> because as soon as the bot dies
2010-12-10T01:54:36  <withate> im lost of how should i know that it is going to die
2010-12-10T01:54:48  <withate> at that node, if it enter having resources level below X
2010-12-10T01:55:23  <withate> since you can't really access the % modiffier either
2010-12-10T01:55:32  <withate> *node % modiffier
2010-12-10T01:55:53  <withate> unless doing something like ping-pong messages?
2010-12-10T01:56:22  <withate> if left with 10%, went there, and came back with 30%
2010-12-10T01:56:50  <antimatroid1> it's given me a cool idea for an ai game actually
2010-12-10T01:56:50  <withate> 30%-10%= value of node's resources modiffier
2010-12-10T01:56:53  <withate> am i making sense?
2010-12-10T01:57:00  <epona> whats the idea?
2010-12-10T01:58:58  <antimatroid1> epona: maps are random connected graphs, you don't see where their bots are (except maybe at adjacent nodes) then at each turn, you can send any number of your bots at a node along any edge or leave it there, any any combination of these, then if your bots end up in the same square as theirs then you battle like planet wars, and then i'm not sure how to do "growth"
2010-12-10T01:59:19  <antimatroid1> or any* combination
2010-12-10T01:59:36  <antimatroid1> withate: sort of, i'm not sure i full understand what's happening where, let me read it more
2010-12-10T01:59:40  <antimatroid1> :)
2010-12-10T02:00:00  <epona> so chess + planetwars?
2010-12-10T02:00:03  <withate> right, thanks
2010-12-10T02:00:50  <antimatroid1> not chess?
2010-12-10T02:00:56  <antimatroid1> it's simultaneous, quite like planet wars
2010-12-10T02:01:03  <antimatroid1> but you have more private information
2010-12-10T02:01:11  <antimatroid1> and the graph isn't fully connected
2010-12-10T02:01:25  <antimatroid1> you could even have uni-directional edges
2010-12-10T02:01:37  <epona> oh i see
2010-12-10T02:01:41  <antimatroid1> and have bots have to work out where the sink holes are
2010-12-10T02:01:45  <antimatroid1> that'd be cool actually
2010-12-10T02:02:23  <epona> what if you played planet wars
2010-12-10T02:02:25  <epona> in a cube
2010-12-10T02:02:32  <antimatroid1> 3d?
2010-12-10T02:02:36  <epona> yea
2010-12-10T02:02:44  <antimatroid1> it's not much different, other than more planets can be "closer" to each other
2010-12-10T02:03:16  <epona> I guess thats true, doesn't really mess up the distance formulas
2010-12-10T02:03:19  <antimatroid1> same goes for any number of dimensions, treating it like a graph you just sort of change the laws of how many planets can be at the same distance to each other
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2010-12-10T02:05:37  <antimatroid1> withate: what if you do a sort of go forward, go back leave message, go forward, go forward, go back
2010-12-10T02:06:13  <antimatroid1> you may even say on the second round
2010-12-10T02:06:14  <antimatroid1> go forward, leave message of node you're trying, if you end up getting to the node again and have that message without a return node, you know you can't go there, unless you have more than you did before
2010-12-10T02:06:26  <antimatroid1> return message*
2010-12-10T02:06:49  <antimatroid1> imo they went and took an awesome problem and made it stupidly messy :C
2010-12-10T02:06:58  <epona> lol
2010-12-10T02:07:16  <epona> that solves the negative problem though
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2010-12-10T02:08:14  <antimatroid1> i'm going to post that game idea in the forums and see if people like or hate
2010-12-10T02:08:37  <epona> do it! ill support it
2010-12-10T02:08:40  <withate> antimatroid1, i was thinking about it
2010-12-10T02:09:09  <withate> but lets say
2010-12-10T02:09:40  <withate> weve got A+20 (entry node)
2010-12-10T02:10:05  <withate> B+0, D-10, C-10
2010-12-10T02:10:31  <withate> and then A: B->D; B: A->D
2010-12-10T02:10:42  <withate> D: A->B->C
2010-12-10T02:10:53  <withate> so if you start off at A, you are at 20%
2010-12-10T02:11:05  <withate> you go to B - still 20%
2010-12-10T02:11:17  <withate> you go to D - youve got 10% left
2010-12-10T02:11:25  <withate> then you go to C - ur dead
2010-12-10T02:11:26  <epona> thats when you go back
2010-12-10T02:11:44  <epona> why would you move foward three time
2010-12-10T02:11:45  <epona> s
2010-12-10T02:11:56  <withate> you ve got the point.
2010-12-10T02:12:50  <withate> so i start of at A (20), leave message (resources=20, traversal=A,backtrack=A, going=B, returned=false).
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2010-12-10T02:13:28  <epona> if the node you arrive at is +20 +10 or +0 then you can use it as a staging place
2010-12-10T02:13:43  <epona> meaning, drop an object that doesn't make you go back
2010-12-10T02:14:07  <withate> i go to B (20), leavemessage(resources=20,traversal=A,B; backtrack=A,B; going=A, returned=false)
2010-12-10T02:14:48  <withate> when i return to A, i get last element of backtrack, and realise, that its resAdjustment = 0, and that it is safe to go there from A with 20%?
2010-12-10T02:15:13  <withate> but the thing is, i dont really know, what + or - it is at
2010-12-10T02:15:15  <antimatroid1> withate: leave a mesage at D saying, "I'm going to C, I have 10% left", then when you return say leave a message saying you got back
2010-12-10T02:15:30  <antimatroid1> then if you're ever at D with 10% left and no return message was sent, don't follow that path again
2010-12-10T02:16:01  <withate> but the thing is
2010-12-10T02:16:08  <withate> i cant really send messages
2010-12-10T02:16:15  <withate> i can just drop it where it is
2010-12-10T02:16:27  <withate> so how would i simulate sending?
2010-12-10T02:16:40  <withate> getting the last element of backtrack?
2010-12-10T02:16:52  <antimatroid1> that's my point, leave a mesage at the node saying where you're about to go and what resources you have
2010-12-10T02:17:05  <antimatroid1> then ammend that if you return from that node saying how much is there
2010-12-10T02:17:14  <epona> ^
2010-12-10T02:17:52  <antimatroid1> why they ruined such a nice problem i have no idea :\
2010-12-10T02:18:12  <withate> exactly, giving it to stupid students like me :))
2010-12-10T02:18:30  <antimatroid1> well all this extra work isn't really teaching you anything algorithms wise, it's just making it messy
2010-12-10T02:18:58  <withate> thanks, I will try that. btw, since we got these ping-pong messages, should I still be creating my own graph class and storing info in it?
2010-12-10T02:19:09  <withate> oh yes, thats Hughes, hes always messy
2010-12-10T02:19:30  <withate> (as well as his assignments)
2010-12-10T02:21:06  <withate> one more question, before I try implementing that, lets say I realise I can not go from B to C if im below X resources, what do I do? or should i be storing positive cycles as well?
2010-12-10T23:23:40  *** contestbot <contestbot!~supybot@69-196-133-132.dsl.teksavvy.com> has joined #aichallenge
2010-12-10T23:23:41  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o contestbot
2010-12-10T23:23:49  <amstan> @topic
2010-12-10T23:23:49  <contestbot> amstan: Official Google AI Challenge: http://ai-contest.com/ || Channel Logs: http://contestbot.hypertriangle.com/ || Congratulations to bocsimacko for first place! || Next Contest sometime in February
2010-12-10T23:23:57  <amstan> woot
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2010-12-10T23:34:39  <antimatroid1> :)
2010-12-10T23:43:19  <bhasker>  evening
2010-12-10T23:43:45  <antimatroid1> afternoon
2010-12-10T23:44:14  <bhasker> how goes it
2010-12-10T23:44:39  <antimatroid1> not bad
2010-12-10T23:44:44  <antimatroid1> what about yourself?
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2010-12-10T23:48:10  <bhasker> doing okay ...long day at work
2010-12-10T23:55:42  <Frontier_> sigh: rofl, what the heck? So this Goldman Sachs programmer used open source modules in his programs and reuses them at another company and Goldman Sachs is pissed?
2010-12-10T23:57:45  <sigh> Frontier_: no idea, I don't trust anything that article says... for obvious reasons