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2011-01-03T00:29:04  <jmcarthur> i love this line of code in my engine:   waitBots t f = sync (,) `on` timeoutMaybe t . liftIO . f . botStdout
2011-01-03T00:29:55  <jmcarthur> it's a function that takes a timeout duration, a function that takes a file handle argument and returns some data, two bot processes, and returns a pair of Maybes with the data from each bot from that turn
2011-01-03T00:30:11  <jmcarthur> the components of the pair are Nothing when bots time out
2011-01-03T00:31:14  <jmcarthur> it handles all the asynchronous IO behind the scenes
2011-01-03T00:31:43  <jmcarthur> well, you supply the IO function itself, but it handles doing it concurrently and interrupting it for the timeout and stuff
2011-01-03T00:32:26  <antimatroid1> jmcarthur: what are you writing your engine in?
2011-01-03T00:32:50  <antimatroid1> i did a very very horrible on in c++, i never want to try and write another one of those in c++
2011-01-03T00:33:09  <jmcarthur> haskell
2011-01-03T00:33:19  <jmcarthur> what else would i write it in? ;)
2011-01-03T00:33:29  <antimatroid1> :)
2011-01-03T00:33:34  <antimatroid1> i'm slowly learning haskell atm
2011-01-03T00:33:42  <antimatroid1> i'm sick of templates in c++
2011-01-03T00:33:52  <jmcarthur> yeah, C++ templates kind of suck
2011-01-03T00:33:59  <antimatroid1> they are horrific
2011-01-03T00:34:13  <antimatroid1> and opening up / communicating with processes with c++ was a real pain
2011-01-03T00:34:26  <jmcarthur> map<pair<int,int>,vector<string>>     hell no
2011-01-03T00:34:42  <antimatroid1> ?
2011-01-03T00:34:47  <jmcarthur> Map (Int, Int) [String]    hell yes
2011-01-03T00:34:59  <antimatroid1> hehe
2011-01-03T00:35:11  <jmcarthur> yes i know [] and vector are different
2011-01-03T00:35:25  <antimatroid1> close enough for waht i use them for
2011-01-03T00:36:08  <antimatroid1> can i set operator precedence in haskell?
2011-01-03T00:36:13  <jmcarthur> yes
2011-01-03T00:36:43  <jmcarthur> for example, you would put this on its own line:   infixr 0 $
2011-01-03T00:37:09  <jmcarthur> that says ($) is right associative and binds as loosely as possible
2011-01-03T00:37:15  <antimatroid1> i hate c++ for not letting me change that
2011-01-03T00:37:30  <antimatroid1> like if i have matrices, i can't do A*B^2, it has to be A*(B^2)
2011-01-03T00:38:05  <jmcarthur> in most languages i wouldn't even bother with operator overloading. to easy to make things confusing
2011-01-03T00:38:08  <jmcarthur> *too
2011-01-03T00:38:18  <antimatroid1> most of my programming is maths
2011-01-03T00:38:32  <antimatroid1> i'd prefer to stay consistent with maths notation than type out function names all over the place
2011-01-03T00:38:57  <jmcarthur> math notation isn't consistent enough to be worth being consistent with, IMO
2011-01-03T00:39:04  <antimatroid1> like, multiply(A, power(B, 2)) is just gross
2011-01-03T00:39:14  <antimatroid1> it is for that kind of thing
2011-01-03T00:39:20  <jmcarthur> multiple A (power B 2)    is okay to me
2011-01-03T00:39:25  <jmcarthur> *multiply
2011-01-03T00:39:50  <antimatroid1> A*B^2 is much preferred to me
2011-01-03T00:39:55  <antimatroid1> especially if the equation gets more complex
2011-01-03T00:40:01  <jmcarthur> syntax schmyntax
2011-01-03T00:40:50  <janzert> dmj111: the only WHR implementation I know of for sure is by an arimaa community member, Woh. I recall he released a windows gui but I'm not sure of any code.
2011-01-03T00:41:57  <antimatroid1> i thought it was a condition on entry that your code was shared at the end?
2011-01-03T00:42:36  <jmcarthur> this contest? no
2011-01-03T00:43:04  <antimatroid1> arimaa
2011-01-03T00:43:16  <jmcarthur> oh i wouldn't know anything about it
2011-01-03T00:43:20  <jmcarthur> nevermind me
2011-01-03T00:43:21  <antimatroid1> what is WHR?
2011-01-03T00:43:41  <janzert> antimatroid1: no, you have to allow omar to have continued use of the binary you submit is all
2011-01-03T00:43:55  <janzert> WHR, Whole History Ratings
2011-01-03T00:43:57  <antimatroid1> janzert: ahhh okay
2011-01-03T00:44:12  <janzert> a rating system developed by the author of bayeselo
2011-01-03T00:44:31  <antimatroid1> i wish all this stuff wasn't so hard
2011-01-03T00:44:42  <antimatroid1> the ai writing is the fun part, at least for me
2011-01-03T00:44:55  <janzert> I think I'm the only arimaa bot developer that releases his code on a regular basis
2011-01-03T00:46:13  <antimatroid1> is that because people are lazy or very private about their code?
2011-01-03T00:46:21  <antimatroid1> i guess it's different when it's the same game every year
2011-01-03T00:46:44  <janzert> yeah, I think they want to maintain a competitive advantage
2011-01-03T00:46:53  <janzert> I delay my releases by a year
2011-01-03T00:47:10  <janzert> for the same reason
2011-01-03T00:47:17  <antimatroid1> yep, fair enough
2011-01-03T00:47:32  <antimatroid1> gives you a year to make sure you don't release a $20,000 secret :P
2011-01-03T00:47:39  <janzert> :)
2011-01-03T00:47:53  <janzert> not likely
2011-01-03T00:47:59  <antimatroid1> i will slowly make a bot over the next year
2011-01-03T00:48:49  <janzert> I might release this year's bot early, since I'm in the process of starting over from scratch anyway
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2011-01-03T00:51:29  <antimatroid1> why are bots called engines for arimaa?
2011-01-03T00:52:08  <janzert> they're called both really, bots is probably the more common term
2011-01-03T00:52:20  <janzert> I borrowed the 'engine' term from chess engines
2011-01-03T00:52:43  <janzert> and I don't know where the term came from there :)
2011-01-03T00:55:13  <antimatroid1> where is the most recent copy of your bot online?
2011-01-03T00:56:00  <janzert> all my arimaa stuff is at http://arimaa.janzert.com/
2011-01-03T00:56:43  <janzert> the 2010 version will probably be released the beginning of march
2011-01-03T00:58:29  <janzert> and don't expect pretty or even very well commented code :/
2011-01-03T01:00:47  <antimatroid1> i never do
2011-01-03T01:00:55  <antimatroid1> i don't provide other people with amazing comments
2011-01-03T01:01:18  <antimatroid1> if they're lucky i might comment what a function is doing and it may be up to date
2011-01-03T01:03:46  <antimatroid1> "We did the factorial function earlier and it's the product of a number and the factorial of that number minus one. Such a recursive application doesn't make sense with zero, because factorials are defined only for positive integers"
2011-01-03T01:03:52  <antimatroid1> errr, isn't 0! := 1?
2011-01-03T01:03:55  <janzert> I generally figure I'm doing good to just try and make the code itself readable, anything above that you should consider pure luck
2011-01-03T01:04:37  <antimatroid1> that's what i was always taught
2011-01-03T01:04:56  <antimatroid1> this is from learnyouahaskell
2011-01-03T01:04:58  <jmcarthur> yes, 0! is usually consider to be 1
2011-01-03T01:05:04  <jmcarthur> *considered
2011-01-03T01:05:35  <janzert> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factorial "0! is a special case that is explicitly defined to be 1."
2011-01-03T01:06:08  <jmcarthur> it's easy to argue for it either way though. after all, it's kind of weird that product [0..n] is 0 for all n
2011-01-03T01:06:24  <jmcarthur> complicates the definition a bit
2011-01-03T01:06:30  <jmcarthur> of factorial, i mean
2011-01-03T01:07:16  <antimatroid1> not really, no lots of something is nothing
2011-01-03T01:07:34  <antimatroid1> 0! = 1 is a bit unintuitive though
2011-01-03T01:10:36  <antimatroid1> i think i will be happy with haskell
2011-01-03T01:10:40  <antimatroid1> happier than with c++
2011-01-03T01:12:18  <jmcarthur> doesn't take much to be happier than with c++ ;)
2011-01-03T01:13:59  <antimatroid1> my biggest beef with c++ is templates
2011-01-03T01:14:05  <antimatroid1> other than that i manage to get most things done
2011-01-03T01:14:28  <antimatroid1> although i like class variables in haskell
2011-01-03T01:14:42  <jmcarthur> type classes you mean?
2011-01-03T01:14:55  <antimatroid1> type variables* and type classes
2011-01-03T01:15:03  <jmcarthur> ah
2011-01-03T01:15:14  <antimatroid1> i have always wanted something like type variables in c++
2011-01-03T01:15:29  <jmcarthur> i assume you are talking about parametric polymorphism
2011-01-03T01:16:03  <antimatroid1> can you do stuff like | a == [b]    with type variables?
2011-01-03T01:16:21  <jmcarthur> you mean see if two types are equivalent?
2011-01-03T01:16:26  <antimatroid1> or are they just for function definition type things?
2011-01-03T01:16:27  <jmcarthur> you can with an extension
2011-01-03T01:17:06  <jmcarthur> you can say things like  foo :: (a b ~ c) => a Int -> b -> c
2011-01-03T01:17:23  <jmcarthur> the (a b ~ c) part says you want c to be the same as (a b)
2011-01-03T01:17:35  <jmcarthur> of course in this case you could have just said   foo :: a Int -> b -> a b
2011-01-03T01:18:16  <jmcarthur> what you wrote was what's called a guard, and yeah, it's value-level only
2011-01-03T01:19:18  <antimatroid1> yeah i know it's a guard, my question is can i use type variables in guards, so say i have a list, i might want to do something different to a list of lists of anything than to a list of somethigs where somethings aren't a list
2011-01-03T01:19:55  <jmcarthur> that would be an invalid situation in the first place
2011-01-03T01:19:59  <antimatroid1> there was a time when i wanted to do something like that, but i can't remember the exact example
2011-01-03T01:20:04  <antimatroid1> i have a feeling it was to do with tensors
2011-01-03T01:20:11  <jmcarthur> if it's a list of lists for one pattern then it's a list of lists for all patterns
2011-01-03T01:20:39  <antimatroid1> what if i am decreasing the dimensions in a tensor at each step, eventually  i might get back to 1 dimension and want to do something different
2011-01-03T01:21:43  <jmcarthur> if the dimensions are expressed at the type level then you could use type classes to give different behavior for each type
2011-01-03T01:21:43  <antimatroid1> i had a cool function for working out expected utilities from mixed strategies in n-player simultaneous games, i would do a sort of dot product with each players mixed strategy on what was left of the tensor, reducing the dimensions at each step
2011-01-03T01:22:08  <antimatroid1> until eventually you ended up with a single scalar that was the players expected utility, but i since came up with a more efficient way of doing it (not anywhere near as cool though :((
2011-01-03T01:22:28  <jmcarthur> or you could use a GADT so that the type can depend on the constructor
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2011-01-03T02:39:15  <antimatroid1> "Consider the expression sum (map sqrt [1..130]). Because $ has such a low precedence, we can rewrite that expression as sum $ map sqrt [1..130], saving ourselves precious keystrokes!" :D
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2011-01-03T02:42:13  <sigh> well, you didn't actually save any keystrokes there, but it's the thought that counts
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2011-01-03T02:46:15  <antimatroid1> :P
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2011-01-03T12:07:36  <jmcarthur> antimatroid: heh, yeah, no keystrokes saved when converting parens to ($), but it's a bit more readable once you get used to it, IMO
2011-01-03T12:08:53  <jmcarthur> antimatroid: in that particular example i think i would have written it as  sum . map sqrt $ [1.130]  though, because [1..130] looks like something that i will be turning into a function parameter later and writing it that way means i might be able to just drop it off so that the function looks like  foo = sum . map sqrt
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