2011-01-05T00:05:14 *** janzert1 has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T00:07:31 *** janzert has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2011-01-05T00:16:38 i agree with the game 2011-01-05T00:17:00 you want something that is simple to understand and easy for people to get started, but complex enough that there is variation in the strategies at the top of the leaderboard 2011-01-05T00:21:43 which game? 2011-01-05T00:24:18 antimatroid1 ^^ 2011-01-05T00:28:17 sigh: any game 2011-01-05T00:29:01 which game are you agreeing with? 2011-01-05T00:40:41 no game, that's the ideal kind of game for an ai contest 2011-01-05T00:46:52 oh sure 2011-01-05T01:39:56 *** narnach has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.) 2011-01-05T01:40:23 *** sigh has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-01-05T01:40:38 *** narnach has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T02:19:47 *** medrimonia has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T02:21:24 *** Utkarsh has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T02:25:43 *** tapwater has quit IRC (Quit: tapwater) 2011-01-05T02:36:30 *** sigh has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T02:41:26 *** Palmik has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T03:41:53 *** mega1 has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T03:52:47 *** aerique has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T03:59:49 *** Utkarsh has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-01-05T04:01:54 *** Naktibalda has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T04:04:09 *** Utkarsh has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T04:26:39 *** yasith has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-01-05T05:06:18 *** boegel has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T05:06:57 *** Utkarsh has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-01-05T05:12:29 *** Utkarsh has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T05:56:00 *** sigh has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-01-05T06:09:05 *** Migi32 has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T06:15:03 *** mceier has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T07:00:06 *** Naktibalda has quit IRC (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]) 2011-01-05T07:07:39 *** mceier has quit IRC (Quit: leaving) 2011-01-05T07:13:04 luitre beers are brutal 2011-01-05T07:34:57 *** amstan_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-01-05T07:41:09 *** boegel has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2011-01-05T07:41:11 *** boegel_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T07:47:08 *** boegel_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2011-01-05T07:48:47 *** Palmik has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-01-05T08:00:26 *** wh1teside has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-01-05T08:41:15 *** amstan has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T08:47:07 *** Migi32 has quit IRC (Quit: BOINC) 2011-01-05T08:49:50 *** Naktibalda has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T08:53:38 *** wh1teside has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T09:00:31 *** perror has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T09:04:23 *** narnach has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-01-05T09:09:35 *** narnach has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T10:30:40 *** boegel has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T10:36:38 *** JamesMG has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T10:38:10 *** yellowseed has left #aichallenge 2011-01-05T10:53:42 *** tapwater has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T11:05:16 *** boegel has quit IRC (Quit: *poof!*) 2011-01-05T11:07:58 *** Migi32 has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T11:18:30 *** mega1 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-01-05T11:20:39 *** aerique has quit IRC (Quit: ...) 2011-01-05T11:48:49 luitre beers? 2011-01-05T12:38:54 *** bhasker has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T12:46:11 *** Naktibalda has quit IRC (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86 [Firefox 3.6.8/20100722155716]) 2011-01-05T12:53:28 *** yasith has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T12:53:46 *** mceier has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T12:54:28 *** JamesMG has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-01-05T13:31:16 *** perror has quit IRC (Quit: Bye all !) 2011-01-05T13:40:18 *** yasith has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-01-05T13:42:36 *** wh1teside has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-01-05T14:09:15 *** Naktibalda has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T14:22:25 *** narnach has left #aichallenge 2011-01-05T14:36:40 *** boegel has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T14:46:13 *** dmj111 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-01-05T14:46:34 *** boegel_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T14:50:17 *** boegel_ has quit IRC (Client Quit) 2011-01-05T14:53:08 *** boegel_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T14:56:33 *** boegel_ has quit IRC (Client Quit) 2011-01-05T15:17:55 *** Accoun has quit IRC () 2011-01-05T15:19:29 *** Mathnerd314 has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T15:19:41 *** boegel has quit IRC (Quit: *poof!*) 2011-01-05T15:40:01 *** medrimonia has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.) 2011-01-05T15:41:46 *** medrimonia has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T15:49:05 *** Accoun has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T15:49:17 *** sigh has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T15:57:24 *** iFire has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2011-01-05T15:58:43 *** iFire has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T15:58:44 *** iFire has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T16:01:16 *** AlliedEnvy has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2011-01-05T16:01:23 *** sigh has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-01-05T16:40:47 *** AlliedEnvy has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T16:49:50 *** AlliedEnvy has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-01-05T17:05:49 *** bhasker has quit IRC (Quit: bhasker) 2011-01-05T17:10:39 *** AlliedEnvy has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T17:14:44 *** sigh has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T17:15:06 *** wh1teside has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T17:15:45 *** bhasker has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T17:17:22 *** bhasker_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T17:19:47 *** bhasker has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-01-05T17:32:05 *** amstan_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T17:32:05 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o amstan_ 2011-01-05T17:32:26 k 2011-01-05T17:32:51 i am about to meet with jeff, anyone wanting me to strangle him for you? lol 2011-01-05T17:33:31 antimatroid1, jmcarthur: ping 2011-01-05T17:35:53 did he do something i haven't heard about? 2011-01-05T17:37:17 *** delt0r_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T17:37:45 there he is! 2011-01-05T17:37:54 Zannick: yes... a lot of bad stuff 2011-01-05T17:37:56 lol 2011-01-05T17:38:22 heh 2011-01-05T17:40:43 *** wh1teside has quit IRC (Quit: leaving) 2011-01-05T17:41:20 *** wh1teside has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T17:43:15 *** Naktibalda has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-01-05T17:47:57 *** j3camero has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T17:48:11 Sup 2011-01-05T17:48:18 amstan and I are at the coffee shop. 2011-01-05T17:48:24 And the chick behind the counter is mad hot. 2011-01-05T17:48:36 j3camero: https://github.com/ai-contest 2011-01-05T17:50:58 pic it and share 2011-01-05T17:51:18 Oh man that would be so creepy. 2011-01-05T17:51:26 hahaha 2011-01-05T17:51:26 The shop is too small and quiet for me to get away with that. 2011-01-05T17:51:57 also that github repo has very old code in it 2011-01-05T17:52:09 Yeah. I think it needs a serious update. 2011-01-05T17:52:16 well.. if we could update it 2011-01-05T17:52:16 I like how its because its to small of a shop and your worried about getting seen more then how creepy it is 2011-01-05T17:52:51 I am just psychopathic like that yep. It's not wrong unless you get caught, everyone knows that :-P 2011-01-05T17:53:00 besides that all of the code should be replaced anyway, it's outdated wrt to the google svn repo 2011-01-05T17:53:28 Yup as of now the de facto repo is still at Google Code, even though we all want to move it to GitHub. 2011-01-05T17:54:24 is danielvf contactable to give you admin rights over those repos? (and who has the ai-contest account, anyway?) 2011-01-05T17:56:22 *** mysteriousdarren has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T18:04:18 *** antimatroid has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T18:04:42 Zannick: dstufft 2011-01-05T18:04:49 ah 2011-01-05T18:04:49 Zannick: i think we'll leave it for a while 2011-01-05T18:04:58 *** antimatroid1 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2011-01-05T18:05:00 Zannick: come some stuff to actually have something to put somewhere 2011-01-05T18:05:05 then we'll worry about where to put it 2011-01-05T18:05:21 sure 2011-01-05T18:05:27 i'm playing with django, j3camero's playing with ants 2011-01-05T18:05:46 i'm playing with PLY (don't ask) 2011-01-05T18:06:06 but anyway 2011-01-05T18:09:11 amstan_: pong! 2011-01-05T18:09:46 * jmcarthur is coding the real-time stratego thingy 2011-01-05T18:15:13 litre beers* 2011-01-05T18:15:27 haha 2011-01-05T18:15:31 that was forever ago 2011-01-05T18:15:41 i just got up :) 2011-01-05T18:17:11 amstan: what are you guys meeting about? 2011-01-05T18:17:36 antimatroid: everything 2011-01-05T18:18:11 so i'm thinking that i might generalize this engine for whatever game comes along in the future and give it several different modes of operation (one local game, local tournament mode, network server mode, network client mode, replay mode(?)) 2011-01-05T18:18:19 for the networking stuff in particular i have some ideas i'd like to see 2011-01-05T18:18:46 support for multiple bots from a single person at a time, for example 2011-01-05T18:19:03 and support for multiple games at once 2011-01-05T18:19:46 jmcarthur: how real time is it? from your description in the forums it just sounded like simul-turns like planet wars was 2011-01-05T18:20:21 Zannick: the stratego game? oh for now it's just simul-turn and you can move as many of your units per turn as you want 2011-01-05T18:20:34 rather than just one per turn 2011-01-05T18:20:40 yeah 2011-01-05T18:20:45 cool 2011-01-05T18:21:07 i'd like to be more "real time" than that, but people who like slower languages might complain about it 2011-01-05T18:21:17 like if it was a more asynchronous interface to the engine 2011-01-05T18:21:51 i think that's as good as it gets for fairness and ease of implementation 2011-01-05T18:21:55 and it's also just generally harder to be fair to both bots since you have tighter constraints on how quickly to feed them data 2011-01-05T18:22:02 yeah 2011-01-05T18:22:19 there are ways to simulate continuous space with discrete time, though 2011-01-05T18:22:27 which i think would be an interesting way to go 2011-01-05T18:22:52 is that just pausing play for input/output? 2011-01-05T18:22:53 well, by continuous space i just mean fine-grained discrete space and the ability to arrange for more fine-grained movements 2011-01-05T18:23:00 then incrementing continuous play to the next turn? 2011-01-05T18:23:04 yeah you can think of it like that 2011-01-05T18:23:47 if a game is to be approximating continous play, one would really expect the strategies to be written with a continous mindset 2011-01-05T18:23:53 i kind of like the idea that you could arrange for certain events to happen 2011-01-05T18:24:17 so like... it pauses, gives you the state of the game, and then you say "at time T i want this to happen and at time U i want this to happen" 2011-01-05T18:24:17 *** iFire has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-01-05T18:24:29 i'd love to do a differential game 2011-01-05T18:25:37 *** iFire has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T18:25:46 it gets tough with continuous space though because then things like collision detection come into the picture 2011-01-05T18:26:20 and inertia and stuff is implied for some games, too 2011-01-05T18:26:30 i kind of wanted that shooter idea i had earlier to be like this though 2011-01-05T18:27:22 a continuous space game where orders can only be processed every x time? (eg x=1 sec.) 2011-01-05T18:27:47 right 2011-01-05T18:28:05 hm. seems neat, though complicated 2011-01-05T18:28:21 would be hard to get started with i think 2011-01-05T18:28:25 probably not good for this contest 2011-01-05T18:28:28 yeah, that's what i'm thinking 2011-01-05T18:28:34 which is a shame, because it does sound fun, IMO 2011-01-05T18:28:45 a definitely fun to watch 2011-01-05T18:29:00 *and 2011-01-05T18:35:51 j3camero: http://192.168.101.93:8000/ 2011-01-05T18:36:33 jmcarthur: +1 for generalizing engine 2011-01-05T18:36:44 I like the idea of a continuous game too. It would be cool to do it in continuous time as well, like a real-time FPS or something. 2011-01-05T18:36:57 Then people with lower latency would be at an advantage, but meh. It would be so fun. 2011-01-05T18:38:49 it would be fun, but i think the additional challenges make it inappropriate for this contest :\ 2011-01-05T18:39:36 amstan_, j3camero: if either of you have general requests for an engine i'll consider adding them 2011-01-05T18:41:34 i'm thinking about making a "lobby" for the network game stuff to give the matchup algorithm a chance to make a better match and so that people don't have to add random wait loops just to get more variety 2011-01-05T18:41:52 and in fact i'm planning for the loop to be in the client itself so nobody has to deal with it 2011-01-05T18:42:18 and if you C^c it finishes whatever game(s) are currently running so you don't forfeit :D 2011-01-05T18:42:30 i haven't started any of the network stuff yet though 2011-01-05T18:49:07 so far these are the only options i have implemented: http://hpaste.org/42780/engine_thingy_help 2011-01-05T18:49:52 well, --maxturns is game-specific, and i'm not quite done with the stderr saving stuff, but that won't take much effort 2011-01-05T18:50:57 --killafter is intended so that bots can close up file handles and stuff cleanly after the game is over. engine gives a notification, waits for a short time, then forcefully kills the bot if it's still running 2011-01-05T18:51:02 *** antimatroid has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2011-01-05T18:51:07 and reports if it wasn't able to kill it even then 2011-01-05T18:51:51 maybe i should just count on bots handling SIGINT for cleanup though... 2011-01-05T18:52:26 and then try a SIGKILL if that doesn't work 2011-01-05T18:53:02 implementing a sigint handler isn't necessarily easy in all languages 2011-01-05T18:53:28 hmm 2011-01-05T18:53:31 i guess you're right 2011-01-05T18:54:20 i think i'll go for message SIGINT SIGKILL 2011-01-05T18:55:53 *** AlliedEnvy_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T18:56:09 jmcarthur: sounds good 2011-01-05T18:56:28 jmcarthur: what language is that? 2011-01-05T18:56:29 jmcarthur: TCP game servers are generally awesome. 2011-01-05T18:56:39 *** AlliedEnvy has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-01-05T18:56:58 amstan_: "message SIGINT SIGKILL" was just pseudocode 2011-01-05T18:57:10 jmcarthur: your engine i mean 2011-01-05T18:57:25 i'll give you three guesses, but two of them don't count 2011-01-05T18:57:31 /dist/build/stratego-engine/stratego-engine 2011-01-05T18:57:41 c? python? 2011-01-05T18:57:49 that's the default path for a cabal project (meaning it's haskell) 2011-01-05T18:57:51 oh! haskell? 2011-01-05T18:57:53 bash? pascal? c++? 2011-01-05T18:58:49 We should support pascal. Nothing wrong with pascal. 2011-01-05T18:58:57 Except that nobody uses it. 2011-01-05T18:59:04 support COBOL 2011-01-05T18:59:30 submit a starter package and compilation/execution instructions 2011-01-05T18:59:32 :P 2011-01-05T18:59:59 i'll throw up my repository later tonight, although i'm not sure if i should expect contributors 2011-01-05T19:00:15 *** AlliedEnvy_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-01-05T19:01:53 i meant SIGTERM earlier, not SIGINT 2011-01-05T19:10:08 *** antimatroid has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T19:13:38 *** Migi32 has quit IRC (Quit: BOINC) 2011-01-05T19:25:57 the engine so far. it doesn't run yet, aside from showing either the help text or the structure used internally to represent the chosen configuration. http://patch-tag.com/r/jmcarthur/ai-engine 2011-01-05T19:39:27 *** mceier has quit IRC (Quit: leaving) 2011-01-05T19:39:40 *** amriedle has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T19:46:15 *** amstan_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2011-01-05T19:46:45 *** j3camero has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-01-05T19:50:55 *** mysteriousdarren has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2011-01-05T19:52:03 *** mysteriousdarren has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T20:32:47 *** amstan_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T20:32:47 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o amstan_ 2011-01-05T20:38:33 *** j3camero has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T20:47:55 *** Utkarsh has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2011-01-05T20:53:59 *** Utkarsh has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T20:58:24 *** AlliedEnvy has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T20:58:56 *** dmj111 has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T21:01:10 *** mysteriousdarren has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2011-01-05T21:06:24 I am so close to having a video of my ants engine ready to share. 2011-01-05T21:06:38 oh you have your own ants engine, eh? 2011-01-05T21:06:39 *** mysteriousdarren has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T21:06:47 Very informally yeah. 2011-01-05T21:06:50 *** mysteriousdarren has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2011-01-05T21:06:56 I just want to throw it into the pile of options and ideas. 2011-01-05T21:07:03 cool 2011-01-05T21:07:13 *** mysteriousdarren has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T21:07:26 It's not an engine. Just a small Python script meant to generate the video I'm producing. 2011-01-05T21:07:33 ah 2011-01-05T21:08:13 does the game it represents differ much from the one that the visualizer that's been linked around a bit does? 2011-01-05T21:12:57 Yes, quite a bit. 2011-01-05T21:13:26 *** bhasker_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-01-05T21:21:23 j3camero: http://192.168.101.218:8000/admin/contest/ 2011-01-05T21:22:37 j3camero: jeff.cameron pass 2011-01-05T21:22:40 amstan_: nope can't see it 2011-01-05T21:23:15 192.168 is an internal ip, like for a router 2011-01-05T21:23:32 Zannick: they are together 2011-01-05T21:23:33 coffee shop network? 2011-01-05T21:23:40 unless you're on the same network 2011-01-05T21:23:42 Yeah :-) 2011-01-05T21:23:46 Coffee shop 2011-01-05T21:24:09 so hi-tech :) 2011-01-05T21:24:14 run the main server from there! 2011-01-05T21:24:25 haha 2011-01-05T21:24:57 i remember an improv everywhere video where they had people bring tower computers and large monitors to a coffee shop, instead of laptops 2011-01-05T21:25:20 * Zannick is on his laptop outside the cafeteria waiting for dinner 2011-01-05T21:25:46 they better have tipped the barista well 2011-01-05T21:26:25 how long have you guys been there? 2011-01-05T21:26:37 What you don't know is that the whole Tron contest was served off of an iPhone. 2011-01-05T21:27:26 good thing you didn't hold it wrong ;) 2011-01-05T21:27:29 Zannick: we switched to another coffee shop actually 2011-01-05T21:27:31 We were hacking at the Second Cup down the street for a few hours, then we got a bite to eat at Hero Burger, and now we're at the Starbucks at King & Yonge. 2011-01-05T21:27:51 We are so hip. 2011-01-05T21:41:39 * amstan_ kicks CIA-6 2011-01-05T21:41:39 ow 2011-01-05T21:44:01 aichallenge: Alexandru Stan master * rf55d91a / django/settings.py.sample : added blank settings.py file - http://bit.ly/eYCOyV 2011-01-05T21:44:06 woot 2011-01-05T21:44:13 j3camero, Zannick: ^^ 2011-01-05T21:44:46 Nice 2011-01-05T21:49:45 *** yasith has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T21:59:43 Okay heading home. 2011-01-05T21:59:46 See you all later! 2011-01-05T22:00:13 same 2011-01-05T22:04:22 *** amstan_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-01-05T22:05:00 *** j3camero has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2011-01-05T22:16:19 *** mysteriousdarren has left #aichallenge ("Ex-Chat") 2011-01-05T22:30:41 *** Accoun has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-01-05T22:33:19 amstan: fyi... settings.py.sample:60 "# Make this unique, and don't share it with anybody." 2011-01-05T22:37:35 *** amstan_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T22:37:35 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o amstan_ 2011-01-05T22:38:20 dmj111: btw, tau is the variable that determines how much to add to sigma between games in trueskill. more precisely, before a game, tau^2 is added to sigma^2 2011-01-05T22:38:41 *before a skill update 2011-01-05T22:38:46 what do you guys think of django? 2011-01-05T22:44:19 amstan: fyi... settings.py.sample:60 "# Make this unique, and don't share it with anybody." 2011-01-05T22:46:04 Zannick: ohshit 2011-01-05T22:46:12 Zannick: what is that anyway? 2011-01-05T22:47:02 i'm not familiar with django 2011-01-05T22:47:12 i'm guessing it's something it uses to authenticate itself 2011-01-05T22:48:47 *** Accoun has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T22:50:49 *** tapwater has quit IRC (Quit: tapwater) 2011-01-05T23:03:54 hey jmcarthur. 2011-01-05T23:04:11 I found tau, but wasn't using it. 2011-01-05T23:04:17 (in my code) 2011-01-05T23:04:52 when I did add it, even with a small value, it made the sigmas huge at the end. 2011-01-05T23:05:46 amstan_: I don't know anything about any web frameworks. But... django has a pony, right? that _has_ to be a good sign. 2011-01-05T23:07:49 jmcarthur: one other issue I have is relating the difference in mu to the probability of win / loss. microsoft's documentation on trueskill is better than their developer docs, but still leaves a lot of room for better explanations. 2011-01-05T23:08:00 boy, I am tired and grumpy. 2011-01-05T23:09:23 i think the beta variable is the standard deviation to use, so you find the inverse normal cdf of (mu1 - mu2) / beta. but i am not certain. 2011-01-05T23:20:17 *** amriedle has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-01-05T23:20:36 *** amriedle has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T23:32:40 *** fmeyer has quit IRC (Quit: leaving) 2011-01-05T23:33:28 *** fmeyer has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-05T23:35:12 *** amriedle has quit IRC (Quit: Lost terminal) 2011-01-05T23:39:27 dmj111: well, if you ever find a decently clear closed-form formula for 2-player or 2-team games i'd be interested in seeing it, because i agree with your comments that the documentation on it is a bit obtuse. 2011-01-05T23:39:42 same for the matchup algorithm