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2011-01-07T22:29:06 well 2011-01-07T22:29:11 we have some ieas 2011-01-07T22:29:14 ideas* 2011-01-07T22:29:29 i'm going camping for 6 days tomorrow, then going away for another week at the end of january, otherwise i'll have some time to do stuff 2011-01-07T22:29:44 we are thinking of not doing stuff from scratch yet 2011-01-07T22:29:57 launch another contest asap, with the structure we have now 2011-01-07T22:30:06 nothing much being changed 2011-01-07T22:30:14 that wouldn't take much maintenance either 2011-01-07T22:30:26 while we concentrate on coding the backend at the same time 2011-01-07T22:30:29 yeah fair enough 2011-01-07T22:30:36 there are a few things that i think should change 2011-01-07T22:30:46 that don't require a full rewrite of everything 2011-01-07T22:30:46 so... things we have to do for that: 2011-01-07T22:30:57 -new site 2011-01-07T22:31:07 -pick a game 2011-01-07T22:31:24 issue is that ants should be more than 2 players at once 2011-01-07T22:31:29 delt0r: how's your game coming along? 2011-01-07T22:31:41 why do you want ants to be more than 2 player? 2011-01-07T22:31:50 and we don't really have a multi player rankings system 2011-01-07T22:32:02 people have been playing around with trueskill 2011-01-07T22:32:11 that will do multiplayer rankings 2011-01-07T22:32:18 well, as far as i've been told anyway 2011-01-07T22:32:24 well.. is it ok to use though? 2011-01-07T22:32:27 how open is it? 2011-01-07T22:32:36 dmj111: you about? 2011-01-07T22:33:07 i don't know much about it myself, but it seems open enough for others to use it 2011-01-07T22:33:28 ok 2011-01-07T22:33:36 but it'll still require implementing 2011-01-07T22:33:40 i would expect rankings to be even less stable though 2011-01-07T22:34:03 personally i think 2 player games are still sufficiently hard that n>2 isn't really needed 2011-01-07T22:34:18 so... implement ants, implement trueskill, add new content for the site, make a visualizer, make starter packages 2011-01-07T22:34:23 it would be nice at some point, but if you're in a hurry to get the next contest going, possibly better to wait? 2011-01-07T22:34:56 ants could get more potential with multiplayer 2011-01-07T22:35:02 jeff has a simplified version 2011-01-07T22:35:04 yeah, it does sound cool 2011-01-07T22:35:20 is he running with the home base idea? 2011-01-07T22:35:25 no.. 2011-01-07T22:35:29 that's my favourite part of ants 2011-01-07T22:35:45 you get an ant... there's food points all over, they spawn during the game too 2011-01-07T22:35:47 *** Cold-Phoenix has quit IRC () 2011-01-07T22:35:59 if an ant comes to a food, the food gets converted to another ant 2011-01-07T22:36:08 when 2 enemy ants meet, they both die 2011-01-07T22:36:12 so it's just seek, destroy and multiply? 2011-01-07T22:36:16 yep 2011-01-07T22:36:25 i like the idea of having to try and invade/defend bases 2011-01-07T22:36:30 no need 2011-01-07T22:36:41 the idea then will be.. to controll the biggest area 2011-01-07T22:36:47 that way you'll always have more food 2011-01-07T22:36:55 since it keeps spawning 2011-01-07T22:37:23 that's easier said than done when you can't see the whole map, have to defend etc. 2011-01-07T22:37:37 yep 2011-01-07T22:37:48 that's why it's a good idea 2011-01-07T22:38:05 but issue is that multiplayer will be better 2011-01-07T22:38:08 wait, what? you just said you aren't running with it :P 2011-01-07T22:38:13 you can do multiplayer with home bases 2011-01-07T22:38:32 link? 2011-01-07T22:38:43 there is no link 2011-01-07T22:38:44 the home base thing as the visualizer showed seemed kinda clunky to me 2011-01-07T22:38:58 Zannick: too many ants? that was done because the ai was really shit 2011-01-07T22:38:59 as in you had to deposit food to it to make ants 2011-01-07T22:39:02 does it require an ant per process? 2011-01-07T22:39:11 process per ant* 2011-01-07T22:39:21 amstan_: you can't do a process per ant, too much overhead 2011-01-07T22:39:29 yeah.. so.. is it or not? 2011-01-07T22:39:34 no 2011-01-07T22:39:38 that's fairly ridiculous anyhow, you can simulate that with one process 2011-01-07T22:39:46 Zannick: not really 2011-01-07T22:39:54 it's useful when you can't simulate it, ie. real life 2011-01-07T22:40:10 Zannick: the idea is to stop them from communicating 2011-01-07T22:40:16 if you have a single process, each of your ants has the same information 2011-01-07T22:40:23 amstan_: ah 2011-01-07T22:40:34 that's... 2011-01-07T22:40:39 that's not a game with ants anymore 2011-01-07T22:40:41 even if you pass relative information, they all know what the other knows, and it just becomes a pattern matching exercise at the start 2011-01-07T22:41:01 Zannick: no.. if we wanted to make it cool we would have done that, each ant thinks for itself 2011-01-07T22:41:06 but that's too much overhead 2011-01-07T22:41:18 there would have been ways for the ants to communicate 2011-01-07T22:41:20 so it has to be a hive mind, all ants of the same team will have to be one process 2011-01-07T22:41:26 but it would have been like a max length string or something 2011-01-07T22:42:16 we also have to look for sponsors 2011-01-07T22:42:17 amstan_: what do you mean when you see ants both die when they come across each other? 2011-01-07T22:42:30 antimatroid: 2 ants meet, they both dissapear! 2011-01-07T22:42:40 is that if they land on the same square? what if more than 2 ants land there? all dead? 2011-01-07T22:42:51 it's also giving no real attack strategy 2011-01-07T22:42:56 distance smaller than epsilon 2011-01-07T22:43:05 if more than 2.. they get paired 2011-01-07T22:43:30 it's pretty much 0 payoff to each of you from losing an ant, cause they lost exactly the same thing, whereas if you let ants attack adjacent squares, some ants can run away while others surround and take them out 2011-01-07T22:43:32 2 allied ant? 2011-01-07T22:43:43 not really 2011-01-07T22:43:53 4 allied and 1 enemy? 2011-01-07T22:44:18 oh, that's contrived, if this is a square grid 2011-01-07T22:44:21 Zannick: 2 ants of the same team.. nothing happens, they'll both survive 2011-01-07T22:44:30 so ants can stack? 2011-01-07T22:44:54 ok.. if n blue ants meet m red ants... n-m blue ants survive 2011-01-07T22:44:58 i'm not really confident in this game 2011-01-07T22:45:02 no.. they don't stack.. 2011-01-07T22:45:26 tbh, neither am i, i'm not sure the games would be particularly interesting 2011-01-07T22:45:28 actually.. jeff has a simulation 2011-01-07T22:45:54 hey... I am reading through the conversation at the moment. 2011-01-07T22:46:14 dmj111: main question is about how hard it would be to set up multiplayer rankings with trueskill 2011-01-07T22:47:00 amstan_: definitely talk to Frontier about an official visualiser if ants is followed through with 2011-01-07T22:47:49 @later tell Frontier Hang around, we might need your help doing an ants visualizer for the next contest. 2011-01-07T22:47:49 amstan_: Yep. 2011-01-07T22:48:08 another contest option is that 3vs3 tron 2011-01-07T22:48:13 that jmcarthur suggested 2011-01-07T22:48:29 the multiplayer trueskill is far hairier than single player. there is a pretty open source C# implementation, I believe. 2011-01-07T22:48:29 we can keep bayeselo for that 2011-01-07T22:48:32 i'm not ver interested in doing another tron contest, but i could be in the minority 2011-01-07T22:49:00 i'm not very interested in ants, but i could be in the minority 2011-01-07T22:49:04 :P 2011-01-07T22:49:20 using it also requires ordering all finishers, first through last. 2011-01-07T22:49:27 although sigh sparked a cool idea with me for tron a few months ago 2011-01-07T22:49:29 though.. we might get sued by disney if we become bigger and we do tron 2011-01-07T22:49:32 could be semi fun to implement 2011-01-07T22:50:04 i'm pretty sure fair use, etc. etc. 2011-01-07T22:50:19 i'm going to do a complete 180 here 2011-01-07T22:50:32 i actually think i'd have fun implementing that tron idea, but i still feel some might not go for the repeat 2011-01-07T22:51:07 i think that eventually as we do more and more games that we'll either need to invent new ones every time or repeat some 2011-01-07T22:51:18 imagine the other guys who came too late for tron though... 2011-01-07T22:51:19 the problem with inventing games is determining a proper balance 2011-01-07T22:51:32 and making it interesting 2011-01-07T22:54:19 with tron, would nvn be better than 3v3? 2011-01-07T22:54:33 3 seems cooler 2011-01-07T22:55:03 3 is a high enough n to be cool while being a low enough number to be feasible 2011-01-07T22:55:22 ya, lol 2011-01-07T22:55:41 are edges going to be wrapped? 2011-01-07T22:55:57 no 2011-01-07T22:56:00 as opposed to walling off edges? 2011-01-07T22:56:05 yep 2011-01-07T22:56:27 my ants map gen can easily be converted to make maps for something like that 2011-01-07T22:57:53 i think 3v3 tron would be more interesting strategy wise than the above described ants game 2011-01-07T23:01:32 3v3 tron certainly seems interesting. What I wonder is if there is something obvious hidden there that we won't realize until games are played. 2011-01-07T23:02:20 But I have no clue where to even start for a decent idea. 2011-01-07T23:02:20 like? 2011-01-07T23:03:03 the biggest thing, i guess, is once it is 3v2, is it too easy? maybe not, because of space restrictions of multiple bikes. 2011-01-07T23:04:02 this is just me putting unedited thoughts out there. 2011-01-07T23:04:02 if I understand this right, then once seperated the best thing to do is kill off all but one bike? 2011-01-07T23:05:03 a bike's walls died off with the bike 2011-01-07T23:05:11 ah 2011-01-07T23:05:18 so that might unseparate you 2011-01-07T23:05:21 yep. 2011-01-07T23:05:29 that gives even more reason that you might suicide 2011-01-07T23:05:41 that gets very tricky 2011-01-07T23:05:46 i would have thought it's better to have a wall stay a wall 2011-01-07T23:05:56 it makes the game easier, which is already quite complicated 2011-01-07T23:06:06 i have a few ideas 2011-01-07T23:06:09 i'm down :P 2011-01-07T23:06:44 walls disappearing makes the state update more expensive which makes search harder, that's for sure 2011-01-07T23:06:58 so you are skewing it towards heuristics again 2011-01-07T23:07:42 well, without that each node has only 3^6 children 2011-01-07T23:07:56 4 2011-01-07T23:08:03 heck, each node has at most 3^6 children anyway 2011-01-07T23:08:06 since you can now suicide 2011-01-07T23:08:17 by doing a 180? 2011-01-07T23:08:22 yes 2011-01-07T23:08:25 :< 2011-01-07T23:08:27 4^6 2011-01-07T23:08:39 i guess the hope is that a heuristic favoring game might lead to cooler ideas, while a brute force game is just a brute. 2011-01-07T23:08:44 that's easier to calculate anyway, it's 2^12 which is 4096 2011-01-07T23:08:56 to hard and you can't get anything interesting done in time 2011-01-07T23:08:59 too* 2011-01-07T23:09:02 dmj111: too much each way is not good , I think 2011-01-07T23:09:04 which is much smaller than the 122 choose 22 planet wars started with 2011-01-07T23:09:35 sigh: ah. i see. 2011-01-07T23:09:43 where did you get 122 choose 22 from? 2011-01-07T23:09:48 dmj111: what do you see? 2011-01-07T23:10:01 if you have 3v3, max turns for each player on first turn is 12, 9 after that 2011-01-07T23:10:04 your point about too much either way. 2011-01-07T23:10:09 :) 2011-01-07T23:10:12 antimatroid: nope.. 2011-01-07T23:10:14 that's large enough that you aren't going to really get away with a basic minimax tree 2011-01-07T23:10:17 100 ships, 23 planets, each possible set of orders allocates that 100 ships among the 23 planets 2011-01-07T23:10:25 antimatroid: for each bike you havea a choice to turn 180 and suicide 2011-01-07T23:10:35 the formula for allocating k among n is (k+n-1) choose (n-1) 2011-01-07T23:10:40 antimatroid: it's just been regarded invalid in the last game since it makes you loose the game 2011-01-07T23:10:44 antimatroid: but not for 3v4 2011-01-07T23:10:46 3v3* 2011-01-07T23:10:53 fair point 2011-01-07T23:11:07 i would probably only consider that if i decided to kill one off 2011-01-07T23:11:18 but i guess you would want to with close range combat 2011-01-07T23:11:23 i think it would be more interesting if you had to drive into a wall to suicide 2011-01-07T23:11:27 Zannick: ah, yeah... and that's just first move :P 2011-01-07T23:11:32 rather than make it an option at any point 2011-01-07T23:11:35 Zannick: that is diving into a wall :P 2011-01-07T23:11:57 Zannick: you need 2 more turns then, but possible 2011-01-07T23:12:03 antimatroid: that kind of movement doesn't make sense in the actual game 2011-01-07T23:12:15 I agree... 180 degree turn doesn't seem like something the bikes can do 2011-01-07T23:12:15 amstan_: yeah 2011-01-07T23:12:20 neither does a 90 degree turn 2011-01-07T23:12:33 90 degree turn is all they do 2011-01-07T23:12:42 no turning? 2011-01-07T23:12:44 Zannick: it does.. imagine you're on the lightcycle ala the new movie, and you just loose controll of the bike and crash 2011-01-07T23:12:52 * Zannick hasn't seen the new movie 2011-01-07T23:12:52 in this it just goes straight across 2011-01-07T23:12:53 :P 2011-01-07T23:13:06 i'm thinking of the old one, you know, *Tron* 2011-01-07T23:13:10 Zannick: neither did i, just think of a bike going very fast.. 2011-01-07T23:13:33 i think in the end we abstract away enough... 2011-01-07T23:13:45 hmm, i kind of like the idea of walls disappearing 2011-01-07T23:13:56 completely changes up the game though 2011-01-07T23:14:15 that's good! :D 2011-01-07T23:16:00 the visibility calculations may be fun to do :) unless they are limited distance, I guess, then it would be easier. 2011-01-07T23:16:24 what would the visualiser do? 2011-01-07T23:16:24 not hard, just not as simple as the previous engines. 2011-01-07T23:16:30 separate shade of wall colour for each snake? 2011-01-07T23:16:43 that makes the most sense 2011-01-07T23:16:45 yeah, we could have that 2011-01-07T23:17:41 mini - rant ... i could almost watch planetwars on my black and white kindle. using shades for the bikes will never work there !! 2011-01-07T23:17:45 :) 2011-01-07T23:18:00 it does make the most sense. 2011-01-07T23:18:20 i think visibility on black and white kindles is fairly low on the priority list :P 2011-01-07T23:18:21 it's either that or different patterns on each trail 2011-01-07T23:18:35 antimatroid: i imagine. probably an audience of one. 2011-01-07T23:18:37 and shades is much simpler to implement 2011-01-07T23:19:02 dmj111: make yourself a visualiser :P 2011-01-07T23:19:55 * antimatroid is still confused as to why it's not called a gui, it's much quicker to type 2011-01-07T23:20:09 it's not a user interface though 2011-01-07T23:20:22 gi? :P 2011-01-07T23:20:22 mostly 2011-01-07T23:21:07 they are all vauge terms 2011-01-07T23:21:22 anyway 2011-01-07T23:21:23 I'm surprised no one argued with me :P 2011-01-07T23:21:29 i'm going to shower/sleep 2011-01-07T23:21:32 cya tomorrow 2011-01-07T23:21:38 night 2011-01-07T23:21:42 shower-sleeps are awesome 2011-01-07T23:21:43 night 2011-01-07T23:21:50 later 2011-01-07T23:22:06 so, to make fun of myself a little more... I didn't realize until the last week of the contest that you could mouseover the planets and ships to highlight them. 2011-01-07T23:22:24 I implemented that :P 2011-01-07T23:22:37 awesome. I wish I realized it did it earlier. 2011-01-07T23:22:46 mcleopold's tcp would let you hover over a planet to bring it to the front 2011-01-07T23:23:07 that needs to be done too, an official tcp 2011-01-07T23:23:18 dmj111: it was only there from the last month or so 2011-01-07T23:24:07 i feel better now. with all the time I was looking at it, it seemed that I should have noticed sooner. 2011-01-07T23:24:15 it was the same time as the click and draggable timeline 2011-01-07T23:24:22 did you notice that? 2011-01-07T23:24:23 what??? 2011-01-07T23:24:29 I did that too :P 2011-01-07T23:24:47 click on graph at the bottom 2011-01-07T23:25:17 holy crap. in my luddite keyboard only lifestyle, I *am* missing out on some good stuff. 2011-01-07T23:25:26 :D 2011-01-07T23:25:49 *** bhasker has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-07T23:25:53 *** amstan_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-01-07T23:25:57 those are both very nice features, sigh. thanks for putting them out there. 2011-01-07T23:26:40 dmj111: you at least knew you could use the key arrows yeah? 2011-01-07T23:26:50 :) 2011-01-07T23:26:51 i don't know about disappearing walls 2011-01-07T23:26:59 i'm playing around on paper, it makes it a really hard game 2011-01-07T23:27:02 yeah, once I found the keycombos, I quit using thing mouse at all. 2011-01-07T23:38:39 dmj111: thoughts on disappearing walls? 2011-01-07T23:39:28 i think they may be critical to a strategy. but I am not sure how to use them. 2011-01-07T23:40:07 for example you could suicide one bike to unleash a hidden bot and trap two enemy bikes who didn't know you were there. 2011-01-07T23:40:39 *** Mathnerd314 has quit IRC (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9.2.12/20101026210630]) 2011-01-07T23:41:00 it will really take playing some games to see. 2011-01-07T23:42:05 i also like it cause it reminds me of the original movie. which I haven't seen for 20 some years.. 2011-01-07T23:42:14 later, gotta sleep... 2011-01-07T23:45:16 night 2011-01-07T23:54:13 *** bhasker has quit IRC (Quit: bhasker) 2011-01-07T23:54:54 *** bhasker has joined #aichallenge