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IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-01-09T08:50:02 *** sigh_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-09T08:53:45 *** dmj111 has quit IRC (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2011-01-09T09:21:13 *** mega1 has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-09T10:21:36 *** mega1 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-01-09T11:20:28 *** Migi32 has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-09T11:30:56 did the tron stuff ever go open source? 2011-01-09T11:31:26 i would be interested in seeing the code if so 2011-01-09T11:32:12 i want to look through the engine, specifically, just to see if there are some corner cases relevant to my version of tron that i might be overlooking 2011-01-09T11:34:56 oh i just remembered that python engine that nneonneo made. i'll just check out that code 2011-01-09T11:35:27 oh, but the source is no longer in the forums :( 2011-01-09T11:35:35 hmm. maybe i just have it around 2011-01-09T11:35:51 yes! 2011-01-09T11:36:01 *** Mathnerd314 has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-09T11:37:55 ooh, good thing i looked at this. it reminded me of another feature to add to my engine 2011-01-09T11:38:00 map generation on the fly 2011-01-09T11:38:14 will be necessarily game-specific i guess, but oh well 2011-01-09T12:02:29 *** boegel has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-09T12:06:05 *** amriedle has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-09T12:26:11 *** mceier has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-09T13:05:15 *** Naktibalda has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-09T14:45:23 *** Cold-Phoenix has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-09T14:54:59 *** dmj111 has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-09T15:11:03 *** delt0r_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-09T15:12:15 *** delt0r___ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2011-01-09T15:16:19 *** amstan_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-09T15:16:19 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o amstan_ 2011-01-09T15:43:31 *** Cold-Phoenix has quit IRC () 2011-01-09T15:44:37 *** sigh has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-09T15:52:16 i made a little map example in the comments of my source code and i thought i'd share it http://hpaste.org/42901/nort 2011-01-09T15:52:50 A, B, and C are the current player's bikes, D, E, and F (only D is currently visible) are the enemies. the lowercase letters are walls created by each bike 2011-01-09T15:53:29 walls that come with the map (#) are known from the beginning, but walls created by opponents' bikes can be obscured 2011-01-09T15:54:03 i would just say obscure *all* walls created by bikes, but there's no point. might as well show the walls created by your own bikes 2011-01-09T15:54:50 well, that's not a map so much as an in-game state 2011-01-09T15:56:29 oh, and hopefully obviously, . means that tile is not currently visible 2011-01-09T15:57:56 here's a thought: walls in the new tron are transparent 2011-01-09T15:59:19 *** sigh has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-01-09T16:00:21 then how is it different than the old tron except for having 3 bikes to control? 2011-01-09T16:00:38 oh, you mean in the new movie? 2011-01-09T16:01:05 the new tron changed a lot of things 2011-01-09T16:02:33 they also did 6 vs. 6 in the new one instead of 3 vs. 3 2011-01-09T16:03:23 and they could turn continuously rather than discretely 2011-01-09T16:03:26 and the arena was 3d 2011-01-09T16:03:42 (multilevel, that is) 2011-01-09T16:04:36 anyway, i'm not making this to be like the movie. i'm making it to be fun and challenging :) 2011-01-09T16:04:48 :) 2011-01-09T16:05:57 i just happen to be drawing some inspiration from the first movie 2011-01-09T16:10:19 that's also a smaller map than i think would be best 2011-01-09T16:10:52 i'm thinking 50x50 and up would be better 2011-01-09T16:11:48 well, depending of course on the obstacles in the map 2011-01-09T16:30:27 *** wh1teside has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-01-09T16:32:22 *** mega1 has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-09T16:50:30 *** boegel has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) 2011-01-09T16:54:01 *** nullkuhl has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-09T16:57:04 *** mega1 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2011-01-09T17:02:08 *** n9thbit has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-09T17:13:35 *** tapwater has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-09T17:15:35 *** Palmik has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-01-09T17:37:15 *** Naktibalda has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-01-09T18:00:42 *** Palmik has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-09T18:24:12 *** Migi32 has quit IRC (Quit: BOINC) 2011-01-09T18:35:47 *** n9thbit has quit IRC (Quit: n9thbit) 2011-01-09T18:38:41 *** drodil has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2011-01-09T18:39:37 *** drodil has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-09T18:41:01 jmcarthur: just out of curiosity, how do you determine if a square is obscured? 2011-01-09T18:42:32 *** sigh_ is now known as sigh 2011-01-09T18:46:32 *** Palmik has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-01-09T19:05:08 *** Accoun has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2011-01-09T19:15:19 *** Accoun has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-09T19:47:29 sigh: the map i pasted was just eyeballed, but currently my code is using bresenham's algorithm to draw a line from the observer to the tile, and if any tiles in between are opaque then the tile is not visible. (i'm actually doing bresenham's algorithm in both directions because it's not symmetric). it's not the most efficient thing, but i think it's probably the easiest thing to put in the 2011-01-09T19:47:31 specification 2011-01-09T19:49:07 sigh: there are tons of algorithms for this in rogue-like games. they are just designed for efficiency more than for clarity 2011-01-09T19:50:44 ah i see, so it means that a square is observable if you can see the target's center from your center 2011-01-09T19:53:45 hmm... only the engine code really needs to worry about the algorithm, right? I wonder if any bots will get advanced enough to care about knowing what they can see in the future 2011-01-09T19:54:30 I would guess not 2011-01-09T20:03:09 *** Kingpin13 has quit IRC (Quit: You're a kitty!) 2011-01-09T20:05:28 i think quite a few bots will want to be able to do that actually 2011-01-09T20:06:10 for example, if they predict that an enemy bike might be at one or the other location at some time, they might want to try and see one of those locations to verify it or rule it out 2011-01-09T20:06:47 or they might try to make it so that the enemy can see as little as possible 2011-01-09T20:07:33 but really, that's a top 50 bots kind of thing, at the most, i predict 2011-01-09T20:09:18 i think there could be a big divide somewhere between the top bots and the rest of the crop, largely as a function of how well they are accounting for and exploiting this visibility thing 2011-01-09T20:09:26 which may or may not be a good thing about this game 2011-01-09T20:10:05 i personally think it's a good thing 2011-01-09T20:11:37 *** amstan__ has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-09T20:11:37 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o amstan__ 2011-01-09T20:33:13 it occurred to me to learn from past mistakes and make the communication protocol between the engine and bots extensible this time 2011-01-09T20:33:37 i was originally thinking of JSON, but it seems to not be rich enough to be simple *and* easy to read 2011-01-09T20:34:16 for example, the map would have to either be an array of strings or a single string with explicitly backslashed "\n" all over the place 2011-01-09T20:34:52 so i'm looking at YAML now and it's bringing back memories from when i was a ruby guy of how pretty YAML is. 2011-01-09T20:35:24 YAML seems to be a good fit so long as everybody can find decent libraries to use with their respective languages 2011-01-09T20:37:21 it has much richer data types, and it has explicit document markers so you can use it as a streaming protocol 2011-01-09T21:00:46 jmcarthur: language support should be one of the primary concern when deciding on the data format 2011-01-09T21:01:11 being able to quickly implement a starter package for a language was a huge advantage for the contest, imo 2011-01-09T21:12:45 *** amriedle has quit IRC (Quit: Lost terminal) 2011-01-09T21:15:16 jmcarthur: i don't think yaml is as supported 2011-01-09T21:15:29 jmcarthur: also.. jeff is a little against the json ideas as well 2011-01-09T21:15:38 he does not think there's a lot of library support 2011-01-09T21:15:41 and even if there is.. 2011-01-09T21:16:02 umm 2011-01-09T21:16:11 who cares what jeff thinks if he's wrong :P 2011-01-09T21:16:13 he wants to keep it open for noobs, so he doesn't want to ask them to setup all these libraries before they can actually code 2011-01-09T21:16:27 but the libraries make it *easier*... 2011-01-09T21:16:40 well.. he's the one that's giving money and stuff.. so.. 2011-01-09T21:17:15 jmcarthur: only for the person writing (or rewriting) the start pack 2011-01-09T21:17:32 (not advocating either way, just pointing it out) 2011-01-09T21:17:45 sigh: that even further supports me, actually. most noobs won't be writing starter packs 2011-01-09T21:18:02 but they will be installing libraries 2011-01-09T21:18:10 that was the point, I think 2011-01-09T21:18:35 yes 2011-01-09T21:19:01 imagine the average windows user, wanting to code in c++ 2011-01-09T21:19:06 he installs visual studio 2011-01-09T21:19:18 and downloads the code.. but it won't compile since it needs this json/yaml library.. 2011-01-09T21:19:39 and then the next day.. the forums will be full of questions of that kind 2011-01-09T21:21:21 why not just include the lib with the starter then? 2011-01-09T21:21:26 that's the point of a starter anyway 2011-01-09T21:22:21 (to include everything you need, that is) 2011-01-09T21:23:20 you still need to tell the ide where to compile stuff and so on 2011-01-09T21:23:31 yeah, i guess that could work 2011-01-09T21:23:37 +1 to the idea 2011-01-09T21:23:50 well, it sounds like we need to get it past jeff anyway 2011-01-09T21:24:15 yeah, so.. i'll be meeting with him weekly or more(i hope at least) 2011-01-09T21:24:27 so any idea you wanna pass him, just ping me, and i'll tell him 2011-01-09T21:24:35 if he's unreachable other ways 2011-01-09T21:24:35 alright 2011-01-09T21:24:48 like.. it's so sad.. all we need is him coming online more 2011-01-09T21:24:53 or sharing his ideas on the forums 2011-01-09T21:25:26 anyway 2011-01-09T21:25:31 i should go back to toronto 2011-01-09T21:38:32 *** mceier has quit IRC (Quit: leaving) 2011-01-09T21:38:40 http://www.google.com/trends?q=json,+yaml :( 2011-01-09T21:39:25 *** amstan__ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2011-01-09T21:40:27 *** amstan_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-01-09T21:45:00 http://www.google.com/trends?q=json%2C+xml :P 2011-01-09T21:46:41 yaml at the top. json at the bottom. http://hpaste.org/42914/yaml 2011-01-09T21:47:12 oh, and that yaml of course has comments that i should have stripped 2011-01-09T21:47:34 the json was generated automatically and it shows 2011-01-09T21:47:42 but still, that's the best we would be able to do with the map data 2011-01-09T21:48:23 json map should be an array of string, imo 2011-01-09T21:48:34 '\n' is not part of the map 2011-01-09T21:48:35 that would be a little nicer i guess 2011-01-09T21:48:42 still sucks 2011-01-09T21:48:54 well, the map is just a custom format, really 2011-01-09T21:49:08 the json/yaml "pure" version would be really fugly 2011-01-09T21:49:14 well, you can still show the same map if you format the json properly and use array of strings :P 2011-01-09T21:49:22 yeah 2011-01-09T21:49:46 json also has the advantage of integrating more easily with a canvas visualiser 2011-01-09T21:55:56 i'm not sure if most json serializers would make it pretty enough to read the map anyway 2011-01-09T21:57:47 then again i'm not sure about yaml serializers either, although i would have better expectations 2011-01-09T21:59:37 oh it looks like most of them put each array element on a new line, so i guess it would probably be fine with json 2011-01-09T22:00:06 most libraries have a pretty printer 2011-01-09T22:00:10 http://hpaste.org/paste/42914/prettier_json#p42916 2011-01-09T22:00:29 yes, I was just looking at the python one just now 2011-01-09T22:01:04 okay, this could be made to work. i'll go with json 2011-01-09T22:01:15 just pass it through in compact form, and if people want to debug they can use their library to pretty print 2011-01-09T22:01:43 unless you really don't care about wasting space, in which case just pretty print the whole thing :P 2011-01-09T22:01:44 it's still uglier than yaml, but i guess i can't think of any more issues i have with json so superficial stuff like that takes a back seat 2011-01-09T22:01:55 :) 2011-01-09T22:02:07 json also has faster parser libraries 2011-01-09T22:02:12 which would be good for the bots 2011-01-09T22:03:02 yeah, that's good 2011-01-09T22:49:43 *** Utkarsh has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2011-01-09T22:55:24 *** Utkarsh has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-09T23:05:02 pretty decent amount of snow we're getting here in alabama 2011-01-09T23:05:28 for alabama 2011-01-09T23:11:31 *** delt0r___ has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-09T23:13:21 *** delt0r_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2011-01-09T23:24:44 okay, another downside to json compared to yaml... less support for streaming protocols 2011-01-09T23:25:00 or messaging protocols, more correctly 2011-01-09T23:29:09 *** amstan__ has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-09T23:29:09 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o amstan__