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2011-01-12T19:49:30 well 2011-01-12T19:49:34 did you see the sim? 2011-01-12T19:49:48 *** medrimonia has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2011-01-12T19:50:50 *** Mathnerd314 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2011-01-12T19:52:50 from yesterday? 2011-01-12T19:52:52 yeah 2011-01-12T19:53:10 did you see the one where we fed them? 2011-01-12T19:53:16 yeah 2011-01-12T19:53:29 ok.. .well.. that's pretty much it 2011-01-12T19:53:45 i'm not a huge fan, to be honest. i'm not sure where the challenge would be. it looks like a tough optimization problem, but not a very interesting one 2011-01-12T19:54:16 oh.. there's also line of sight stuff 2011-01-12T19:54:20 oh? 2011-01-12T19:54:27 well.. it will be added 2011-01-12T19:54:34 what blocks vision? 2011-01-12T19:54:39 walls only? 2011-01-12T19:54:49 we were thinking fog of war 2011-01-12T19:54:57 oh, so field of vision 2011-01-12T19:54:58 not walls 2011-01-12T19:56:20 well, i've been rewriting my tron stuff today. i was finding all my imperative code to be more hassle than it was worth 2011-01-12T19:56:50 *** Frontier has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-12T19:58:12 So the list of idlers is getting shorter I see. 2011-01-12T19:58:42 *** sigh has quit IRC (Read error: No route to host) 2011-01-12T19:59:20 Frontier: yeah 2011-01-12T20:02:55 Do you know anyone who is good with web design? I find it hard to create a good layout for the ant visualizer. Then again, I didn't want to put more work in it than necessary. 2011-01-12T20:03:54 i have a couple friends that do it professionally. i am decent at it too, but i don't like doing it. 2011-01-12T20:04:05 I found the HaxBall football game very promising as well, but it seems like we are setteling for the ant game now. 2011-01-12T20:04:13 no we're not 2011-01-12T20:04:22 :P 2011-01-12T20:04:32 (this is me being assertive beyond my authority) 2011-01-12T20:04:35 *** sigh has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-12T20:05:08 *** medrimonia has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-12T20:05:08 haha. To me it means more work if the ant game is chosen :o) 2011-01-12T20:05:27 honestly, it might be a good thing if i hate the game for the next contest. it means i won't be tempted to participate and i can get more productive things done 2011-01-12T20:05:29 So I have an interest in selecting something else. 2011-01-12T20:06:23 jmcarthur: So what would you like to see next? Hopefully no Tron clone ^ 2011-01-12T20:06:31 Frontier, jmcarthur: ants is definatelly a game for the future 2011-01-12T20:06:44 jmcarthur's tron also seems like a good choice 2011-01-12T20:06:52 but they're not set in stone yet 2011-01-12T20:06:54 Frontier: my preferred game is a very different tron from the last one 2011-01-12T20:07:19 i don't mind the idea of ants, but i don't like what i've seen so far 2011-01-12T20:08:43 we definitely could use more ideas 2011-01-12T20:08:55 And I don't like to go into a competition where others start with adapting their winning entries from last year. The concepts and algorithms for cutting off space from the opponent seem to similar too me. It doesn't excite me at all. 2011-01-12T20:09:05 jmcarthur: idk.. me and jeff were blown away by those ants yesterday 2011-01-12T20:09:36 Frontier: you cannot realistically apply the same algo from last year on newtron 2011-01-12T20:09:36 i'm just not seeing much depth in it 2011-01-12T20:09:48 yeah, there's no way the old algos will work 2011-01-12T20:10:03 amstan: What kind of changes did you do to the game? Or what is the difference to the visualizer version. 2011-01-12T20:10:27 Frontier: my tron is 3v3 and walls blocks your vision 2011-01-12T20:10:32 *block 2011-01-12T20:11:24 Frontier: their version of ants is basically simplified 2011-01-12T20:11:45 jmcarthur, amstan: You are probably right, still it feels old and repetetive to me. And others think the same about it. 2011-01-12T20:12:11 Frontier: repetitive maybe 2011-01-12T20:12:12 Frontier: no hill. come near food and it becomes an ant. come near an enemy and they both die. food spawns randomly. 2011-01-12T20:13:06 Frontier: but last contest we had a 600% groth in our users, if only 100% happen for next contest... we'll still have 12 out of 13 ppl who didn't compete in tron 2011-01-12T20:14:00 Frontier: maybe once i have this working with some simple bots and you can see it in action you might change your mind 2011-01-12T20:14:01 I didn't compete in tron. That might be the problem for me. :D 2011-01-12T20:14:13 IMO, tron was way better than planet wars 2011-01-12T20:14:26 it had some glaring flaws though 2011-01-12T20:14:37 like everybody converging on the same one or two algorithms 2011-01-12T20:14:45 i don't think that would happen with this new version 2011-01-12T20:17:21 Ok, when you have some promotional material ^^ we could put up a poll on the forums for all the ideas we have proven to technically work. 2011-01-12T20:23:16 amstan: You or Jeff can probably use the current visualizer for the ants game without change. Maybe you can even place the ant hills at (-1;-1) or something like that. But only square maps will work. 2011-01-12T20:23:46 huh? 2011-01-12T20:23:59 my biggest objection to the ant engine you guys are using right now is that you're using images to define maps 2011-01-12T20:24:04 We have commands to fade in (spawn) or fade out (kill) an ant, movement etc. 2011-01-12T20:24:18 :) 2011-01-12T20:24:29 Frontier: what current visualizer? 2011-01-12T20:24:47 Zannick: I have a option for pure grid gfx in mind for you :p 2011-01-12T20:25:14 amstan: Yeah, it loads text files with commands and displays them. 2011-01-12T20:25:21 Frontier: no, i'm talking about the one in the repo 2011-01-12T20:25:34 Frontier: what visualizer? 2011-01-12T20:25:44 lol, I'm confused now 2011-01-12T20:25:45 we have a gif maker right now 2011-01-12T20:25:51 Is there a 2nd visualizer? 2011-01-12T20:25:57 idk.. is there 2011-01-12T20:26:05 the only one i'm aware of.. if you can call a visualizer 2011-01-12T20:26:06 which loads a png and bases maneuverability on color 2011-01-12T20:26:08 is the makefile 2011-01-12T20:26:30 Zannick: actually.. internal python state i think is with an array 2011-01-12T20:26:39 @repo 2011-01-12T20:26:40 amstan: repo = https://github.com/amstan/aichallenge/ 2011-01-12T20:26:42 gif, png, visualizer, makefile ????? ???? 2011-01-12T20:27:47 https://github.com/amstan/aichallenge/tree/simpleants 2011-01-12T20:27:52 honestly i kind of like using images for maps 2011-01-12T20:28:02 makes it easy to make your own maps using gimp or whatever 2011-01-12T20:28:14 amstan: you're reading it from an image, though! :P 2011-01-12T20:28:22 Zannick: so? 2011-01-12T20:28:55 it feels like too much overhead to me 2011-01-12T20:28:57 that's all 2011-01-12T20:29:01 lol overhead 2011-01-12T20:29:15 it's written in python and you complain about the map format? :P 2011-01-12T20:29:23 Zannick: so... this is a prototype 2011-01-12T20:29:39 just to make sure there's nothing flawed about the rules 2011-01-12T20:29:48 jmcarthur doesn't agree with them apparently 2011-01-12T20:29:53 i don't think reading from an image implies too much overhead 2011-01-12T20:29:53 i said "my biggest objection"... 2011-01-12T20:30:08 it was not made to last, jeff was opposed to even using a repo for it 2011-01-12T20:30:29 i would have gone for a text file for a prototype 2011-01-12T20:30:43 jmcarthur: the image size and the need to use an Image library 2011-01-12T20:30:55 don't worry about it 2011-01-12T20:31:03 i'm just thinking out loud 2011-01-12T20:31:18 Zannick: idk.. depending on an image library is meh.. 2011-01-12T20:31:37 a simpler image format would make it easier to read the image without a library. bmp is pretty simple, for example 2011-01-12T20:32:10 or tga 2011-01-12T20:32:15 Alternative: make a tool that converts from (arbitrary image format) -> (map format). 2011-01-12T20:32:15 so... why would you write extra code for parsing bmp without a library? 2011-01-12T20:32:34 or worse.. write it in python so it's actually slower than pil 2011-01-12T20:32:42 black/white bitmap or tga for example :) - can be viewed in an explorer window and is small 2011-01-12T20:32:42 jbroman: hey, what's up? 2011-01-12T20:33:00 amstan: Not much, just lurking mostly. 2011-01-12T20:33:08 i am definitely not advocating writing your own when there are existing libraries already :P 2011-01-12T20:33:17 So you want to make it a four player game? 2011-01-12T20:33:19 it's just that some people who are not me don't like depending on libraries 2011-01-12T20:34:01 It's easier to port with fewer dependencies. Make the map format simple and close to the obvious internal representation, and then make tools to convert from images (that tool could link against libpng or whatever). 2011-01-12T20:34:04 (Did I mention I wrote an animated gif viewer for DOS in assembly once? ^^) 2011-01-12T20:35:32 Or just use an uncompressed black/white bitmap. Then people can chose to just skip the n bytes of header data and read the image without a lib if they want to. 2011-01-12T20:35:55 black and white is insufficient 2011-01-12T20:36:04 there are also colors for each starting position 2011-01-12T20:36:07 in addition to the walls 2011-01-12T20:36:40 jbroman: our platform needs for the engine are pretty limited, we'll mostly use ubuntus, and we did migrate toward using python 2011-01-12T20:38:10 well presumably people would also need to run the engine or some version of it locally 2011-01-12T20:38:13 for testing 2011-01-12T20:38:35 Yeah, I would tend for a brain-dead simple, no-way-you-could-possibly-screw-it-up format. 2011-01-12T20:39:44 a converter from an image format would be a good idea though. it *is* handy to make maps in image editors :) 2011-01-12T20:40:17 jmcarthur: Sure. And you could even throw this tool server-side and make it accept things drawn in an HTML5 canvas or something. 2011-01-12T20:40:29 learned from game dev experience :) 2011-01-12T20:40:38 abusing image editors 2011-01-12T20:40:58 amstan: I won't be able to provide a visualizer that is anything like http://marco-leise.homedns.org/antgui/v3/ for Jeff's version. First of all it is 4x the size in each dimension and second the ants are just points. So there isn't really much I can do but ... draw points ^^. 2011-01-12T20:40:59 Hey, no sense reinventing the wheel. 2011-01-12T20:45:02 ...silence... 2011-01-12T20:45:13 * Frontier tunes into a metal radio station 2011-01-12T20:53:11 amstan: I just found your forum post with the animated gifs. It looks better than I expected :D 2011-01-12T20:53:25 Frontier: you should read the forums more.. 2011-01-12T20:54:12 for the record, having red dots moving around on a green background doesn't look good on slow LCDs 2011-01-12T21:00:29 What happens when more than one player comes close to a food item? 2011-01-12T21:31:52 *** bhasker has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-12T21:34:45 i don't know about what actually happens, but i would guess that the most sensible thing is for both ants to die. maybe the food could disappear as well 2011-01-12T21:38:36 I fear that currently it works top-to-bottom, left-to-right *g* 2011-01-12T21:39:31 Like the top-left most ant will convert the food to a fellow ant and this and will die in a 'battle' with the enemy ant that is on the bottom-right of the former food item 2011-01-12T21:46:16 whoa 2011-01-12T21:46:20 i havent been on the forums for a while 2011-01-12T21:46:35 *** bhasker has left #aichallenge 2011-01-12T21:51:06 pgpaskar_: Days, weeks, months? 2011-01-12T21:51:13 Weeks. 2011-01-12T21:52:29 jmcarthur: It seems like sometimes the ants harvesting a food item die together with the converted food for no apparent reason. Except that an enemy ant is one step away from the new ant. 2011-01-12T21:53:21 phew ... https://github.com/dougz/trueskill 2011-01-12T21:53:22 it says you need scipy, but I bet it is just for the stat functions. If so, that is easy enough to get around. Reading the code now. 2011-01-12T21:55:53 On turn 67 in simpleantswithfood.gif on the left side you see red and white ants approaching a food item and then the food item and a red ant just disappear from the board. 2011-01-12T21:57:46 I think one sensible option is to give the food to the closer ant, do nothing if both ants are equally close, in which case they will move closer to the food and annihilate each other :P 2011-01-12T21:59:57 either that, or just don't convert the food at all if opposing players are both in range 2011-01-12T22:00:58 So... and what happens when 16 ants of player A circle an ant of player B, sigh? Do you have a smart answer for that, too? ;) 2011-01-12T22:01:39 what's special about that scenario? 2011-01-12T22:01:49 in typical hollywood fashion they fight one at a time so that the protagonist stands a chance at beating them ;) 2011-01-12T22:02:15 sigh: should all 16 ants of A die? really? 2011-01-12T22:02:40 This is so... Chuck Norris 2011-01-12T22:02:45 oh i see... of course only one should die from each side, or none :P 2011-01-12T22:02:57 which one? 2011-01-12T22:03:16 if all ants are equidistant, then I can't see anything other than making it random 2011-01-12T22:03:25 lame 2011-01-12T22:03:36 I can't see a neat solution 2011-01-12T22:03:38 random is a no-go :-) 2011-01-12T22:03:44 now... give the ants guns, then they have to shoot each other :P 2011-01-12T22:03:51 the other option is to say that no one dies, and that play A has to back off with some ants 2011-01-12T22:04:00 *player A 2011-01-12T22:04:14 how about if an ant is outnumbered then it doesn't get to take any other ants out before it goes 2011-01-12T22:04:26 that seems a bit unfair 2011-01-12T22:04:35 it gives advantage to an already strong player 2011-01-12T22:04:47 it just means you have to be more cautious in the early game 2011-01-12T22:05:03 keep your ants in groups, etc. 2011-01-12T22:05:21 Ok... i had one more question on the forum. wait a moment... 2011-01-12T22:05:31 When there is a string of food items and an ant comes close to it a cascade is started and all the food items in the string convert to ants. How are food items shared between two players that come close to either end of the string? 2011-01-12T22:07:22 jmcarthur: have to try it and I guess... what you proposed will promote mirco skills, because with proper micro you can take out ants without losing your own 2011-01-12T22:07:44 it could be interesting 2011-01-12T22:09:41 if you are smart you can take out a group of enemies using only 2 ants :P 2011-01-12T22:09:43 yeah, i didn't think of that 2011-01-12T22:09:56 that could be an area that makes the AI actually fun to write 2011-01-12T22:10:09 yeah, you hit on a really interesting idea 2011-01-12T22:10:35 maybe the same rule could apply to food conversion 2011-01-12T22:10:41 convert to the side with the most ants 2011-01-12T22:10:59 what about when equal? 2011-01-12T22:11:01 that only leave perfectly equal 2011-01-12T22:11:05 yeah, dunno 2011-01-12T22:11:11 i vote for it to just destroy the food 2011-01-12T22:11:17 *** javagamer_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-12T22:11:32 either that or leave the food alone 2011-01-12T22:11:37 i guess either would be okay 2011-01-12T22:11:40 * pgpaskar_ slaps amstan 2011-01-12T22:11:42 I'd rather leave the food alone 2011-01-12T22:11:47 if the food just stays then that would encourage more micro 2011-01-12T22:11:55 more battles over food and stuff 2011-01-12T22:12:10 yeah 2011-01-12T22:12:15 *** javagamer has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-01-12T22:12:33 i think this may be the kind of thing i was missing in the ants idea 2011-01-12T22:12:39 Would that be ok for blocks of food, too? I mean what if there is a bunch of 20 food items in one place, all within 2 squares distance from each other. 2011-01-12T22:12:47 this makes small decisions potentially big turning points in the game 2011-01-12T22:13:38 Frontier: tough 2011-01-12T22:13:42 hmm... 2011-01-12T22:13:55 maybe it should cascade over multiple turns? 2011-01-12T22:13:56 and giving up food is not always bad if you trade for good positioning 2011-01-12T22:14:59 a tight wall of ants can hold back a loose swarm of ants without taking any losses 2011-01-12T22:15:12 it would become a game of flanking 2011-01-12T22:15:27 *sigh* there goes my visualizer 2011-01-12T22:15:47 amstan: get in here and read the backlog. this is good stuff 2011-01-12T22:15:59 but! minecraft videos! 2011-01-12T22:16:24 minecraft... this is a mania like sponge bob by now. 2011-01-12T22:16:35 To be fair, I don't like minecraft :] 2011-01-12T22:16:42 my wife is on the couch next to me playing minecraft right now 2011-01-12T22:16:55 It brings back too much nostalgia from Tribes 2 2011-01-12T22:17:02 I can't go through a dark age in my life like that again. 2011-01-12T22:17:21 Lol, somehow I like the idea of minecraft. I mean... this endless world is just amazing 2011-01-12T22:17:28 i like it too 2011-01-12T22:17:36 i wish notch would write fewer bugs though 2011-01-12T22:17:45 Hours upon hours spent building the most exquisite and intricate space ships only to have them wiped out by the zombie apoclypse. somehow it never got boring.... until it stopped working. 2011-01-12T22:18:02 space ships? zombies? 2011-01-12T22:18:04 Except they were spaceships built on land because it was a land game. 2011-01-12T22:18:13 But they had all the glory of something that *could* fly :] 2011-01-12T22:18:38 Was it made of wood or stone tiles? ^^ 2011-01-12T22:18:57 Girders. 2011-01-12T22:18:59 Lots of girders. 2011-01-12T22:19:02 And square platforms 2011-01-12T22:21:12 http://www.the-construct.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=4266 2011-01-12T22:21:21 * pgpaskar_ nostalgia overload 2011-01-12T22:23:10 *** javagamer_ has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-01-12T22:26:26 the trueskill python implementation looks good. It doesn't handle teams of players, but it does multiplayer. 2011-01-12T22:26:45 *** javagamer has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-12T22:27:42 pgpaskar_: Nice staff weapon you have there. I didn't know the Goa'uld landed in this game. 2011-01-12T22:27:44 *** jmpespxoreax has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-01-12T22:27:56 dont hate on the construction tool 2011-01-12T22:30:33 i do see a downside in the algorithm though. Given multiple players, you have to rank them from best to worst, and mark ties. 2011-01-12T22:30:34 Two players who tie, even if they start with the same ratings, don't have the same ratings at end. They are _close_, but not the same. 2011-01-12T22:32:05 Given A, B, C, D, all starting at mu=25.0, sigma=8.3333, if they are ordered A - D, but B and C tie, here are the results: 2011-01-12T22:32:25 A: mu=31.565 sigma=6.404, B: mu=24.993 sigma=5.559, C: mu=25.007 sigma=5.559, D: mu=18.436 sigma=6.404 2011-01-12T22:33:47 for all practical purposes, that is probably fine... that is why we play a lot of games. unless there are overlords involved. 2011-01-12T22:35:31 *** a has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-12T22:35:41 overlords? 2011-01-12T22:35:51 For supply, so you can build more zerglings. 2011-01-12T22:35:57 *** a is now known as Guest44402 2011-01-12T22:36:17 but what has starcraft got to do with this? 2011-01-12T22:36:55 * sigh is lost 2011-01-12T22:37:03 pgpaskar_: no man... diamond is better 2011-01-12T23:14:19 *** delt0r_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-12T23:15:42 *** delt0r___ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-01-12T23:39:11 *** bhasker has joined #aichallenge 2011-01-12T23:46:32 *** Mathnerd314 has joined #aichallenge