2011-01-14T00:00:29  <Chris_0076> hmm not as well as I had hoped, but my fix does save ~35-40 secs per 1000 turns
2011-01-14T00:05:32  <amstan> lol
2011-01-14T00:07:01  <Chris_0076> my original prediction was about 1-2mins but it did not scale as planned.
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2011-01-14T00:56:54  <rabidus> in what game you guys are on?
2011-01-14T01:17:34  <antimatroid> http://queue.acm.org/icpc/
2011-01-14T01:17:40  <antimatroid> this link is better for that snowman game
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2011-01-14T05:08:55  <Meatkat> Zombies.coolness >> Ants.coolness http://ai-contest.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=1243&p=8396#p8396
2011-01-14T05:09:31  <antimatroid> Meatkat: i was directed to a new contest today i'm interested enough in to have started making a bot
2011-01-14T05:09:49  <antimatroid> http://queue.acm.org/icpc/
2011-01-14T05:09:53  <antimatroid> that's the best link
2011-01-14T05:14:44  <Meatkat> antimatroid: that looks pretty fun, nice and short as well
2011-01-14T05:15:24  <Meatkat> It'll be over just as this one starts
2011-01-14T05:16:04  <antimatroid> yep
2011-01-14T05:16:15  <antimatroid> i'm not going to put a huge amount of effort in
2011-01-14T05:16:27  <antimatroid> just making some kind of tree strategy and will see how it does
2011-01-14T05:16:38  <antimatroid> throwing in a few other algorithms to pick out moves
2011-01-14T05:18:16  <Meatkat> Cool, I'm tempted but I'm currently doing BattleCode
2011-01-14T05:18:39  <antimatroid> do you need a team member? someone messaged me on reddit about that the other day
2011-01-14T05:18:45  <antimatroid> i haven't got around to responding to them yet
2011-01-14T05:19:13  <Meatkat> Hmmm... 2 questions. Are they smart? and do they get stuff done?
2011-01-14T05:19:26  <Meatkat> We're looking for 1 more
2011-01-14T05:22:27  <antimatroid> no idea
2011-01-14T05:22:34  <antimatroid> i'll check their username, hold up
2011-01-14T05:23:02  <antimatroid> http://www.ai-contest.com/profile.php?user_id=6026
2011-01-14T05:23:53  <sigh> haha... when you said that you'll check their username, I thought you were going to stalk their reddit account :P
2011-01-14T05:24:30  <antimatroid> :P
2011-01-14T05:24:59  <antimatroid> i don't think i'm that amazing that i could judge someone from comments on a website
2011-01-14T05:25:18  <antimatroid> not that that would stop me from doing it
2011-01-14T05:26:04  <Meatkat> Loading... what do you guys think of the zombie theme instead of the ant theme?
2011-01-14T05:26:54  <Meatkat> From Oct 9-Oct 30th their entry didn't compile. Is that a noob thing or a C# thing? I heard they had problems
2011-01-14T05:28:28  <antimatroid> amstan: what's the go with that simplified ants game?
2011-01-14T05:28:48  <antimatroid> you have food popping up during the game, that's iffy with respect to staying symmetric
2011-01-14T05:29:05  <antimatroid> Meatkat: no idea sorry
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2011-01-14T05:39:44  <Meatkat> Cool, well I'll keep him in mind. I want to what the limiting factor on my current team is before I throw someone else into the mix. Thanks!
2011-01-14T05:42:49  <Meatkat> I want to know* what
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2011-01-14T07:34:34  <antimatroid> sigh: another reason why it makes more sense to index grids by row col
2011-01-14T07:35:01  <antimatroid> if you read a grid by x y, then it is going to be in the file in a different format to how it's really being represented
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2011-01-14T09:53:42  <amstan_irssi> antimatroid: too bad if it's no symmetric
2011-01-14T09:53:51  <amstan_irssi> you can't expect everything to be fair
2011-01-14T09:54:00  <amstan_irssi> it'll be random
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2011-01-14T12:14:53  <jmcarthur> antimatroid: my habits are still to go with (x, y), but i agree with you that (row, col) is superior
2011-01-14T12:15:25  <jmcarthur> antimatroid: i've paid the price for going with (x, y) *again* just yesterday in my tron engine, and soon i will have to go through my code and fix it
2011-01-14T12:16:28  <jmcarthur> antimatroid: another reason for (row, col) is that it's more cache coherent when you traverse it in left-to-right, top-to-bottom order. to make (x, y) cache coherent you have to traverse it top-to-bottom, left-to-right
2011-01-14T12:24:20  <jmcarthur> lol http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3RAjfNdZ0hw
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2011-01-14T13:42:05  <antimatroid> jmcarthur: :)
2011-01-14T13:42:30  <antimatroid> amstan_irssi: I was a fan of things being symmetric
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2011-01-14T13:56:28  <jmcarthur> randomness is important for some games, but i think not for this one
2011-01-14T13:57:42  <jmcarthur> i also just don't like spawning food in this game i think. when the food doesn't spawn, the game has distinct phases, but when food does spawn it makes the strategy basically the same throughout the whole game
2011-01-14T14:03:31  <antimatroid> i want randomness with map generators, but i also want symmetric games
2011-01-14T14:03:51  <antimatroid> and one can replenish symmetrically from the start of hte game, but that's iffy
2011-01-14T14:08:22  <janzert> have the rate of food spawning slowly decrease to 0 by say 3/4 of the game time is completed
2011-01-14T14:09:27  <antimatroid> i still think it's fine to just have all food placed at the start
2011-01-14T14:09:44  <antimatroid> with each ant having a view radius you don't know the entire map at the start anyway
2011-01-14T14:10:02  <janzert> having it spawn does mean there is a reason to keep ants back in an area you already cleared though
2011-01-14T14:10:33  <antimatroid> meh, that's not that interesting strategy wise
2011-01-14T14:10:48  <antimatroid> i don't like where the ants game is going
2011-01-14T14:10:50  <janzert> otherwise you should just keep pushing all your ants outward
2011-01-14T14:11:02  <janzert> I think it's better than without though
2011-01-14T14:11:22  <antimatroid> the objective of the game is completely different to the example game i had
2011-01-14T14:11:58  <antimatroid> janzert: i have started making a bot for a new contest though..
2011-01-14T14:12:07  <antimatroid> http://queue.acm.org/icpc/
2011-01-14T14:12:08  <janzert> the snowball one?
2011-01-14T14:12:09  <antimatroid> that's the contest
2011-01-14T14:12:11  <antimatroid> yeah
2011-01-14T14:12:12  * janzert nods
2011-01-14T14:12:32  <janzert> didn't read all the details but looked interesting
2011-01-14T14:13:22  <janzert> there setup is certainly less compute intensive, e.g. you only get a maximum of 6 games per day
2011-01-14T14:13:52  <jmcarthur> i think if we went with McLeopold's hills idea then that would be plenty of incentive to hold your ants back in some areas
2011-01-14T14:13:56  <janzert> and from what I can tell only the players get the results (and only from 3 of them?) so you can't go watch a bunch of matches
2011-01-14T14:14:50  <antimatroid> janzert: i'll be surprised if something like tcp doesn't pop up surely
2011-01-14T14:15:06  <antimatroid> i think they made moving more complicated than was necessary
2011-01-14T14:15:19  <antimatroid> and still haven't fully workout out what's happening with the throwing stuff
2011-01-14T14:15:35  <janzert> :}
2011-01-14T14:16:01  <janzert> is there a forum with discussion?
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2011-01-14T14:18:26  <antimatroid> haven't found one yet :P
2011-01-14T14:18:42  <antimatroid> or an irc, i'm just playing around with code for an ai game
2011-01-14T14:18:45  <antimatroid> it's been far too long
2011-01-14T14:19:00  <janzert> heh
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2011-01-14T14:48:23  <antimatroid> the game could have been more awesome
2011-01-14T14:48:39  <antimatroid> you can only walk if the change in height is less than 2
2011-01-14T14:48:44  <antimatroid> leq
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2011-01-14T14:53:32  <Frontier> Whoever is playing minecraft, please watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b3TUskvZ2Qc&NR=1
2011-01-14T14:53:35  <McLeopold> jmcarthur: with my hills idea, it really needs spawning to work well
2011-01-14T14:54:02  <McLeopold> A bot needs 2 conflicting goals, IMO, to have a fun game.
2011-01-14T14:54:30  <McLeopold> Without spawning, there is no incentive to leaving the hills.
2011-01-14T15:04:58  <amstan_irssi> antimatroid: having food that respawns is interesting
2011-01-14T15:05:21  <amstan_irssi> antimatroid: since it makes it advantageous for players that are expanding their ants, and making sure they cover a larger area
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2011-01-14T20:56:42  <jmcarthur> i want to come up with an awesome but completely stupid-sounding game
2011-01-14T20:57:39  <jmcarthur> like mixing a classic game like go with something completely unrelated like a shooter
2011-01-14T20:58:10  <jmcarthur> i have no idea how it would work
2011-01-14T21:06:00  <dmj111> jmcarthur: so, I reran the trueskill stuff, and looked at the middle of the pack.  it is a mess compared to the official results.
2011-01-14T21:06:00  <dmj111> on one hand, I think it is fine, because considering the sigmas, people are pretty close to where they were.
2011-01-14T21:06:26  <dmj111> but i haven't checked to close, and am not sure what a good measure would be to check it.
2011-01-14T21:06:56  <jmcarthur> Levenshtein distance?
2011-01-14T21:07:22  <jmcarthur> but then we'd just have to decide on a threshold anyway, and i don't know how we'd go about doing that
2011-01-14T21:07:40  <jmcarthur> oh, nevermind anyway
2011-01-14T21:07:51  <dmj111> yeah, with the sigmas, it is hard to tell.
2011-01-14T21:07:58  <jmcarthur> Levenshtein measures insertions, deletions, and substitutions, but not swaps
2011-01-14T21:08:08  <jmcarthur> swaps would be the interesting one i think
2011-01-14T21:08:18  <jmcarthur> hmm
2011-01-14T21:08:23  <jmcarthur> well, not strictly
2011-01-14T21:09:41  <dmj111> i tried tweaking the true skill parameters to get a the actual ratings the same, but that didn't really work out.
2011-01-14T21:10:10  <dmj111> bayeselo uses logistic, and trueskill uses normal, so a I am not sure if that is a factor.
2011-01-14T21:12:28  <jmcarthur> i doubt it would make a huge difference.
2011-01-14T21:14:35  <jmcarthur> Damerau–Levenshtein distance includes transposition apparently
2011-01-14T21:15:21  <jmcarthur> if we wanted to take the time i bet we could try to tweak the trueskill parameters using hill climbing with Damerau–Levenshtein distance. i'm not sure how close we would get
2011-01-14T21:15:40  <jmcarthur> really, it's just hard to make this comparison since trueskill is order-dependent in the matches
2011-01-14T21:16:22  <dmj111> yes, there is that issue too.
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2011-01-14T21:37:42  <antimatroid> for me the most important thing is the final rankings being as accurate as possible
2011-01-14T21:37:50  <antimatroid> i don't care at all how accurate they are before that
2011-01-14T21:38:32  <antimatroid> well, very very barely care, particularly compared to final ranking accuracy
2011-01-14T21:39:34  <dmj111> the places where I see differences, though, appear to be because of the sigmas in the ratings.  I *believe* that the diffs are inside the confidence interval.
2011-01-14T21:40:01  <dmj111> well, not because of the sigmas, but within, or something like that.
2011-01-14T21:40:35  <dmj111> accurate estimates, that is what an old boss used to say...
2011-01-14T21:41:02  <antimatroid> dmj111: did you play with snowballs at all?
2011-01-14T21:41:27  <antimatroid> i have mostly finished setting up my own code, i'll start writing some basic strategies (like a ragebot) soon
2011-01-14T21:41:48  <dmj111> i just watched a live game for the first time :)
2011-01-14T21:42:40  <antimatroid> their starter bot isn't necessarily as stupid as i first thought
2011-01-14T21:43:02  <antimatroid> once my guys move over there, they're in a good position to throw balls from directly behind the walls at you
2011-01-14T21:43:28  <antimatroid> still stupid, just not as stupid as i thought
2011-01-14T21:43:30  <dmj111> ha.  is there a way to run it without the gui?
2011-01-14T21:43:54  <antimatroid> not sure
2011-01-14T21:43:57  <dmj111> I don't see it in the directions.  not useful at the moment, but for later testing, it might be good.
2011-01-14T21:44:18  <antimatroid> worst comes to worst, surely someone will write another engine
2011-01-14T21:45:01  <dmj111> that may be my saving excuse not to take it seriously.
2011-01-14T21:45:27  <antimatroid> it's fun :P
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2011-01-14T21:46:40  <dmj111> i was describing it to a coworker today, and his office mate didn't realize we were talking about a game.  all he heard was me saying something about "if you keep hitting the kid with snowballs, they won't be able to get back up."
2011-01-14T21:52:00  <antimatroid> haha
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2011-01-14T22:08:06  <antimatroid> interesting, the kids can walk through each other diagonally
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2011-01-14T22:41:43  <antimatroid> the collision detection for this game is just messy
2011-01-14T22:41:49  <antimatroid> they can pass through each other diagonally or swap squares, but god forbid they try to pass through to same square to get through to another one
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