2011-02-15T00:03:44 *** SheV0 has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2011-02-15T00:06:29 *** SheV0 has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T00:17:07 *** Mathnerd314 has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-02-15T00:43:20 *** flag has quit IRC (Quit: Lost terminal) 2011-02-15T00:55:28 *** Mada has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T00:56:10 When will the next challenge be? 2011-02-15T00:57:27 *** Mada has quit IRC (Client Quit) 2011-02-15T01:26:04 *** Accoun has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2011-02-15T01:29:08 *** antimatroid1 has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T01:29:49 *** antimatroid has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2011-02-15T01:35:00 *** Prillicy has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-02-15T01:35:04 *** SheV0_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T01:35:51 *** SheV0 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2011-02-15T01:36:01 *** SheV0_ is now known as SheV0 2011-02-15T01:36:04 *** Prillicy has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T01:42:45 ahaha 2011-02-15T01:42:55 the world finals for acm were meant to be in egypt this year 2011-02-15T01:43:02 they're reorganising where it'll be 2011-02-15T01:47:53 *** sigh has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2011-02-15T02:06:34 *** amstan has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2011-02-15T02:20:44 *** antimatroid has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T02:23:04 *** antimatroid1 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2011-02-15T02:39:04 *** delt0r___ has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T02:40:15 *** delt0r_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2011-02-15T02:42:01 *** sigh has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T02:48:03 *** Accoun has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T03:05:45 antimatroid do you have your map generator code somewhere? 2011-02-15T03:11:32 pyro-: http://codepad.org/dLulW3EG 2011-02-15T03:11:34 *** mega1 has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T03:11:39 it's fairly messy, i don't know python at all 2011-02-15T03:14:23 the distance function is wrong too 2011-02-15T03:17:09 thank you 2011-02-15T03:22:32 i have mine generating correct and fair maps. now to try and make it generate interesting maps 2011-02-15T03:23:20 pyro-: are you a student? 2011-02-15T03:23:31 yes 2011-02-15T03:23:52 cs at melb? 2011-02-15T03:24:07 or monash? 2011-02-15T03:24:08 electronic engineering and computer science at RMIT 2011-02-15T03:24:15 .. or :P 2011-02-15T03:25:09 what year? 2011-02-15T03:25:24 starting 3rd 2011-02-15T03:25:31 of 5 2011-02-15T03:25:50 my undergrad was 4, this will be my 5th (honours) 2011-02-15T03:26:20 i did 39 units in those 4 years though to cover 3 majors :\ so close to 5 years worth 2011-02-15T03:26:36 after 5 i'll prolly have to do some work experience stuff as well before im done 2011-02-15T03:27:03 cant remmeber how it works exactly but you cant qualify as professional engineer until youve done a few months under another one 2011-02-15T03:27:25 yeah, i don't have to deal with accreditation for anything i do 2011-02-15T03:27:32 :) 2011-02-15T03:27:45 i dont think your code is any more ugly than mine http://codepad.org/qHOd35IU 2011-02-15T03:27:58 and its only going to get worse as i try to make the maps more cool 2011-02-15T03:28:25 accreditation is bad 2011-02-15T03:28:49 larger maps with more smaller rectangles and you're onto a winer i think 2011-02-15T03:45:44 *** aerique has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T04:00:22 *** Palmik has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T04:21:43 *** boegel has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T04:27:42 *** Frontier has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T04:29:05 Frontier: you're alive :P 2011-02-15T04:29:18 i changed your input back to row,col sorry 2011-02-15T04:29:43 I was visiting my parents to help them with digitalizing their old projector photos 2011-02-15T04:29:53 yeah, i was just joking :) 2011-02-15T04:30:16 antimatroid: Thanks for telling me. I don't really care if it is x,y or row,col. I just need to know :p 2011-02-15T04:31:24 But you are right, people can easily 'disappear' from irc 2011-02-15T04:31:30 @seen j3camero 2011-02-15T04:31:30 Frontier: j3camero was last seen in #aichallenge 4 days, 7 hours, 39 minutes, and 40 seconds ago: I am still stuck on getting the #$%^ user_sadbox to work in non-security mode so I can test the engine. I have to stop working for today. Grrrr. 2011-02-15T04:52:33 he's also mia 2011-02-15T05:11:07 *** Prillicy_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T05:11:13 *** SheV0 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-02-15T05:11:42 *** Prillicy has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2011-02-15T05:11:46 *** Prillicy_ is now known as Prillicy 2011-02-15T05:25:28 Frontier: you're still going to use [x][y] inside your program aren't you? 2011-02-15T05:25:31 i think you're mad :P 2011-02-15T05:27:43 if i find a way to assign ids to the ants i will use x and y, yes :) 2011-02-15T05:28:21 you could assign ids, but you'd need to map locations to them or something like that i think 2011-02-15T05:29:36 ant ids were to not store a grid right? 2011-02-15T05:29:43 otherwise you can just store ant id in the grid 2011-02-15T05:31:02 jmcarthur: when/if you do a haskell starter package, can you try to make it so a beginner haskeller could play around? :P 2011-02-15T05:52:39 *** Frontier has quit IRC (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2011-02-15T06:02:56 *** Prillicy_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T06:04:37 *** Prillicy has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2011-02-15T06:04:50 *** Prillicy_ is now known as Prillicy 2011-02-15T06:14:00 *** TheMacca has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2011-02-15T06:20:42 *** aerique has quit IRC (Quit: ...) 2011-02-15T06:22:43 antimatroid: you can't avoid rounding errors, but you can have consistent rounding. 2011-02-15T06:23:00 in particular sqrt is not like sin and cos etc 2011-02-15T06:23:13 just about every implementation is 2 ulp 2011-02-15T06:23:40 so it should work across langs and compile options... 2011-02-15T06:23:45 But generally rounding errors don't do that... 2011-02-15T06:24:41 its most noticeable with trig functions... 2011-02-15T06:26:31 *** pyro- is now known as DrunkenPanda 2011-02-15T06:29:39 *** boegel has quit IRC (Quit: *poof!*) 2011-02-15T06:31:26 *** Prillicy_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T06:32:20 *** Prillicy has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-02-15T06:32:21 *** Prillicy_ is now known as Prillicy 2011-02-15T06:38:55 delt0r___: you could avoid it if no squares were exactly within +- 0.whatever of the distance 2011-02-15T06:39:57 in this case...a coarse gid, it won't matter.. But i would leave the sqrt out of the start bots all the same 2011-02-15T06:40:05 s/gid/grid 2011-02-15T06:40:19 *** boegel has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T06:41:17 would it work to say we're using the euclidean metric squared? :p 2011-02-15T06:41:37 i know the maths works 2011-02-15T06:41:41 Just leave it... the starter people are not totally stupid 2011-02-15T06:42:00 i am ! 2011-02-15T06:42:03 its obvious that R> x*x+y*y 2011-02-15T06:42:07 is the same as 2011-02-15T06:42:31 sqrt(R)>sqrt(x*x+y*y) 2011-02-15T06:42:59 DrunkenPanda: that perhaps because you are drunk? 2011-02-15T06:43:13 yes its 2011-02-15T06:43:22 i can mistake when not also athough 2011-02-15T06:43:25 *** boegel has quit IRC (Client Quit) 2011-02-15T06:44:42 why did we need siastance? 2011-02-15T06:44:48 why did we need distance? 2011-02-15T06:45:07 how far can you see 2011-02-15T06:45:11 that is a distance 2011-02-15T06:45:13 so you need 2011-02-15T06:45:15 it 2011-02-15T06:45:15 or fight, or spawn 2011-02-15T06:46:20 itts sqrt sum of squares? 2011-02-15T06:46:29 or count the grids? 2011-02-15T06:58:52 *** Prillicy_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T06:58:53 *** Prillicy has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2011-02-15T06:58:56 *** Prillicy_ is now known as Prillicy 2011-02-15T07:00:40 DrunkenPanda: the edges are wrapped, so a bit more complicated 2011-02-15T07:01:33 anyone know how to iterate an array of arrays in php? 2011-02-15T07:01:44 antimatroid have i to put him in my starter package? 2011-02-15T07:02:02 well, yeah probably 2011-02-15T07:02:11 https://github.com/aichallenge/aichallenge/wiki/Ants-Game-Specification 2011-02-15T07:02:13 it's on that page 2011-02-15T07:02:32 thankayou:D 2011-02-15T07:03:25 antimatroid how shalll i name my strtwer files? 2011-02-15T07:03:48 what language are you doing? 2011-02-15T07:04:01 scheme:D 2011-02-15T07:04:11 no idea 2011-02-15T07:04:19 but 2011-02-15T07:04:27 how if i use a language a 2011-02-15T07:04:32 a language 2011-02-15T07:04:33 you know 2011-02-15T07:04:38 how shalkl then i name it? 2011-02-15T07:04:38 no idea :p 2011-02-15T07:04:45 why you askedd! 2011-02-15T07:04:49 what langugaed 2011-02-15T07:04:50 i dunno :P 2011-02-15T07:04:56 i was sitting there chuckling to myself 2011-02-15T07:05:09 antimatroid ist mean to me 2011-02-15T07:05:37 i'll take that as an isnt 2011-02-15T07:05:59 its nice here 2011-02-15T07:06:17 wshy someone is using php :( 2011-02-15T07:06:25 or java 2011-02-15T07:06:32 throw it array and then no wtoruible iteratitng throw arrays :D 2011-02-15T07:06:41 where are you from? 2011-02-15T07:06:57 i told you that already that im from melbourne antimatroid 2011-02-15T07:07:06 wasn't that pyro :\ 2011-02-15T07:07:11 i get confused :P 2011-02-15T07:07:13 i'm! 2011-02-15T07:07:21 I'm using it for something else 2011-02-15T07:07:33 pyro sometimes calleled a purplepanda 2011-02-15T07:07:41 and purplepanda found a beers:D 2011-02-15T07:07:49 cascade i hope? 2011-02-15T07:07:50 for some reason, array iteration is like it doesn't exist 2011-02-15T07:08:15 there was somme cronjnies 2011-02-15T07:08:24 and there was some james boag::D 2011-02-15T07:08:33 cascade draught <3 2011-02-15T07:08:39 when I see a nested array, I"m used to: for i = 0; i < array.length; ++i{for n = 0; n < array[i].length; ++n} but it's as if that doesn't work in php 2011-02-15T07:08:51 ow this is code hurt panda eyes 2011-02-15T07:09:10 cant read a meanign in it 2011-02-15T07:09:25 nothintt work in php Prillicy :D 2011-02-15T07:09:40 how long it ttaked them to get a unicode support and fix thieer memory leaked:D 2011-02-15T07:11:01 nad mucht they clutterewed their namespaceds with trash D: 2011-02-15T07:49:23 *** sigh has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-02-15T07:53:24 *** Prillicy has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-02-15T08:35:01 *** mega1 has quit IRC (Quit: ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)) 2011-02-15T09:40:54 *** boegel has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T10:39:06 *** delt0r_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T10:40:26 *** delt0r___ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-02-15T10:51:18 *** mega1 has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T11:37:11 antimatroid: IMO, the best kind of haskell code for a beginner is idiomatic, taking advantage of the type system and the best libraries to write clear concise code. it may take longer for a beginner to understand, but it's *much* less time to start messing with it. tighter types, as you tend to get with specialized libraries, typically make the space of valid code much more traversable. i'm not 2011-02-15T11:37:13 even sure that there *is* any meaning for "beginner-friendly" in haskell 2011-02-15T11:38:14 after all, if "beginner-friendly" just means writing more imperative code, that means more monadic code, and we know how much that (irrationally) scares beginners... 2011-02-15T11:40:17 *** boegel has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-02-15T11:53:45 *** superflit has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T12:06:08 *** nick has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T12:06:33 *** nick is now known as Guest21168 2011-02-15T12:08:17 *** Guest21168 has quit IRC (Client Quit) 2011-02-15T13:00:33 *** nullkuhl_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T13:08:43 *** dr`away has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-02-15T13:09:54 *** CIA-15 has quit IRC (*.net *.split) 2011-02-15T13:09:54 *** greghaynes has quit IRC (*.net *.split) 2011-02-15T13:09:55 *** javagamer has quit IRC (*.net *.split) 2011-02-15T13:10:01 *** Zepp has quit IRC (*.net *.split) 2011-02-15T13:10:01 *** ChanServ has quit IRC (*.net *.split) 2011-02-15T13:10:01 *** Accoun has quit IRC (*.net *.split) 2011-02-15T13:10:01 *** nullkuhl has quit IRC (*.net *.split) 2011-02-15T13:10:01 *** jmcarthur has quit IRC (*.net *.split) 2011-02-15T13:10:02 *** mega1 has quit IRC (*.net *.split) 2011-02-15T13:10:02 *** Apophis has quit IRC (*.net *.split) 2011-02-15T13:10:02 *** DrunkenPanda has quit IRC (*.net *.split) 2011-02-15T13:12:31 *** CIA-14 has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T13:16:28 *** Accoun has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T13:18:51 *** Zepp has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T13:19:47 *** mega1 has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T13:19:47 *** Apophis has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T13:19:47 *** DrunkenPanda has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T13:20:28 *** javagamer has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T13:22:38 *** mega1` has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T13:23:39 *** ChanServ has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T13:23:39 *** kornbluth.freenode.net sets mode: +o ChanServ 2011-02-15T13:23:57 *** ChanServ has quit IRC (*.net *.split) 2011-02-15T13:25:39 *** mega1 has quit IRC (Write error: Broken pipe) 2011-02-15T13:37:17 *** ChanServ has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T13:37:17 *** kornbluth.freenode.net sets mode: +o ChanServ 2011-02-15T13:37:35 *** Error323 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2011-02-15T13:55:22 *** Error323 has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T14:21:24 *** boegel has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T15:05:18 *** Migi32 has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T15:25:04 *** jmcarthur has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T15:25:08 *** Accoun has quit IRC () 2011-02-15T15:29:58 *** flag has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T15:35:44 *** Accoun has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T15:36:08 *** ZanniqlcKzxkq has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T15:36:31 *** Zannick has quit IRC (Disconnected by services) 2011-02-15T15:37:00 *** ZanniqlcKzxkq is now known as Zannick 2011-02-15T15:37:54 *** acieroid` has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T15:40:29 *** superflit_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T15:40:47 *** superflit has quit IRC (*.net *.split) 2011-02-15T15:40:49 *** acieroid has quit IRC (*.net *.split) 2011-02-15T15:40:49 *** superflit_ is now known as superflit 2011-02-15T15:52:28 *** sigh has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T16:04:58 *** boegel has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) 2011-02-15T16:07:06 *** sigh has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-02-15T16:08:14 *** Frontier has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T16:28:55 *** Apophis_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T16:29:49 *** greghaynes has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T16:33:16 *** pyro- has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T16:38:33 *** Apophis has quit IRC (*.net *.split) 2011-02-15T16:38:34 *** DrunkenPanda has quit IRC (*.net *.split) 2011-02-15T17:09:48 *** sigh has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T17:09:59 *** mceier has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T17:22:48 *** Palmik has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-02-15T17:36:38 *** mega1` has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) 2011-02-15T18:27:42 *** mceier has quit IRC (Quit: leaving) 2011-02-15T18:28:28 *** amstan has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T18:28:28 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o amstan 2011-02-15T18:39:40 *** delt0r___ has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T18:41:02 *** delt0r_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-02-15T18:53:15 *** Migi32 has quit IRC (Quit: boinc) 2011-02-15T19:00:01 *** Prillicy has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T19:05:42 *** McLeopold has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T19:05:54 antimatroid: ping 2011-02-15T19:15:54 *** superflit has quit IRC (Quit: superflit) 2011-02-15T19:33:19 *** Prillicy_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T19:33:36 *** Prillicy has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2011-02-15T19:33:45 *** Prillicy_ is now known as Prillicy 2011-02-15T20:09:51 *** Prillicy_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T20:10:21 *** Prillicy has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-02-15T20:10:31 *** Prillicy_ is now known as Prillicy 2011-02-15T20:21:57 McLeopold: polo 2011-02-15T20:25:42 *** antimatroid1 has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T20:27:54 *** antimatroid has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-02-15T20:30:02 *** amstan has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-02-15T20:30:10 *** Mathnerd314 has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T20:36:02 antimatroid: marco 2011-02-15T20:37:23 Prillicy: karma 2011-02-15T20:40:59 polo 2011-02-15T20:41:17 *** amriedle has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T20:44:50 so, I'm thinking that I want to stick with the input being changes only 2011-02-15T20:45:25 and that means sticking with col, row 2011-02-15T20:45:47 why does that mean col,row? 2011-02-15T20:45:51 and why changes only? 2011-02-15T20:46:15 i think people updating information is complicated enough already without having to work out what information is only implicitly revealed to them 2011-02-15T20:46:59 dude, clear the lists, recreate, it is *not* complicated 2011-02-15T20:47:00 does updating somehow make the code less complex? Honestly it sounds notably more complicated 2011-02-15T20:47:02 i've pretty much decided if that does happen, i'll be constructing my own char map to then get info from anyway, otherwise it's just ridiciulously complicated and messy 2011-02-15T20:47:19 McLeopold: the point is you want to use information from the previous turns 2011-02-15T20:47:33 that is a bot issue, not an engine issue 2011-02-15T20:48:02 i consider it unideal for the engine to pass information implicitly, particularly when it makes things significantly messier for everyone 2011-02-15T20:48:46 either way, that's just my opinion :) 2011-02-15T20:49:15 I will consider passing land entries then 2011-02-15T20:49:48 there's also a heavy risk of errors going unnoticed by the engine 2011-02-15T20:50:05 what type of errors? 2011-02-15T20:50:38 you won't be able to monitor errors if you don't know what you were working with the previous turn 2011-02-15T20:50:57 and if the engine isn't monitoring what is happening, then it can't know 2011-02-15T20:51:02 yes you will, i write the state to a file every turn when debugging 2011-02-15T20:51:25 engine errors or bot errors? 2011-02-15T20:51:30 so then if the entire game is being built out, how is it easier to only pass changes? 2011-02-15T20:51:45 McLeopold: pass me land squares and i'm happy, but i don't think input will be any smaller then 2011-02-15T20:52:11 Okay, I will put in land squares and recalc the average size of input. 2011-02-15T20:52:20 have you fixed the fog of war? 2011-02-15T20:52:21 But so far, it is *way* smaller. 2011-02-15T20:52:22 let's say your engine makes a mistake and places food on water, or worse, an ant 2011-02-15T20:52:51 Prillicy: storing old wall information is not complicated for either option 2011-02-15T20:53:08 The engine will be perfect. :) 2011-02-15T20:53:28 antimatroid1: yes, but I'm not sure if I put it on github yet. 2011-02-15T20:53:30 except if you're storing it, then you have to build it anyway, so why avoid using it? 2011-02-15T20:53:39 i haven't been running your engine anyway 2011-02-15T20:54:01 well, no one is, so, who cares if I fixed it? 2011-02-15T20:54:21 I wrote the java bots today. 2011-02-15T20:54:31 nice 2011-02-15T20:54:33 I may write a java engine as well. 2011-02-15T20:54:40 geez 2011-02-15T20:54:44 I not sure if it will be any faster. 2011-02-15T20:54:53 java is always so class heavy. 2011-02-15T20:55:02 i'll see if i can't get io from processes working faster in c++ later 2011-02-15T20:55:24 Most people will appreciate the java engine anyway 2011-02-15T20:55:47 Prillicy: what languages do you use? 2011-02-15T20:55:54 yeah, but the server should possiby have whatever runs fastest 2011-02-15T20:56:00 to maximise games 2011-02-15T20:56:27 the list is on the website 2011-02-15T20:58:04 now, many of these are used for the same purpose, but I don't like to be incomplete 2011-02-15T20:58:06 html/css/javascript*/ajax*/asp/php* vb/vba*/c++/c#*/interop*/ado sql* java python regex* 2011-02-15T20:58:47 I usually use c# because it's what I use at work 2011-02-15T21:01:38 antimatroid1: can I see you engine code? 2011-02-15T21:02:05 why ask if you don't care 2011-02-15T21:02:07 actually, amstan should put you on the committers list 2011-02-15T21:02:09 you suck! 2011-02-15T21:02:25 because you listed php ;) 2011-02-15T21:03:24 you know you're message boards are in php right? 2011-02-15T21:03:40 and that the anti-spam mod you're using I built (by the way, I"m about to release a new version) 2011-02-15T21:05:22 Irrational php hatred invalidates your argument, sorry 2011-02-15T21:05:46 better luck next time 2011-02-15T21:06:08 I didn't make an argument douche 2011-02-15T21:06:34 :O 2011-02-15T21:06:45 your sarcasm detector is broken btw 2011-02-15T21:07:09 fine, I'm angry at the tv and taking it out on you 2011-02-15T21:07:27 that's ok, I don't like tv either 2011-02-15T21:11:47 McLeopold: my engine code is for my old ants game? 2011-02-15T21:16:26 *** antimatroid has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T21:18:26 *** antimatroid1 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2011-02-15T21:40:46 I'm just reading the debate with transmitting the entire map vs. updates, and I just want to point out that if you guys wanted to play with those 1000x1000 maps you'd be trasmitting 1MBps per user on the tcp server 2011-02-15T21:41:14 The planetwars server had upwards of 40 - 50 people playing at once. 2011-02-15T21:41:53 So you'd either need extremely fast connections, or extremely slow games 2011-02-15T21:42:35 the 1MBps per user is of course assuming 1 second moves too 2011-02-15T21:42:53 but there's also protocol overhead... I doubt it's practical 2011-02-15T21:43:05 1000x1000 maps are too large 2011-02-15T21:43:16 i think 200x200 might be close to the upper bound of what's realistic 2011-02-15T21:43:17 wasn't that what you guys were considering? 2011-02-15T21:44:40 not i 2011-02-15T21:44:53 I swear I read that somewhere 2011-02-15T21:44:57 ideally you want most games to end not from the turn limit, which would need to be insanely high with 1000x1000 2011-02-15T21:45:06 add that to the data per move, i just don't think it's realistic 2011-02-15T21:45:39 I don't think it's realisitc either honestly, but anyway 2011-02-15T21:46:04 What's the average speed of a dsl connection? 2011-02-15T21:46:16 no idea, i'm still on 1500k :P 2011-02-15T21:47:41 bigger is better 2011-02-15T21:48:21 ehh... 2011-02-15T21:48:29 and better is beter 2011-02-15T21:48:39 therefore bigger is awesomer 2011-02-15T21:57:38 flag: If we made 1000x1000 maps, surely we would take the trivial step of running the network protocol over zlib? 2011-02-15T22:00:25 I was thinking you should build more gifs ;) 2011-02-15T22:00:50 ("##########" compresses very well.) 2011-02-15T22:01:55 I suppose we could do that 2011-02-15T22:02:44 I'm not sure whether or not it would compress 10x, or how ever much it would need to be compressed in order to be practical 2011-02-15T22:03:05 And it's still not practical simply because of how many turns the games would take to resolve 2011-02-15T22:03:24 flag: It would compress far, far, far better than 10x. 2011-02-15T22:04:00 Seeing as you'd likely have repeated instances of things like "50 empty spaces in a row" get compressed down to a single byte. 2011-02-15T22:04:31 Yeah, you're right 2011-02-15T22:04:40 I think I know where I got the 1000x1000 thing from though 2011-02-15T22:05:00 I think the discussion was on 200x200 and 1000 moves total, not 1000x1000 maps 2011-02-15T22:05:13 ;math 200*200 2011-02-15T22:05:21 40000 2011-02-15T22:05:28 2*2 + 4 zeros 2011-02-15T22:06:04 *** SheV0 has joined #aichallenge 2011-02-15T22:06:21 I was just waiting for that 2011-02-15T22:06:25 ;math 200*200 2011-02-15T22:06:26 200*200=40000 2011-02-15T22:06:43 that seems like a more reasonable number of moves 2011-02-15T22:07:06 you must account for the number of times people can push forward and be beaten back 2011-02-15T22:07:29 Prillicy: What seems like a reasonable number of moves? 1000 or 40,000? 2011-02-15T22:07:34 the only logical reason to restrict the moves would be if you had a limited number of food items on the map 2011-02-15T22:07:38 40,000 would mean that each game would take days to complete. 2011-02-15T22:07:39 40k 2011-02-15T22:07:48 days? 2011-02-15T22:07:50 are you kidding me 2011-02-15T22:07:54 bull crap 2011-02-15T22:07:56 Prillicy: We allow 1 second per player per turn, assume 2 turns. 80,000 seconds is almost 24 hours. 2011-02-15T22:08:01 86400 seconds/day 2011-02-15T22:08:09 s/2 turns/2 players/ 2011-02-15T22:08:20 incorrect 2011-02-15T22:08:27 players moves are simultaneous 2011-02-15T22:08:37 that's beside the point 2011-02-15T22:08:43 that cuts your time in half 2011-02-15T22:08:45 it's still a rediculous amount of time 2011-02-15T22:08:47 Prillicy: Even if they are simultaneous, 11 hours/game is still ridiculous. 2011-02-15T22:08:51 and that also assumes 1 second per move 2011-02-15T22:08:58 games from past contests were minutes long 2011-02-15T22:09:01 which is what it might take to run, not what it would take to display 2011-02-15T22:09:04 Prillicy: Many players will use the full time. 2011-02-15T22:09:13 i'm thinking time limit will be 2-3 seconds 2011-02-15T22:09:31 the point is what it takes to run, because 100s of games will be run for every bot 2011-02-15T22:09:46 display time is meaningless 2011-02-15T22:10:55 you're going to have a lot of games that end incomplete and the winners will often be determined incorrectly 2011-02-15T22:11:20 Prillicy: Even allowing 5% of games to take half a day each is absurd. 2011-02-15T22:11:41 i think more bots will use their time for this than planet wars 2011-02-15T22:11:55 you very much need to do something tree like for fighting bots with this 2011-02-15T22:12:02 well, i think you do 2011-02-15T22:12:32 are battles being resolved with option 1 or 2? 2011-02-15T22:13:19 or is it undecided? 2011-02-15T22:14:28 undecided 2011-02-15T22:14:48 i'd almost be keen to just work on option 1 anyway if option 2 is used 2011-02-15T22:14:52 it's way more interesting 2011-02-15T22:16:11 I have a feeling it would just end up confusing everyone 2011-02-15T22:16:34 option 2 is more intuitive 2011-02-15T22:18:45 i don't think 2 is more inuitive 2011-02-15T22:18:55 it's more costly to calculate, and the results are far less intuitive 2011-02-15T22:25:44 wouldn't option 1 end 2011-02-15T22:26:34 with senerios where 2 ants meating 1 enemy ant only leaves the 1 enemy ant dieing, as oppose to one of each dieing? 2011-02-15T22:27:03 or 3 ants meeting 2 ants and only the 2 enemy ants dieing? 2011-02-15T22:28:46 flag: Yes, such scenarios are possible with that option. This is one of the reasons Jeff objects to it. And one of the reasons its proponents favour it. It allows bots which know how to leverage it to advance significantly. 2011-02-15T22:29:56 it's not reasonable to have 2 enemy ants in range of 1 and have 1 die from both side 2011-02-15T22:30:37 it's not reasonable to assume that the 2 ants take no damage either, or 3 ants don't take damage from 2 ants 2011-02-15T22:30:45 you either need to have ant ids and kill the earliest made or pick one with some stupid rule that would suck 2011-02-15T22:30:46 I think I misinterpretted option 1 2011-02-15T22:31:05 Prillicy: are you reading the specs page or forums? 2011-02-15T22:31:17 i think the maths explanation on the specs page is clearest 2011-02-15T22:31:19 no 2011-02-15T22:31:47 ... ? 2011-02-15T22:31:52