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2011-02-17T00:25:00  <rebelxt> antimatroid: ping
2011-02-17T00:28:52  <antimatroid> rebelxt: polo
2011-02-17T00:29:20  <rebelxt> antimatroid: were you at Strata a few weeks ago?
2011-02-17T00:29:35  <antimatroid> nope why?
2011-02-17T00:29:38  <antimatroid> what is strata?
2011-02-17T00:30:19  <rebelxt> oops, did i confuse you with someone else? http://www.kaggle.com/anthony.goldbloom/
2011-02-17T00:30:32  <antimatroid> that is not i :P
2011-02-17T00:30:38  <antimatroid> my name is nick ham :P
2011-02-17T00:30:54  <antimatroid> i only just finished undergrad last year
2011-02-17T00:31:39  <rebelxt> cool. are you involved with kaggle? or just participating in some of the contests they run?
2011-02-17T00:32:14  <antimatroid> i signed up there towards the end of pw, but haven't actually participated in anything there
2011-02-17T00:32:34  <rebelxt> sorry, this is funny.. i recall seeing anthony's face in this channel and thought it was you haha..
2011-02-17T00:32:50  <antimatroid> i wonder who he was in here :\
2011-02-17T00:33:15  <rebelxt> there was a big data conference in California a few weeks ago.. where they announced upcoming heritage 3M$ contest
2011-02-17T00:33:45  <rebelxt> http://www.heritagehealthprize.com/
2011-02-17T00:35:38  <rebelxt> going to be more competitive than netflix i bet
2011-02-17T00:38:59  <antimatroid> hmm, i'll take a look at it
2011-02-17T00:41:00  <antimatroid> kaggle has the money, but they're mostly more data mining than ai
2011-02-17T00:41:15  <antimatroid> fun little games are what really spark my interest :\
2011-02-17T00:44:49  <rebelxt> ;-) yeah, netflix contest got ugly at the end ;-) there was too much money at stake
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2011-02-17T01:03:18  <McLeopold> antimatroid: if maps have a variable number of players, and the tcp server ought to try an mix up player matchup and not repeat maps, how should the algorithm be implemented?
2011-02-17T01:09:30  <antimatroid> McLeopold: I was thinking it'd just pick a map then wait for enough players to start the game
2011-02-17T01:09:44  <antimatroid> hopefully if tcp is official, there will be lots of people on there
2011-02-17T01:09:57  <antimatroid> it is only for testing afterall, it doesn't need to be perfect
2011-02-17T01:10:51  <McLeopold> if I pick a map, then I might get people who just played it
2011-02-17T01:11:03  <McLeopold> I want to create a good algo that we can use in the finals.
2011-02-17T01:11:20  <antimatroid> generate a LARGE set of maps
2011-02-17T01:11:36  <McLeopold> I always hated that answer.
2011-02-17T01:11:40  <antimatroid> hmm
2011-02-17T01:11:43  <antimatroid> i shall think about it
2011-02-17T01:12:05  <McLeopold> I'm thinking wait for 30 seconds, see if there is a unique pairing, or get the most unique, then from that pairing pick the least picked map.
2011-02-17T01:12:08  <antimatroid> would it be that bad if players played on the same map?
2011-02-17T01:12:24  <antimatroid> i think it'd be cool to see how the two bots faired against each other with different mutual opponents
2011-02-17T01:12:45  <McLeopold> I'm going to assume that map choice will have a larger affect on rank than we want, and try to account for it.
2011-02-17T01:13:16  <antimatroid> it would be good to see some tests run mixing up players relative starting positions
2011-02-17T01:13:21  <antimatroid> and seeing how wild the results are
2011-02-17T01:13:26  <McLeopold> for tcp, I'd like a few options to be sent, like requesting a map or opponent.
2011-02-17T01:14:01  <McLeopold> that could be another option, connect to tcp and run a round robin on a map with regard to positions
2011-02-17T01:14:09  <McLeopold> then we can gather good fairness data
2011-02-17T01:14:16  <antimatroid> that's presenting many optios
2011-02-17T01:14:23  <antimatroid> some people would just be left hanging
2011-02-17T01:14:28  <McLeopold> yep
2011-02-17T01:14:48  <antimatroid> would "request opponent" need to be met by the enemy?
2011-02-17T01:14:59  <McLeopold> But, we could report why you are left hanging, then the person can choose to pick options more compatable with the others?
2011-02-17T01:15:01  <antimatroid> or you can literally just snag someone for a game on a first come first serve basis?
2011-02-17T01:15:42  <McLeopold> if there was a mutual request, then tcp should respect it
2011-02-17T01:15:54  <McLeopold> dmj111 and I kept trying to time it
2011-02-17T01:15:59  <McLeopold> it was annoying
2011-02-17T01:16:15  <antimatroid> that's what i'm saying, do you both need to put the request in for it to be filled? or both parties?
2011-02-17T01:16:20  <antimatroid> i think both parties would be best
2011-02-17T01:16:24  <McLeopold> yes
2011-02-17T01:17:10  <McLeopold> a single request could try and place the requester in the same game, if the list of players was unique enough, but wouldn't guarantee.
2011-02-17T01:17:26  <McLeopold> we could also have the concept of "rooms"
2011-02-17T01:17:33  <McLeopold> like a request
2011-02-17T01:17:39  <antimatroid> how about this for the map requesting: there is a queue of requested maps, each username can only have one request associated to it at a time and if the queue is non-empty the map is chosen from the queue?
2011-02-17T01:17:53  <antimatroid> that might make it harder for people to be left hanging
2011-02-17T01:18:20  <McLeopold> the room would be like a request, match me up with people that have the same tag, others may join in as well
2011-02-17T01:18:21  <antimatroid> chosen from the front of the queue*
2011-02-17T01:19:40  <McLeopold> I like the map request idea.
2011-02-17T01:20:10  <antimatroid> i'm just trying to work out how to reduce the number of options whilst still allowing people to do stuff
2011-02-17T01:20:14  <McLeopold> It is good to make people play random opponents on random maps, so you get good rankings and everyone gets a chance to play others.
2011-02-17T01:20:16  <antimatroid> otherwise i think it might get a bit messy?
2011-02-17T01:20:49  <McLeopold> But, I want to allow for some options, say if 2 people just want to test duking it out on a certain map.
2011-02-17T01:21:21  <McLeopold> To start with, it will be all random.
2011-02-17T01:21:30  <McLeopold> Cause we need to get this thing going.
2011-02-17T01:22:22  <antimatroid> okay, how about one where people can request to fill info for a whole game, all players must list all their "friends" and the same map
2011-02-17T01:22:33  <antimatroid> then the server will also oblige that request
2011-02-17T01:23:13  <McLeopold> that would be the room concept
2011-02-17T01:23:46  <McLeopold> all friend put the same tag name in, and all tags will participate in the map vote
2011-02-17T01:23:51  <antimatroid> what if it was all public and private rooms?
2011-02-17T01:23:58  <McLeopold> no private rooms
2011-02-17T01:24:22  <McLeopold> and, it's not really a room, just a way to help match you up to people you want to test against.
2011-02-17T01:24:45  <McLeopold> so, it won't be exclusive
2011-02-17T01:24:57  <antimatroid> you have played multiplayed galcon yeah?
2011-02-17T01:24:57  <McLeopold> you can't keep people out
2011-02-17T01:25:01  <McLeopold> no
2011-02-17T01:25:17  <McLeopold> I only played the free version on my iPhone so I could analyze the game.
2011-02-17T01:25:31  <antimatroid> multiplayer is free Oo
2011-02-17T01:25:43  <McLeopold> on the website?
2011-02-17T01:25:46  <antimatroid> yeah
2011-02-17T01:25:51  <McLeopold> hmm...
2011-02-17T01:25:55  <antimatroid> i wouldn't pay to play a game
2011-02-17T01:26:27  <antimatroid> (i don't pirate them either, i just don't play them)
2011-02-17T01:26:52  <McLeopold> where's the link
2011-02-17T01:26:59  <antimatroid> http://www.galcon.com/flash/
2011-02-17T01:27:07  <antimatroid> check out that room structure
2011-02-17T01:28:04  <antimatroid> there could be x amounts of public rooms people could go into, then people could create other rooms that lasted say x time after the last game in there, so people could create a room and fill it with friends as much as they liked
2011-02-17T01:28:08  <McLeopold> so, 10 rooms only?
2011-02-17T01:28:10  <antimatroid> then using the request idea, people can pick maps
2011-02-17T01:28:35  <McLeopold> wait, that's servers...
2011-02-17T01:28:40  <McLeopold> ?
2011-02-17T01:28:44  <antimatroid> ?
2011-02-17T01:28:53  <McLeopold> okay, we need to play against each other
2011-02-17T01:28:58  <McLeopold> what server are you on
2011-02-17T01:28:58  <antimatroid> room?
2011-02-17T01:29:08  <antimatroid> i'm in the available servers page
2011-02-17T01:29:18  <McLeopold> Nu-1?
2011-02-17T01:29:24  <antimatroid> sure
2011-02-17T01:29:51  <antimatroid> lag
2011-02-17T01:30:18  <antimatroid> it normally works fine i swear
2011-02-17T01:32:04  <antimatroid> i'm getting pantsed
2011-02-17T01:39:23  <McLeopold> no, I'm getting pantsed
2011-02-17T01:39:33  <antimatroid> it's harder when there's like 8 people
2011-02-17T01:41:11  <McLeopold> dang, it is hard
2011-02-17T01:45:37  <antimatroid> come on :P
2011-02-17T01:47:26  <McLeopold> I'm doing better
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2011-02-17T01:54:56  <McLeopold> this is giving me ideas for ants
2011-02-17T01:58:11  <antimatroid> what do you mean?
2011-02-17T01:58:18  <antimatroid> i got my troll bot idea from here
2011-02-17T01:58:27  <antimatroid> i often just kamakazee the strongest player
2011-02-17T02:00:13  <McLeopold> what are you gonna do now?
2011-02-17T02:01:29  <antimatroid> i've got almost 2000 on that small one
2011-02-17T02:01:35  <antimatroid> ready?
2011-02-17T02:01:39  <McLeopold> yes!
2011-02-17T02:01:53  <McLeopold> let's hope yellow fell asleep
2011-02-17T02:02:32  <McLeopold> there he goes
2011-02-17T02:02:43  <McLeopold> that was a lose-lose-lose game
2011-02-17T02:02:50  <McLeopold> or, lose-lose-win
2011-02-17T02:02:59  <antimatroid> yeah, often it's most patient wins
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2011-02-17T03:17:01  <antimatroid> McLeopold: well that was a good waste of time :P
2011-02-17T03:17:10  <McLeopold> yea
2011-02-17T03:17:16  <McLeopold> so much for the engine
2011-02-17T03:17:59  <McLeopold> I've got my engine really fast now
2011-02-17T03:18:17  <McLeopold> I figured out something that was slowing it down, and causing my bots to timeout
2011-02-17T03:18:41  <McLeopold> I'm thinking the official servers had the same problem last contest.
2011-02-17T03:21:16  <antimatroid> what was the issue?
2011-02-17T03:22:15  <antimatroid> i could survive with your input (although i'd really love for it to be row,col), but i would be directly creating my own char map with the info upon reading to determine information from
2011-02-17T03:23:18  <McLeopold> I'm running tests right now to compare inputs.
2011-02-17T03:23:43  <McLeopold> The issue was, there was a while loop waiting for input, but it would only read 1 line at a time from a bot.
2011-02-17T03:23:49  <antimatroid> sigh: you missed out on galcon fun
2011-02-17T03:24:12  <McLeopold> so, if the bot had too many orders, it would timeout if close to the limit, even though it send it time.
2011-02-17T03:24:27  <antimatroid> ah yeah fair enough
2011-02-17T03:24:41  <antimatroid> i explicitly didn't send all my moves right at the end in case it caused my bot to take too long
2011-02-17T03:25:23  <antimatroid> and i had to clear my game tree at the start of each turn, otherwise it was too variable how long it would take
2011-02-17T03:25:38  <sigh> antimatroid: what happened?
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2011-02-17T03:28:44  <antimatroid> me and mcleopold playing multiplayer galcon against people
2011-02-17T03:29:28  <sigh> sounds fun :)
2011-02-17T03:29:49  <sigh> I've been busy lately though :(
2011-02-17T03:30:29  <antimatroid> i'm going to be busy again as of monday
2011-02-17T03:31:04  <sigh> uni doesn't really count as very busy :P
2011-02-17T03:36:26  <antimatroid> yes it does :P
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2011-02-17T16:31:58  <flag> Have we made a decision on the protocol for communicating with the tourney engine? I noticed java bots have been added
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2011-02-17T20:30:31  <Whaeth> Hey. Anyone knows of a similar challange running on now, or starting in the near future?
2011-02-17T20:32:32  <antimatroid> Whaeth another one just ended
2011-02-17T20:32:40  <antimatroid> there'll hopefully be another one here in a month or two
2011-02-17T20:32:59  <Whaeth> could you give me a link to that
2011-02-17T20:33:04  <Whaeth> the one that just ended
2011-02-17T20:33:14  <antimatroid> http://queue.acm.org/icpc/
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2011-02-17T20:33:46  <antimatroid> i was not a fan of their collision system
2011-02-17T20:33:50  <antimatroid> it was intuitively retarded
2011-02-17T20:34:34  <Whaeth> thank you
2011-02-17T20:34:37  <Whaeth> hehe
2011-02-17T20:35:16  <Whaeth> yeah i'd prefer to compete in "simpler" environments
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2011-02-17T20:35:37  <Whaeth> the waterloo competitions looked awesome
2011-02-17T20:36:25  <Whaeth> oh it's simple enough
2011-02-17T20:36:45  <Whaeth> i thought you meant they messed up the collision detection
2011-02-17T20:37:08  <Whaeth> but this game isn't like that :)
2011-02-17T20:37:51  <McLeopold> antimatroid: I've decided.  Bot communication will be changes only.
2011-02-17T20:37:58  <McLeopold> It's smaller anyway you slice it.
2011-02-17T20:38:12  <McLeopold> I've tried maps of 256x256 and 27x27.
2011-02-17T20:38:54  <McLeopold> I haven't found a case there sending the map is smaller.  And it is always around a 10x factor.
2011-02-17T20:39:11  <McLeopold> Zipping the text, changes are around 2x smaller.
2011-02-17T20:39:39  <McLeopold> Now, I just need to switch row/col/row...
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2011-02-17T20:53:42  <antimatroid> McLeopold: okay sure
2011-02-17T20:53:56  <antimatroid> thanks for switching to row,col, it makes my life that much easier
2011-02-17T20:54:23  <antimatroid> Whaeth: their collision resolution works, but it's extremely retarded
2011-02-17T21:04:46  <flag> Also, please update the wiki with the new protocol
2011-02-17T21:04:59  <flag> If you get the chance
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2011-02-17T21:08:31  <antimatroid> i'll do that later on
2011-02-17T21:08:36  <antimatroid> i need to go out for a bit soon though
2011-02-17T21:28:32  <McLeopold> flag: I can give you sample output
2011-02-17T21:30:20  <flag> McLeopold: Sure that should be enough
2011-02-17T21:52:54  <McLeopold> flag: http://pastebin.com/tfh2W0mK <-- sample replay file
2011-02-17T21:53:28  <McLeopold> Frontier: ^^ you should look at it too
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2011-02-17T22:16:57  <flag> McLeopold: Thanks
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2011-02-17T23:00:29  <McLeopold> antimatroid: I know it's a small nitpick, but could we go with attackradius2 instead of battleradius2?
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