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2011-02-18T00:51:08  <antimatroid> McLeopold: sure
2011-02-18T00:54:30  <McLeopold> ok
2011-02-18T00:58:16  <antimatroid> where are you at?
2011-02-18T00:58:29  <antimatroid> at you still just playing around with the engine or actually working on tcp stuff?
2011-02-18T00:58:36  <antimatroid> i haven't really done anything for a couple of days
2011-02-18T01:05:35  <McLeopold> fine tuning the engine
2011-02-18T01:06:06  <McLeopold> find tuning input/output as well
2011-02-18T01:06:32  <McLeopold> I want to make the engine be able to do replays and help with debugging
2011-02-18T01:06:53  <McLeopold> So, if you play a game, you can record everything, then run the game again from the captured input/output
2011-02-18T01:07:08  <McLeopold> This would be really nice on tcp.
2011-02-18T01:07:27  <McLeopold> I also wrote a javascript visualizer.
2011-02-18T01:07:42  <McLeopold> so no more png files
2011-02-18T01:09:00  <antimatroid> nice
2011-02-18T01:10:36  <McLeopold> did you see the replay file?
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2011-02-18T01:22:39  <antimatroid> yeah?
2011-02-18T01:22:44  <antimatroid> not much i can do with it :P
2011-02-18T01:27:50  <McLeopold> haven't switch the row/col yet
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2011-02-18T02:15:08  <antimatroid> McLeopold: what are the labels for possible input lines?
2011-02-18T02:15:39  <McLeopold> m, a, f, d, l, w
2011-02-18T02:15:50  <McLeopold> plus the named variables
2011-02-18T02:16:01  <antimatroid> okay sure
2011-02-18T02:16:13  <antimatroid> are we sending information about "dead food"?
2011-02-18T02:16:29  <McLeopold> no
2011-02-18T02:16:31  <antimatroid> wait, what's m?
2011-02-18T02:16:36  <McLeopold> map info
2011-02-18T02:16:45  <antimatroid> is that just for the visualiser?
2011-02-18T02:16:46  <McLeopold> used by the map files and replay files
2011-02-18T02:16:59  <antimatroid> ah k sure, i was just thinking about input for bots
2011-02-18T02:17:10  <McLeopold> they'll never get m
2011-02-18T02:17:16  <McLeopold> oh, and the send 'o"
2011-02-18T02:17:17  <antimatroid> yep
2011-02-18T02:17:55  <antimatroid> okay, i'll  update the specs page in a bit
2011-02-18T02:18:05  <McLeopold> galcom?
2011-02-18T02:18:13  <antimatroid> channel?
2011-02-18T02:18:25  <McLeopold> uh, you mean room?
2011-02-18T02:18:31  <antimatroid> same thing :P
2011-02-18T02:18:41  <antimatroid> epsilon1
2011-02-18T02:18:57  <antimatroid> what colour are you?
2011-02-18T02:18:59  <McLeopold> red
2011-02-18T02:19:18  <McLeopold> you
2011-02-18T02:19:24  <antimatroid> blue
2011-02-18T02:23:22  <McLeopold> something is wrong with us
2011-02-18T02:26:25  <antimatroid> why?
2011-02-18T02:26:36  <antimatroid> i've played a lot of galcon in the last few weeks
2011-02-18T02:26:41  <antimatroid> i blame jeff
2011-02-18T02:26:50  <McLeopold> so, it makes me think of ants
2011-02-18T02:27:05  <McLeopold> if the battle resolution isn't broken, this game is not going to have a clear winner
2011-02-18T02:28:12  <McLeopold> go for white
2011-02-18T02:28:34  <antimatroid> what do you mean no clear winner?
2011-02-18T02:28:41  <antimatroid> are you referring to campers doing well?
2011-02-18T02:28:47  <McLeopold> maybe
2011-02-18T02:28:47  <antimatroid> that's just part of a good strategy with n players
2011-02-18T02:28:58  <McLeopold> the scoring discourages it
2011-02-18T02:29:08  <McLeopold> and, the food spawning will prevent buildup
2011-02-18T02:29:57  <antimatroid> the fog of war makes it a lot harder too
2011-02-18T02:30:00  <McLeopold> if someone can get spy ants into a border to see strength, then they can attack at the right time
2011-02-18T02:30:11  <antimatroid> and you want to maximise your position in each game
2011-02-18T02:30:17  <antimatroid> not just win
2011-02-18T02:30:20  <McLeopold> or, if bots can work together, they can ensure a top 2 finish
2011-02-18T02:30:23  <antimatroid> i think it'll still work alright
2011-02-18T02:30:47  <McLeopold> it will, but it won't be best ai
2011-02-18T02:31:07  <antimatroid> i still think the better ai's will prevail
2011-02-18T02:31:13  <McLeopold> you'll have to be good enough to compete, but you'll have to play a rock/paper/sissors game
2011-02-18T02:31:22  <antimatroid> i'm very against games where the rankings are very fuzzy
2011-02-18T02:31:22  <McLeopold> or a waiting game
2011-02-18T02:31:33  <McLeopold> I think this will be very fuzzy
2011-02-18T02:31:56  <antimatroid> there was fuzzyness with planet wars, but i still think the rankings were pretty good
2011-02-18T02:32:07  <McLeopold> planets wars wasn't that fuzzy
2011-02-18T02:32:16  <McLeopold> I think this will be way worse
2011-02-18T02:32:24  <McLeopold> it all depends on the scoring system.
2011-02-18T02:32:49  <McLeopold> scoring where you rank by survival turn would be horribly fuzzy
2011-02-18T02:32:53  <antimatroid> may i point out option 1 will give better ai better scores :P
2011-02-18T02:32:58  <McLeopold> yes
2011-02-18T02:33:03  <McLeopold> no need
2011-02-18T02:33:09  <McLeopold> I'm on your side.
2011-02-18T02:33:15  <antimatroid> i know, just making the point
2011-02-18T02:33:37  <antimatroid> i was only kidding when pointing out jeff's absense for like a day, but it's getting near a week now :\
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2011-02-18T02:34:08  <McLeopold> I half expect him to turn on the new contest and it is something completely different and new. :)
2011-02-18T02:34:26  <McLeopold> I think he's coding something else in a basement somewhere
2011-02-18T02:34:56  <antimatroid> hehe
2011-02-18T02:35:17  <McLeopold> he thought he was going to crank out ants 2 weekends ago
2011-02-18T02:35:46  <McLeopold> The more I work on this, the more I realize it is hard to top planet wars.  It was so simple to code, yet had so much depth.
2011-02-18T02:36:12  <McLeopold> I keep hoping I'll come across another like it.  Ants isn't it.
2011-02-18T02:36:17  <antimatroid> i don't think planet wars was necessarily an amazing game for an ai contest
2011-02-18T02:36:25  <antimatroid> it was however an amazing problem to think about and play around with
2011-02-18T02:36:45  <antimatroid> it had a very big brick wall for making any noticable improvements that would have discouraged a lot of people
2011-02-18T02:38:01  <antimatroid> i think your worries about ants giving good results is an issue for any n-player game
2011-02-18T02:38:11  <McLeopold> yes
2011-02-18T02:38:23  <antimatroid> i'm quite surprised jeff is in favour of n-players when he's so worried about battle option 1 being too hard for begineers
2011-02-18T02:38:25  <McLeopold> even planetwars n-player would be tough
2011-02-18T02:38:44  <antimatroid> it's really hard to study n-player games, you need to start worrying about coalitions etc.
2011-02-18T02:40:04  <McLeopold> coalitions will rule in ants
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2011-02-18T02:40:28  <antimatroid> they will rule any game involving cooperation
2011-02-18T02:40:39  <antimatroid> and what's the point of an n-player game if you're not emphasising that?
2011-02-18T02:40:53  <antimatroid> you could have a zero sum n-player game
2011-02-18T02:40:53  <McLeopold> ...
2011-02-18T02:40:57  <McLeopold> ?
2011-02-18T02:41:02  <antimatroid> so your gain is someone elses loss
2011-02-18T02:41:11  <McLeopold> that's what this is?
2011-02-18T02:41:19  <McLeopold> except for the food spawn?
2011-02-18T02:41:23  <antimatroid> no, you can work together to take out a common enemy ant?
2011-02-18T02:41:55  <McLeopold> so, how would it be n-player zero sum?
2011-02-18T02:43:20  <antimatroid> not sure for this
2011-02-18T02:43:31  <antimatroid> just noting that'd make cooperation less of an issue i think
2011-02-18T02:43:32  <McLeopold> okay, any game?
2011-02-18T02:44:18  <antimatroid> the payoff for anything should sum to 0 (or any constant value)
2011-02-18T02:45:59  <McLeopold> I'm out.
2011-02-18T02:46:31  <McLeopold> so, working together makes it not zero sum?
2011-02-18T02:47:06  <antimatroid> hmm, i'm still not sure it'd properly eliminate cooperation
2011-02-18T02:47:25  <McLeopold> I just want to understand n-player 0-sum first
2011-02-18T02:47:34  <antimatroid> say you have a tree?
2011-02-18T02:47:44  <antimatroid> the payoffs at each terminal node all sum to 0
2011-02-18T02:47:53  <antimatroid> i think that's the correct definition
2011-02-18T02:50:11  <McLeopold> so, no food  spawn, ants get switched to sides
2011-02-18T02:50:33  <antimatroid> wait what?
2011-02-18T02:50:35  <antimatroid> team game?
2011-02-18T02:50:39  <McLeopold> n-player zero-sum
2011-02-18T02:50:49  <McLeopold> constant number of ants
2011-02-18T02:50:53  <antimatroid> i'm lost
2011-02-18T02:51:03  <McLeopold> if i take your ant, +1 for me, -1 for you
2011-02-18T02:51:17  <McLeopold> if score is number of ants
2011-02-18T02:51:33  <antimatroid> ah yeah, it gets tricky
2011-02-18T02:51:58  <antimatroid> you could say it's +0.5 to player with ant and -0.5 to the other player
2011-02-18T02:52:10  <McLeopold> ok
2011-02-18T02:52:11  <antimatroid> it's probably not quite right, but would allow one to use say minimax
2011-02-18T02:53:45  <McLeopold> I wonder if bots should play small round-robins, and be allowed to learn
2011-02-18T02:53:51  <McLeopold> that would be fun
2011-02-18T02:53:57  <antimatroid> that's a whole other game
2011-02-18T02:54:23  <McLeopold> coalitions are a whole other game too
2011-02-18T02:54:40  <antimatroid> yes, which i pointed out numerous times when people talked about n-player games
2011-02-18T02:54:51  <antimatroid> particularly when people said they may use nplayer games in pw
2011-02-18T02:54:53  <McLeopold> I'm going to invent a "truce dance" for my ants
2011-02-18T02:55:06  <antimatroid> i'll be intent with troll bot in tcp
2011-02-18T02:55:25  <antimatroid> be my normal bot, but after a while, start kamakazeeing people
2011-02-18T02:55:56  <McLeopold> tcp will need to ensure connections are unique enough
2011-02-18T02:56:10  <McLeopold> to prevent "clones"
2011-02-18T02:56:11  <antimatroid> nah, let people do what they want on the unofficial server
2011-02-18T02:56:16  <antimatroid> it'll be fun
2011-02-18T02:56:34  <McLeopold> I'd prefer a safe testing ground with no funny business
2011-02-18T02:56:59  <antimatroid> so no troll bot then? D:
2011-02-18T02:57:10  <McLeopold> Sure, troll bot.  1 at a time.
2011-02-18T02:57:58  <antimatroid> hmmm does the food score not just prolong the game?
2011-02-18T02:58:01  <McLeopold> so, I think I can get 4 players with equal access to each other on a map
2011-02-18T02:58:14  <antimatroid> what if there was no food score, you'd still want to maximise the number of enemy ants you "killed"
2011-02-18T02:58:23  <antimatroid> McLeopold: how? i can only get 3
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2011-02-18T02:59:21  <McLeopold> A hex grid can be represented by rectangles
2011-02-18T02:59:21  <antimatroid> actually, that could be an argument for hex grids
2011-02-18T02:59:37  <antimatroid> ahhh :P
2011-02-18T02:59:40  <McLeopold> you just have to have the right width/height ratio
2011-02-18T02:59:48  <antimatroid> i was thinking our normal square grids
2011-02-18T02:59:56  <McLeopold> I looked at your code
2011-02-18T03:00:09  <McLeopold> I was confounded that the player grids were square
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2011-02-18T03:00:25  <antimatroid> why?
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2011-02-18T03:00:51  <McLeopold> I just didn't think you would have made that restriction.
2011-02-18T03:01:07  <antimatroid> i threw that thing together :P
2011-02-18T03:01:10  <McLeopold> Also, I thought of a faster way to check valid places for walls.
2011-02-18T03:01:34  <antimatroid> what's the better wall check?
2011-02-18T03:01:36  <McLeopold> only run the check when 2 of the 4 liberties are blocked
2011-02-18T03:01:51  <antimatroid> say what?
2011-02-18T03:01:52  <McLeopold> then, path find from the other 2
2011-02-18T03:02:05  <McLeopold> I'm using go lingo
2011-02-18T03:02:34  <McLeopold> or, maintain a list of spots there there are only 2 liberties
2011-02-18T03:03:07  <McLeopold> if placing a spot there disconnects the land tiles, which is the same as a capture in go, then disallow the spot
2011-02-18T03:03:41  <McLeopold> or, you can path find from the 2 blocked spots, which may be faster
2011-02-18T03:04:06  <McLeopold> so, your proving that the placed wall just formed a ring
2011-02-18T03:04:22  <McLeopold> but you have to prove there is something inside the ring too
2011-02-18T03:04:34  <McLeopold> but you could store that info
2011-02-18T03:04:39  <antimatroid> yeah, i was thinking either find a ring, or you could find your neighbours right and below
2011-02-18T03:04:49  <antimatroid> if you can find them, then they can also find those neighbours
2011-02-18T03:04:53  <antimatroid> meaning you can find all neighbours
2011-02-18T03:05:00  <McLeopold> make this game is more fun the planet wars
2011-02-18T03:05:19  <antimatroid> there are also a lot of neat little algorithms for path finding with this
2011-02-18T03:05:25  <antimatroid> it's a sweat little game
2011-02-18T03:05:29  <antimatroid> sweet* :P
2011-02-18T03:05:55  <McLeopold> ok, bed time, cya
2011-02-18T03:06:55  <antimatroid> night
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2011-02-18T06:16:36  <Frontier> @repo
2011-02-18T06:16:37  <contestbot> Frontier: repo = https://github.com/aichallenge/aichallenge
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2011-02-18T19:55:29  <McLeopold> amstan: ping
2011-02-18T19:55:42  <amstan> McLeopold: pong
2011-02-18T19:55:53  <McLeopold> hey, have you talked to jeff lately?
2011-02-18T19:55:59  <amstan> nope, sorry
2011-02-18T19:56:03  <McLeopold> hmm ok
2011-02-18T19:56:11  <McLeopold> I'm really close to having an engine ready
2011-02-18T19:56:27  <McLeopold> we have the specs done enough to be "finallish"
2011-02-18T19:56:49  <McLeopold> How much should be ready before we turn on the next contest?
2011-02-18T19:57:12  <McLeopold> amstan: Am I talking to the right guy?
2011-02-18T19:57:13  <amstan> i have no idea
2011-02-18T19:57:34  <amstan> well.. idk, it's up to jeff, i try to be involved
2011-02-18T19:57:36  <amstan> but..
2011-02-18T19:57:44  <amstan> it seems like he's not that interested
2011-02-18T19:57:45  <McLeopold> have you done anything with the web site?
2011-02-18T19:58:21  <amstan> not really, someone offered to do a redesign, but they got busy
2011-02-18T19:59:04  <McLeopold> is there a way to send jeff a message that he would respond to?
2011-02-18T19:59:16  <amstan> email him?
2011-02-18T19:59:27  <amstan> jeff@ourwebsite
2011-02-18T19:59:44  <McLeopold> I've tried that before...
2011-02-18T19:59:47  <McLeopold> :(
2011-02-18T19:59:55  <amstan> and?
2011-02-18T20:00:00  <McLeopold> nothing
2011-02-18T20:00:03  <amstan> ...
2011-02-18T20:00:14  <amstan> so i'm equally baffled
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2011-02-18T20:01:16  <McLeopold> do you live in the same city?
2011-02-18T20:01:23  <McLeopold> I thought you guys talked outside of irc
2011-02-18T20:01:26  <amstan> nope, not anymore
2011-02-18T20:01:30  <McLeopold> oh
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2011-02-18T20:02:07  <amstan> nullkuhl: any news on a design?
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2011-02-18T20:10:36  <nullkuhl> amstan: hey, yeah
2011-02-18T20:10:59  <McLeopold> nice, you got links for show and tell?
2011-02-18T20:11:00  <nullkuhl> amstan: sorry i was moving in the past few days, finally settled down, will finish it today and post it
2011-02-18T20:11:18  <nullkuhl> is the content ready already?
2011-02-18T20:11:44  <amstan> nullkuhl: we can worry about content, i just wanted a design
2011-02-18T20:12:52  <nullkuhl> allright you will see it soon :)
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2011-02-18T20:28:23  <flag> McLeopold: the sample output from the game engine you gave me yesterday feeds in the map on the first turn in the [.%*?abcABC] format (and updates on the other turns), while your engine seems to give the first turn as "L number number" (updates)
2011-02-18T20:28:42  <flag> McLeopold: which one are you planning on using?
2011-02-18T20:32:16  <CIA-14> aichallenge: McLeopold epsilon * r8722ef4 / (12 files in 4 dirs): Added javascript visualizer that reads replay file. Furthur work on bots and protocols. - http://bit.ly/i4hc36
2011-02-18T20:32:26  <McLeopold> flag: that was a sample replay file
2011-02-18T20:32:38  <McLeopold> flag: I think you wanted what the bots would get?
2011-02-18T20:33:26  <flag> yeah, that's what I meant, because the wiki still has the old bot input and I'm re-writing my bot
2011-02-18T20:33:31  <McLeopold> 'M' map lines are for map files and visualizer only.  Bots will only get 'L' and 'W' updates
2011-02-18T20:33:31  <flag> sorry if I wasn't clear
2011-02-18T20:33:37  <McLeopold> okay, hold on...
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2011-02-18T20:39:23  <McLeopold> flag: I'd give you another example, but I just broke everything...
2011-02-18T20:40:00  <flag> Okay, take your time :)
2011-02-18T20:40:38  <McLeopold> hmm... It won't be tonight.
2011-02-18T20:41:19  <McLeopold> also, the example had col/row, which will be switched to row/col
2011-02-18T20:42:07  <antimatroid1> McLeopold: I was going to ask about potentially never sending L lines and always W lines?
2011-02-18T20:42:26  <antimatroid1> that way it can be said that you will see anything that isn't land and visible each turn
2011-02-18T20:42:43  <flag> McLeopold: So are you going to be rewritting your bots again too or are those up to date?
2011-02-18T20:45:38  <antimatroid1> it would also mean not having to worry about what people have/haven't seen yet
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2011-02-18T22:29:09  <McLeopold> antimatroid1: that would mean you'd have to calculate your view distance
2011-02-18T22:29:26  <McLeopold> it's easier to just clear ants, dead and food, and then place stuff
2011-02-18T22:29:46  <McLeopold> I'm also sending 'L' lines for stuff that disappears, so it is really easy now.
2011-02-18T22:30:04  <McLeopold> flag: bots need to be rewritten, they are not up to date
2011-02-18T22:35:19  <antimatroid1> McLeopold: you mean food by stuff that disappears yeah?
2011-02-18T22:35:48  <McLeopold> anything that wasn't land, that is now land, gets an 'L' line
2011-02-18T22:36:27  <antimatroid1> what if you walk out of view of a square that contained an enemy ant but that ant moved as you went out of view of it into view of you etc?
2011-02-18T22:36:32  <antimatroid1> that sounds really messy
2011-02-18T22:36:57  <McLeopold> we only need to give them enough so that they know where stuff is this turn
2011-02-18T22:37:06  <McLeopold> plus dead ant info
2011-02-18T22:37:11  <McLeopold> that's it
2011-02-18T22:38:35  <antimatroid1> "anything that wasn't land, that is now land, gets an 'L' line"
2011-02-18T22:38:38  <antimatroid1> now i'm confused
2011-02-18T22:39:53  <McLeopold> I could not do that, then you have to clear your list
2011-02-18T22:43:27  <antimatroid1> McLeopold: I think it would be quite easy if you just sent info for every non-land visible square each turn
2011-02-18T22:43:55  <antimatroid1> it means no storing who needs to see what, reduces input, and is fairly easy to generate the char map one would have otherwise gotten with that information
2011-02-18T22:44:08  <antimatroid1> which i think anyone is going to want to do if trying to store information about where ants used to be
2011-02-18T22:44:17  <McLeopold> that means a bot has to use the vision algo
2011-02-18T22:44:26  <antimatroid1> not a naive one
2011-02-18T22:44:34  <antimatroid1> jsut assume everything is land at the start of each turn
2011-02-18T22:45:02  <antimatroid1> and you need to use the vision algorithm now anyway if you want to track where you ahd seen enemy ants
2011-02-18T22:45:10  <antimatroid1> and work out which of your ants are now dead and not seeable etc.
2011-02-18T22:45:15  <antimatroid1> back soon, going to the shop
2011-02-18T22:50:15  <McLeopold> I'd prefer the bot code be very simple, so I'd rather have them just clear the lists.
2011-02-18T22:50:52  <McLeopold> So, I can add the extra 'L' lines, but it would be less input if I didn't.
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