2011-02-20T00:00:53  <antimatroid> i'm trying to work out the rule of what battle/spawn radiuses must be relative to each other
2011-02-20T00:02:16  <antimatroid> i think it's just when spawnradius is 1 that an issue arises
2011-02-20T00:02:26  <antimatroid> like hebbie said :P
2011-02-20T00:02:38  <flag> Is the spawnradius currently 1?
2011-02-20T00:03:19  <flag> Doesn't look like it
2011-02-20T00:03:42  <antimatroid> no, but my ideal parameters were spawnr = 1, attackr = rt(5)
2011-02-20T00:04:16  <flag> Ah
2011-02-20T00:04:26  <flag> Is the output row, col or col, row?
2011-02-20T00:04:42  <antimatroid> row col
2011-02-20T00:04:50  <flag> It was col, row before wasn't it?
2011-02-20T00:04:50  <antimatroid> everything has gone to row col finally thankgod
2011-02-20T00:04:54  <antimatroid> yes
2011-02-20T00:04:54  <flag> Okay
2011-02-20T00:05:06  <antimatroid> everything is consistent and never needs transposing if one uses row col
2011-02-20T00:05:15  <antimatroid> it amazes me for that reason alone that anyone would ever use x y
2011-02-20T00:08:25  <flag> Yay, crappy C bot has successfully been ported to volatile spec
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2011-02-20T11:33:51  <McLeopold> antimatroid: I haven't touched the food spawn code.  I just haven't made it to that section yet.
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2011-02-20T11:36:00  <antimatroid1> McLeopold: i don't think you're telling people what team an ant has died from?
2011-02-20T11:36:36  <McLeopold> nope
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2011-02-20T11:37:37  <McLeopold> I could put a list of owners at the end of the line?
2011-02-20T11:38:28  <antimatroid1> just print a line with the player after the row
2011-02-20T11:38:41  <antimatroid1> if enemy ants collide, print more than one line
2011-02-20T11:39:20  <McLeopold> ok
2011-02-20T11:39:33  <antimatroid1> i think you should scrap the whole land square information stuff, then just send info for all currently visible ants (alive or just dead) and food squares, then any wall squares the first time you see them. I think the input might actually be less then anyway, be easier for the engine to actually deal with, easier to explain to people and easier to deal with
2011-02-20T11:39:59  <McLeopold> a lot less, but then bots need to calc vision themselves
2011-02-20T11:40:07  <antimatroid1> they already have to
2011-02-20T11:40:21  <McLeopold> no they don't
2011-02-20T11:40:26  <McLeopold> my sample bots don't
2011-02-20T11:40:31  <antimatroid1> you only get land the first time you see it
2011-02-20T11:41:12  <antimatroid1> how do you know for example how much you can see on a turn afer that?
2011-02-20T11:42:37  <McLeopold> you get more land lines?
2011-02-20T11:42:40  <antimatroid1> it's also fairly easy then to write a function to create the char map we previously sent, which then gives you the vision amount
2011-02-20T11:43:02  <antimatroid1> are you talking about total number of squares seen in the game? or squares you can currently see this turn?
2011-02-20T11:43:10  <antimatroid1> i'm referring to the later
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2011-02-20T11:43:47  <antimatroid1> oh, did you see hebbie's new forum thread?
2011-02-20T11:43:58  <antimatroid1> he has rendered my ideal parameters invalid
2011-02-20T11:44:21  <antimatroid1> i would prefer to avoid enemy collisions
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2011-02-20T11:44:30  <McLeopold> I'm talking total squares
2011-02-20T11:45:24  <antimatroid1> total squares is easy to do with anything, just keep an extra variable with each square whether the square has been seen at all yet
2011-02-20T11:45:34  <antimatroid1> and a counter of how many you've seen
2011-02-20T11:46:30  <antimatroid1> anyway, i can live with it as is now, but i think it'd make things easier to just send currently visible ants/food and first time seen water squares
2011-02-20T11:47:00  <antimatroid1> the explanation of that is a lot easier than wording out when you will see a land square again
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2011-02-20T11:56:51  <McLeopold> In the interest of keeping the bots simple, I think I'll stick with giving out the land you can see for the first time.
2011-02-20T11:57:42  <antimatroid1> the bots would still be very simple
2011-02-20T11:57:55  <antimatroid1> at the start of each turn, set everything that isn't a wall to land
2011-02-20T11:58:03  <antimatroid1> then read the state info in, then make moves
2011-02-20T11:58:23  <antimatroid1> i think it makes everything easier :P
2011-02-20T11:58:30  <McLeopold> That would work.  But then they are assuming they can walk everywhere at first
2011-02-20T11:58:40  <McLeopold> Actually, I kinda like it
2011-02-20T11:58:50  <McLeopold> So, no land ever gets sent
2011-02-20T11:58:56  <antimatroid1> i was always going to assume I can walk anywhere until known otherwise :P
2011-02-20T11:59:23  <antimatroid1> i will also be marking squares by "last seen" with 0 being not seen yet
2011-02-20T11:59:30  <antimatroid1> but that's for people to do themselves
2011-02-20T11:59:46  <McLeopold> so, you still want a land line to mark disappearing things?
2011-02-20T11:59:51  <antimatroid1> no
2011-02-20T12:00:24  <antimatroid1> basic rule would be: you get sent info for a water square the first time you see it, then you also get info for any ants (live or just dead) and food you can see, that's it
2011-02-20T12:00:48  <McLeopold> Yeah, that would be a lot less info, and still simple for the sample bots.
2011-02-20T12:01:08  <antimatroid1> yep, and easier to explain and for you :)
2011-02-20T12:02:19  <antimatroid1> then if people really want, they can read that info into a char map of ?'s and paint out the '.' squares from 'a' to get the char map, which is what I plan to do
2011-02-20T12:05:06  <antimatroid1> McLeopold: did you remove the "end" line from bots input?
2011-02-20T12:05:17  <antimatroid1> i don't really care for it, just checking for taking it out of the spec
2011-02-20T12:17:26  <McLeopold> no
2011-02-20T12:17:31  <McLeopold> I didn't mean to
2011-02-20T12:18:13  <McLeopold> Oh, the sample bot input was a bot that was eliminated
2011-02-20T12:18:50  <McLeopold> So, I either need to send the end line to them and the middle game scores, or keep it running and send them the info at the end.
2011-02-20T12:19:11  <McLeopold> Either way, this info is for tcp and local debugging/learning only.  It wouldn't matter for the official server.
2011-02-20T12:19:35  <McLeopold> So really, whatever people using tcp find the most useful
2011-02-20T12:21:54  <antimatroid1> McLeopold: I just updated the specs page for bot and visualiser input
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2011-02-20T12:22:11  <antimatroid1> it might not be perfect, but it's close to what i think should be done
2011-02-20T12:22:23  <McLeopold> without land?
2011-02-20T12:22:27  <antimatroid1> yep
2011-02-20T12:22:31  <McLeopold> ok
2011-02-20T12:22:38  <antimatroid1> you don't need to send w info to the visualiser either
2011-02-20T12:22:50  <antimatroid1> or loadtime/turntime etc. but it does need the number of players and the version
2011-02-20T12:23:18  <McLeopold> ok
2011-02-20T12:23:28  <antimatroid1> anyway, i'm off to bed
2011-02-20T12:23:35  <antimatroid1> classes start for the year in 5 hours :\
2011-02-20T12:23:46  <McLeopold> I was thinking that the replay file could be sent to a bot, but it would need to be scrubbed anyway, so I can remove the W lines.
2011-02-20T12:23:54  <McLeopold> what class first?
2011-02-20T12:25:17  <antimatroid1> functional analysis
2011-02-20T12:25:26  <McLeopold> ?
2011-02-20T12:25:38  <antimatroid1> maths :P
2011-02-20T12:25:41  <McLeopold> oh
2011-02-20T12:25:48  <McLeopold> I use to know math.
2011-02-20T12:25:59  <McLeopold> But I never get to use it in the real world. :(
2011-02-20T12:26:23  <antimatroid1> yeah, i don't think much of what i'll learn this year will be very useful in the real world
2011-02-20T12:26:27  <antimatroid1> i get take home exams too :D
2011-02-20T12:26:35  <McLeopold> nice
2011-02-20T12:31:56  <jmcarthur> math isn't meant for the real world anyway
2011-02-20T12:32:24  <jmcarthur> but i bet even functional analysis has some real world applications
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2011-02-20T13:11:46  <flag> Is the current engine up to date with the everything-is-land until I find it thing?
2011-02-20T13:11:55  <flag> And the dead ant owners?
2011-02-20T13:11:58  <McLeopold> not yet
2011-02-20T13:12:04  <McLeopold> not yet
2011-02-20T13:12:17  <flag> okay
2011-02-20T13:15:23  <McLeopold> give me out 20 min
2011-02-20T13:19:20  <flag> :)
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2011-02-20T14:09:28  <CIA-14> aichallenge: McLeopold epsilon * rc7330b8 / (8 files in 4 dirs): Removed 'L' lines from engine. Changed bots to assume everything is land until a 'W' line is sent. Sending an owner along with a dead ant line. - http://bit.ly/gGGs4L
2011-02-20T14:09:29  <CIA-14> aichallenge: McLeopold epsilon * rad4a57e / (ants/.gitignore ants/playback/.gitignore): Merge branch 'epsilon' of github.com:aichallenge/aichallenge into epsilon - http://bit.ly/eSNDf7
2011-02-20T14:09:31  <CIA-14> aichallenge: McLeopold epsilon * rc04f44a / ants/playback/.gitignore : Removed playback dir and .gitignore file. - http://bit.ly/fkfL7k
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2011-02-20T14:10:05  <McLeopold> flag: okay, get the latest...
2011-02-20T14:13:04  <flag> McLeopold: okay, thanks
2011-02-20T14:13:22  <McLeopold> you're doing a c++ bot?
2011-02-20T14:13:24  <McLeopold> or just c?
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2011-02-20T14:17:21  <flag> c at the moment, but c is valid c++ :P
2011-02-20T14:17:38  <McLeopold> true
2011-02-20T14:19:16  <flag> The engine doesn't send me the new position of my own ants after I've moved them does it?
2011-02-20T14:19:25  <McLeopold> yes, it does
2011-02-20T14:19:34  <flag> Oh
2011-02-20T14:19:41  <McLeopold> it sends the position of all ants and food and dead ants that you can see
2011-02-20T14:20:03  <flag> Even if there's no new information?
2011-02-20T14:20:06  <McLeopold> yes
2011-02-20T14:20:20  <flag> okay
2011-02-20T14:20:52  <McLeopold> it's up to you to clear the food list if it goes out of vision, or to assume it always disappears
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2011-02-20T14:45:07  <McLeopold> Frontier: hows the visualizer?
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2011-02-20T14:49:52  <Frontier> McLeopold: it is going slow. can a food item spawn and be converted to an ant in the same turn?
2011-02-20T14:50:26  <McLeopold> no
2011-02-20T14:50:33  <McLeopold> spawn after birth
2011-02-20T14:51:47  <Frontier> that's what I wanted to hear :)
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2011-02-20T15:15:30  <jmcarthur> flag: c isn't valid c++
2011-02-20T15:15:39  <jmcarthur> int class;
2011-02-20T15:15:40  <McLeopold> not even a little?
2011-02-20T15:15:41  <jmcarthur> ;)
2011-02-20T15:16:25  <jmcarthur> a subset of c is valid c++
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2011-02-20T15:20:37  <McLeopold> jmcarthur: did you get the new bot input samples?
2011-02-20T15:20:45  <McLeopold> there was 1 change this morning
2011-02-20T15:23:42  <flag> jmcarthur: it's close enough for me
2011-02-20T15:24:19  <McLeopold> http://tcp.zeroviz.us/viewer.html
2011-02-20T15:24:19  <McLeopold> http://tcp.zeroviz.us/0.replay
2011-02-20T15:24:19  <McLeopold> http://tcp.zeroviz.us/0.bot0.input
2011-02-20T15:24:19  <McLeopold> http://tcp.zeroviz.us/0.bot0.output
2011-02-20T15:24:34  <McLeopold> bot1, bot2 and bot3 are there too
2011-02-20T15:24:54  <jmcarthur> McLeopold: ah thanks, i was going to ask if there were updated versions
2011-02-20T15:25:16  <McLeopold> the big change is no 'L' lines, and 'D' lines have an owner
2011-02-20T15:25:28  <jmcarthur> cool
2011-02-20T15:25:45  <jmcarthur> glad to see the L lines go, personally :)
2011-02-20T15:25:59  <jmcarthur> and i figured the D line enhancement would be coming anyway
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2011-02-20T15:27:33  <jmcarthur> the visualizer keeps dead ants around now? is that intentional?
2011-02-20T15:27:41  <McLeopold> yeah, it was a hack
2011-02-20T15:27:54  <McLeopold> but I'd like it to show area's of high conflict
2011-02-20T15:28:17  <jmcarthur> cool
2011-02-20T15:28:46  <jmcarthur> sucks that they disappear when ants run over them, but no biggie i guess
2011-02-20T15:28:58  <jmcarthur> ah and they don't reset when the game starts over
2011-02-20T15:29:11  <jmcarthur> or reappear when you go wrap backward to the last turn
2011-02-20T15:30:15  <McLeopold> yeah, hack job
2011-02-20T15:30:50  <jmcarthur> might also be cool to make a square get gradually darker if more than one ant dies on it over time
2011-02-20T15:31:05  <jmcarthur> like a heat map, i guess
2011-02-20T15:32:37  <McLeopold> yes, I thought of that!  it would be cool
2011-02-20T15:32:41  <McLeopold> dfghbnm,
2011-02-20T15:32:41  <McLeopold> j bnm
2011-02-20T15:33:13  <McLeopold> just spilled something on the keyboard :/
2011-02-20T15:34:55  <McLeopold> the heat map would allow me to clear the spots properly as well
2011-02-20T15:39:28  <jmcarthur> do the "turn" lines serve any purpose other than convenience?
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2011-02-20T15:44:47  <McLeopold> No
2011-02-20T15:44:59  <McLeopold> For debugging / local learning.
2011-02-20T15:46:42  <jmcarthur> mkay
2011-02-20T15:47:23  <jmcarthur> is it guaranteed to always come before any other information on each turn?
2011-02-20T15:48:39  <McLeopold> for bot input, yes
2011-02-20T15:48:46  <jmcarthur> cool
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2011-02-20T15:53:50  <jmcarthur> i assume that i should probably try to make all this case insensitive
2011-02-20T15:54:03  <jmcarthur> although i don't see it being an issue in practice
2011-02-20T15:55:03  <McLeopold> yes, but I'm trying to keep everything lower
2011-02-20T15:55:40  <jmcarthur> lol, right as you said that, i saw this line in the repo: sys.stdout.write('O %s %s %s\n' % (order[0], order[1], order[2]))
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2011-02-20T16:13:20  <flag> Question: what is the reasoning behind not spawning food symmetrically?
2011-02-20T16:17:54  <McLeopold> laziness
2011-02-20T16:18:44  <flag> Will it be in the final version?
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2011-02-20T16:31:42  <McLeopold> flag: maybe not, we are going to try non-symmetrical maps
2011-02-20T16:32:07  <McLeopold> The starting food near starting ants should be placed very symmetrical though.
2011-02-20T16:33:10  <jmcarthur> yeah, early game is more critical than later game
2011-02-20T16:36:05  <flag> So I suppose fairness is to be achieved by playing enough games so the good/bad spwans average out?
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2011-02-20T17:00:33  <antimatroid1> McLeopold: are you telling us how old a dead ant is? I want to know hold long ago they died if you leave them there like that
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2011-02-20T17:00:55  <flag> I think he only leaves them there on the visualizer
2011-02-20T17:01:08  <flag> But I could be wrong
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2011-02-20T17:07:19  <McLeopold> antimatroid: Yeah, visualizer only.  Dead ants only appear if you see them die.
2011-02-20T17:07:30  <McLeopold> So, always 1 turn old.
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2011-02-20T17:31:37  <flag> So what's the next step in getting this contest going?
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2011-02-20T18:15:39  <McLeopold> amstan: is there a test side of the ai-contest.com?
2011-02-20T18:15:51  <amstan> McLeopold: no
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