2011-03-12T00:06:22  <antimatroid> _flag: which unsymmetrical maps?
2011-03-12T00:06:49  <antimatroid> i've not really played around with asymmetric maps yet, and have been fairly opposed to them the whole time
2011-03-12T00:09:13  <antimatroid> _flag: I don't think food has been spawned symmetrically yet, we would need to work out how to do it
2011-03-12T00:09:23  <antimatroid> i've proposed a method for doing it, but not sure how others feel about it
2011-03-12T00:25:40  <_flag> antimatroid: You made some asymmetric maps awhile ago, but it doesn't really matter. The big thing is the symmetric food spawning.
2011-03-12T00:25:45  <janzert> https://github.com/aichallenge/aichallenge/blob/epsilon-new-schema/ants/ants.py
2011-03-12T00:26:07  <janzert> antimatroid: you might want to take a look at the three methods in there and see if one of them is your proposal
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2011-03-12T01:27:55  <McLeopold> sigh: food can be placed on any land, with no restrictions.  dead ants are informational only, they are not actually on the map
2011-03-12T01:28:56  <sigh> McLeopold: good to know
2011-03-12T01:31:09  <sigh> McLeopold: question: in do_attack_closest what is the meaning of this line: "if self.map[a_row][a_col] != LAND: ", before I got rid of CONFLICT, this line would always evaluate to true?
2011-03-12T01:31:28  <McLeopold> let me look
2011-03-12T01:31:50  <sigh> also, do_attack_occupied set killed ants to LAND, and do_attack_closest set them to CONFLICT
2011-03-12T01:32:15  <sigh> also, I don't see how do_attack_occupied manages to be order-independent, but that might just me be
2011-03-12T01:34:03  <McLeopold> hmm, must have been a left over check before I was marking spots as conflict
2011-03-12T01:34:56  <McLeopold> attack_occupied is locally deterministic, meaning you only need to see the state of the ants around you
2011-03-12T01:35:25  <McLeopold> each ant can be determined to live or die independent of all the other ants
2011-03-12T01:36:03  <sigh> nearby_ants only finds ants that are alive, so ants already killed wont count
2011-03-12T01:36:04  <McLeopold> I also didn't update the function for use with sending the dead ant lines, which is why attack_closest is different
2011-03-12T01:36:38  <sigh> thus nearby_ants will return different results if the ant is evaluated first, as opposed to last
2011-03-12T01:38:39  <McLeopold> attack_occupied was written and thrown away before I was in source control.  what you see was written fast and never tested
2011-03-12T01:39:00  <sigh> heh ok :)
2011-03-12T01:40:18  <McLeopold> hmm...does nearby ants screw up the attack_closest as well?
2011-03-12T01:41:14  <McLeopold> in attack_closest, it is suppose to remove an attack group so that the ants do disappear
2011-03-12T01:41:41  <sigh> McLeopold: it should be alright, because technically the ants are supposed to be partitioned into distinct sets
2011-03-12T01:41:43  <McLeopold> if you start with the closest distances, you are assured you won't miss an ant
2011-03-12T01:42:16  <sigh> but it's a bit tenuous, I would rather if the partitioning was explicit, so that the order-independence was obvious
2011-03-12T01:42:24  <McLeopold> I think my working version of attack_occupied had a kill list that was later applied
2011-03-12T01:42:36  <sigh> especially if this is the canonical impl for other engines
2011-03-12T01:42:51  <McLeopold> yeah, if you have question about what is going on, everyone will
2011-03-12T01:43:10  <McLeopold> it's tough to balance speed, cleverness and straighforwardness
2011-03-12T01:43:14  <sigh> :)
2011-03-12T01:43:47  <McLeopold> I think if we go with your ant store functions, it might read better?
2011-03-12T01:43:58  <sigh> I don't think doing it explicitly will insure a significant performance penalty
2011-03-12T01:44:11  <McLeopold> it should be obvious that an attack group is located, then removed, then it continues
2011-03-12T01:44:30  <McLeopold> python function calls are expensive in loops
2011-03-12T01:45:21  <McLeopold> early on I had both a pure matrix and a pure list implementation, and both were quite slow compared to the hybrid
2011-03-12T01:45:36  <sigh> I don't propose function calls, just doing the partitioning as a seperate phase to the actual killing
2011-03-12T01:45:41  <sigh> *extra function calls
2011-03-12T01:46:03  <McLeopold> oh, so I am creating "kill groups", just cache the entire list, then kill them all off
2011-03-12T01:46:13  <McLeopold> that might make the scoring easier to understand too
2011-03-12T01:46:40  <McLeopold> were going to piss off people in languages without Fraction objects. :)
2011-03-12T01:47:36  <McLeopold> I've made more changes to the ants.py game engine, making me more scared to merge.
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2011-03-12T01:49:18  <McLeopold> bedtime, night
2011-03-12T01:49:20  <sigh> I'm happy to write a proposed alternative to the do_attack functions and you can decide if you like it
2011-03-12T01:49:22  <sigh> ok, night
2011-03-12T02:25:35  <antimatroid> sigh: have you guys done symmetric food yet?
2011-03-12T02:25:48  <sigh> antimatroid: no
2011-03-12T02:25:51  <antimatroid> _flag said before that it seems horribly unfair with asymmetric atm
2011-03-12T02:26:19  <antimatroid> i really don't see how we'll get food spawning fairly asymmetrically without a common seed
2011-03-12T02:27:10  <antimatroid> and i'm not a fan of it being "almost" fair, it makes each game very hard to tell whether your bot did well with if you don't know it started with the same chances as everyone else
2011-03-12T02:28:50  <sigh> antimatroid: I'll have a look at symmetric later then
2011-03-12T02:29:01  <sigh> might have to wait till monday though, dunno
2011-03-12T02:29:08  <antimatroid> :) cheers
2011-03-12T02:29:14  <antimatroid> it really shouldn't be very hard i don't think
2011-03-12T02:31:05  <antimatroid> sigh: is resolve battles still just a single function somewhere? or has it become lodged into the engine?
2011-03-12T02:32:15  <sigh> it's a single function, why?
2011-03-12T02:32:47  <antimatroid> because we need to be able to change that easily  :P
2011-03-12T02:32:52  <antimatroid> by we i mean me
2011-03-12T02:33:01  <sigh> haha
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2011-03-12T02:48:15  <antimatroid> my square struct is quite horrible again, ah well
2011-03-12T02:48:36  <antimatroid> i have lastseen, iswall, isfood, occupied, ant, and vectors for new_ants and dead_ants :\
2011-03-12T02:50:49  * antimatroid still thinks it should be considered ideal to avoid implicit information where possible
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2011-03-12T04:22:55  <sigh> antimatroid: how does your symmetric method work fairly?
2011-03-12T04:23:13  <antimatroid> sigh: each player starts with exactly the same outlook
2011-03-12T04:23:52  <sigh> so your method chooses a random location R
2011-03-12T04:24:05  <sigh> and determines a translation T
2011-03-12T04:24:18  <sigh> and places food at R+T?
2011-03-12T04:24:22  <antimatroid> rtrans and ctrans are already given by the starting locations
2011-03-12T04:24:25  <sigh> and then what for other food?
2011-03-12T04:24:53  <sigh> forget about row and col, that just makes things confusing to talk about, just think of them as vectors
2011-03-12T04:24:54  <antimatroid> you pick a location R that is land, then place n food items, getting each location by continually translating by rtrans and ctrans
2011-03-12T04:25:35  <sigh> so R, R+T, R+2*T... R+nT
2011-03-12T04:25:35  <sigh> ?
2011-03-12T04:25:51  <antimatroid> R + nT = R but yeah
2011-03-12T04:26:04  <antimatroid> i pick everything so that R + nT = R
2011-03-12T04:26:08  <antimatroid> that gives your tesselation
2011-03-12T04:26:34  <sigh> how are you sure it tessellates? doesn't that depend on the dimensions of the map?
2011-03-12T04:26:34  <antimatroid> i've also made sure that no two players start in the same row or col, meaning 1. you can get rtrans and ctrans from any two players starting postions and 2. it looks better
2011-03-12T04:26:46  <antimatroid> i pick the dimensions so that it works
2011-03-12T04:27:03  <sigh> what are the conditions for the dimensions?
2011-03-12T04:27:35  <antimatroid> http://pastebin.com/4STgz3Zk
2011-03-12T04:27:41  <antimatroid> that is my pick dimesions function
2011-03-12T04:28:02  <sigh> nice c++
2011-03-12T04:28:10  <antimatroid> your basic conditions are
2011-03-12T04:28:11  <antimatroid> self.no_players = lcm(self.rows/gcd(self.row_t, self.rows), self.cols/gcd(self.col_t, self.cols) )
2011-03-12T04:28:13  <antimatroid> err yeah sorry :P
2011-03-12T04:29:33  <sigh> ok, im in no mood for number theory atm... I'll trust it
2011-03-12T04:30:01  <antimatroid> sigh: basically, the number of translates it takes to get back into the same row is rows/gcd(rows, r_translate), then it's the lcm of those to get both to meet at the same time
2011-03-12T04:30:09  <antimatroid> everything else follows pretty easily once you understand that
2011-03-12T04:30:18  <sigh> yeah, I can see what you are doing, I just cbf verifying
2011-03-12T04:30:24  <antimatroid> yep :)
2011-03-12T04:30:29  <antimatroid> i assure you i'm right
2011-03-12T04:30:51  <antimatroid> it's really neat how well the torus works for symmetry with n players though
2011-03-12T04:31:04  <antimatroid> there are a bunch of groups one could formally define
2011-03-12T04:31:45  <antimatroid> jmcarthur did a count of "number of feasible starting positions" with a fairly wide net and there were HEAPS
2011-03-12T04:34:17  <antimatroid> i'm surprised queues and do while are so much effort in python
2011-03-12T04:34:32  <sigh> why is a queue so much effort?
2011-03-12T04:34:46  <antimatroid> you can't just use a list like a stack can you?
2011-03-12T04:34:59  <antimatroid> when i googled it i only got some answer for importing deques
2011-03-12T04:36:19  <sigh> yeah, what's wrong with deque?
2011-03-12T04:36:39  <antimatroid> nothing it was just a bit of effort
2011-03-12T04:37:00  <antimatroid> i like minimalism
2011-03-12T04:37:12  <sigh> how would you make it more minimal?
2011-03-12T04:37:25  <antimatroid> allow lists to pop_front?
2011-03-12T04:37:50  <antimatroid> or make it fairly easy to have a double ended list or whatever
2011-03-12T04:38:10  <antimatroid> or even just make stack and queue recognised data structures with in built implementations?
2011-03-12T04:38:15  <antimatroid> they're pretty standard structures
2011-03-12T04:38:32  <antimatroid> i still think the list method is a bit strange for stacks
2011-03-12T04:38:42  <antimatroid> but i will admit it works quite nicely
2011-03-12T04:38:58  <sigh> are you complaining about one import line?
2011-03-12T04:39:19  <sigh> that is part of the standard library?
2011-03-12T04:39:30  <antimatroid> one has to remember the import line, and i'm simultaneously arguing not just having stack and queue as known types
2011-03-12T04:39:50  <antimatroid> i like stuff that is intuitively easy to remember
2011-03-12T04:39:56  <antimatroid> i will find anything to complain about
2011-03-12T04:39:58  <antimatroid> it's what i do
2011-03-12T04:40:14  <sigh> not just having stack and queue as known types?
2011-03-12T04:40:17  <sigh> what does that mean?
2011-03-12T04:40:32  <antimatroid> well you can just say stack<int> s in c++
2011-03-12T04:40:39  <antimatroid> it's intuitively easy to remember
2011-03-12T04:40:48  <sigh> you have to import from std lib
2011-03-12T04:41:00  <antimatroid> import <stack> again intuiteively easy to remember
2011-03-12T04:41:24  <sigh> as opposed to stack = []
2011-03-12T04:41:47  <sigh> either way, a queue is just as much effort to import in both languages
2011-03-12T04:41:51  <antimatroid> squaresToCheck = [] doesn't really say stack
2011-03-12T04:42:03  <antimatroid> it's more effort to remember the python import line :P
2011-03-12T04:42:19  <sigh> -_-
2011-03-12T04:42:21  <antimatroid> :P
2011-03-12T04:43:30  <antimatroid> i take it you're looking at symmetric implementation of food spawning now?
2011-03-12T04:43:45  <sigh> I was just looking at the specs
2011-03-12T04:43:46  <antimatroid> there are still those issues about some squares containing live ants/food
2011-03-12T04:44:04  <sigh> I'm technically playing board games with friends
2011-03-12T04:44:12  <antimatroid> ah fair enough
2011-03-12T04:45:09  <antimatroid> for the moment i would not place food when an ant blocks one of the squares, but do place it even if you're "placing over" a current food square
2011-03-12T04:45:28  <sigh> why over current food?
2011-03-12T04:45:30  <antimatroid> under the grounds that "too bad if you didn't manage to get to that square yet", but i'm still open to others opinions
2011-03-12T04:45:47  <sigh> should that apply to the other food placement options?
2011-03-12T04:46:05  <antimatroid> i'd ideally like to pick something that's fair and doesn't open any strategy for where to place ants in order to limit where enemies will get food spawned
2011-03-12T04:46:31  <antimatroid> i really don't know, like i said on the wiki, i know there's a problem, i don't know the correct fix
2011-03-12T04:48:08  <antimatroid> i only want to limit that kind of strategy because it's messy, unlikely to really help and just going to cause people complaining, but even that opinion is open to others opinions of course
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2011-03-12T10:46:01  <McLeopold> antimatroid: ping
2011-03-12T10:56:18  <amriedle> good evening children of the weekend
2011-03-12T10:58:10  <McLeopold> howdy
2011-03-12T12:14:17  <amriedle> "you add up the number of hours that I've spent in conversation with editors, compilers, and debuggers over the years, I don't doubt that they add up to more time than I've spent in conversation with human beings."
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2011-03-12T13:59:09  <antimatroid> McLeopold: pong
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2011-03-12T16:48:26  <Frontier> McLeopold: The new replay format is really slim compared to the old one. It uses less than 10% of the space :-)
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2011-03-12T17:36:13  <CIA-33> aichallenge: Marco Leise epsilon * r1176fae / (17 files in 4 dirs):
2011-03-12T17:36:13  <CIA-33> aichallenge: - new replay format
2011-03-12T17:36:13  <CIA-33> aichallenge: - splitted javascript file - http://bit.ly/f0LkV1
2011-03-12T17:40:44  <Frontier> @later tell sigh: I checked in the support for the new replay format. There seems to be a bug with the locations where ants spawn.
2011-03-12T17:40:44  <contestbot> Frontier: Yep.
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2011-03-12T18:31:57  <sigh> @later tell Frontier What is the bug? The only thing I can think of is that the map shows the state at the end of the game (because in your replay spec you say: define the map, only '%' are important)... initial ants are the ones whose start turn is 0, I can change if required. Otherwise please give me enough details to reproduce the bug.
2011-03-12T18:31:57  <contestbot> sigh: OK
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2011-03-12T22:11:33  <bss03> jmcarthur: Are all your dependencies for your start bot going to be on the workers?
2011-03-12T22:11:59  <bss03> jmcarthur: I have the haskel-platform from Debian Sid installed and there are some things missing.
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2011-03-12T22:12:58  <bss03> jmcarthur: blaze, bytestring, hashable, time, unordered-containers.
2011-03-12T22:13:30  <bss03> jmcathur: Sid is still stuck on 2010.1.0.0.1, is Maverick better?
2011-03-12T22:26:57  <bss03> @later tell jmcarthur: Some of your ants-bot dependencies aren't in the haskell-platform in Maverick; will they be on the contest compile boxes?
2011-03-12T22:26:57  <contestbot> bss03: OK
2011-03-12T22:27:52  <amstan> jmcarthur: bss03: you guys have to add them to the setup script
2011-03-12T22:28:23  <bss03> amstan: I'm just trying to figure out where jmcarthur got them, at this point.
2011-03-12T22:28:42  <bss03> amstan: I thought installing haskell-platform locally would be enough. :(
2011-03-12T22:37:09  <bss03> Sometimes I think Haskellers are as bad as Rubites in trying to make everyone use thier packaging system.
2011-03-12T22:37:25  <amstan> i don't like packages, i agree
2011-03-12T22:37:39  <bss03> I trust (aptitude install $pkg) much more than (cabal install $pkg).  If for no other reason because there's an uninstall.
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2011-03-12T22:59:44  <jmcarthur> bss03: the idea is for the server to have those already
2011-03-12T22:59:57  <jmcarthur> bss03: just cd into the library directory and run cabal install. it will handle everything
2011-03-12T23:00:11  <jmcarthur> i can't work on it for a few days, probably
2011-03-12T23:00:24  * jmcarthur is in new york for a job interview right now
2011-03-12T23:01:50  <jmcarthur> bss03: you can unregister cabal packages and, if you install them as user packages, just trash them from your home directory
2011-03-12T23:02:11  <jmcarthur> bss03: also if you have a distro that doesn't suck then most haskell packages can be managed by the package manager anyway :P
2011-03-12T23:29:35  <antimatroid> jmcarthur: are you going to include the stuff in the starter packs for people to get it running locally? :P
2011-03-12T23:33:28  <jmcarthur> antimatroid: i think it's fine to require the haskell platform, and it just takes one extra command beyond that...
2011-03-12T23:44:15  <antimatroid> yeah, i don't really mind with haskell
2011-03-12T23:44:25  <antimatroid> if someone plans to use it i expect them to be fairly capable
2011-03-12T23:44:38  <antimatroid> my current problem is i have two output functions for a struct
2011-03-12T23:45:20  <antimatroid> one is for a format to read stuff back in again from file, the other is so that the output is human readable, i can't really have both with << unless i strictly use one for ofstreams and the other for ostreams D:
2011-03-12T23:48:06  <jmcarthur> ew
2011-03-12T23:54:29  <antimatroid> exactly
2011-03-12T23:54:58  <antimatroid> it's for nplayer normal form games though, so it's printing an ndimensional tensor in human readable form that's really just stored in a 1d vector :P
2011-03-12T23:55:17  <antimatroid> well, it's actually printing n such tensors
2011-03-12T23:56:55  <antimatroid> http://pastebin.com/7qm3bbQk
2011-03-12T23:57:05  <antimatroid> the human readable function is consierably more horrible code wise :P