2011-03-13T00:08:06 antimatoid: When codeing C++, I generally prefer '<<' to be the "human readable". 2011-03-13T00:08:49 bss03: it's sort of like that now, except i'm catching << for file streams and doing the save format then 2011-03-13T00:08:58 i'm not very happy with it like that though 2011-03-13T00:09:07 antimatroid: Then a write() and read() function that does the network/file/other marshaling. 2011-03-13T00:10:19 '<<' available as a non-operator with print() '>>' available as a non-operator with scan(). 2011-03-13T00:10:48 one wouldn't input a game except in the save format 2011-03-13T00:11:05 it's actually really hard to write down a game with more than 2 players 2011-03-13T00:11:16 but this will handle any number ignoring memory limits 2011-03-13T00:11:27 But, I can at C++ from the POSIX-or-bust C mentallity. so (C++=C) print=printf scan=scanf write=write read=read. 2011-03-13T00:11:44 s/can/come/ 2011-03-13T00:14:26 jmcarthur: What is a "distro that doesn't suck" when it some to managing cabal packages as distro packages. 2011-03-13T00:15:15 jmcarthur: From what I understand, it is pretty easy to take a cabalized package and turn it into a policy-compliant .deb, but I haven't been following all the Haskell packaging work in Debian. 2011-03-13T00:56:12 *** delt0r_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T00:57:51 *** delt0r___ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2011-03-13T00:58:03 bss03: what are your thoughts on not including a "no parameter" constructer if it makes no sense to use it? 2011-03-13T01:08:01 antimatroid: Declare one as private, then don't implement it. 2011-03-13T01:08:55 antimatroid: I'm working under the assumption that this class is entirely non-struct-like. 2011-03-13T01:10:16 The private -> no implementation way prevents use from outside the class, and gives a linker error if you accidentally use it inside the class. 2011-03-13T01:12:58 i have everything as structs, but i have been considering switching this back to classes 2011-03-13T01:13:10 this is my general game theory library 2011-03-13T01:13:29 i'm cleaning everything up because i want to use it for thesis stuff this year 2011-03-13T01:13:54 i'll put it up on github once i've cleaned things more 2011-03-13T01:14:39 I generally try and reserve the "struct" keyword for POD. 2011-03-13T01:14:52 it's all i use normally :P 2011-03-13T01:15:05 i'm a communist when it comes to programming, everything is public 2011-03-13T01:15:30 but people can really mess things up with this library if the start changing things themselves 2011-03-13T01:16:22 Having to deal with a lot of C and some ugly C++/ESQL/C mixes, having the semantic anchor of "struct" -> "POD" is helpful for retaining sanity. 2011-03-13T01:17:14 In "pure" C++ though, I don't have much opinion; I guess use whichever saves you the most typing. :P 2011-03-13T01:18:00 If everything is public, hasing a no-arg constructor probably does "make sense" though. 2011-03-13T01:18:38 nah, the point is it makes no sense to make a pure/mixed strategy without having game dimensions, so without passing that it can't construct something that is usable 2011-03-13T01:18:45 and i use pure strategies for indexing tensors 2011-03-13T01:18:58 as they internally store the index value 2011-03-13T01:19:19 a similar thing happens with mixed strategies but for more efficiently calculating lots of expected utilities 2011-03-13T01:21:31 bss03: what's more appealing? :P 2011-03-13T01:21:31 NStrategy strategy(game.dimensions); or 2011-03-13T01:21:31 NStrategy strategy = game.NStrategy(); 2011-03-13T01:22:15 I'm a big fan of the Factory pattern, so I like the later. 2011-03-13T01:22:41 i like the later too 2011-03-13T01:22:45 it just seems less standard 2011-03-13T01:23:05 and it's longer, which is pretty much against my life rules 2011-03-13T01:24:32 Well, I guess the techincal argument would be "Does it make sense to have a NStrategy without a specific game object in mind?" 2011-03-13T01:24:40 If so, the first. If not, the second. 2011-03-13T01:24:55 no, that's the reason i don't include the constructers, i need game.dimensions 2011-03-13T01:26:13 Since everything is public, couldn't use just create a "uninitialized" NStrategy and then populate it based on something other than game.dimensions? 2011-03-13T01:26:22 s/use/users/ 2011-03-13T01:27:17 a normal strategy is really just a vector of ints of length noPlayers, but for increment functions and calculating indexes for tensors i need to know the dimensions 2011-03-13T01:27:25 and otherwise you would need the number of players anyway 2011-03-13T01:27:35 I think if you class is only designed to work a certain way, the access levels should reflect it, which likely means making something private, the class non-struct-like, and doing the "private -> no implementation" thing with the default constructors you dont' like. 2011-03-13T01:27:56 you strictly need the dimensions for a mixed strategy because each player assigns a probability distribution across their strategy vector 2011-03-13T01:31:10 I'm an insufferacle purish though. It comes from having to be pragmatic at my DJ, while also having to work around earlier "pragmatism". 2011-03-13T01:31:25 *insufferable purist 2011-03-13T01:37:19 bah i hate you c++ 2011-03-13T01:37:32 yet again not being allowed to overload operator precedence makes my life difficult 2011-03-13T01:46:04 *** vikhyat has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T03:04:30 It's understandable though, even in Haskell the operator precedence is semi-"baked in" to the parser. 2011-03-13T03:04:40 i don't like that 2011-03-13T03:05:14 rules would be the same, don't overload it unless the use is obvious 2011-03-13T03:05:44 *** vikhyat has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) 2011-03-13T03:05:47 i haven't learnt much haskell yet, but i love the type system 2011-03-13T03:06:55 That's one of the things that attracked me to the language. I was looking for something staticly typed with good type inference. 2011-03-13T03:08:28 *** sigh has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T03:11:27 yeah, i've been gravitating towards haskell for a while, just haven't learnt it well enough yet 2011-03-13T03:11:31 it's so confusing :P 2011-03-13T03:12:24 yay... i feel better knowing that even math speople find it confusing 2011-03-13T03:12:32 *maths people 2011-03-13T03:12:46 Walking through jmcarthur's "starter pack" is enlightening to me. 2011-03-13T03:13:42 It seems to be a pretty dense application of MTL, which seems to be the norm for doing imperative stuff in Haskell. 2011-03-13T03:14:08 sigh: has anyone ever said haskell isn't confusing? 2011-03-13T03:14:23 Lots of people. :P 2011-03-13T03:14:30 heathens 2011-03-13T03:15:19 "toy" programs are easy, almost deceptively so. 2011-03-13T03:15:55 Every time I pick up haskell I end up having to relearn monads 2011-03-13T03:17:41 Well, it hurts that "learn monads" isn't really a single task. 2011-03-13T03:17:54 yeah 2011-03-13T03:18:23 The [] monad is significantly different in *behavior* than the STM or IO monad, although the interface is the same. 2011-03-13T03:18:31 I might try to write a haskell bot, but I looked at jmcarthur's starter pack and couldn't make head or tail of it :P 2011-03-13T03:19:01 bss03: yeah, that's the thing... and there are a million *tutorials* on monads which all say different things 2011-03-13T03:19:15 your mums a monad, yeah!!! 2011-03-13T03:19:18 sigh: I'm working through it slowly. Eventually, I'll add some documetnation to make it easier to read. 2011-03-13T03:19:32 cool :) 2011-03-13T03:19:54 sigh: Also, having even a do-nothing except query a bunch of things example would help A LOT. 2011-03-13T03:20:14 example of what? 2011-03-13T03:20:19 Which is what I'm doing in parallel. 2011-03-13T03:20:23 example "bot". 2011-03-13T03:20:27 ah, yeah 2011-03-13T03:21:30 Right now, there isn't one -- jmcarthur is focusing on it's use as a library, I think. 2011-03-13T03:23:47 monads is like all the parts of maths I find difficult, amazingly generic definition with no real appreciation of the motivation behind it 2011-03-13T03:26:51 *** Mathnerd314 has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2011-03-13T03:27:02 sigh: If you just want to *use* monads, focus on the *behavior* of IO, and probably some of the MTL. If you want to *write* a Monad, it helps to understand a little of of maths. 2011-03-13T03:27:53 I recommend the typeclassopedia for wrapping your head around how "simple" Monads really are to *write*. 2011-03-13T03:28:36 hmmm... ok 2011-03-13T03:32:41 we got the most awesome grill for uni on thursday, used it once, then have a 5 day weekend 2011-03-13T03:32:49 worst possible time ever to have a 5 day weekend 2011-03-13T03:33:04 o_O 2011-03-13T03:33:24 why do you have a 5 day weekend? 2011-03-13T03:33:33 fridays and tuesdays off every week :P 2011-03-13T03:33:36 So, during the weekend you don't have access to the grill? :( 2011-03-13T03:33:53 bss03: too far to bother going to the uni just for that 2011-03-13T03:33:57 it's like a 30 minute ride 2011-03-13T03:34:04 20 or so by car 2011-03-13T03:34:07 Aah. 2011-03-13T03:56:00 *** Frontier has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T03:58:34 *** UncleVasya has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T04:03:26 these two functions do the same thing, but the first is more efficient Oo 2011-03-13T04:03:27 http://pastebin.com/c9KQ30EP 2011-03-13T04:03:29 *** kaemo has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T04:05:51 *** Frontier1 has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T04:05:51 *** Frontier has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2011-03-13T04:07:45 *sigh* 2011-03-13T04:08:04 *Frontier1* 2011-03-13T04:08:15 that doesnt work :p 2011-03-13T04:08:35 so there is something strange about the spawn locations of new ants 2011-03-13T04:08:58 what is strange, specifically? 2011-03-13T04:09:17 take a look at this replay: http://marco-leise.homedns.org/antgui/work/visualizer.php?game_id=4#visualizer 2011-03-13T04:09:43 it's not loading 2011-03-13T04:09:56 as far as I know the ant spawning hasn't changed 2011-03-13T04:10:50 connection timed out 2011-03-13T04:10:52 all right I know why it isn't loading. 2011-03-13T04:12:07 im not at home ^^. shi... well there is for example the red ant. it converts food into ants. the food disappears correctly, but the new ant shows up a few squares away 2011-03-13T04:12:59 if you create a replay yourself you will see what i mean 2011-03-13T04:13:22 hmm... I'll have a look 2011-03-13T04:13:32 If you cannot insert it into your database, you can use the offline viewer and load the text into it directly 2011-03-13T04:13:34 this happens everytime an ant spawns from food? 2011-03-13T04:13:54 or only on specific occasions? 2011-03-13T04:14:20 not on very short games. it seems to happen when there is a lot going on. maybe some ant locations get mixed up over the course of a long game 2011-03-13T04:14:55 But it happens right from turn 0 on in that case 2011-03-13T04:15:47 <_flag> Question: When I play games, sometimes food turning into an ant will trigger more food (previously out of range) to turn into ants, and sometimes it won't. Is this expected? 2011-03-13T04:16:52 _flag: I think this is a bug in the spawning 2011-03-13T04:17:48 <_flag> sigh: okay, thanks 2011-03-13T04:18:42 ... and I can see where the bug is 2011-03-13T04:18:52 :D 2011-03-13T04:19:00 not your bug Frontier1 2011-03-13T04:19:05 Frontier1: how do I replicate your game? 2011-03-13T04:19:20 I can load your replay 2011-03-13T04:19:46 i use 4.replay in the replays folder 2011-03-13T04:20:08 ants/www/visualizer/replays/4.replay 2011-03-13T04:21:29 where is that? 2011-03-13T04:21:46 you have to pull the new version from the repo 2011-03-13T04:22:01 from aichallenge/aichallenge? 2011-03-13T04:22:20 yeah, from the original 2011-03-13T04:22:52 <_flag> sigh: I'm guessing the engine adds new ants to the ant list before resolving all the new spawns? 2011-03-13T04:22:58 _flag: yeah 2011-03-13T04:24:04 i can't follow you 2011-03-13T04:24:41 Frontier1: what do you mean? 2011-03-13T04:25:15 Frontier1: ok, I see the replay, which food is causing problems? 2011-03-13T04:25:59 do you see a big map and ants spawning seemingly at random? 2011-03-13T04:27:26 I haven't run it yet :) 2011-03-13T04:27:33 I'll look at it now 2011-03-13T04:27:54 I thought you both found a bug? *confused* 2011-03-13T04:28:58 * Frontier1 is about to breakfast and drink some coffee to be able to follow. 2011-03-13T04:29:54 Frontier1: I found where _flags bug was in the code 2011-03-13T04:30:12 I haven't even seen what your bug does yet :P 2011-03-13T04:30:18 Flag, you are writing code for the engine? 2011-03-13T04:30:30 <_flag> no 2011-03-13T04:30:42 *** amstan has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2011-03-13T04:30:48 <_flag> Unless by "for" the engine you mean writing a bot, in which case, yes 2011-03-13T04:31:27 ok, i think i got it now, hehe. is it a haskell bot? 2011-03-13T04:32:06 Frontier1: the viewer in aichallenge repo doesn't read the new format 2011-03-13T04:32:30 Oo 2011-03-13T04:32:45 oh, it's under www 2011-03-13T04:32:48 nvm 2011-03-13T04:32:56 <_flag> Nope. Last time I tried to learn Haskell I learned about 50 different things about the type system and still couldn't exactly figure out how to do a Hello World. 2011-03-13T04:33:41 hehe, then you must be working on the java bot 2011-03-13T04:34:19 <_flag> Strike 2, no, I wrote the C starter and I'm working on a library for my own bot now :) 2011-03-13T04:35:10 ok, so let's see what sigh found out in the meantime :) 2011-03-13T04:35:34 ugh... how do I run this offline 2011-03-13T04:36:04 <_flag> Go into the visualizer folder and run "python -m SimpleHTTPServer" 2011-03-13T04:36:13 <_flag> or "python2 -m SimpleHTTPServer" 2011-03-13T04:36:33 <_flag> And then the contents of 0.replay should be at http://localhost:8000/viewer.html 2011-03-13T04:37:05 use ants/www/visualizer/offline.html 2011-03-13T04:37:54 oh... I have to click the button -_- 2011-03-13T04:38:19 sorry, but i didn't find a cross browser 'on-paste' event 2011-03-13T04:38:51 <_flag> Never mind, scratch my advice, the visualizer's been updated in the mean time 2011-03-13T04:39:34 Frontier1: onchange? 2011-03-13T04:40:17 sigh: Believe me I tried them all ^^ 2011-03-13T04:40:21 :) 2011-03-13T04:40:59 hmm the cpu time limiter seems broken. it should only use 50% cpu 2011-03-13T04:42:42 ok, I'm away for breakfast 2011-03-13T04:43:41 *** _flag <_flag!~flag@69-165-173-172.dsl.teksavvy.com> has quit IRC (Quit: Lost terminal) 2011-03-13T05:08:57 someone want to give me a 2 minute crash course on licenses? 2011-03-13T05:09:56 can i just say something is released under one? if i put one there for the moment does it "restrict" me from changing it later? and finally is "The contents of this library are released under the Apache license." sufficient for the moment? and if you like, give me your preferred one and I'll put that there for the moment 2011-03-13T05:10:33 *** mceier has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T05:22:05 Haskell "Hello, World!" -> main = putStrLn "Hello, World!" 2011-03-13T05:22:58 antimatoid: As long as your are the (sole) copyright holder, you can release new versions under whatever license you wish, previous license choices don't restrict you. 2011-03-13T05:23:51 antimatoroid: Also, you can choose to not license old versions under the old license in the future, but you can't take someone's existing license away. 2011-03-13T05:25:25 animatroid: That wording should be fine for now. 2011-03-13T05:26:26 antimatroid: I prefer the WTF license for starter bots, but anything remotely BSD-ish (like either Apache license) should be fine. 2011-03-13T05:26:43 (Not that I'll be using your bot, at all.) 2011-03-13T05:28:17 yeah okay cool 2011-03-13T05:33:43 Frontier1: I can't figure out how that replay could have been generated. Can you tell me what you ran to create it. If you can, I have some changes in sigh/aichallenge which make runs deterministic, so if you can reproduce it that way it would be even better 2011-03-13T05:51:28 I used the RandomBot and 60 turns, but I'll pull your changes now and repeat the test. 2011-03-13T06:00:35 sigh: It doesn't run deterministically. 2011-03-13T06:00:59 Frontier1: use --seed argument to playgame.py 2011-03-13T06:01:10 ok thx 2011-03-13T06:01:43 it propagates the seed to the bots as part of the options, and I've made the python bots aware of it 2011-03-13T06:03:45 here you are: http://pastebin.com/tARp2KPp 2011-03-13T06:04:23 sigh: That's a good idea. 2011-03-13T06:04:52 Is it part of the stdio communication? 2011-03-13T06:05:27 yeah, you can see it in the replay output at the top too 2011-03-13T06:05:34 that's exactly how the bots see it as well 2011-03-13T06:08:11 Thats a good point about the replay format. Yesterday I found some flaws in it, too. Like for example a layman's approach would kill everything after the last turn, because the ants give no orders for the 'end game state' and so are considered dead in this turn. 2011-03-13T06:13:10 yeah... i think there might be some issues there, but I haven't thought too deeply about them 2011-03-13T06:13:57 Frontier1: would you mind pasting the exact command you used to create that run? 2011-03-13T06:16:18 ./playgame.py --seed 42 -m maps/random4.txt -t 60 -o output "python bots/python/RandomBot.py" "python bots/python/RandomBot.py" "python bots/python/RandomBot.py" "python bots/python/RandomBot.py" 2011-03-13T06:16:42 Python version is 2.6 if that is your next question ;) 2011-03-13T06:16:50 :) 2011-03-13T06:18:50 The random number generator implementation could be different, though. 2011-03-13T06:20:15 I remember a warning in a Delphi version about using pseudo random numbers for encryption, as the implementation could change between compiler releases. 2011-03-13T06:23:02 ahhh... dammit... I know why 2011-03-13T06:23:09 yes? what is it? 2011-03-13T06:23:12 I'm outputting the ant's FINAL position 2011-03-13T06:23:27 :P 2011-03-13T06:23:39 that explains why the coordinates were never too far off 2011-03-13T06:24:37 I'm glad it isn't something complicated. 2011-03-13T06:25:07 yeah... I was really confused because the code is so simple... and the engine was fine because the old visualiser worked 2011-03-13T06:28:13 jmcarthur: ping? 2011-03-13T06:28:56 Frontier1: do you think it would be better if the map showed the initial game position as well? 2011-03-13T06:30:15 sigh: I actually liked the map like this. It reminds me of the Youtube video previews. 2011-03-13T06:30:27 in what way? 2011-03-13T06:30:51 You get more information from a later state of the game than the initial state. 2011-03-13T06:31:02 fair enough 2011-03-13T06:31:11 will leave as is :) 2011-03-13T06:31:45 Maybe someone will write a local replay browser that displays the map as a preview... maybe 2011-03-13T06:32:53 Frontier1: ok, fixed and upload to sigh/aichallenge 2011-03-13T06:34:50 perfect, its working 2011-03-13T06:36:36 @later tell jmcarthur Is there a way to get the final TurnInfo without re-implementing runTurn? 2011-03-13T06:36:36 bss03: Yep. 2011-03-13T06:36:42 Frontier1: cool 2011-03-13T06:36:46 antimatroid: you around? 2011-03-13T06:37:07 yeah 2011-03-13T06:37:44 can you look at this function and tell me if it is what you expected: https://github.com/sigh/aichallenge/blob/sym-food/ants/ants.py#L565 2011-03-13T06:38:03 assume that initial_ant_list and find_nearest_land work as you would expect 2011-03-13T06:38:17 (this is for symmetric food) 2011-03-13T06:39:26 sigh: what's with the "find closest land"? 2011-03-13T06:40:08 sigh: you also can't assume players start with just 1 ant 2011-03-13T06:40:13 if the current square is occupied 2011-03-13T06:40:34 i don't think you can avoid issues doing that 2011-03-13T06:40:49 how do you tie break the closest square fairly? 2011-03-13T06:40:53 well, suggest something better 2011-03-13T06:40:59 you can't 2011-03-13T06:41:19 map becomes asymmetric when the game starts 2011-03-13T06:41:28 my suggestion was to pick another location if one of the squares is containing an ant 2011-03-13T06:42:42 ok, so you want to break the map into disjoint sets with n points each (where n is the number of players), and you want to pick a random set where none of the points are occupied 2011-03-13T06:42:44 is that it? 2011-03-13T06:43:33 that was my very naive symmetric method yes, although i was willing to allow some of those squares to contain food already 2011-03-13T06:43:56 i don't necessarily mind what you've done, was just checking what it's doing, i've said a few times i have no idea how to actually do it fairly :P 2011-03-13T06:44:52 I will see if I can implement your method efficiently 2011-03-13T06:45:15 also, with more than 1 ant per player how does the logic for the translation go? 2011-03-13T06:49:28 i haven't done actual more than 1 ant per player, but i imagine i'd need to enforce all enemies in a separate row/col then you could just take any 2 enemies starting ant locations to find translation amounts 2011-03-13T06:51:55 if we are doing any of this logic based on initial ant positions, let's limit it to 1 ant per player 2011-03-13T06:54:59 i asked mcleopold the other day and he said assume there may be more 2011-03-13T06:55:39 i think it'd be ideal for testing anyway 2011-03-13T06:57:24 sigh: is it hard for you to just assume it'll work for any two enemy ants start loc differences? then i'll play around later and work out whether that's valid or not 2011-03-13T06:59:09 antimatroid: it should be fine 2011-03-13T06:59:23 so long as the logic is straight-forward 2011-03-13T07:15:32 is there an efficient way to do battle resolution option 2? 2011-03-13T07:16:04 my original method was like iteratively make graphs until no ants need to be removed 2011-03-13T07:26:13 antimatroid: not sure, thinking about it now 2011-03-13T07:41:04 sigh: there are some annoying example cases with option 2 imo too 2011-03-13T07:41:16 like the existence of an extra one of your ants can mean 2 die instead of none 2011-03-13T07:42:20 ab.. .b.. 2011-03-13T07:42:20 ..c.a ..c.a 2011-03-13T07:42:30 yeah, it's a bit odd 2011-03-13T07:44:21 option 1 <3 2011-03-13T07:44:24 :p 2011-03-13T07:52:42 *** sigh has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-03-13T09:07:32 *** UncleVasya has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-03-13T09:36:13 @later tell sigh: Right now I can't tell if an ant dies in the last turn. Expect a correction in the replay format there. Maybe it could be an additional optional parameter as in the case of food items. If it is there, the ant did not survive the game. 2011-03-13T09:36:13 Frontier1: OK 2011-03-13T09:44:06 does the new replay format handle the case of an ant standing still for a turn? 2011-03-13T09:46:32 if it doesn't it needs to be extended to do that as well and if it does can all ants just stand still for the final game state? 2011-03-13T09:47:44 *** Naktibalda has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T09:56:45 *** delt0r___ has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T09:58:04 *** delt0r_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2011-03-13T10:05:45 janzert: That is possible. In that case we need to make the actual number of turns played a required parameter, too. I think we'll go with that. 2011-03-13T10:05:56 *** Frontier1 has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.) 2011-03-13T10:08:41 bss03: hey. don't have much time, but i'm here right now 2011-03-13T10:09:15 bss03: i'm sorry you're having trouble with the library. it doesn't have any documentation or examples yet. i assure you that once you see some example code it should just click :) 2011-03-13T10:10:20 *** Frontier has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T10:10:22 bss03: i was kidding about the "distro that doesn't suck" thing, but to answer your question anyway, i have tools on my arch linux box that allows me to install packages directly from hackage but manage them via arch's package manager 2011-03-13T10:15:06 Frontier: even if you make ants carry a number of turns played parameter there still needs to be a way to say an ant stood still on a turn (or turns) somewhere in the middle of its life 2011-03-13T10:15:56 janzert: the command string is in the form 'nsew-' where - means: stood still 2011-03-13T10:16:05 ahh ok 2011-03-13T10:16:38 so is there a reason ants that are alive in the last move can't just get a - for the final move? 2011-03-13T10:16:49 or final state rather 2011-03-13T11:02:55 *** mceier has quit IRC (Quit: leaving) 2011-03-13T11:41:53 *** iFire` is now known as iFire 2011-03-13T11:50:12 *** amriedle has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T12:02:08 janzert: The duration of the game is the the result of the longest running command string or score entry. So without a game duration in the parameter list the game would just become a turn longer. 2011-03-13T12:03:14 Frontier: how's the new format? 2011-03-13T12:03:37 McLeopold: Sleeping soundly in its cradle 2011-03-13T12:04:51 It is a bit of a ping-pong, because sigh and I are seldom online at the same time, but we have this new format described in the wiki which is compressing the data really well (<1:10) and the currently checked in visualizer understands it. 2011-03-13T12:05:22 nice 2011-03-13T12:05:33 did you need a game length parameter? 2011-03-13T12:05:37 (The engine is in sigh's repository.) Only the end game state is currently flawed. Either all ants die or no ant dies in the last turn 2011-03-13T12:06:07 Okay, hopefully I will get it merged soon 2011-03-13T12:06:38 That's the point. Basically the game length can be derieved from the data, but then we don't know why the command string of an ant ends with the game. Did it survive? Did it die? 2011-03-13T12:08:53 There is also food which can 'survive' the game and I have to process that again after the game duration is known. It works, but it could be simpler :) 2011-03-13T12:11:44 the 'end' turn should be defined up front, so you know 2011-03-13T12:13:51 Yep, you are right. 2011-03-13T12:19:39 antimatroid: we just switched to daylight savings time here, so you'll need up update your world clocks... 2011-03-13T12:22:55 *** amriedle has quit IRC (Quit: Lost terminal) 2011-03-13T12:46:19 Maybe they auto-adjust. Mine says 9:44 now 2011-03-13T12:55:51 *** kaemo has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2011-03-13T13:07:52 *** kaemo has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T13:13:04 *** _flag <_flag!~flag@69-165-173-172.dsl.teksavvy.com> has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T13:13:27 *** UncleVasya has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T13:34:02 @later tell jmcarthur I know you are busy with interview, so I don't mind the long delays. 2011-03-13T13:34:02 bss03: I think that worked... 2011-03-13T13:36:35 @later tell jmcarthur I actually think I have some example code for you to add, as a darcs patch. It took longer than it should have, but I worked through the library and wrote some documentation and an example Ant. 2011-03-13T13:36:35 bss03: Aye, aye, sir 2011-03-13T13:42:04 jmcarthur: I do wish you had stuck with packages that are in haskell-platform on Maverick, but that's a me issue. I think it will be simple enough to use as a starter kit. 2011-03-13T14:08:15 *** mceier has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T14:20:14 what's a point of squared radius? 2011-03-13T14:21:06 *** Frontier has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.) 2011-03-13T14:38:43 Naktibalda: I think they are using foo-squared values to try and avoid floating-point rounding issues or somesuch. 2011-03-13T14:41:29 nobody calculates area of circle so it's kind of useless 2011-03-13T14:52:52 *** Naktibalda has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2011-03-13T15:31:41 *** _flag <_flag!~flag@69-165-173-172.dsl.teksavvy.com> has quit IRC (Quit: Lost terminal) 2011-03-13T15:33:06 *** Naktibalda has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T15:42:25 *** Accoun has quit IRC () 2011-03-13T15:47:01 *** amstan has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T15:47:01 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o amstan 2011-03-13T15:52:24 *** Accoun has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T16:25:43 *** _flag <_flag!~flag@69-165-173-172.dsl.teksavvy.com> has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T16:34:28 *** amstan has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2011-03-13T16:35:51 Naktibalda: the radises are given squared so that all parameters are integers 2011-03-13T16:36:26 you can actually use the distance metric squared in your program if you want and not do any sqrt calculations ever, but i think it'd more intuitive to define stuff with the wrapped euclidean metric 2011-03-13T16:37:20 i'll be switching my distance metric in my actual bot 2011-03-13T16:37:44 you'll strictly have integer distances and much quicker calculations 2011-03-13T16:43:39 *** choas has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T16:54:51 *** UncleVasya has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-03-13T17:05:14 *** closedbracket has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T17:09:46 *** antimatroid has left #aichallenge 2011-03-13T17:14:02 *** _flag <_flag!~flag@69-165-173-172.dsl.teksavvy.com> has quit IRC (Quit: Lost terminal) 2011-03-13T17:15:29 *** _flag <_flag!~flag@69-165-173-172.dsl.teksavvy.com> has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T17:17:28 *** antimatroid has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T17:17:29 *** antimatroid has left #aichallenge 2011-03-13T17:20:01 *** Kingpin13 has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T17:32:11 *** antimatroid has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T17:33:45 *** antimatroid1 has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T17:34:13 fuuu ubuntu 2011-03-13T17:34:22 i downloaded it and it wont install 2011-03-13T17:36:20 *** antimatroid has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-03-13T17:38:33 *** antimatroid1 has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2011-03-13T17:38:49 *** closedbracket has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-03-13T17:39:28 *** amstan has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T17:39:28 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o amstan 2011-03-13T17:52:50 *** Frontier has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T17:54:03 *** closedbracket has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T17:56:49 *** delt0r_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T17:58:06 *** delt0r___ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-03-13T17:58:20 *** mceier has quit IRC (Quit: leaving) 2011-03-13T18:06:22 @later tell jmcarthur Your ants-bot library doesn't seem to build under GHC 6.12.1, which is what is going to be on the workers. The Monad instance for Etiher [Char] moved around. 2011-03-13T18:06:23 bss03: Yep. 2011-03-13T18:08:36 bss03: hey 2011-03-13T18:08:44 i don't remember even using that instance... 2011-03-13T18:09:32 last i checked it built with ghc 6.12.3, but i changed a few things since that 2011-03-13T18:09:40 and yeah, i need to check with 6.12.1 2011-03-13T18:10:07 jmcarthur: maybe I have old version or something. I thought I cloned last night. 2011-03-13T18:10:15 s/cloned/getted/ 2011-03-13T18:10:28 well, i haven't really pushed anything since i linked it to you i think 2011-03-13T18:10:47 GHC 6.12.1 claims you use it for calling mapM on line 109 of Internal.hs 2011-03-13T18:10:48 what module/line is it complaining about? 2011-03-13T18:10:54 * jmcarthur checks 2011-03-13T18:11:17 Defintiely using do notation on a function that returns Either String Parameters. 2011-03-13T18:11:24 ah yeah 2011-03-13T18:11:29 i forgot i did that 2011-03-13T18:11:41 alright, that'll be something to change when i get the chance 2011-03-13T18:12:02 * jmcarthur makes a note to install 6.12.1 for testing 2011-03-13T18:12:14 I'll probably mail you a patch bundle this evening. 2011-03-13T18:12:18 sweet 2011-03-13T18:12:39 I intend to get a compile working on Squeeze that includes an example of how to use the library. 2011-03-13T18:12:55 i really should have given you my example 2011-03-13T18:13:33 it wasn't anything amazing, but it would have gotten you up to speed more quickly 2011-03-13T18:13:43 sorry about that 2011-03-13T18:14:24 my basic plan is for people to compose a few run* functions depending on what features they need (and the starter could just have all of them by default so people don't need to worry about it) 2011-03-13T18:15:43 it may seem overkill to break it up like this, but i was finding the all-in-one version much more difficult to change and maintain 2011-03-13T18:17:00 the fact that you can pick and choose the parts you need is just a side effect of me fixing my bigger problem. i'm even considering just stacking all these transformers in the library and only exposing one monad in the first place 2011-03-13T18:17:33 which would have an interface closer to what i had before 2011-03-13T18:17:56 (which was a bit simpler) 2011-03-13T18:18:54 *** closedbracket has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-03-13T18:19:04 Right. My example does that first thing. Makes a type alias for the TurnT WaterT AntsOutputT AntsInput stack. 2011-03-13T18:19:37 yeah. that stack is awkward right now 2011-03-13T18:19:59 Then, I have the meat of the example, which basically just queries everything. and issues "go north" orders to every ant. 2011-03-13T18:20:16 (and Loops, with "advance >> exampleAnt") 2011-03-13T18:20:19 i also don't like the noncommutativity of AntsOutputT and AntsInputT, but i don't know what to do about that 2011-03-13T18:21:13 my example prefers north, then east, then south, then west, then no moving, for each ant, based on where water is 2011-03-13T18:21:19 Commutivity is a nice-to-have, as long as we have a stack order that works we can just document that. 2011-03-13T18:21:25 basically like the starter should be 2011-03-13T18:22:05 if i go through with collapsing it down to just one monad then commutativity isn't a big deal whatsoever 2011-03-13T18:22:41 I was a little surprised you didn't just have an AntsIO instead of that split. 2011-03-13T18:23:01 i did at first 2011-03-13T18:23:14 it was just hard to navigate the code, for me 2011-03-13T18:23:26 jmcarthur: my planetwars bot actually consisted of several bots chained together 2011-03-13T18:23:28 i got tired of trying to hunt down various, vaguely-named functions 2011-03-13T18:23:38 McLeopold: interesting! 2011-03-13T18:23:52 DefenseBot, AttackBot, FunnelBot and some others. 2011-03-13T18:24:15 with a little logic to choose priorities based on growth and ship difference with the enemy 2011-03-13T18:24:16 As long as you still export the Transformers and their associated type classes, it would probably be good for newbies if we used the Facade pattern. 2011-03-13T18:24:48 *** antimatroid has joined #aichallenge 2011-03-13T18:24:50 Where there's a "standard" Ants monad, and they just work inside that. 2011-03-13T18:24:55 I would love to rewrite it in haskell someday 2011-03-13T18:25:08 ergh, ubuntu My performance issues boiled down to me not knowing how to make my calculations lazy 2011-03-13T18:25:25 McLeopold: My bot was something like that, but written in Haskell. 2011-03-13T18:25:39 McLeopold: ah yeah, haskell would have made that the default :) 2011-03-13T18:26:04 will ubuntu install on an ntfs formatted hdd? 2011-03-13T18:26:08 bss03: yes, i think that's where i'm leaning 2011-03-13T18:26:21 antimatroid: did you ever find out how to make python lists behave as queues? 2011-03-13T18:26:23 Well, I didn't have MTL for PW, so I evnded up hacking to gether partial implementations of State etc. 2011-03-13T18:26:34 McLeopold: you have to use deques 2011-03-13T18:26:39 you don't 2011-03-13T18:26:47 antimatroid: ? 2011-03-13T18:26:48 how do you use a list like a queue? 2011-03-13T18:26:48 list.pop() and list.pop(0) 2011-03-13T18:27:00 that'll do it 2011-03-13T18:27:12 it's just faster with deque 2011-03-13T18:27:20 oh, so that is horribly slow? 2011-03-13T18:27:24 My queues are always finger trees. :) 2011-03-13T18:27:30 Data.Sequence for the win. 2011-03-13T18:27:33 finger trees are actually not very fast 2011-03-13T18:27:37 lists are single linked I think? 2011-03-13T18:27:39 queue