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2011-03-29T00:27:21  <namina> so pathfinding in ants: A* with LPA* for moving enemies?
2011-03-29T00:30:23  <antimatroid> ?
2011-03-29T00:31:33  <namina> just thinking it might be useful to modify paths after you've found them depending on enemy movements, so what's the best way to do it..
2011-03-29T00:32:05  <antimatroid> i've never really understood A*
2011-03-29T00:32:15  <antimatroid> i'm using my painting algorithm for path finding
2011-03-29T00:32:27  <antimatroid> well going to
2011-03-29T00:34:04  <namina> what are the memory limitations on the contest server going to be?
2011-03-29T00:44:13  <antimatroid> dunno, i'm a little worried about that one
2011-03-29T00:44:32  <antimatroid> you may want to delete state information you no longer need in your tree
2011-03-29T00:45:39  <sigh> antimatroid: most people don't keep explicit trees
2011-03-29T00:45:54  <sigh> so there's not much to delete
2011-03-29T00:50:11  <num1_> A* is magical
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2011-03-29T00:50:45  <sigh> depends on your heuristic :P
2011-03-29T00:51:05  <num1> true story, your heuristic can royally mess you up
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2011-03-29T01:40:44  <Stocha> @later tell McLeopold i think i tryed just that. But then i found i wanted the water seen last turn least and a place to put my init code (the one i want to activate when the server send the init message)
2011-03-29T01:40:44  <contestbot> Stocha: Job's done.
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2011-03-29T01:45:36  <sigh> Stocha: sounds like you want to tinker around in Ants.java?
2011-03-29T01:47:09  <sigh> oh, he was gone anyway
2011-03-29T01:47:28  <sigh> hmm... wtf is an Ilk
2011-03-29T01:47:38  <sigh> ants/dist/starter_bots/java/Ilk.java
2011-03-29T02:15:21  <Frontier1> I like ant, the build tool. In make I was dependent on grep and sed. ant has things like that included in a nice platform independent way
2011-03-29T02:16:58  <Frontier1> and it comes with bash-completion. so I type ant run<tab><enter> and it executes ant run-visualizer, which downloads rhino, compiles the classes and finally runs the visualizer with a sample replay file :)
2011-03-29T02:18:15  <Frontier1> All Java processes can run within the one ant process, so there is no additional VM warm-up time for executing a Java app.
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2011-03-29T03:43:26  <antimatroid> ... does anyone know of a good way of setting up c++ libraries so they're easy to use?
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2011-03-29T04:01:03  <Stocha> @later tell sigh an ilk seems to be the type of tile you have there (an ant being a type of tile, food, water etc)
2011-03-29T04:01:03  <contestbot> Stocha: Yes master!
2011-03-29T04:02:11  <sigh> Stocha: I know what the class *does*, but that doesn't explain the naming convention
2011-03-29T04:03:38  <sigh> Ilk seems like such an obscure word to use
2011-03-29T04:04:04  <Stocha> it was sure obscure to me
2011-03-29T04:04:22  <Stocha> until i looked deeper into it.
2011-03-29T04:04:44  <Stocha> then i wondered what Ilk could stand for. I though my english wasn't good enough :p
2011-03-29T04:05:01  <sigh> i've almost never heard it being used, other than as part of an idiom
2011-03-29T04:05:06  <Stocha> I have build a wrapper between my interface and McLeopold
2011-03-29T04:05:35  <Stocha> so far it doesn't work. I might do a little debugging. But i'm thinking of simply using the core parser. because it is quite straight forward.
2011-03-29T04:05:49  <sigh> ahh
2011-03-29T04:05:50  <Stocha> what's an ilk ?
2011-03-29T04:06:16  <Stocha> But then i wonder if i took the right code
2011-03-29T04:06:34  <Stocha> i went with the hunter bot and another one. Wich are not starters bots in fact
2011-03-29T04:07:05  <Stocha> Anyone i find that the parser is easy to understand. And there is the spec to support it :p
2011-03-29T04:07:08  <Stocha> anyway
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2011-03-29T04:08:51  <Stocha> mmm, it seems i forgot to issue the orders mm. i'll try to issue the order then. And see if it still doesn't work :p
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2011-03-29T05:48:56  <CIA-90> aichallenge: sigh epsilon * rb08cc79 / (ants/play_one_game.sh ants/playgame.py): Make profiling the engine easy - http://bit.ly/hT0l3b
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2011-03-29T06:13:20  <CIA-90> aichallenge: Marco Leise epsilon * ra1b56bd / (67 files in 11 dirs): visualizer: switched to Rhino for the applet / switched to ant for the build process / visualizer.jar can be used as applet or standalone viewer - http://bit.ly/f0X5Cu
2011-03-29T06:14:59  <Frontier1> sigh: man, that was one huge commit
2011-03-29T06:15:17  <sigh> huh?
2011-03-29T06:15:23  <sigh> oh, your commit :P
2011-03-29T06:16:48  <Frontier1> It should now be easier to test things with the visualizer. You can type "ant jar" now to compile the visualizer.
2011-03-29T06:17:20  <sigh> cool
2011-03-29T06:17:41  <Frontier1> And I'm happy that my JavaScript code got cleaner now without the messy if (java) ... else ... everywhere
2011-03-29T06:18:16  <sigh> :)
2011-03-29T06:18:34  <Frontier1> if java, wait for the applet to load, if java don't try to do pixel manipulation through JavaScript, if Java don't create new canvases as usual etc.
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2011-03-29T06:20:55  <Frontier1> Does anyone have an Internet Explorer <= 8 ready?
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2011-03-29T07:02:22  <Stocha> i am under the impression that the bot do not receive discovered water tiles
2011-03-29T07:02:43  <Stocha> but i don't know how to confirm that; Because i have so few mean of outputing anything
2011-03-29T07:02:48  <Stocha> maybe i should go with a log file.
2011-03-29T07:03:19  <Naktibalda> Why do you want to support Internet Explorer <= 8?
2011-03-29T07:03:43  <Naktibalda> I hope that participants are intelligent enough to upgrade or use a proper browser
2011-03-29T07:06:34  <Stocha> mm seems to work now
2011-03-29T07:06:53  <Stocha> i think i was resseting the bot state at each turn :p
2011-03-29T07:07:01  <Stocha> okay so my bot work yay.
2011-03-29T07:10:26  <Stocha> it takes 282 turns to beat the three hunter bots on the default map.
2011-03-29T07:12:54  <Stocha> i don't see that the score represents anything meaningfull
2011-03-29T07:14:20  <Stocha> the second winner is the one hidding during the game :p
2011-03-29T07:14:41  <Stocha> maybe i should put the game text one the forum somewhere ?
2011-03-29T07:14:51  <Stocha> so you guys can investigate or something.
2011-03-29T07:16:27  <Stocha> i should probably create a pastebin account
2011-03-29T07:21:44  <Stocha> here it is
2011-03-29T07:21:45  <Stocha> http://pastebin.com/xnFXPMwc
2011-03-29T07:21:56  <Stocha> i don't understand how the score is fair or anything
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2011-03-29T11:22:41  <Frontier> Oh Eclipse recognizes files modified outside the IDE on Windows :|
2011-03-29T11:23:07  <Frontier> and everything is so fast on Windows :(
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2011-03-29T12:06:24  <McLeopold> .
2011-03-29T12:13:55  <McLeopold> @later tell Stocha the scoring in that game seems totally fair to me.  Yellow did a much better job expanding at the beginning, so they got a better score than blue.
2011-03-29T12:13:55  <contestbot> McLeopold: OK
2011-03-29T12:15:18  <McLeopold> @later tell sigh an ilk is a type or class, but those words are often reserved in languages, and I did have to look it up, and it is my favorite word right now :)
2011-03-29T12:15:18  <contestbot> McLeopold: Job's done.
2011-03-29T12:15:55  <McLeopold> @later tell Stocha I'm interested to see how the java starter was insufficient for you.  Can you share code?
2011-03-29T12:15:55  <contestbot> McLeopold: Job's done.
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2011-03-29T12:35:19  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o amstan
2011-03-29T12:54:01  <amstan> contestbot: seen McLeopold
2011-03-29T12:54:01  <contestbot> amstan: McLeopold was last seen in #aichallenge 38 minutes and 5 seconds ago: <McLeopold> @later tell Stocha I'm interested to see how the java starter was insufficient for you.  Can you share code?
2011-03-29T12:58:13  <McLeopold> hi
2011-03-29T12:58:25  <McLeopold> amstan: what's up?
2011-03-29T12:58:36  <amstan> nm
2011-03-29T12:58:40  <amstan> just wondering what's going on
2011-03-29T12:58:44  <McLeopold> not much
2011-03-29T12:58:55  <amstan> how's our launch checklist?
2011-03-29T12:59:18  <McLeopold> still there
2011-03-29T13:02:14  <amstan> what's left?
2011-03-29T13:03:14  <McLeopold> the big stuff is matchmaking and jailing bots
2011-03-29T13:03:58  <McLeopold> I'm really close on the matchmaking being done.
2011-03-29T13:04:11  <McLeopold> But then I need to implement the ranking php pages.
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2011-03-29T13:52:00  <namina> Frontier: you there?
2011-03-29T13:55:40  <namina> Frontier: I'm trying to build the visualiser with ant but compile fails with can't find netscape.javascript.JSObject
2011-03-29T13:55:43  <namina> any ideas?
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2011-03-29T14:27:14  <janzert> namina: I haven't built the visualizer, but sounds like you don't have Rhino http://www.mozilla.org/rhino/
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2011-03-29T14:33:30  <namina> janzert: hmmm installed Rhino but it's still giving me the same errors
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2011-03-29T14:34:27  <namina> I think the build script actually downloads Rhino anyway
2011-03-29T14:38:20  <janzert> I guess make sure it's on your classpath (or ant adds it)
2011-03-29T14:38:37  <janzert> beyond that I don't have any idea
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2011-03-29T14:57:19  <namina> aaah. my java-home didn't have a plugin.jar for some reason... working now
2011-03-29T14:57:33  <namina> janzert:thanks
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2011-03-29T16:04:32  <McLeopold> antimatroid: how about maps with random water?
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2011-03-29T17:23:34  <Stocha> @last seen McLeopold
2011-03-29T17:23:34  <contestbot> Stocha: (last [--{from,in,on,with,without,regexp} <value>] [--nolimit]) -- Returns the last message matching the given criteria. --from requires a nick from whom the message came; --in requires a channel the message was sent to; --on requires a network the message was sent on; --with requires some string that had to be in the message; --regexp requires a regular expression the message must match; (1 more message)
2011-03-29T17:23:46  <Stocha> @last McLeopold
2011-03-29T17:23:46  <contestbot> Stocha: (last [--{from,in,on,with,without,regexp} <value>] [--nolimit]) -- Returns the last message matching the given criteria. --from requires a nick from whom the message came; --in requires a channel the message was sent to; --on requires a network the message was sent on; --with requires some string that had to be in the message; --regexp requires a regular expression the message must match; (1 more message)
2011-03-29T17:23:59  <Stocha> @last on McLeopold
2011-03-29T17:23:59  <contestbot> Stocha: (last [--{from,in,on,with,without,regexp} <value>] [--nolimit]) -- Returns the last message matching the given criteria. --from requires a nick from whom the message came; --in requires a channel the message was sent to; --on requires a network the message was sent on; --with requires some string that had to be in the message; --regexp requires a regular expression the message must match; (1 more message)
2011-03-29T17:24:06  <Stocha> @last from McLeopold
2011-03-29T17:24:06  <contestbot> Stocha: (last [--{from,in,on,with,without,regexp} <value>] [--nolimit]) -- Returns the last message matching the given criteria. --from requires a nick from whom the message came; --in requires a channel the message was sent to; --on requires a network the message was sent on; --with requires some string that had to be in the message; --regexp requires a regular expression the message must match; (1 more message)
2011-03-29T17:24:18  <Stocha> @last --from McLeopold
2011-03-29T17:24:18  <contestbot> Stocha: [16:04:32] <McLeopold> antimatroid: how about maps with random water?
2011-03-29T17:26:30  <Stocha> @later tell McLeopold i'm not 100% sure that i was based over the starter bot now. I made serveral mistakes also. ILK is an obscure term for sure. Then i need the list of sent water tiles wich i believe you don't provide. (but your provided a map state, which i though starter bot shouldn't). Anyway i'm not sure anymore about any comment i made about the starter bot :p  It works now anyway.
2011-03-29T17:26:30  <contestbot> Stocha: Job's done.
2011-03-29T17:26:50  <amstan> Stocha: try using a personal message with the bot next time
2011-03-29T17:27:06  <Stocha> how do i do that amstan ?
2011-03-29T17:27:24  <amstan> Stocha: depends on your client
2011-03-29T17:27:29  <amstan> look it up
2011-03-29T17:27:47  <Stocha> http link on the forum
2011-03-29T17:29:23  <Stocha> i'm bit tired so i had a hard time with the last seen command. Which maybe doesn't exists.
2011-03-29T17:29:33  <amstan> you mean:
2011-03-29T17:29:37  <amstan> @seen Stocha
2011-03-29T17:29:37  <contestbot> amstan: Stocha was last seen in #aichallenge 13 seconds ago: <Stocha> i'm bit tired so i had a hard time with the last seen command. Which maybe doesn't exists.
2011-03-29T17:29:49  <Stocha> ah it's not last then :p
2011-03-29T17:30:00  <Stocha> @seen McLeopold
2011-03-29T17:30:00  <contestbot> Stocha: McLeopold was last seen in #aichallenge 1 hour, 25 minutes, and 28 seconds ago: <McLeopold> antimatroid: how about maps with random water?
2011-03-29T17:33:33  <Stocha> @seen antimatroid
2011-03-29T17:33:33  <contestbot> Stocha: antimatroid was last seen in #aichallenge 13 hours, 50 minutes, and 7 seconds ago: <antimatroid> ... does anyone know of a good way of setting up c++ libraries so they're easy to use?
2011-03-29T17:34:48  <Stocha> Still i think the only fair map is playing the same map twice with swapped position. 2 win wins. 1win/1loss doesn't count.
2011-03-29T17:35:10  <Stocha> it only works with 2 players.
2011-03-29T17:35:28  <amstan> Stocha: what's wrong with antimatroid's symmetric maps?
2011-03-29T17:35:38  <Stocha> nothing i didn't tryed them yet.
2011-03-29T17:35:58  <Stocha> except that they are symmetric. And probably more complex than simple asymmetric maps
2011-03-29T17:36:56  <Stocha> At the moment, i'm not convinced with multiplayer. And i am convinced that variety in map generation is a key feature for the contest.
2011-03-29T17:37:21  <Stocha> I don't see what symmetric maps add but more complexity.
2011-03-29T17:37:33  <Stocha> if you want fairness you'd apply the swapping technique p
2011-03-29T17:37:50  <amstan> so.. what's wrong with playing once on a symmetric map?
2011-03-29T17:37:50  <Stocha> it eliminate all map noise.
2011-03-29T17:37:59  <Stocha> that's wrong :p
2011-03-29T17:38:07  <amstan> instead of playing twice, the same map
2011-03-29T17:38:11  <Stocha> my testings shows that it bias the result.
2011-03-29T17:38:13  <amstan> and limiting yourself to 2 players
2011-03-29T17:38:23  <Stocha> i'm talking about 2 players anyway.
2011-03-29T17:38:24  <antimatroid> Stocha: 2 players is a different game
2011-03-29T17:38:25  <amstan> you just said you haven't tried symmetric maps
2011-03-29T17:38:29  <antimatroid> people want to play with n-players
2011-03-29T17:38:46  <Stocha> oh sorry i missread
2011-03-29T17:38:55  <antimatroid> there is more of a balancing act to not going out all guns blazing if there's more than 2 players
2011-03-29T17:39:03  <antimatroid> making it much more difficult to get right
2011-03-29T17:39:05  <Stocha> i though you asked what was wrong with assymetric maps :p
2011-03-29T17:39:30  <Stocha> what people want to play with n players ?
2011-03-29T17:39:44  <Stocha> who would want his bot ranked in n-player games ?
2011-03-29T17:39:49  <Stocha> only
2011-03-29T17:39:54  <amstan> Stocha: half of the difficulties of getting the new contest up is the n-player games
2011-03-29T17:40:03  <Stocha> i noticed it
2011-03-29T17:40:04  <amstan> we're going to have more than 2 players on the same game
2011-03-29T17:40:26  <amstan> so we got rid of elo, and replaced it with trueskill
2011-03-29T17:40:29  <Stocha> and i find nice that you do multiplayer. But i certainly don't like the prospect of my bot being judge over n-player games.
2011-03-29T17:40:52  <Stocha> it would be a nice side contest metric tough :p
2011-03-29T17:40:57  <Stocha> though
2011-03-29T17:41:27  <amstan> Stocha: even with 2 player games, it's a pretty bad idea to have unsymmetric maps
2011-03-29T17:41:42  <Stocha> I guess i'll participate anyway. But i really don't think that n-player metrics can be meaningful at the moment.
2011-03-29T17:41:58  <Stocha> with 2 player games, the swapping trick is good.
2011-03-29T17:42:08  <Stocha> it eliminates bad maps
2011-03-29T17:42:22  <amstan> if you have a fairly unbalanced map, and you play 2 games on it(swapping players), no matter what the players are you'll get draws
2011-03-29T17:42:22  <Stocha> but if one bot is strong enougth he'll still get victories.
2011-03-29T17:42:37  <Stocha> yes, then you discard it.
2011-03-29T17:42:39  <Stocha> that's the point
2011-03-29T17:42:59  <Stocha> so your wins are true wins;
2011-03-29T17:43:06  <Stocha> not biased by any map advantage.
2011-03-29T17:43:29  <Stocha> I see no better way of judging a bot performances.
2011-03-29T17:43:41  <Stocha> that's the one i'll use in my private testing.
2011-03-29T17:43:57  <Stocha> at least when i want to know the bot strength
2011-03-29T17:44:06  <amstan> Stocha: ok.. let's play the best bot in the contest, vs the worst bot in the contest
2011-03-29T17:44:10  <Stocha> but then i might rather want to know the bot expected performances :p
2011-03-29T17:44:10  <amstan> on this map: http://pastebin.com/i0mKHScj
2011-03-29T17:44:22  <amstan> you'll get a draw
2011-03-29T17:44:30  <amstan> by playing them twice
2011-03-29T17:44:38  <Stocha> sure
2011-03-29T17:44:42  <Stocha> and then you discard the result
2011-03-29T17:44:47  <Stocha> what's wrong about it ?
2011-03-29T17:44:52  <Stocha> you only count wins.
2011-03-29T17:44:55  <Stocha> and losses
2011-03-29T17:45:04  <amstan> so.. what's the point of wasting 2 games of cpu time then? if you're not getting any extra data?
2011-03-29T17:45:06  <Stocha> a win being when you win on both side of the map
2011-03-29T17:45:09  <amstan> cpu time is important
2011-03-29T17:45:32  <Stocha> you don't get extra data if the map is not in the range of bot difference strength
2011-03-29T17:46:02  <amstan> so.. what's wrong with simplifying everything, and just running all the games on symmetric maps
2011-03-29T17:46:04  <amstan> only once?
2011-03-29T17:46:04  <Stocha> the map you gave is such that it never gives data
2011-03-29T17:46:11  <Stocha> but that would be fairly rare.
2011-03-29T17:46:19  <amstan> my map qualifiies as a valid unsymmetric map
2011-03-29T17:46:23  <amstan> there's nothing wrong with it
2011-03-29T17:46:24  <Stocha> it's not the same of course.
2011-03-29T17:46:33  <Stocha> symmetric maps puts constraints on the maps.
2011-03-29T17:46:41  <Stocha> it complicate things.
2011-03-29T17:46:48  <amstan> yes, but they make every game 2 times faster
2011-03-29T17:46:55  <Stocha> and doesn't garatees fairness probably.
2011-03-29T17:47:04  <Stocha> more than two time faster
2011-03-29T17:47:19  <Stocha> because with my process you could play 1000 games and theortically get no information.
2011-03-29T17:47:28  <Stocha> except that you would know that you didn't get any
2011-03-29T17:47:32  <Stocha> wich would lend some.
2011-03-29T17:48:00  <Stocha> You go two times faster, but you have more noise.
2011-03-29T17:48:06  <amstan> i disagree
2011-03-29T17:48:11  <Stocha> and more complicated map generation.
2011-03-29T17:48:13  <amstan> you have more noise with random maps
2011-03-29T17:48:18  <amstan> and you need more time too
2011-03-29T17:48:21  <Stocha> Not if you swap.
2011-03-29T17:48:34  <amstan> we already have the map generator done, so that's not a problem
2011-03-29T17:48:39  <Stocha> i'm not even sure you need more time in order to know wich bot is stronger.
2011-03-29T17:48:54  <Stocha> with swapping, when you got 3 wins, you already have information.
2011-03-29T17:49:07  <Stocha> because the maps are not guaranted to be fair.
2011-03-29T17:49:15  <Stocha> 3 consecutives win is meaningful
2011-03-29T17:49:18  <amstan> how can a symmetric map not be fair?
2011-03-29T17:49:35  <Stocha> i think it's possible.
2011-03-29T17:49:41  <Stocha> it sure is win n-players :p
2011-03-29T17:49:52  <Stocha> but it would be bot more complicated
2011-03-29T17:50:02  <Stocha> and in fact the fairness would reduce the information given.
2011-03-29T17:50:18  <amstan> i'm not convinced..
2011-03-29T17:50:21  <Stocha> because ties are unlikely to happen.
2011-03-29T17:50:25  <Stocha> maybe i'm just wrong.
2011-03-29T17:50:34  <antimatroid> Stocha: draws aren't discarded
2011-03-29T17:50:41  <Stocha> it's not a big concern. Only that the map generation is simple is of real concern to me.
2011-03-29T17:50:51  <amstan> that's the problem... ties are unlikely to happen on non-symmetric maps... even if it was meant to be a tie
2011-03-29T17:50:55  <antimatroid> that would punish the higher ranked bot
2011-03-29T17:51:02  <Stocha> and then that the bot are not judge on 1vs1 performances is a BIG concern to me.
2011-03-29T17:51:13  <antimatroid> but the game isn't 1vs1
2011-03-29T17:51:23  <antimatroid> why would you rank bots in a game that is not 1v1 with 1v1?
2011-03-29T17:51:27  <antimatroid> that makes no sense whatsoever
2011-03-29T17:51:30  <amstan> antimatroid: he doesn't like that we're ranking the bots in a n-player situation
2011-03-29T17:51:39  <Stocha> The game has randomness built in.
2011-03-29T17:51:41  <antimatroid> but that's the point, to rank them with n players
2011-03-29T17:51:43  <Stocha> so two perfect bot, won't tie.
2011-03-29T17:51:48  <Stocha> except by chance.
2011-03-29T17:51:55  <Stocha> you won't go exploring the same way.
2011-03-29T17:52:08  <Stocha> so that will disrupt the symetry
2011-03-29T17:52:19  <antimatroid> even better
2011-03-29T17:52:22  <Stocha> and then even if you did, your might do things differently
2011-03-29T17:52:37  <Stocha> so ties will not happen with "fair" map
2011-03-29T17:52:48  <Stocha> unless you do plenty of game one those maps
2011-03-29T17:53:04  <Stocha> and you'll have close win/loss ratio between the two same strength bots.
2011-03-29T17:53:52  <antimatroid> have you ever played galcon with n players?
2011-03-29T17:53:53  <Stocha> I don't like that n-player ranking will be the sole ranking, and the sole goal of the contest.
2011-03-29T17:53:56  <antimatroid> it's not the same game as with 2 players
2011-03-29T17:54:01  <Stocha> i never played galcon.
2011-03-29T17:54:05  <antimatroid> people want to play an n player game, it is completely different
2011-03-29T17:54:17  <antimatroid> your strategy has to be completely different
2011-03-29T17:54:23  <Stocha> does that help them know their strength ?
2011-03-29T17:54:33  <antimatroid> what do you mean by strength?
2011-03-29T17:54:56  <antimatroid> your strength is how well you perform in lots of games yes?
2011-03-29T17:55:00  <Stocha> that's too difficult a question. Let's says that i want to know if my bot is stronger than the other
2011-03-29T17:55:03  <antimatroid> if you do well, then you know you're quite strong
2011-03-29T17:55:09  <Stocha> and see no easy way to do so with n-players.
2011-03-29T17:55:18  <antimatroid> it is stronger if it wins more often given the game
2011-03-29T17:55:21  <Stocha> unless it is so much stronger that there is no comparison.
2011-03-29T17:55:34  <Stocha> luck will be the sole factor.
2011-03-29T17:55:42  <antimatroid> no it wont
2011-03-29T17:55:57  <Stocha> that's the impression i have though.
2011-03-29T17:56:04  <Stocha> luck plays to much a role on n-player
2011-03-29T17:56:16  <Stocha> luck in pairing, luck in placement and so on.
2011-03-29T17:56:35  <Stocha> and then you might have some randomness because there existe a rock paper scisor strategy
2011-03-29T17:56:45  <Stocha> so you have to pick the righ map for each nplayer maps.
2011-03-29T17:56:45  <antimatroid> with lots of games, each bot should get a decent play from lots of different kinds of starting positions
2011-03-29T17:56:57  <antimatroid> the stronger bots will be the ones that manage to place higher in the most games
2011-03-29T17:57:06  <McLeopold> hey guys, what's happening?
2011-03-29T17:57:22  <Stocha> i think it'll only be about who eats food fastest
2011-03-29T17:57:27  <Stocha> and most bot will.
2011-03-29T17:57:35  <Stocha> so there will be nothing but luck in the ranking.
2011-03-29T17:57:49  <McLeopold> http://velocity.uwaterloo.ca/news/23-year-old-donates-us1-million-to-support-university-of-waterloo-student-entrepreneurs
2011-03-29T17:57:51  <Stocha> Stocha is advocating for 1vs1 with the ranking of bots :p
2011-03-29T17:58:23  <antimatroid> Stocha is advocating changing to game to 1vs1
2011-03-29T17:58:48  <antimatroid> McLeopold: nice find :P
2011-03-29T18:00:24  <antimatroid> amstan: get jeff onto that :P
2011-03-29T18:00:34  <amstan> antimatroid: onto what?
2011-03-29T18:00:35  <antimatroid> although he may not qualify anymore as a non student..
2011-03-29T18:00:38  <Stocha> the ratings of 1vs1 games have plenty of data/thesis on them
2011-03-29T18:00:44  <antimatroid> McLeopolds link
2011-03-29T18:00:44  <Stocha> i don't think that the same apply to n-players
2011-03-29T18:00:58  <amstan> antimatroid: what about jeff and the link?
2011-03-29T18:01:18  <antimatroid> you guys are waterloo related, this contest needs money, put 2 and 2 together :P
2011-03-29T18:01:41  <Stocha> that make 3 ?
2011-03-29T18:01:50  <antimatroid> it doesn't say they need to be for profit ventures
2011-03-29T18:02:09  <Stocha> now the contest will be n-player with money prize ?
2011-03-29T18:02:14  <amstan> antimatroid: done
2011-03-29T18:02:33  <Stocha> past contests were 1vs1 with no money :p
2011-03-29T18:02:44  <Stocha> and they were quite successful
2011-03-29T18:02:52  <Stocha> maybe because google was sponsor
2011-03-29T18:02:56  <amstan> Stocha: prizes is not the only place that needs money
2011-03-29T18:02:58  <Stocha> google has a name
2011-03-29T18:03:02  <antimatroid> lots of people have asked for n player
2011-03-29T18:03:07  <Stocha> okay i'm fine with it then :p
2011-03-29T18:03:13  <antimatroid> googles name has helped a lot, it would be a shame to lose that
2011-03-29T18:03:13  <Stocha> money that don't go to prize
2011-03-29T18:03:24  <antimatroid> Stocha: money is needed for servers
2011-03-29T18:03:30  <Stocha> how much of the 5000 contestant asked for n-players ?
2011-03-29T18:03:43  <Stocha> i'm fine with money for servers :p
2011-03-29T18:03:50  <antimatroid> look in the forums, i've not seen anyone else complain about n players
2011-03-29T18:03:59  <Stocha> you didn't look to hard then.
2011-03-29T18:04:04  <antimatroid> i wouldn't be opposed to some money prizes, but it's far less important than server money atm
2011-03-29T18:04:19  <Stocha> the forum are no-mans-land also.
2011-03-29T18:04:56  <Stocha> i wanted to be there because i hoped there would be 5000 other bot submission
2011-03-29T18:05:01  <Stocha> and i find that prospect fun.
2011-03-29T18:05:15  <antimatroid> there will be lots of submissions
2011-03-29T18:05:34  <Stocha> if the context is the same as last contest, then sure there will be
2011-03-29T18:06:02  <Stocha> if you change the sponsor, go for n-player, go for brand new untryed game ...
2011-03-29T18:06:08  <Stocha> that's some pretty big differences.
2011-03-29T18:06:12  <antimatroid> context? look at the difference in context from tron to planet wars
2011-03-29T18:06:21  <amstan> Stocha: what does sponsor has to do with rankings?
2011-03-29T18:06:28  <antimatroid> you went from a game with maximum 4 moves per turn (3 after the first) to a game with thousands of moves per turn
2011-03-29T18:06:53  <Stocha> it doesn't do with ranking there; It does with lots of people submitting bots.
2011-03-29T18:07:28  <Stocha> still there were so common things.
2011-03-29T18:07:41  <antimatroid> planet wars wasn't common
2011-03-29T18:07:47  <Stocha> like goog being sponsor, ranking being 1vs1, and games being tryed for years.
2011-03-29T18:07:51  <antimatroid> and i actually expect it to be easier to write a half decent bot for ants than planet wars
2011-03-29T18:07:55  <McLeopold> antimatroid: new map types http://pastebin.com/yXd8Wi9G
2011-03-29T18:08:13  <antimatroid> as far as i know google is still a sponsor, as long as they're happy to have the name sitting there i don't see it being removed
2011-03-29T18:08:27  <Stocha> nice maze :)
2011-03-29T18:08:40  <antimatroid> McLeopold: :D
2011-03-29T18:09:08  <antimatroid> can i suggest we consider ensuring a 2x2 block can traverse the map right from the start?
2011-03-29T18:09:08  <Stocha> how is it done ?
2011-03-29T18:09:19  <Stocha> that's sorry
2011-03-29T18:09:21  <antimatroid> i'm a little worried about stalemates otherwise regardless of the rules
2011-03-29T18:09:28  <Stocha> because gates are very important and fun.
2011-03-29T18:10:19  <Stocha> managing the best flow through a gate is a challenge.
2011-03-29T18:10:22  <antimatroid> actually, that came up pretty well anyway
2011-03-29T18:11:03  <Stocha> is it symmetric ?
2011-03-29T18:11:17  <McLeopold> no, but it tessellates
2011-03-29T18:11:37  <antimatroid> McLeopold: I take it that's done with linear interpolation?
2011-03-29T18:11:42  <Stocha> you mean that you can put up/down left/right ?
2011-03-29T18:11:57  * McLeopold looks up term
2011-03-29T18:12:25  <antimatroid> it looks like you've randomly gone around drawing linear lines
2011-03-29T18:12:44  <antimatroid> you could even set the width of those to go from 1-3
2011-03-29T18:12:52  <antimatroid> so walls can fully block in some instances
2011-03-29T18:12:59  <McLeopold> no, it's more like the painting algo
2011-03-29T18:13:34  <McLeopold> your analyze maps code with the squares at a same distance being walls
2011-03-29T18:13:52  <McLeopold> then I create a node graph and run it through a maze generator
2011-03-29T18:14:14  <Stocha> so this is a maze then
2011-03-29T18:14:16  <Stocha> :p
2011-03-29T18:14:18  <McLeopold> yes
2011-03-29T18:14:22  <Stocha> i have to go, see you later.
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2011-03-29T18:14:51  <McLeopold> I've got some variables to tweak the openness of the maze
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2011-03-29T18:14:56  <antimatroid> interesting
2011-03-29T18:15:02  <antimatroid> i like them
2011-03-29T18:15:12  <antimatroid> can you do symmetric? :P
2011-03-29T18:15:26  <McLeopold> yup, just tessellate
2011-03-29T18:16:23  <antimatroid> randomly, i'm pretty keen of spawnradius = 1
2011-03-29T18:16:36  <antimatroid> it means you actually need to get to the region containing food to get it
2011-03-29T18:17:36  <amstan> antimatroid: i also want point symmetric maps, and rotational symmetric maps
2011-03-29T18:17:46  <amstan> antimatroid: wrapless is easiest
2011-03-29T18:17:56  <antimatroid> amstan: it's hard to do that with n players
2011-03-29T18:17:58  <amstan> the point symmetric maps should handle 2^k players
2011-03-29T18:18:00  <amstan> no, it's not
2011-03-29T18:18:32  <amstan> make your map in a 45 45 90 triangle, then reflect it once to get a quarter of a map, then twice more to complete the map
2011-03-29T18:18:38  <amstan> you get 8 players
2011-03-29T18:18:47  <antimatroid> yeah one can do that
2011-03-29T18:18:55  <antimatroid> but we're using all kinds of different players
2011-03-29T18:19:33  <antimatroid> you are going to ruin the fair amount of either number of players in a game or type of symmetry
2011-03-29T18:19:50  <McLeopold> amstan: that's the same as a 2x4 block
2011-03-29T18:20:04  <antimatroid> McLeopold: it is, but the symmetry is different
2011-03-29T18:20:23  <amstan> McLeopold: what's a 2x4 block?
2011-03-29T18:20:43  <antimatroid> amstan: i also have the problem of not wanting to do the square lattice maps
2011-03-29T18:20:45  <McLeopold> a 2x4 block of a tessellation
2011-03-29T18:20:46  <antimatroid> as everyone hated them
2011-03-29T18:20:56  <antimatroid> but i think it will work anyway
2011-03-29T18:21:06  <amstan> i'm not talking about tesselation
2011-03-29T18:21:13  <antimatroid> yes you are
2011-03-29T18:21:17  <amstan> i'm talking about maps like we had in tron
2011-03-29T18:21:43  <amstan> but tron was only one axis/point of symmetry
2011-03-29T18:21:44  <antimatroid> like what sigh drew the other day?
2011-03-29T18:21:47  <amstan> this is going to be more
2011-03-29T18:21:49  <antimatroid> oh okay
2011-03-29T18:21:49  <amstan> idk, link?
2011-03-29T18:21:55  <antimatroid> hmm dunno
2011-03-29T18:22:09  <amstan> that java mapgen guy made some too
2011-03-29T18:22:13  <sigh> what did I draw?
2011-03-29T18:22:13  <McLeopold> amstan: if you tessellate every other row as a mirror image, than that's what you get
2011-03-29T18:22:16  <amstan> but he didn't come
2011-03-29T18:22:20  <sigh> antimatroid?
2011-03-29T18:22:23  <antimatroid> sigh: that map with 8 players starting symmetrically
2011-03-29T18:22:29  <amstan> sigh: point symmetric maps
2011-03-29T18:22:36  <sigh> I didn't draw anything
2011-03-29T18:22:45  <antimatroid> it was ascii :P
2011-03-29T18:22:59  <sigh> I can't remember this
2011-03-29T18:23:20  <antimatroid> .ab.
2011-03-29T18:23:20  <antimatroid> c..d
2011-03-29T18:23:20  <antimatroid> e..f
2011-03-29T18:23:20  <antimatroid> .hi.
2011-03-29T18:23:39  <antimatroid> g doesn't exist
2011-03-29T18:23:42  <amstan> antimatroid: that one
2011-03-29T18:24:16  <amstan> you start with a 45 45 90 triangle:
2011-03-29T18:24:17  <antimatroid> you could tesselate that i think
2011-03-29T18:24:18  <amstan> .a
2011-03-29T18:24:20  <amstan>  .
2011-03-29T18:24:27  <amstan> then you reflect it a few times
2011-03-29T18:24:30  <amstan> .a
2011-03-29T18:24:31  <amstan> b.
2011-03-29T18:24:46  <amstan> .ac.
2011-03-29T18:24:53  <amstan> b..d
2011-03-29T18:25:02  <amstan> then once more and get what sigh sent
2011-03-29T18:25:05  <McLeopold> ..hi
2011-03-29T18:25:05  <McLeopold> ..ab
2011-03-29T18:25:06  <McLeopold> dc..
2011-03-29T18:25:06  <McLeopold> fe..
2011-03-29T18:25:16  <amstan> McLeopold: that's not a fair map
2011-03-29T18:25:16  <McLeopold> that's the same as antimatroid, just shifted
2011-03-29T18:25:28  <sigh> I have no idea what you guys are talking about...
2011-03-29T18:25:38  <amstan> sigh: they use weird terms
2011-03-29T18:25:54  <antimatroid> i make my terms up as i go along :)
2011-03-29T18:26:06  <sigh> amstan: no, I don't get why you guys think I had anything to do with this
2011-03-29T18:26:18  <amstan> sigh: idk.. antimatroid said that
2011-03-29T18:26:20  <antimatroid> sigh: i must have been wrong as to who linked me :P
2011-03-29T18:26:30  <amstan> sigh: but yes... actually.. your map example is what i was talking about
2011-03-29T18:26:35  <McLeopold> amstan: can you see that my map and antimatroids are the same?
2011-03-29T18:26:36  <antimatroid> McLeopold: that map is fair
2011-03-29T18:26:51  <sigh> can someone kindly link me to my map example?
2011-03-29T18:26:59  <amstan> sigh: wait.. nvm, antimatroid sent that map
2011-03-29T18:26:59  <antimatroid> sigh: no
2011-03-29T18:27:09  <sigh> -______________-
2011-03-29T18:27:11  <antimatroid> amstan: ?
2011-03-29T18:27:16  <amstan> sigh: lol, my mistake
2011-03-29T18:27:20  <sigh> :P
2011-03-29T18:27:33  <antimatroid> McLeopold: that second map is the same and fair i think
2011-03-29T18:27:38  <McLeopold> yes
2011-03-29T18:28:12  <McLeopold> so, you can see that tessellating and mirroring should give you almost any symmetry you would want
2011-03-29T18:28:12  <amstan> oh.. it is fair, nvm
2011-03-29T18:28:18  <amstan> i'm just not used to the wrapping
2011-03-29T18:28:47  <Zannick> indeed, i was about to point that out
2011-03-29T18:28:50  <Zannick> took me a moment, too
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2011-03-29T18:54:23  <sigh> McLeopold: python starter is still using the broken vision algorithm
2011-03-29T19:00:07  <McLeopold> sigh: I know
2011-03-29T19:00:24  <McLeopold> I think you are right that it ought to be the naive method for the starter
2011-03-29T19:00:25  <sigh> ok :)
2011-03-29T19:00:46  <sigh> well, even the engine uses the naive method, it just caches things aggressivly
2011-03-29T19:00:48  <McLeopold> I still want to try and fix the painting one, and at least I know why it is broken
2011-03-29T19:01:13  <sigh> McLeopold: I've got a fixed version in the util directory
2011-03-29T19:01:17  <sigh> it's still slower
2011-03-29T19:02:00  <McLeopold> do you have a test that will give the times of the 2 methods for a similar map?
2011-03-29T19:02:28  <sigh> https://github.com/aichallenge/aichallenge/blob/epsilon/ants/util/vision_compare.py#L155
2011-03-29T19:02:35  <sigh> yes, the script does all that
2011-03-29T19:03:04  <sigh> just muck around with that script if you want to test vision algoritms
2011-03-29T19:03:35  <McLeopold> so the fix was to add diagonals?
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2011-03-29T19:04:07  <sigh> McLeopold: more than that
2011-03-29T19:04:41  <sigh> the original painting algorithm implicitly created a priority queue weighted by manhattan distance
2011-03-29T19:05:18  <sigh> in vision_by_distance I fixed that by making the priority queue use euclidean distance, but that still had bugs where an ants vision was still blocked
2011-03-29T19:05:24  <sigh> this was fixed with the diagonals
2011-03-29T19:05:57  <sigh> also made the queue efficient by using only standard arrray ops
2011-03-29T19:06:29  <McLeopold> I think the root was that if you have already seen a square, it would only choose one ant to use for further comparisons if the square painted more
2011-03-29T19:06:55  <McLeopold> the euclidean distance probably fixed that piece
2011-03-29T19:07:04  <sigh> McLeopold: keeping track of multiple ants made everything really slow
2011-03-29T19:07:06  <sigh> we tried that
2011-03-29T19:07:30  <McLeopold> yeah, I know, what's the point of painting if there is no pruning?
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2011-03-29T19:08:02  <sigh> either way, vision is really tricky if you are not doing it the obvious way
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2011-03-29T19:08:30  <McLeopold> I'm going to try a kdtree with nearest neighbor queries :)
2011-03-29T19:08:34  <sigh> I would not bet my life that that vision_by_distance_2 is bug free :P
2011-03-29T19:08:42  <sigh> McLeopold: sure :)
2011-03-29T19:09:07  <sigh> McLeopold: I don't think you will get any faster than what the engine does with that method though
2011-03-29T19:09:10  <McLeopold> if it is close to the same speed, it should scale better
2011-03-29T19:09:22  <McLeopold> scale with more ants
2011-03-29T19:09:47  <McLeopold> the slow part is building the tree, which is a factor of how many ants there are
2011-03-29T19:09:59  <sigh> still don't think you will beat it in any situation the game encounters :P
2011-03-29T19:10:18  <sigh> and anyway, the engine vision can still be optimised a bit
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2011-03-29T19:10:21  <McLeopold> I really think I will
2011-03-29T19:10:25  <sigh> :)
2011-03-29T19:10:40  <sigh> I'll be interested to see your impl in any case
2011-03-29T19:10:41  <McLeopold> When I first switched from naive to painting, there was a 25% increase in speed for my test games
2011-03-29T19:10:56  <McLeopold> I find it odd that you don't get the same result
2011-03-29T19:11:42  <janzert> naive, naive *is* really bade :P
2011-03-29T19:11:44  <sigh> McLeopold: I've done a lot of other optimisations to the engine some which would affect vision, so that might have helped
2011-03-29T19:11:47  <janzert> optimized naive is much better
2011-03-29T19:11:55  <janzert> bad even
2011-03-29T19:12:11  <sigh> McLeopold: current engine is 2 times faster than before I was working on it
2011-03-29T19:12:17  <McLeopold> woot
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2011-03-29T19:13:03  <sigh> btw, don't create string by continually using += if you care about efficiency :P
2011-03-29T19:13:39  <sigh> (as an aside)
2011-03-29T19:16:00  <sigh> McLeopold: oh also, I added a --profile option to playgame to make profiling easier, otherwise you have to manually turn off psyco and stuff
2011-03-29T19:16:40  <sigh> so just use that once any vision updates have passed through vision_compare.py
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2011-03-29T20:05:05  <McLeopold> @later tell amstan it would be nice to have a "getting started" section for each language at some point with instructions on setting up a basic programming environment
2011-03-29T20:05:05  <contestbot> McLeopold: As you wish.
2011-03-29T20:05:43  <amstan> McLeopold: sounds good
2011-03-29T20:06:02  <amstan> McLeopold: make it a comment on the starter bot issues, that way everyone watching that will recieve it
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2011-03-29T20:33:31  <McLeopold> amstan: you there?
2011-03-29T20:33:41  <amstan> McLeopold: pong
2011-03-29T20:33:56  <McLeopold> so, I was looking at the common lisp starter and it is very complicated
2011-03-29T20:34:13  <McLeopold> some of the stuff in there is more tools related than bot related
2011-03-29T20:34:45  <McLeopold> meaning, it is more than we would want uploaded to the server if someone just used the starter with no modifications
2011-03-29T20:34:55  <amstan> McLeopold: aerique made that, we need to talk to him
2011-03-29T20:35:20  <McLeopold> okay, but, in general, is it okay to say don't include tools?
2011-03-29T20:35:37  <McLeopold> and then are we willing to post multiple tool packages?
2011-03-29T20:36:31  <McLeopold> amstan: focus
2011-03-29T20:36:38  <amstan> McLeopold: i'm not sure
2011-03-29T20:36:45  <McLeopold> good answer :?
2011-03-29T20:37:27  <McLeopold> I'm thinking multiple tool packages that can be tailored to a language then.
2011-03-29T20:37:33  <McLeopold> again, a volunteer thing
2011-03-29T20:37:51  <McLeopold> but we should at least trim down the starters to bare bones code
2011-03-29T20:39:04  <namina> Little problem with the java visualizer, I've got it built but can't run it...
2011-03-29T20:39:16  <namina> window comes up blank and following error in terminal: http://pastebin.com/LxEvBBnH
2011-03-29T20:39:21  <namina> anyone have any ideas?
2011-03-29T20:40:38  <McLeopold> namina: I haven't pulled lately, but can't you just avoid IE for now?
2011-03-29T20:41:04  <namina> ie?
2011-03-29T20:41:05  <McLeopold> or are you debugging the code?
2011-03-29T20:41:28  <McLeopold> Internet Explorer < 8, the only reason we need the java visualizer
2011-03-29T20:41:35  <McLeopold> <= 8
2011-03-29T20:41:43  <namina> seems like latest ver doesn't have an javascript visualizer html file so I was trying the java
2011-03-29T20:41:55  <McLeopold> is offline.html still there?
2011-03-29T20:41:58  <namina> nope
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2011-03-29T20:42:27  <namina> and i get scared by git reverts...
2011-03-29T20:44:32  <McLeopold> Frontier: can you bring back the offline.html?
2011-03-29T20:44:58  <McLeopold> Frontier: and, just a nitpick, but the java package should probably be com.ai-contest.ants.visualizer
2011-03-29T20:50:11  <jbroman> McLeopold: Hyphens are not valid in Java package names.
2011-03-29T20:50:20  <jbroman> (the official recommendation is to replace it with an underscore)
2011-03-29T20:50:45  <jbroman> The reason, of course, is that it could be confused for the subtraction operator (or the unary negation operator).
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2011-03-29T20:53:31  <namina> think the main nitpick is the lack of ants though
2011-03-29T20:54:35  <CIA-90> aichallenge: McLeopold epsilon * ra49dbf5 / ants/mapgen/McMaps.py : Added cell maze generation method (in progress) - http://bit.ly/gPIymd
2011-03-29T20:54:55  <McLeopold> jbroman: good point, I was more interested in making sure "ants" was in there
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2011-03-29T21:03:42  <namina> anyone know an easy way to revert only one folder to a previous commit in git?
2011-03-29T21:04:03  <namina> actually don't worry
2011-03-29T21:05:01  <sigh> namina: use git checkout
2011-03-29T21:05:52  <sigh> revert definitely not what you should be using :P
2011-03-29T21:08:31  <namina> ah yeah, that does make a little more sense
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2011-03-29T21:35:35  <namina> sigh: so i've got a path for each ant, stored as a list of coords.
2011-03-29T21:35:52  <sigh> ok?
2011-03-29T21:35:56  <namina> whats the best way to store them between turns for each ant
2011-03-29T21:37:04  <sigh> that depends on how your code is structured o_O
2011-03-29T21:37:10  <namina> :p
2011-03-29T21:38:00  <sigh> if it is like the python starter pack, then just store it in an instance variable?
2011-03-29T21:38:17  <sigh> like self.ant_path[ant] = path
2011-03-29T21:39:41  <namina> yeah, ok. So how should I differentiate between ants, by their location?
2011-03-29T21:40:17  <namina> sorry phrasing this badly...
2011-03-29T21:40:30  <namina> is there a identifier for ants other than locations?
2011-03-29T21:41:06  <sigh> in the starter pack, no...
2011-03-29T21:42:00  <namina> right, ok. Thanks
2011-03-29T21:42:23  <sigh> take that up with McLeopold for making it hard to identify ants :P
2011-03-29T21:42:49  <namina> will do :D
2011-03-29T21:44:07  <sigh> namina: the engine gets around this issue by creating an Ant class which contains all the data about an ant
2011-03-29T21:44:35  <sigh> in this case you can add ants to dictionary and compare them and all that and it works like you would expect
2011-03-29T21:44:55  <namina> yea, will give it a go
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2011-03-29T22:42:21  <Frontier> The ant build script almost works on Windows, too. There is just a spot where I did not account for \r\n in a regular expression. If they made the use of conditions more straight forward it would a really awesome cross-platform build tool.
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2011-03-29T23:50:45  <nesquik> I have a question: I'd like to do this in (MIT-) Scheme ... I've been kind of writing something to parse everything but I was wondering if anyone had attempted this as well so that I could compare mine?
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2011-03-29T23:57:00  <mcsmash> is there another challenge scheduled for this term?
2011-03-29T23:59:35  <amstan> nesquik: yes
2011-03-29T23:59:43  <amstan> mcsmash: yes, soon, lol
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