2011-04-09T00:22:25 *** Chris_0076 has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T00:42:05 *** everbird has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.) 2011-04-09T00:54:45 *** Keth_ has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2011-04-09T00:54:51 *** Keth has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T01:00:15 *** me0w has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T01:01:37 *** me00w has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T01:05:08 *** me0w has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2011-04-09T01:18:11 @later tell McLeopold where did Timer come from in sandbox.py? the sandbox under the planetwars tag uses an infinite loop in a threading.Thread() to do the same thing, which one was used in planetewars? should I use the Thread() method for ants? 2011-04-09T01:18:11 sigh: Aye, aye, sir 2011-04-09T01:19:47 sigh: the current sandbox was a complete rewrite from planetwars 2011-04-09T01:19:58 also the Timer just delays the start of a thread 2011-04-09T01:20:13 I don't have any idea why it is being used though 2011-04-09T01:20:24 ah, i see.. yeah... I got a it confused 2011-04-09T01:21:16 it's certainly weird but it shouldn't cause any actual problem so long as the startup time for bots is kept longer than 1 second 2011-04-09T01:27:14 hmmm here's an idea 2011-04-09T01:27:52 we could make players starting positions "home bases" where an ant spawns every x turns, then you can also spawn using food as normal, so really every player is a part of the game until the game "has played long enough" 2011-04-09T01:28:00 then the winner is just based off the current scoring 2011-04-09T01:28:50 too complicated, but would be neat 2011-04-09T01:30:54 I'd rather "overwhelming victories" end quickly 2011-04-09T01:31:37 *** me00w has quit IRC (Quit: leaving) 2011-04-09T01:33:38 i'm not sure how quick games will be in this 2011-04-09T01:34:06 even with a top bot against a half decent one it will take them a little while to whither them down to nothing 2011-04-09T01:38:08 yes, certainly much longer than the same scenario in planetwars 2011-04-09T01:39:05 there were games with less than 10 moves in that 2011-04-09T01:39:14 i don't think tron even managed that without crashes? 2011-04-09T01:39:22 I do still expect we'll need a good size gap between that scenario's length and the max turn limit so we have good ordering for close games 2011-04-09T01:39:46 i think we need to start the turn limit at 1000+ 2011-04-09T01:40:10 yeah, a half decent bot could keep a tron game going for a while as well 2011-04-09T01:40:32 i wish we'd used larger maps for that 2011-04-09T01:40:40 :) 2011-04-09T01:47:43 *** amstan has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2011-04-09T01:47:53 *** amstan_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T01:47:53 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o amstan_ 2011-04-09T01:49:57 *** Stocha has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T01:56:08 so far the games i've seen between my reference bot and another average bot was lighting fast. 2011-04-09T01:56:18 less than 300 moves in most cases i think 2011-04-09T01:56:47 same goes for my bot vs himself in assymetrical settings 2011-04-09T01:57:10 that may be an argument for assymetrical :p But it may be the same on assymetric 2011-04-09T01:57:56 anyway some bots will be willing to take their time. And thoses were 1vs1 2011-04-09T01:58:18 @seen phire 2011-04-09T01:58:18 Stocha: phire was last seen in #aichallenge 3 days, 14 hours, 36 minutes, and 4 seconds ago: I'm seeing some large delays 2011-04-09T01:59:00 *** Stocha has quit IRC (Quit: Page closed) 2011-04-09T01:59:30 Stocha: I am much more interested in 1v1v1v1 games 2011-04-09T01:59:37 and have you got a copy of the engine with the food bonus implemented? 2011-04-09T01:59:42 ahh he's gone :P 2011-04-09T02:11:00 @later tell McLeopold never mind about Timer, janzert explained it to me... it should be fine as it is I guess? 2011-04-09T02:11:00 sigh: As you wish. 2011-04-09T02:41:45 *** antimatroid has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-04-09T02:58:25 *** antimatroid has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T03:00:14 *** amstan_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2011-04-09T03:05:53 *** chris__0076 has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T03:08:21 *** Chris_0076 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-04-09T03:17:45 *** Cyndre_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-04-09T03:17:51 *** Accoun has quit IRC () 2011-04-09T03:18:05 *** Cyndre has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2011-04-09T03:21:56 *** chris__0076 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2011-04-09T03:26:37 *** delt0r___ has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T03:27:53 *** delt0r_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2011-04-09T03:34:59 *** Chris_0076 has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T03:40:36 *** _flag <_flag!~flag@69-165-173-172.dsl.teksavvy.com> has quit IRC (Quit: Lost terminal) 2011-04-09T05:31:29 *** Stocha has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T05:32:54 antimatroid: keth was doing the testing. And yes the food bonus was in. His bot is winning all game, until last ant dies. then he loose some 2011-04-09T05:33:45 *** Stocha has quit IRC (Client Quit) 2011-04-09T05:42:27 *** Stocha has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T05:42:31 hi there 2011-04-09T05:42:41 how long will people have when the challenge go live ? 2011-04-09T05:42:51 to finalize their bots ? 2011-04-09T05:43:11 Antimatroid posted on github that 3 month felt long to him. 2011-04-09T05:43:19 when i though you would have like 6 month 2011-04-09T05:54:08 *** Stocha has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2011-04-09T06:12:22 *** mceier has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T06:14:30 *** Keth has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-04-09T06:15:05 *** chris__0076 has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T06:17:18 *** Chris_0076 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2011-04-09T06:21:05 *** mceier has quit IRC (Quit: leaving) 2011-04-09T06:31:01 *** Accoun has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T06:39:43 *** chris__0076 has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) 2011-04-09T06:40:07 *** Chris_0076 has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T06:54:48 *** FireFly has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) 2011-04-09T08:03:46 *** Accoun has quit IRC () 2011-04-09T08:11:10 *** Accoun has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T08:21:18 *** jbroman has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-04-09T08:21:27 *** jbroman has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T08:31:19 *** dlila has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T08:34:29 *** Eruonen has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T08:35:58 *** Frontier has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T08:43:48 *** needsch has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T08:51:27 *** FireFly has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T09:06:28 *** chris__0076 has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T09:08:08 *** Chris_0076 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2011-04-09T09:10:10 last number I heard was 2 months 2011-04-09T09:13:04 2 months has always been at my suggestion i think 2011-04-09T09:13:09 i am oepn to that being different 2011-04-09T09:13:15 now the last number I've heard is also 2 months 2011-04-09T09:13:17 i got that using goldy locks 2011-04-09T09:13:59 although it's a funny number, it looks almost like a duration 2011-04-09T09:14:40 duration? 2011-04-09T09:14:54 i got that from tron being one month and too short, planet wars being 3 months and long 2011-04-09T09:15:01 "2 months" is not a number :P 2011-04-09T09:15:15 it's a length :P 2011-04-09T09:15:58 * antimatroid is pretty sure time would work as a norm 2011-04-09T09:16:11 hmmm? 2011-04-09T09:16:33 norms give you distance 2011-04-09T09:16:44 no length 2011-04-09T09:16:48 distance is metric ergh 2011-04-09T09:17:46 in relativity time is almost equivalent to a distance, except it has a negative sign 2011-04-09T09:18:05 ds^2 = dx^2 + dy^2 + dz^2 - dt^2 2011-04-09T09:18:14 special relativity that is 2011-04-09T09:18:27 hmm okay, i know almost nothing about physics 2011-04-09T09:19:16 the point is that different observers in different frames of reference will disagree on dt, dx, dy, dz but will always agree on ds 2011-04-09T09:20:41 i once had people arguing with me that there simply does not exists any notion of absolute reference inside the universe 2011-04-09T09:21:15 i still think that's bullshit, even if what's in the universe is constantly expanding/moving, there would still be at some level, a notion of location inside that big black open space we call the universe 2011-04-09T09:22:24 *** Stocha has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T09:23:31 well depends on what you mean by absolute reference, I guess 2011-04-09T09:24:09 things like locations can't be absolute because different observers can't even agree on the spatial distance between things 2011-04-09T09:24:29 just because two entities inside the system can't focalise on it, does it mean it doesn't exist? 2011-04-09T09:24:41 so it will be relative 2 month then ? 2011-04-09T09:24:49 Stocha: i imagine so 2011-04-09T09:25:07 everyone was getting pretty tired of planet wars at the end i'm pretty sure 2011-04-09T09:25:26 how long have you ben anting yourself ? 2011-04-09T09:25:43 i started an actual bot like yesterday/ day before 2011-04-09T09:25:52 the point is there is no privileged frame of reference... I mean you can claim that your own frame of reference is absolute and work from there, but that is hardly universal 2011-04-09T09:26:01 no i mean working on the ant framework / rules 2011-04-09T09:26:27 not sure exactly, a few months 2011-04-09T09:26:45 one you can work on it only 3 hours / week, 2 month is pretty short :p 2011-04-09T09:27:12 so time management will be critical 2011-04-09T09:27:25 sigh: i don't mind that, i still think when it comes down to it, there would be a 3d absolute frame of reference for the universe, i don't see how that can not be the case 2011-04-09T09:27:57 Stocha: different people are going to have different time availability, different abilities etc. 2011-04-09T09:28:08 some people aren't even born yet! what about them? :P 2011-04-09T09:28:51 i think there are absolute reference when you look at it fro the perspective of mecanum quantics. no ? 2011-04-09T09:29:12 I know no physics 2011-04-09T09:29:37 nor i 2011-04-09T09:29:44 my opinion on what should be the case with physics is usually based off what i know from maths and how that works 2011-04-09T09:29:52 antimatroid: all inertial frames of reference are equivalent... there is no way to distinguish between them 2011-04-09T09:30:10 that makes it kind of hard to come up with some absolute frame of reference 2011-04-09T09:30:29 is there a finite set of inertial frames of reference ? 2011-04-09T09:30:38 infinite set 2011-04-09T09:30:43 how can you be sure ? 2011-04-09T09:30:55 can't be sure 2011-04-09T09:30:59 ah okay then :) 2011-04-09T09:31:05 sigh: i'm not saying we actually have to be able to say what it is and use it, hell there's an optimal solution to chess, I don't know it, but there is one 2011-04-09T09:31:37 chess is very restrictive compared to go :p 2011-04-09T09:31:54 go has an optimal strategy too 2011-04-09T09:32:14 go depends on the komi you chose. 2011-04-09T09:32:24 there is no komi when you play chess. 2011-04-09T09:32:43 meh, you know what i mean, each 2 player (zero sum?) game like that has an optimal solution 2011-04-09T09:33:00 it's a bit tricker with more complicated games, but each one has at least one mixed strategy nash equilibrium at least 2011-04-09T09:33:13 yeah there is way of following the maximum score theoricall strategy for both player 2011-04-09T09:33:27 however depending on komi that might not be "perfect" play 2011-04-09T09:33:56 go is perfect information game. 2011-04-09T09:34:03 no mixed strategy in there. 2011-04-09T09:34:05 antimatroid: well I'm finding it hard to figure out how you assign significance to a frame of reference if it can't be distinguished from others 2011-04-09T09:34:06 in theory 2011-04-09T09:34:29 Stocha: you use a mixed strategy to pick a pure strategy, you can still use it for a single instance of a game 2011-04-09T09:34:32 Stocha: komi is a given for a game 2011-04-09T09:34:44 I'm not sure what your point is for that 2011-04-09T09:35:13 the point is, let's suppose the komi make it so that there is no sure winning strategy for black 2011-04-09T09:35:19 then what is "perfect" play ? 2011-04-09T09:35:40 my point is that really there would be an absolute reference, that our galaxy etc. might have an orbit like our planet does etc. etc. 2011-04-09T09:35:41 sure, then black has no winning strategy 2011-04-09T09:35:48 that's the same problem for chess 2011-04-09T09:36:01 but really, there would be a way to describe all of that if we weren't tiny specs on one of those lumps trying to work stuff out 2011-04-09T09:36:06 yeah. the difference with go, is that for a given value of komi, you just don't know :) 2011-04-09T09:36:27 god may know. But for the time being no human can be sure. 2011-04-09T09:36:38 an optimal strategy doesn't necessarily mean you win 2011-04-09T09:36:52 hell, if player 2 can force a win, your optimal strategy as player 1 may involve losing 2011-04-09T09:36:57 komi just adds another "rule" to the game, it doesn't make it fundamentally different from chess 2011-04-09T09:37:18 Well, from i what i have seen it does. 2011-04-09T09:37:32 in what way? 2011-04-09T09:37:38 the fact that the go game is "point based" rather than suddent death based. 2011-04-09T09:38:04 sure... but we are talking from the point of view of perfect play 2011-04-09T09:38:17 go has different strategy and objectives to chess, sure 2011-04-09T09:38:23 Well, there are things between go and chess that are alike. Like each player play once every turn :p 2011-04-09T09:38:55 Depending on komi, go might be with or without draws also. 2011-04-09T09:39:01 yes, and they both have perfect information, so they can both (theoretically) be solved by the same algorithm 2011-04-09T09:39:06 chess can have draws too 2011-04-09T09:39:36 One thing that has become evident with modern go bots, is that "perfect" play is not always the best strategy 2011-04-09T09:39:55 pro go payers have known that since long. 2011-04-09T09:40:00 forget go bots, even humans are no where near perfect play 2011-04-09T09:40:03 perfect play the way i describe it assumes rational opponents 2011-04-09T09:40:16 and like sigh said, you aren't going to get perfect play with go 2011-04-09T09:40:20 no it assumes godly opponent antimatroid 2011-04-09T09:40:20 so it's complicated 2011-04-09T09:40:31 which is opposed to devil opponent :p 2011-04-09T09:40:34 rational opponents are able to play perfectly 2011-04-09T09:41:19 although if you do a 2 player zero sum game, you can do no worse than what your "optimal strategy" picks out as the outcome of the game 2011-04-09T09:41:45 with normal games that's not the case, which is why i'm saying people will have more room for playing around with game trees 2011-04-09T09:41:59 and actually poses some cool situations for cooperating based on their past play etc. 2011-04-09T09:43:15 and obviously if you are losing you can take risks that knowingly deviate from "optimal" strategy but which has a greater chace at winning through sub-optimal play of the opponent 2011-04-09T09:43:36 Stocha: do you play go much? 2011-04-09T09:43:38 sigh: harder to "calculate" but sure 2011-04-09T09:43:45 * antimatroid has never played go 2011-04-09T09:43:48 *** mceier has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T09:44:33 i'm an average go player. 2011-04-09T09:44:44 and weak go bot maker :p 2011-04-09T09:45:03 that's a very vague statement :) 2011-04-09T09:45:08 yeah sure. 2011-04-09T09:45:19 what do you want to know exactly then ? 2011-04-09T09:45:41 oh I don't mind if you don't want to say 2011-04-09T09:45:47 let's player 1000 games against a variety of opponent with exact same setting, and i'll answer. 2011-04-09T09:46:11 just I've heard people from double digit kyu all the way up to 9d saying they are average players 2011-04-09T09:46:25 :) 2011-04-09T09:46:33 i've beaten guyes that said they where 1d strength. And i have lost against game that said they where 8 kyu strength. 2011-04-09T09:46:37 that's about it :p 2011-04-09T09:47:08 that's fair... average on most go servers work out to about 5k or so 2011-04-09T09:47:10 I have played against my iphone also. 2011-04-09T09:47:14 igo from iphone. 2011-04-09T09:47:21 :) 2011-04-09T09:47:25 it says i'm 1 kyu. And sometime it says i'm 4d 2011-04-09T09:47:28 it depends 2011-04-09T09:47:38 probably more reliable i guess. 2011-04-09T09:47:51 ah, I don't trust what go apps say 2011-04-09T09:47:57 Although it's hard to translate to 19x19 2011-04-09T09:48:08 well, at least there are some regularity in the setting of the games. 2011-04-09T09:48:13 they are 9x9 games. 2011-04-09T09:48:18 what about you ? 2011-04-09T09:48:27 haven't played in a while 2011-04-09T09:48:33 yeah 2011-04-09T09:48:34 was low-mid dan 2011-04-09T09:48:36 so ? 2011-04-09T09:48:42 what's that ? 2011-04-09T09:48:46 what country also ? 2011-04-09T09:48:57 dans have been know to largely depends on where they are from :p 2011-04-09T09:49:01 australia, but also on KGS 2011-04-09T09:49:20 low dan would be like 1d kgs from 100 games ? 2011-04-09T09:49:33 100 games? 2011-04-09T09:49:52 yeah. you can play 10 games, and say you are 8 dan. i have seen that. The guy was 8kyu. 2011-04-09T09:49:59 or maybe 4 kyu but well. 2011-04-09T09:50:04 :) 2011-04-09T09:50:24 so i say that 100 games is more smooth for rating. 2011-04-09T09:50:33 but there are big differences in settings 2011-04-09T09:50:46 I should still be able to confidently beat a KGS 1d 2011-04-09T09:50:47 ultra blitz might show that you have a good speed adsl for example :p 2011-04-09T09:50:57 haha 2011-04-09T09:51:02 I used to play blitz on dialup 2011-04-09T09:51:09 so let's say you are kgs 4 dans then ? 2011-04-09T09:51:36 if you tell me you can confidently win against kgs 4 dans, then somehting is wrong :p 2011-04-09T09:51:44 because i have seen very strong kgs 4 dans :p 2011-04-09T09:51:59 4d on KGS gets wierd 2011-04-09T09:52:01 I know one that has beaten i pro with two stones. 2011-04-09T09:52:13 I could easiy hold a 3d rank when I was in practice though 2011-04-09T09:52:47 i think i would be able to easilly hold 4k + 2011-04-09T09:53:32 fair enough 2011-04-09T09:53:49 now I feel like playing again 2011-04-09T09:53:56 and i certainly would have difficulty holding 2d :p 2011-04-09T09:54:02 :) 2011-04-09T09:54:04 bah go is too long. 2011-04-09T09:54:12 ant is better. at least it's new. 2011-04-09T09:54:20 I play fast... even with long time limits 2011-04-09T09:54:27 *** chris___0076 has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T09:54:35 i play slow. Even with blitz time limit. 2011-04-09T09:54:40 :) 2011-04-09T09:55:11 I've been in tournaments with 1h15m per side, and I've used 10-15 minutes total :P 2011-04-09T09:55:16 *** Accoun has quit IRC () 2011-04-09T09:55:39 I suppose it's a bad habit :P 2011-04-09T09:55:57 dans player tend to used up all there time here in france. 2011-04-09T09:56:33 *** needsch has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.) 2011-04-09T09:56:43 they tend to do that everywhere 2011-04-09T09:56:46 when playing official games 2011-04-09T09:57:08 *** chris__0076 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2011-04-09T09:57:14 It's a bad habit I guess, and I don't take the games that seriously :P 2011-04-09T09:57:18 i played against one young player in a club, and he put his stone before i put mine :p 2011-04-09T09:57:26 :) 2011-04-09T09:57:31 but still he used up all it's time in the official games. 2011-04-09T09:57:40 he is pretty strong now 2011-04-09T09:58:30 go is easier when you know what your opponent thinks is his best response to your best move :p 2011-04-09T09:58:57 replace go with game and yeah :P 2011-04-09T09:59:06 yeah, I take longer against stronger players 2011-04-09T09:59:29 oh i saw him do that against a french 4 dan too 2011-04-09T09:59:30 it must be time to cook dinner soon 2011-04-09T09:59:35 in unofficial games. 2011-04-09T09:59:41 sigh: :P 2011-04-09T09:59:49 it's only 4pm antimatroid :p 2011-04-09T09:59:57 i fell asleep earlier, there goes my semi normal sleep pattern 2011-04-09T10:00:00 :) 2011-04-09T10:00:03 Stocha: it's midnight in australia 2011-04-09T10:00:18 who lives in australia these days. 2011-04-09T10:00:24 it's radioactive isn't it ? 2011-04-09T10:00:28 o_O 2011-04-09T10:00:33 australia is awesome excepting the political climate 2011-04-09T10:00:47 It's close to japan. 2011-04-09T10:00:47 Where is there a good political climate? 2011-04-09T10:00:49 and the racists 2011-04-09T10:00:51 they can go too 2011-04-09T10:01:00 *** needsch has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T10:01:14 jbroman: good point, i'm sick of politics being filled with incompetent twats 2011-04-09T10:01:30 okay i might be overstretching it a bit. 2011-04-09T10:01:50 problem with politics, is in the motivation you have to be involved in it. 2011-04-09T10:01:57 our last prime minister had a law degree ffs, we wouldn't let someone become a doctor of a lawyer with a chinese degree, no matter how pure their intentions were, yet you think you can run the country, sure go for it 2011-04-09T10:02:09 chinese** not law 2011-04-09T10:02:11 current has law 2011-04-09T10:03:03 oh you need a position don't you, we'll make you education/foreign/environment minister, you have no idea about it, but you need a position as you're on our party (RAGE!!!!) 2011-04-09T10:03:58 i think it's the same in just every area. 2011-04-09T10:04:15 yes, and i hate it :P 2011-04-09T10:04:35 what would they do, if only those who fit a task are allowed to do it ? 2011-04-09T10:04:47 it's a ridiculous popularity contest rather than an informed choice by the populace 2011-04-09T10:04:49 99% of humanity would have nothing to do. 2011-04-09T10:05:17 maybe i wouldn't be trying to play ant :p 2011-04-09T10:05:27 antimatroid: Yup. Because even the people who DO vote don't care enough to educate themselves. 2011-04-09T10:05:27 at least i don't do that for money. 2011-04-09T10:05:37 i would like to see people choosing among the most qualified people to fill positions, that's not clear i know, but that'd have to work better 2011-04-09T10:05:58 yeah. not clear indeed. 2011-04-09T10:06:09 how do they choose at the moment ? By emotions. 2011-04-09T10:06:23 antimatroid: Meritocracy. Has as many problems as democracy, sadly. 2011-04-09T10:06:25 it' hard to disproof that it is optimal 2011-04-09T10:06:46 Most really efficient team or bound by strong emotions. 2011-04-09T10:07:04 although they might not be the best individual players. 2011-04-09T10:07:10 And what emotion do politicians love to appeal to? Fear. 2011-04-09T10:07:12 the ideal solution would be educating people enough that they can make an informed choice, but that isn't realistic either 2011-04-09T10:07:39 antimatroid: Nah, we're much too busy learning about what Kate Middleton thinks about Justin Bieber. 2011-04-09T10:07:42 i don't think that you can educate people 2011-04-09T10:07:58 you can merely encourage them strongly to educate themselves. a bit. 2011-04-09T10:08:18 Cheating others emotions is bad. 2011-04-09T10:08:28 thoses who do that should go to jail. 2011-04-09T10:08:42 i guess that would be 100% of the earth population :p 2011-04-09T10:09:09 i also think the world would be a much nicer place if everyone would adopt the philosophy "you are free to do what you want provided you don't impede on someone elses right to do what they want without sufficient compensation that the person being impeded on doesn't actually feel like they're being impeded on" 2011-04-09T10:09:12 if we are sufficiently numerous or there is sufficient radioactives leaks, that dream may come true. 2011-04-09T10:09:39 what's compensation in this case ? 2011-04-09T10:09:47 could be anything 2011-04-09T10:09:50 it's a very general notion 2011-04-09T10:09:58 there should be no compensation 2011-04-09T10:10:11 it's like saying : you can polute all you want. But you'll give compensation. 2011-04-09T10:10:24 the only compensation is not polluting in the first place. 2011-04-09T10:10:38 the idea is say you are impeding on a neighbour with noise, you are expected to provide something to the neighbour that the neighbour values at least as high as dealing with the noise 2011-04-09T10:11:05 you can build all the atomic stuff you want, and let them explode. But you have to give compensation once they do. 2011-04-09T10:11:07 but the catch is it's not what you think will compensate them, the actual person being impeded on has to say they aren't affected netly 2011-04-09T10:11:25 that gets very messy, but i'm more referring to different religions fighting over what different people believe 2011-04-09T10:11:29 *** Accoun has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T10:11:31 Stocha: There are few things I would accept as compensation for being nuked. 2011-04-09T10:11:44 or trying to limit other peoples actions based on their own beliefs like for transgenders, gay marriage etc. 2011-04-09T10:12:11 jbroman : that's now. But once you are, you 'll be happy to be compensated for that. 2011-04-09T10:12:42 if everyone would chill out and live their live by their beliefs (you can't hold the belief that killing is good) and let others hold their own beliefs, we'd all be better off 2011-04-09T10:13:00 Stocha: the party has to agree that the trade was worthwhile 2011-04-09T10:13:07 i though ant was an hard game. But it's simpler than reality. Reality is defficient. 2011-04-09T10:13:12 antimatroid: we would be in the stoneage then -.- 2011-04-09T10:13:24 the earth is a disk and so on 2011-04-09T10:13:34 Frontier: what do you mean? 2011-04-09T10:13:51 some cultures have been known for valorizing death. 2011-04-09T10:13:58 Japan has done that. 2011-04-09T10:14:04 There are some false beliefs I can remember that were good to overcome. 2011-04-09T10:14:08 where killing could become good. 2011-04-09T10:14:15 i really like japans at least stereotyped culture 2011-04-09T10:14:24 well any system that allow to kill criminal also. 2011-04-09T10:14:47 most countries allow killing 2011-04-09T10:14:55 maybe not of their own people 2011-04-09T10:14:57 but they do 2011-04-09T10:15:19 so why do you put that killing should be forbiden ? 2011-04-09T10:15:44 There is no real free market if you are forbiden to kill your competitors :p 2011-04-09T10:15:49 it depends on the circumstances, i was referring to an individual living in a country 2011-04-09T10:16:01 it's not going to work to have people going around killing based of their judgements 2011-04-09T10:16:09 i don't hold the opinion that no one deserves to be killed 2011-04-09T10:16:19 The only good system, is the system where there is no external rules. 2011-04-09T10:16:30 well that's the system humanity use i guess :p 2011-04-09T10:16:53 what counts as an external rule? 2011-04-09T10:17:05 is the game ending conditions to go an external rule to being an elephant? 2011-04-09T10:17:09 well, you get the idea :p 2011-04-09T10:17:53 2 month is short. I should be coding. Although i' have no idea what i'm doing :p 2011-04-09T10:18:05 i have been thinking about food collection 2011-04-09T10:18:07 it's a tricky beast 2011-04-09T10:18:20 i can only really think of a good way to do it with a game tree, but i want that for battles 2011-04-09T10:18:30 did the contest start already? 2011-04-09T10:18:31 i may need to trigger one or the other based on how many ants are near enemies 2011-04-09T10:18:35 Frontier: no 2011-04-09T10:19:57 i have a notion of using an ant to collect more than one food item, but do you send an ant to the closest food square first, or the closest ant to the food square you can reach first and is closest to an enemy or any variation etc. 2011-04-09T10:20:20 it's never too soo to start understanding what the ant game is about 2011-04-09T10:20:38 even if you don't know the fighting rule, and the scoring rule. And the ant generation rule. And the food generation rule. 2011-04-09T10:21:06 fighting is the only thing of real importance not decided 2011-04-09T10:21:19 and i am waiting on jeff to come in so i can talk to him and get him to make a decision there 2011-04-09T10:21:26 Then there is nothing of real importance not decide. 2011-04-09T10:21:40 you can make people make bots. 2011-04-09T10:21:54 and they 'll discover the rules, when they see their official rankings games. 2011-04-09T10:23:15 i'm still wondering if uknown map at start is a good or a bad thing 2011-04-09T10:23:23 it make the game rule dependent 2011-04-09T10:23:33 for example, you then depend on the rule for generation the map 2011-04-09T10:23:47 you depend on it as much, if the map is known from start 2011-04-09T10:23:56 anyone want to chime in on current strategy preferences? 2011-04-09T10:24:03 (although there still is a depency obviously) 2011-04-09T10:24:20 i want to get damage, but otherwise what's the best simple rule? I think the support method with the battle radius reduced to sqrt(4 ) 2011-04-09T10:24:27 what's current strategy preference ? 2011-04-09T10:24:58 I would go for either damage, or for radius 0/1 2011-04-09T10:25:29 it seems that people dislike the idea of ant swaping places withoug fighting O_o 2011-04-09T10:25:39 problem with radius 0/1 is battle is essentially removed as a strategic component to the game 2011-04-09T10:25:54 i don't know that for sure. 2011-04-09T10:26:06 the micro side of battling is 2011-04-09T10:26:09 but i agree that damage will give some fun things to try. 2011-04-09T10:26:12 you just have to not get two ants in one fight 2011-04-09T10:26:31 with radius 0, you have the choice 2011-04-09T10:26:41 you can put one ant at a time, or several 2011-04-09T10:26:42 the power method with radius 1 2011-04-09T10:26:49 is that still too hard for people to understand? 2011-04-09T10:27:06 the jeff criterion seems very drastic 2011-04-09T10:27:16 to the point i'm not sure that "ant die on same squares" fits in :p 2011-04-09T10:27:47 *** berak_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-04-09T10:27:48 because of the swaping property 2011-04-09T10:28:10 still i can't think of anything simpler than that. Both for implementation and explanation 2011-04-09T10:28:26 it's boring micro battle wise 2011-04-09T10:28:37 So let's say i support damage , and then ant die on same square. 2011-04-09T10:28:39 *** chris___0076 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2011-04-09T10:28:47 they game will still be hard anyway 2011-04-09T10:28:48 my favourite part about this game is having interesting micro battle strategies to play around with 2011-04-09T10:28:59 but you'll have to focus on more technical things 2011-04-09T10:29:09 and i'm not sure it'll make it fun 2011-04-09T10:29:17 yes, that's fun to me 2011-04-09T10:29:28