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2011-04-16T00:31:48  <bhasker> k thanks
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2011-04-16T00:58:11  <bhasker> amtsan done sent the pull request
2011-04-16T00:58:43  <bhasker> feel free to reject it if you feel something isnt right , its just a basic bot that i hacked up using my old code from the last challenge for logging etc
2011-04-16T00:58:57  <bhasker> i think its a little better than the hunterbot
2011-04-16T01:19:21  <bhasker> Ants can see, battle and spawn over water. If a bot issues a move for an ant onto water, it is considered an invalid move and therefore ignored.
2011-04-16T01:19:25  <bhasker> i am guessing this is wrong
2011-04-16T01:19:40  <bhasker> in the Water Blocking section  of Ants-Game-Specification
2011-04-16T01:19:45  <bhasker> the first part of that line i.e
2011-04-16T01:21:39  <janzert> what part do you think is wrong? pretty sure that is indeed the way it works
2011-04-16T01:22:53  <bhasker> battle and spawn over water
2011-04-16T01:23:00  <bhasker> i thought ants can't spawn over water?
2011-04-16T01:23:07  <bhasker> or does that mean they can spawn across from water?
2011-04-16T01:23:20  <janzert> over as in across, yes
2011-04-16T01:23:29  <bhasker> ah maybe rephrasing that would be better
2011-04-16T01:23:55  <janzert> there won't ever be food on top of water so an ant won't spawn in water no
2011-04-16T01:24:18  <bhasker> i guess so but it was still confusing when i read it the first time
2011-04-16T01:24:31  <janzert> hit antimatroid up with it if you want he's doing the spec writing :)
2011-04-16T01:24:50  <bhasker> will do time to go think about how i want to structure my bot for the contest
2011-04-16T01:24:57  <bhasker> this one should be interesting
2011-04-16T01:25:12  <antimatroid> noted
2011-04-16T01:25:16  <janzert> btw, the spec should be taken as a descriptive spec and in general the engine as authoritative
2011-04-16T01:25:39  <janzert> at least barring bugs in the engine ;)
2011-04-16T01:25:47  <antimatroid> :P
2011-04-16T01:25:48  <bhasker> :)
2011-04-16T01:25:50  <antimatroid> i was about to say
2011-04-16T01:25:54  <bhasker> antimatroid check out my basic bot that i added
2011-04-16T01:25:59  <bhasker> seems to be beat hunterbot
2011-04-16T01:26:00  <bhasker> for now
2011-04-16T01:26:03  <antimatroid> bhasker: I will a bit later
2011-04-16T01:26:26  <bhasker> btw who is writing the engine?
2011-04-16T01:26:41  <antimatroid> mcleopold (and sigh)
2011-04-16T01:26:50  <janzert> sigh is basically taking care of it at this point
2011-04-16T01:27:05  <antimatroid> except he is moving state today
2011-04-16T01:27:10  <bhasker> ah k
2011-04-16T01:27:13  <antimatroid> so i suspect from here it'll be whoever fixes anything
2011-04-16T01:27:30  <bhasker> i opened a bug ,basically the engine doesn't seem to read the bot's stderr
2011-04-16T01:27:34  <bhasker> so if the bot logs anything ever
2011-04-16T01:27:37  <bhasker> to stderr
2011-04-16T01:27:40  <bhasker> eventually it blocks
2011-04-16T01:27:42  <bhasker> and timesout
2011-04-16T01:27:57  <antimatroid> ah yeah okay
2011-04-16T01:27:58  <janzert> the engine in past contests never read stderr either
2011-04-16T01:28:03  <bhasker> it did
2011-04-16T01:28:13  <bhasker> well at least the local player did
2011-04-16T01:28:16  <antimatroid> i used cerr for output in tron?
2011-04-16T01:28:20  <bhasker> not the server one
2011-04-16T01:28:25  <bhasker> maybe
2011-04-16T01:28:26  <antimatroid> but it didn't work for pw so i started writing to files, which i prefer anyway
2011-04-16T01:28:33  <janzert> yeah, server one didn't handle it at all
2011-04-16T01:28:40  <janzert> we should really just redirect to /dev/null
2011-04-16T01:28:54  <janzert> the sandbox could probably handle it actually
2011-04-16T01:28:56  <bhasker> k i guess i will just change my logging to write to a file
2011-04-16T01:29:42  <bhasker> so 16 days to beta , and how long is the beta going to be?
2011-04-16T01:30:37  <janzert> I would guess around 2 weeks but no real plan yet
2011-04-16T01:31:07  <bhasker> k
2011-04-16T01:31:09  <janzert> also beta really starts as soon as all the parts fit together whenever that may end up being :)
2011-04-16T01:31:34  <bhasker> is any one running a basic tcp server ?
2011-04-16T01:32:08  <janzert> I don't think anyone has written one yet
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2011-04-16T01:32:12  <bhasker> ah hmm.
2011-04-16T01:32:20  <Stocha> hi. What's a good map ?
2011-04-16T01:34:50  <Stocha> bhasker: you can use my bot for basic testing if you wish
2011-04-16T01:35:09  <Stocha> although antimatroid had it timeout somehow. others had nor problems
2011-04-16T01:35:27  <bhasker> thanks for the offer will try it out, though for now i am going to spend some time w/ paper and pencil to think my strategy through
2011-04-16T01:35:42  <bhasker> last contest i iterated and edned up with a pile of messy code
2011-04-16T01:35:46  <bhasker> which took forever to clean
2011-04-16T01:35:59  <Stocha> How can you people plan straegy without known what maps will be. that really puzzle me hard.
2011-04-16T01:36:15  <bhasker> maps shouldn't affect strategy
2011-04-16T01:36:26  <Stocha> i don't understand that statement.
2011-04-16T01:36:30  <bhasker> at least the core AI should be adaptable enough to play on any map
2011-04-16T01:36:57  <bhasker> well like the bot i just committed it doesn't even have any knowledge about the map
2011-04-16T01:37:03  <Stocha> I think maps features are more twsited than bots features.
2011-04-16T01:37:05  <bhasker> but it already beats the basic hunter bot
2011-04-16T01:37:23  <Stocha> hunter bot is not even basic.
2011-04-16T01:37:27  <Stocha> it's a starter bot.
2011-04-16T01:37:45  <bhasker> well yea but mostly i don't see how map will change your strategy much
2011-04-16T01:37:47  <Stocha> Simple food gathering with no further moves beat it on the default map.
2011-04-16T01:37:56  <bhasker> default being?
2011-04-16T01:38:05  <bhasker> _10/
2011-04-16T01:38:08  <bhasker> _10 map?
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2011-04-16T01:38:13  <Stocha> the map that is connected to the play_game script. or whatever
2011-04-16T01:38:19  <Stocha> maybe all that changed :p
2011-04-16T01:38:37  <bhasker> i think its the symmetric_10
2011-04-16T01:38:44  <Stocha> Well, i never heard of hunter bot owning anything.
2011-04-16T01:38:47  <Stocha> on any maps.
2011-04-16T01:38:53  <bhasker> mostly though i believe map analytics can be done at startup
2011-04-16T01:39:05  <Stocha> there is fog.
2011-04-16T01:39:18  <bhasker> yes so you build a map iteratively every turn
2011-04-16T01:39:22  <bhasker> updating your knowledge as you go
2011-04-16T01:39:28  <Stocha> sure.
2011-04-16T01:39:37  <Stocha> but there are stochastics features on maps.
2011-04-16T01:39:42  <Stocha> like food spawning.
2011-04-16T01:39:53  <Stocha> or opponents positions.
2011-04-16T01:39:54  <bhasker> if you consider food spawning to be random
2011-04-16T01:40:06  <bhasker> and assume that in most cases your bot will not know where opponents spawn
2011-04-16T01:40:09  <Stocha> and even then by the time you have an idea what the map looks like the game is ended twice.
2011-04-16T01:40:22  <bhasker> i don't see why the overall map matters
2011-04-16T01:40:35  <Stocha> nobody seems to. Maybe i'm just crazy.
2011-04-16T01:40:46  <bhasker> all that matters is the area you can really influence at any turn
2011-04-16T01:40:52  <bhasker> since ants can't fly
2011-04-16T01:40:56  <bhasker> and they move only 1 unit
2011-04-16T01:41:15  <bhasker> the only thing knowing the map might help is with pathingg
2011-04-16T01:41:19  <bhasker> pathing*
2011-04-16T01:41:26  <Stocha> that's a strong statement.
2011-04-16T01:41:42  <bhasker> pathing will allow certain strategies which simple bots won't be able to do
2011-04-16T01:41:49  <bhasker> like going around obstacles
2011-04-16T01:42:05  <Stocha> pathing is the single feature that nobody ever tested a bot without so far.
2011-04-16T01:42:16  <bhasker> thats probably the first thing i am going to implement
2011-04-16T01:42:18  <bhasker> a*
2011-04-16T01:42:27  <bhasker> and see how fast i can move the ants
2011-04-16T01:42:37  <bhasker> with an a* returning next steps to target
2011-04-16T01:42:59  <bhasker> this game is perfect for a*
2011-04-16T01:43:05  <Stocha> there is still no upper bound to the number of ants.
2011-04-16T01:43:16  <Stocha> well maybe 6000 if we keep to what's been said.
2011-04-16T01:43:28  <bhasker> yea well i guess at some point you will reuse paths
2011-04-16T01:43:33  <bhasker> and not compute for every ant
2011-04-16T01:43:40  <Stocha> 256x256 with at most 5% initial food and 4 food/turn.
2011-04-16T01:43:54  <Stocha> 1000 turn long
2011-04-16T01:44:04  <bhasker> that should be interesting
2011-04-16T01:44:04  <Stocha> i think that's the worst upper case so far.
2011-04-16T01:44:11  <bhasker> though i doubt that will work
2011-04-16T01:44:15  <Stocha> i doubt you would find it in though.
2011-04-16T01:44:17  <bhasker> games will slow down to a crawl
2011-04-16T01:44:26  <Stocha> i have tested 256x256 games with 10 000 ants.
2011-04-16T01:44:30  <bhasker> and how does it
2011-04-16T01:44:33  <bhasker> perform
2011-04-16T01:44:35  <Stocha> 100 ms/ turn with 4 bots.
2011-04-16T01:44:41  <Stocha> i have applets
2011-04-16T01:44:45  <Stocha> you can look at it.
2011-04-16T01:44:52  <bhasker> oh k
2011-04-16T01:44:59  <Stocha> although it's only 1 frame very 4 turn.
2011-04-16T01:45:13  <bhasker> ouch
2011-04-16T01:45:26  <bhasker> mostly though i am wondering if i should continue in python
2011-04-16T01:45:31  <bhasker> or just go back to c++ or something
2011-04-16T01:45:33  <Stocha> Big map size http://ns368394.ovh.net/stocha/Unreason_128x128_AntDieOnSameSquare/  Huge map size (upper bound that McLeopold gave for map size) http://ns368394.ovh.net/stocha/Unreason_256x256_AntDieOnSameSquare/
2011-04-16T01:45:45  <Stocha> if you have 64 bits system that should be the same sort of timing i have.
2011-04-16T01:46:24  <antimatroid> i'm with bhasker
2011-04-16T01:46:31  <antimatroid> i ignore map types when writing my bot
2011-04-16T01:46:39  <bhasker> your applet doesn't seem to load very well on my mac laptop
2011-04-16T01:46:50  <antimatroid> bhasker: I wrote the c++ starter bot, use that :P
2011-04-16T01:46:52  <Stocha> i have a mac laptop too
2011-04-16T01:47:05  <Stocha> Mac book pro
2011-04-16T01:47:10  <bhasker> hmm maybe its chrome then let me try with someother browser
2011-04-16T01:47:20  <Stocha> do you have java ?
2011-04-16T01:47:26  <bhasker> yea i do
2011-04-16T01:47:30  <bhasker> anyway will check it out later
2011-04-16T01:47:39  <bhasker> antimatroid are you writing in c++ ?
2011-04-16T01:47:44  <antimatroid> of course
2011-04-16T01:47:46  <bhasker> i miss the flexibility of python
2011-04-16T01:47:51  <bhasker> but the speed blows
2011-04-16T01:47:55  <antimatroid> yeah, i'm slowly learning haskell
2011-04-16T01:48:00  <antimatroid> i don't like python
2011-04-16T01:48:03  <Stocha> i have no problems with chrome also.
2011-04-16T01:48:07  <bhasker> hmm weird
2011-04-16T01:48:12  <bhasker> probably something messed up on laptop
2011-04-16T01:48:20  <antimatroid> the bot should have no effect on what happens in the browser
2011-04-16T01:48:23  <Stocha> antimatroid had problem with my bot too.
2011-04-16T01:48:29  <antimatroid> given the browser is working off replay data
2011-04-16T01:48:36  <Stocha> maybe java just run when it pleases.
2011-04-16T01:48:57  <Stocha> My applet are real time
2011-04-16T01:49:01  <antimatroid> bhasker: give a1k0n a prod for us too would you? :P
2011-04-16T01:49:03  <Stocha> not replays.
2011-04-16T01:49:35  <antimatroid> i would like to see how he does with ants if he has the time/wanted to
2011-04-16T01:49:48  <Stocha> There is the server calculating the result of each turn, and all 4 bots making up their plan and sending them to the server.
2011-04-16T01:49:50  <bhasker> will do, will talk to him tomorrow
2011-04-16T01:51:10  <bhasker> oops i mean monday
2011-04-16T01:51:23  <antimatroid> yeah, i was wondering about that :P
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2011-04-16T01:55:50  <bhasker> btw any idea what version of python will be used this time?
2011-04-16T01:55:51  <bhasker> 2.6?
2011-04-16T01:55:53  <bhasker> 2.5?
2011-04-16T01:56:02  <bhasker> or 3.0?
2011-04-16T01:58:18  <janzert> whatever is in ubuntu, although I'm not sure now whether we'll be using 10.10 (maverick) or 11.04 (natty) now
2011-04-16T02:00:52  <bhasker> btw the python starter bot has a bug
2011-04-16T02:01:00  <bhasker> it uses time.clock()
2011-04-16T02:01:04  <bhasker> which actually measures cpu time
2011-04-16T02:01:06  <bhasker> and not wall time
2011-04-16T02:01:09  <bhasker>     def time_remaining(self):
2011-04-16T02:01:09  <bhasker>         return self.turntime - int(1000 * (time.clock() - self.turn_start_time))
2011-04-16T02:02:16  <janzert> My guess is McLeopold wrote that while developing under windows
2011-04-16T02:02:21  <janzert> :}
2011-04-16T02:02:56  <janzert> certainly should be changed though
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2011-04-16T02:07:06  <bhasker> yea on windows it measures the wall time
2011-04-16T02:07:12  <bhasker> but on unix it measures cpu time
2011-04-16T02:07:23  * janzert nods
2011-04-16T02:07:30  <janzert> I've been caught with that before
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2011-04-16T02:39:31  <antimatroid> it would be awesome to use clock time, but it's always sounded too messy
2011-04-16T02:39:49  <antimatroid> pesky windows :P
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2011-04-16T02:44:22  * sigh is now a resident of sydney
2011-04-16T02:45:27  <antimatroid> sigh: :)
2011-04-16T02:46:45  <sigh> and I have internet, which is all I really need
2011-04-16T02:47:00  <antimatroid> haha, spoken like a true nerd
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2011-04-16T05:19:46  <antimatroid1> wtf chrome
2011-04-16T05:19:50  <antimatroid1> apparently anymore isn't a word
2011-04-16T05:19:56  <antimatroid1> and pidgin
2011-04-16T05:20:09  <antimatroid1> is it?
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2011-04-16T06:37:33  <antimatroid> i need a relation to say a node in a tree preceeds another one
2011-04-16T06:37:38  <antimatroid> like v1 preceeds v2
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2011-04-16T07:37:45  <Stocha> antimatroid what do you mean
2011-04-16T07:37:46  <Stocha> ?
2011-04-16T07:40:11  <Stocha> you want a the isAncestor relation with your tree node. But where is the question ?
2011-04-16T07:44:24  <antimatroid> what should the relation be :P
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2011-04-16T09:32:01  <bhasker> anyone around?
2011-04-16T09:32:44  <bhasker> antimatroid?
2011-04-16T09:32:58  <antimatroid> i'm about
2011-04-16T09:34:29  <bhasker> any reason why server sends us a list of dead ants?
2011-04-16T09:34:37  <bhasker> at a particular square?
2011-04-16T09:38:10  <bhasker> ah nm saw the spec
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2011-04-16T09:44:27  <sigh> what's wrong with a list of dead ants?
2011-04-16T09:47:56  <bhasker> no i was just wondering if there was any reason why the server was sending it other than informational
2011-04-16T09:48:39  <antimatroid> sorry, i was being productive :P
2011-04-16T09:49:03  <antimatroid> need to ride that train whenever it's there
2011-04-16T09:50:52  <bhasker> btw antimatroid you should rename your bug class to something like logger?
2011-04-16T09:51:13  <bhasker> bug seems like some game object rather than a logging class
2011-04-16T09:51:20  <antimatroid> :(
2011-04-16T09:51:22  <bhasker> in the starer bot i.e
2011-04-16T09:51:23  <antimatroid> i like bug
2011-04-16T09:51:26  <antimatroid> i used it for pw
2011-04-16T09:51:32  <bhasker> not all logs are bugs :)
2011-04-16T09:51:41  <antimatroid> bugshit
2011-04-16T09:51:42  <antimatroid> :p
2011-04-16T09:51:57  <bhasker> otherwise its a nicely written starter bot
2011-04-16T09:52:02  <bhasker> i like it better than the python one
2011-04-16T09:52:16  <antimatroid> how'd you like my communist approach?
2011-04-16T09:52:19  <antimatroid> everything is public
2011-04-16T09:52:29  <bhasker> state should be public anyway
2011-04-16T09:52:33  <bhasker> since its a struct
2011-04-16T09:52:46  <antimatroid> yeah, i always just use structs
2011-04-16T09:53:11  <antimatroid> although i've recently broken free of using (abusing) vectors for everything
2011-04-16T09:53:22  <antimatroid> not always, but not as much
2011-04-16T09:53:51  <bhasker> well vectors are meantt o be abused:)
2011-04-16T09:54:01  <bhasker> vector/map/stack/queue etc
2011-04-16T09:54:21  <antimatroid> yep
2011-04-16T09:54:35  <antimatroid> maps are so slow though
2011-04-16T09:54:42  <bhasker> as in?
2011-04-16T09:54:50  <antimatroid> maps or stacks
2011-04-16T09:54:56  <antimatroid> like storing information about visited squares
2011-04-16T09:55:18  <bhasker> well you can always use hash_maps
2011-04-16T09:55:24  <antimatroid> and you can't have a matrix of bools that can be indexed matrix[location] :(
2011-04-16T09:55:40  <bhasker> sure you can why cant you?
2011-04-16T09:55:55  <bhasker> oh as in for maps?
2011-04-16T09:55:57  <antimatroid> because you can't return a reference to an element of a vector of bools in c++ apparently
2011-04-16T09:56:08  <bhasker> you could always just use straight up arrays for that
2011-04-16T09:56:09  <antimatroid> latest stupid thing i've come across (this week even)
2011-04-16T09:56:19  <antimatroid> for a matrix?
2011-04-16T09:56:21  <bhasker> yes
2011-04-16T09:56:26  <delt0r_> antimatroid: don't you just use iterators?
2011-04-16T09:56:31  <antimatroid> can they be variable sized?
2011-04-16T09:56:35  <bhasker> yes
2011-04-16T09:56:36  <antimatroid> delt0r_: not for vectors
2011-04-16T09:57:09  <antimatroid> bhasker: i'll do that thanks :)
2011-04-16T09:57:17  <bhasker> np
2011-04-16T09:57:20  <antimatroid> beats using chars or matrix[location.row][location.col]
2011-04-16T09:57:24  <delt0r_> been a while since i did STL... but i really thought they all support iterators
2011-04-16T09:57:30  <antimatroid> they do
2011-04-16T09:57:30  <bhasker> i am going to do some c++ bot and see, i am tired of the amount of cpu the stupid python one takes
2011-04-16T09:57:37  <antimatroid> but it's just easier to not use them when possible :P
2011-04-16T09:58:40  <antimatroid> i decided i didn't need two templates for my games in my game theory library
2011-04-16T09:58:43  <antimatroid> i think that was a mistake
2011-04-16T09:59:06  <antimatroid> it would be reasonably easy for people to straight up use it in bots with 2
2011-04-16T09:59:35  <bhasker> what does your game theory library provide?
2011-04-16T10:00:46  <antimatroid> it's more for general game theory stuff, but it does 2 player zero sum games, n player normal form and extensive form (with imperfect information) games
2011-04-16T10:00:58  <bhasker> ah k
2011-04-16T10:01:01  <antimatroid> https://github.com/antimatroid/GTL
2011-04-16T10:01:05  <antimatroid> it's slowly being moved to github
2011-04-16T10:01:13  <antimatroid> there is some wiki stuff for normal form games
2011-04-16T10:04:24  <antimatroid> ah damnit, github messed with their wiki settings
2011-04-16T10:04:37  <antimatroid> it screwed me over with the ants spec and that
2011-04-16T10:04:45  <antimatroid> and that's linked on my gsoc application
2011-04-16T10:04:51  <antimatroid> damn github !!
2011-04-16T10:04:55  <bhasker> heh somehow i still find git too complicated :-\
2011-04-16T10:05:06  <antimatroid> so did i, but then it's not too bad
2011-04-16T10:05:07  <needsch> git sucks
2011-04-16T10:05:16  <bhasker> i prefer svn + google code
2011-04-16T10:05:33  <needsch> git is the ordinary linux/unix-style crap
2011-04-16T10:05:45  <needsch> in theory everything is fine but in practice it sucks
2011-04-16T10:05:59  <antimatroid> i switched to ubuntu like a month ago
2011-04-16T10:06:09  <antimatroid> so far it's frozen 3 times, i can't remember the last time xp froze on me
2011-04-16T10:06:12  <antimatroid> otherwise i love it though
2011-04-16T10:07:06  <bhasker> git is nice to fork and track stuff, but really its too complicated to use for most people
2011-04-16T10:07:20  <bhasker> after reading the damn manual multiple times i still can't keep the stuff straight in my head
2011-04-16T10:07:27  <needsch> i love mercurial. especially for its brilliant documentation.
2011-04-16T10:07:57  <needsch> you get a short yet complete description of what any command does with "hg help <command>".
2011-04-16T10:08:23  <needsch> git does *not* offer you that. thats why the wannabe-elite coders love it
2011-04-16T10:08:48  <needsch> but as a developer i dont have the time to fight through such a badass documentation like git's
2011-04-16T10:08:50  <needsch> every time again
2011-04-16T10:09:10  <antimatroid> lol, github wont let me use > in part of a LaTeX section
2011-04-16T10:09:13  <antimatroid> that's ridiculous
2011-04-16T10:09:25  <bhasker> i guess so, i should learn mercurial or something but really i hate learning new source cod control systems
2011-04-16T10:09:32  <bhasker> cvs->svn was a simple enough switch
2011-04-16T10:09:41  <bhasker> but mercurial and git are both very different
2011-04-16T10:09:42  <needsch> yes, I hate that, too. :(
2011-04-16T10:11:19  <antimatroid> \) > \(   what a silly fix
2011-04-16T10:12:04  <antimatroid> (/\)0o
2011-04-16T10:12:32  <antimatroid> it's a sideways pacman
2011-04-16T10:13:22  <delt0r_> antimatroid: What? I have latex in my git
2011-04-16T10:13:30  <delt0r_> it accepts any and all text
2011-04-16T10:13:39  <antimatroid> delt0r_: it wont take < from me anymore
2011-04-16T10:13:42  <antimatroid> it would before
2011-04-16T10:13:49  <antimatroid> i recently had to update the ants spec page too
2011-04-16T10:13:49  <delt0r_> its not git
2011-04-16T10:14:12  <sigh> he's talking about github, not git
2011-04-16T10:14:12  <antimatroid> i don't see how things can stop working that did before and not be git
2011-04-16T10:14:13  <delt0r_> git doesn't care about the content --other than the diff
2011-04-16T10:14:19  <sigh> I think?
2011-04-16T10:14:24  <antimatroid> yes, github
2011-04-16T10:14:36  <delt0r_> it still git... and i use git hub
2011-04-16T10:14:51  <delt0r_> its just git... oh wait are you using some lame web interface?
2011-04-16T10:15:17  <sigh> he's updating the wiki using the web interface
2011-04-16T10:15:19  <antimatroid> i'm making the wiki on their site yeah
2011-04-16T10:15:48  <delt0r_> It will be the html sanitation code... or lack there of
2011-04-16T10:16:05  <antimatroid> whatever they did, they annoyed me
2011-04-16T10:16:11  <delt0r_> I have never used html portal anything with only gmail as an expction
2011-04-16T10:16:26  <delt0r_> html does not like < or >
2011-04-16T10:16:26  <antimatroid> i still have to go and add my email to the end of my pass key every time i want to pull/commit
2011-04-16T10:16:32  <antimatroid> i should really contact them about that
2011-04-16T10:16:47  <antimatroid> it worked for me a couple of weeks ago
2011-04-16T10:17:00  <sigh> antimatroid: you can try cloning the GLT.wiki repo and editing locally
2011-04-16T10:17:13  <sigh> *GTL.wiki
2011-04-16T10:17:29  <antimatroid> sigh: surely the problem is with them displaying it and not saving the file?
2011-04-16T10:17:44  <sigh> *shrug* i dunno
2011-04-16T10:18:03  <delt0r_> antimatroid: I would guess so
2011-04-16T10:18:05  <sigh> if it's screwing up pages that were working before, then you are right
2011-04-16T10:18:08  <antimatroid> that page was broken then before i even touched it, and i doubt the file automatically changed
2011-04-16T10:18:16  <antimatroid> that page being https://github.com/antimatroid/GTL/wiki/Normal-Form-Algorithms
2011-04-16T10:18:16  <sigh> ok then, yeah
2011-04-16T10:18:18  <antimatroid> which i fixed
2011-04-16T10:21:27  <bhasker> antimatroid another change i would recommend for the c++ starter bot
2011-04-16T10:21:34  <bhasker> make the logger a singleton
2011-04-16T10:21:42  <bhasker> and don't tie it to the state class as an instance variable
2011-04-16T10:21:56  <bhasker> i shouldn't need to have a state object to log something
2011-04-16T10:22:13  <antimatroid> you lost me at singleton :P
2011-04-16T10:22:34  <bhasker> well singleton is a pattern, mostly you create at most one instance of it at any time
2011-04-16T10:22:47  <sigh> it's like a global variable :P
2011-04-16T10:22:47  <antimatroid> and then it's global?
2011-04-16T10:22:54  <bhasker> well its different from globals
2011-04-16T10:22:55  <antimatroid> ah, i always wanted stuff like that
2011-04-16T10:23:01  <bhasker> globals are initialized at startup
2011-04-16T10:23:12  <bhasker> singletons lifetime is managed from first invokation
2011-04-16T10:23:17  <bhasker> invocation*
2011-04-16T10:23:39  <bhasker> and more importantly constructors are hidden away
2011-04-16T10:23:47  <bhasker> one can never directly construct a singleton class
2011-04-16T10:24:05  <bhasker> normally singletons will expose a getInstance() or some method named like that
2011-04-16T10:24:12  <bhasker> which will intenrally construct the instance and keep a reference
2011-04-16T10:24:24  <bhasker> either via a private static member variable
2011-04-16T10:24:28  <bhasker> or a function static
2011-04-16T10:24:47  <antimatroid> sounds complicated for a "starter bot"
2011-04-16T10:24:57  <bhasker> let me give you a simple logger class
2011-04-16T10:25:03  <bhasker> that works
2011-04-16T10:25:07  <antimatroid> okay
2011-04-16T10:25:14  <antimatroid> normally i just have Bug *bug in state
2011-04-16T10:25:27  <antimatroid> so i can have my states in the game tree nodes
2011-04-16T10:25:57  <antimatroid> but i didn't want to give people a starter bot with pointers
2011-04-16T10:26:15  <antimatroid> *bug << isn't as nice
2011-04-16T10:28:10  <bhasker> i guess thats fine
2011-04-16T10:28:43  <bhasker> one thing your class lacks is debug levels which are kind of useful
2011-04-16T10:31:41  <antimatroid> yeah they could be
2011-04-16T10:32:04  <antimatroid> would sort of be hard to do it with the << format
2011-04-16T10:32:09  <bhasker> yes it would be
2011-04-16T10:32:19  <antimatroid> and i love the << format :P
2011-04-16T10:32:30  <bhasker> i guess so
2011-04-16T10:32:57  <antimatroid> i don't understand why they don't overload them the other direction
2011-04-16T10:33:05  <bhasker> as in?
2011-04-16T10:33:17  <antimatroid> so you could be like if((n << cin) < 10)
2011-04-16T10:33:26  <bhasker> you would do
2011-04-16T10:33:30  <bhasker> cin >> n ?
2011-04-16T10:33:35  <antimatroid> that returns cin
2011-04-16T10:33:38  <bhasker> ah
2011-04-16T10:34:16  <bhasker> i guess you could overload it that way
2011-04-16T10:34:36  <bhasker> or can't you hmm so long since i wrote overloaded operators etc in c++
2011-04-16T10:34:41  <antimatroid> i have at times for things, but i don't understand why that isn't standard :\
2011-04-16T10:35:04  <bhasker> cause you can't chain?
2011-04-16T10:35:04  <antimatroid> you can do it for everything with templates even
2011-04-16T10:35:19  <antimatroid> the point of it is to use it inline
2011-04-16T10:35:34  <bhasker> yes i guess if its important enough you could write one up but stl doesn't cover every case
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2011-04-16T10:35:44  <antimatroid> stl tries to :P
2011-04-16T10:35:45  <bhasker> you know what i am realizing why i don't like coding in c++ as much lol
2011-04-16T10:35:52  <bhasker> its too goddamn verbose to do anything
2011-04-16T10:35:56  <antimatroid> yeah, i am trying to get away from it
2011-04-16T10:36:04  <antimatroid> but i don't like python
2011-04-16T10:36:11  <bhasker> why is that?
2011-04-16T10:36:13  <antimatroid> and i don't understand haskell enough to jump yet
2011-04-16T10:36:29  <antimatroid> it's slow and not very pretty
2011-04-16T10:36:49  <antimatroid> i'm not overly convinced on all of haskell either, some of it i really like, other bits i'm like hmmm
2011-04-16T10:37:00  <bhasker> python is fine as long as you understand what parts not to use
2011-04-16T10:37:06  <bhasker> as long as use tuples and lists you are fine
2011-04-16T10:37:09  <bhasker> just don't use dictionaries
2011-04-16T10:37:19  <antimatroid> hehe, tell that to sigh and McLeopold
2011-04-16T10:37:20  <bhasker> especially don't use python classes
2011-04-16T10:37:28  <antimatroid> they insisted i use a dictionary when writing a map analyser
2011-04-16T10:37:50  <bhasker> well dictionary is fine but its slow especially if you have to copy them around
2011-04-16T10:38:04  <bhasker> i had to rewrite a lot of crap for my planetwars bot
2011-04-16T10:38:07  <bhasker> to use tuples
2011-04-16T10:38:19  <bhasker> i had a state class and deep copying it was SLOW as hell
2011-04-16T10:38:32  <bhasker> so i rewrote the state as a bunch of tuples
2011-04-16T10:38:36  <antimatroid> yeah i remember you guys complaining about that :P
2011-04-16T10:38:45  <bhasker> and copying tuples was way way faster
2011-04-16T10:38:53  <bhasker> but then you lose the pretty syntax
2011-04-16T10:38:58  <bhasker> and everything becomes indexed
2011-04-16T10:39:02  <bhasker> which is kinda annoying
2011-04-16T10:39:08  <antimatroid> i wish c++ had tuples
2011-04-16T10:39:17  <bhasker> hmm structs?
2011-04-16T10:39:18  <antimatroid> i have Triple and Quad defined already for my ants bot
2011-04-16T10:39:22  <bhasker> are the same thing?
2011-04-16T10:39:45  <bhasker> a plain struct with no data members is pretty much the same thing
2011-04-16T10:39:58  <bhasker> oops not data members
2011-04-16T10:40:04  <antimatroid> yeah, they're structs
2011-04-16T10:40:05  <bhasker> i meant member fns etc
2011-04-16T10:40:09  <antimatroid> but it's silly having to define them
2011-04-16T10:40:14  <bhasker> as in?
2011-04-16T10:40:26  <bhasker> c++ gives you nice syntatic sugar to access individual parts
2011-04-16T10:40:34  <antimatroid> like template<class A, class B, class C> struct Triple...
2011-04-16T10:40:42  <bhasker> ah
2011-04-16T10:41:15  <antimatroid> then one needs to define < for any ordering etc.
2011-04-16T10:43:00  <bhasker> ah true
2011-04-16T10:43:12  <bhasker> k its done i am going back to python for ants no matter how slow it is
2011-04-16T10:43:21  <bhasker> i can't deal with c++'s syntactic issues
2011-04-16T10:43:33  <antimatroid> :p
2011-04-16T10:43:45  <antimatroid> you'll be back
2011-04-16T10:43:59  <antimatroid> people are going to need the speed i think
2011-04-16T10:44:08  <bhasker> i think i will not make the mistakes i did with planetwars
2011-04-16T10:44:31  <bhasker> only thing that concerns me is pathfinding might be a bit too slow on python
2011-04-16T10:44:37  <bhasker> especially solving for a large number of ants
2011-04-16T10:44:58  <antimatroid> you can search from all ants simultaneously, but still need to move them all
2011-04-16T10:45:23  <antimatroid> A* isn't very helpful when you don't really have an obvious target when you start searching
2011-04-16T10:45:50  <antimatroid> what are you doing for food collection?
2011-04-16T10:46:19  <antimatroid> my base example is as follows:
2011-04-16T10:46:19  <antimatroid> *..a...*
2011-04-16T10:46:19  <antimatroid> *..a...*
2011-04-16T10:46:30  <antimatroid> do you move them optimally there?
2011-04-16T10:47:20  <bhasker> right now i haven't even thought of my strategy
2011-04-16T10:47:40  <bhasker> well there will be targets
2011-04-16T10:47:45  <bhasker> like move to closest enemy
2011-04-16T10:47:48  <bhasker> or closest food
2011-04-16T10:48:12  <bhasker> and a* will be useful in going around obstacles
2011-04-16T10:48:18  <bhasker> otherwise your ant may run into walls
2011-04-16T10:48:35  <antimatroid> but you don't know what the closest food/enemy square is until you search
2011-04-16T10:48:46  <antimatroid> it's easy to not search onto water
2011-04-16T10:49:08  <bhasker> well i would just simply look for food by distance around the ant
2011-04-16T10:49:33  <bhasker> and maybe try a couple of the closer ones create a path
2011-04-16T10:49:34  <antimatroid> if you add all ants locations to a queue, you can do a bfs from all simultaneously to find the ant closest to a food square
2011-04-16T10:49:37  <bhasker> and measure path length
2011-04-16T10:49:50  <bhasker> hmm probably
2011-04-16T10:49:59  <antimatroid> if you update when a square will be "available" on each iteration, you can move them optimally in the above situation
2011-04-16T10:50:03  <antimatroid> that's what i'm currently doing
2011-04-16T10:51:34  <bhasker> lets see what i come up with right now i need to think a bit more on this, i am also going to see if flocking would be useful
2011-04-16T10:51:47  <bhasker> like breaking up the ants into squads and making them flock around
2011-04-16T10:51:52  <antimatroid> yep
2011-04-16T10:51:57  <antimatroid> i don't think it will be
2011-04-16T10:52:15  <bhasker> why do you think it wont be
2011-04-16T10:52:21  <bhasker> given the damage rules
2011-04-16T10:52:25  <antimatroid> i'm planning to do food collection somewhat like above, a game tree for any ant that may land in a battle and then heuristic everything else
2011-04-16T10:52:26  <bhasker> i think it will be useful
2011-04-16T10:52:45  <antimatroid> then the game tree should handle flocking in a way
2011-04-16T10:52:48  <antimatroid> but only when it's needed
2011-04-16T10:53:04  <bhasker> i doubt i will use any sort of game tree but lets see
2011-04-16T10:53:19  <antimatroid> but yes, i was very much in favour of the fighting rule specifically because it encourages bunching up for fights
2011-04-16T10:53:30  <antimatroid> everything else already encourages spreading, it's good to have balance
2011-04-16T10:53:35  <bhasker> this rule is fine
2011-04-16T10:53:40  <bhasker> since it spreads damage
2011-04-16T10:53:46  <bhasker> having more of your ants closeby
2011-04-16T10:53:46  <antimatroid> this is the second best rule
2011-04-16T10:53:48  <bhasker> will help
2011-04-16T10:53:52  <antimatroid> but people didn't understand the best rule
2011-04-16T10:54:45  <antimatroid> my heuristics for moving non battle and non food collecting ants is going to be a combination of moving towards squares not recently seen and pairing ants up with visible enemy ants, so that should handle sending them closer to the enemy
2011-04-16T10:54:50  <antimatroid> i just have to play around with all that
2011-04-16T10:55:08  <bhasker> yup my greedy bot does something like that at a very basic level
2011-04-16T10:55:17  <bhasker> it moves to food if its closeby
2011-04-16T10:55:24  <bhasker> if no food then moves to nearby enemy
2011-04-16T10:55:32  <antimatroid> i've discovered it's very hard to move ants to "not recently seen squares" in a smart manner
2011-04-16T10:55:36  <bhasker> if neither then does a random move to a non explored square if possible
2011-04-16T10:55:39  <antimatroid> as you end up sending too many to the one patch
2011-04-16T10:56:00  <bhasker> well i just add the square to a site not be sent to
2011-04-16T10:56:02  <antimatroid> the best option is to probably bomb visibility where you plan to send the ant on each iteration, but that's costly
2011-04-16T10:56:20  <bhasker> hmm
2011-04-16T10:57:00  <antimatroid> otherwise you end up with ants all over the place moving back and forth, often more than is necessary in each section
2011-04-16T10:58:02  <bhasker> true
2011-04-16T10:58:16  <bhasker> anyway gotta run now, will spend some time thinking on the game before i write any code this time
2011-04-16T10:59:18  <antimatroid> yep
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2011-04-16T16:52:03  <bhasker> amstan do we have a final python version for the contest?
2011-04-16T16:52:17  <bhasker> cause i want to make use of certain syntactic sugar which is only available in 3.x
2011-04-16T16:52:25  <amstan> 3.x, no way
2011-04-16T16:52:46  <amstan> unless we implement it as a separate language
2011-04-16T16:52:49  <bhasker> ah k
2011-04-16T16:52:52  <bhasker> so 2.5 or 2.6?
2011-04-16T16:52:55  <amstan> go with 2.6
2011-04-16T16:52:56  <bhasker> k
2011-04-16T16:52:58  <bhasker> thanks
2011-04-16T16:53:16  <amstan> if 2.7 is supported in the new ubuntu, and we switch to it, we might use it
2011-04-16T16:53:18  <janzert> at least 2.6, possibly 2.7
2011-04-16T16:53:33  <bhasker> k cool thanks
2011-04-16T16:53:40  <janzert> and for sure not 3.x :)
2011-04-16T16:54:06  <bhasker> kk
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2011-04-16T16:54:23  <janzert> well, I was thinking of trying to make it available for contestants but don't rely on that in any way shape or form
2011-04-16T16:55:34  <bhasker> i was just mostly looking for the syntactic sugar to access tuple indexes by name
2011-04-16T16:55:48  <bhasker> will make it a lot more readable
2011-04-16T16:56:22  <janzert> really I'm probably more likely to put effort in getting pypy available for contestants before py3 ;)
2011-04-16T16:57:24  <janzert> use a namedtuple
2011-04-16T16:57:36  <janzert> for your access tuple indexes by name that is
2011-04-16T16:57:57  <bhasker> thats what i was looking at
2011-04-16T16:58:01  <bhasker> is that available in 2.6?
2011-04-16T16:58:10  <janzert> since 2.6, yes
2011-04-16T16:58:15  <bhasker> i forget i was trying to use it for last contest and couldn't since 2.5 doesn't support it
2011-04-16T16:58:29  <bhasker> dictionaries in python are super slow:-\
2011-04-16T16:58:34  <bhasker> and objects are horrible
2011-04-16T16:58:51  <janzert> well a namedtuple will almost certainly be slower
2011-04-16T16:59:05  <bhasker> does it also use a dictionary?
2011-04-16T16:59:06  <janzert> since it's just a class
2011-04-16T16:59:14  <bhasker> sigh
2011-04-16T16:59:28  <janzert> I'm not sure of the internal implementation but it's going to be doing the object method lookups at least
2011-04-16T17:00:07  <janzert> you really want pypy with its jit :)
2011-04-16T17:00:20  <bhasker> i guess so :) or just go down to c++
2011-04-16T17:00:43  <bhasker> i had to rewrite a large part of my codebase last time since stupid object copy was ultra slow
2011-04-16T17:00:51  <bhasker> had to move all state information into tuples
2011-04-16T17:00:55  <janzert> yeah, I have a feeling this contest will be more like tron than planetwars in regards to language speed being important
2011-04-16T17:01:20  <janzert> i.e. it will be fairly important
2011-04-16T17:01:27  <bhasker> hmm
2011-04-16T17:01:54  <janzert> so if you found python too slow for planetwars I expect it will only be worse for ants
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2011-04-16T17:03:15  <bhasker> i guess pythong was slow also because of my lack of knowledge of costs involved with certain operations
2011-04-16T17:03:27  <bhasker> only learnt those things towards the end of the competition
2011-04-16T17:03:37  <bhasker> but i found a few things annoying overall
2011-04-16T17:03:45  <bhasker> object copies are extremely expensive
2011-04-16T17:04:14  <bhasker> so i had to break encapsulation and access member variables directly and store stuff in tuple of tuples
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2011-04-16T17:08:10  <janzert> do you mean method calls are expensive? (which is certainly true) I'm not sure how breaking encapsulation, etc. follows from expensive object copies
2011-04-16T17:08:23  <janzert> I suppose I'd have to have seen the code :)
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2011-04-16T17:31:30  <bhasker> oh sorry unrelated things
2011-04-16T17:31:54  <bhasker> i was using getter/setters and it was ultra slow vs accessing member variables directly
2011-04-16T17:32:10  <bhasker> and then i was trying to build a min max tree which required me to copy state
2011-04-16T17:32:24  <janzert> ahh, makes more sense :)
2011-04-16T17:32:28  <bhasker> and when i was storing the state in a nice class it was like an order of magnitude slower
2011-04-16T17:32:40  <bhasker> than storing in a tuple an copying tuples around
2011-04-16T17:32:55  <bhasker> the problem with latter was that everything has to be subscripted by indexes
2011-04-16T17:33:01  <bhasker> which makes for really ugly looking code
2011-04-16T17:33:48  <bhasker> then logging can really slow down python even if nothing is output
2011-04-16T17:34:04  <bhasker> just constructing the log strings alone added quite a bit of slowdown
2011-04-16T17:34:34  <bhasker> how much of a speed up does pypy give?
2011-04-16T17:34:49  <bhasker> i tried it for the planetwars and didn't see that much of an increase frankly
2011-04-16T17:34:58  <bhasker> on my local machine i.e
2011-04-16T17:35:32  <janzert> depends on the code being run of course http://speed.pypy.org/
2011-04-16T17:36:58  <bhasker> hmm looks like it only supports 2.5 features
2011-04-16T17:37:10  <bhasker> so if we want to support 2.6 then that rules out 2.5 kind of
2011-04-16T17:37:19  <bhasker> oops rules out pypy
2011-04-16T17:37:53  <janzert> the just merged in their 2.7 compatibility branch recently
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2011-04-16T17:38:04  <janzert> but it hasn't been included in a release yet, no
2011-04-16T17:38:19  <bhasker> ah k
2011-04-16T17:38:37  <janzert> and pypy would only be an alternative if supported at all
2011-04-16T17:38:58  <janzert> i.e. would have to mark your submission in some way to have it run with pypy instead of cpython
2011-04-16T17:39:33  <janzert> the default python for submissions will stay with a cpython version
2011-04-16T17:40:06  <bhasker> ah k
2011-04-16T18:01:36  <McLeopold> bhasker: I think we can do both python 2.7 and python 3.2
2011-04-16T18:01:57  <McLeopold> We can use the extension "py3" for python 3.2
2011-04-16T18:02:01  <bhasker> oh that might be interesting
2011-04-16T18:03:15  <McLeopold> hmm... ubuntu seems to be stuck on 2.6 and 3.1 :(
2011-04-16T18:03:46  <bhasker> heh its fine, i think 99% i am going to code in c++ this time
2011-04-16T18:04:00  <jbroman> McLeopold: Natty has 2.7 and 3.2.
2011-04-16T18:04:10  <bhasker> i am tinkering around with antimatroid's starter bot
2011-04-16T18:04:21  <bhasker> and changing things around a bit
2011-04-16T18:05:24  <McLeopold> jbroman: is version 10.10 map to a named version?
2011-04-16T18:05:39  <jbroman> McLeopold: 10.10 is Maverick, 11.04 is Natty.
2011-04-16T18:05:41  <janzert> 10.10 is maverick
2011-04-16T18:06:07  <McLeopold> so, natty is still unstable right now?
2011-04-16T18:06:09  <jbroman> Natty is scheduled for release in 12 days.
2011-04-16T18:06:17  <jbroman> Currently beta.
2011-04-16T18:06:26  <McLeopold> close enough
2011-04-16T18:06:34  <McLeopold> that's when we release :)
2011-04-16T18:09:41  <McLeopold> bhasker: what should I use instead of time.clock?
2011-04-16T18:09:48  <bhasker> time.time()
2011-04-16T18:09:54  <bhasker> that uses gettimeofday internally
2011-04-16T18:10:01  <bhasker> which always gives wall clock time
2011-04-16T18:10:35  <McLeopold> the docs say you can't be ensured a better resolution than 1 second
2011-04-16T18:11:07  <janzert> you will get at least millisecond resolution on linux and windows though
2011-04-16T18:11:21  <janzert> I'm not sure what platform gives less actually
2011-04-16T18:11:46  <McLeopold> I guess it just means to check the platform for the resolution
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2011-04-16T18:49:55  <jaycobcoleman> Even though it isn't explicitly given, couldn't you pretty easily determine the number of players based on the dimensions of the map?
2011-04-16T18:51:08  <McLeopold> we are trying to prevent that
2011-04-16T18:51:19  <jaycobcoleman> How?
2011-04-16T18:51:40  <McLeopold> You'd have to find a second ant and then assume the rows/cols are a multiple of where it probably started
2011-04-16T18:52:19  <McLeopold> antimatroid uses a system of shearing the map so that no player starts in the same row/col, so you can't make that assumption
2011-04-16T18:52:45  <jaycobcoleman> So I saw. That's smart
2011-04-16T18:53:29  <McLeopold> Even so, by the time you get the information on the maps size, you probably have seen all the players, and vice versa
2011-04-16T18:54:28  <jaycobcoleman> indeed. So probably not worth the effort trying to exploit in the first place
2011-04-16T18:54:48  <McLeopold> Even if you were told the number of players, what would you do with it?
2011-04-16T18:55:07  <jaycobcoleman> gather data specific to each bot
2011-04-16T18:55:12  <McLeopold> You still need to multiple, explore the map, kill enemy ants and such
2011-04-16T18:55:51  <jaycobcoleman> It'll help me determine the best course of action when dealing with a specific bot
2011-04-16T18:56:01  <McLeopold> I think the only player information that would be valuable would be where there are probably going to attack next, and a simple number of players won't really help with that.
2011-04-16T18:56:30  <jaycobcoleman> Yes I agree. I was simply curious
2011-04-16T18:56:52  <McLeopold> You won't be told who you are fighting against, so you can't code for specific bots.  All you can do is observe behaviour
2011-04-16T18:57:15  <jaycobcoleman> That is the plan as of now.
2011-04-16T19:15:00  <bhasker> mcleopold are you planning to implement some interesting bots lke last time?
2011-04-16T19:15:05  <bhasker> it was fun seeing your bots in action
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2011-04-16T19:40:13  <antimatroid> bhasker: I told you you'd be back :P
2011-04-16T19:40:18  <antimatroid> that didn't even take a day
2011-04-16T19:42:32  <antimatroid> also, determining the number of players gives you (or at least really helps you to get) row and col translate, which gives you information about n water squares every time you see one
2011-04-16T19:45:26  <jaycobcoleman> seems a little like cheating to me
2011-04-16T19:47:01  <bhasker> yes but i am rewriting parts of your code to make it a little easier to play around with
2011-04-16T19:47:51  <bhasker> i just noticed your starter bot actually dies in 2 moves:-\
2011-04-16T19:48:05  <bhasker> it doesn't check if the spot its moving into is already occupied
2011-04-16T19:48:16  <bhasker> and i think sometimes it moves its 2nd ant on top of the first one
2011-04-16T19:48:17  <bhasker> gg
2011-04-16T19:48:56  <bhasker> also another thing that will be useful will be to store per square if there is ant there and the owner of the ant
2011-04-16T19:49:01  <bhasker> right now it marks it if there is an ant there
2011-04-16T19:49:04  <bhasker> but not the owner of the ant
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2011-04-16T20:04:48  <antimatroid> jacobcoleman: what is cheating?
2011-04-16T20:05:09  <antimatroid> bhasker: i was told i have to do that in the starter bot
2011-04-16T20:05:37  <jaycobcoleman> giving your ants an awareness that they're part of a cookie-cutter world
2011-04-16T20:05:40  <antimatroid> the starter bot strategy only blocks movement into water, otherwise it's a place for people to start from
2011-04-16T20:07:23  <jaycobcoleman> and no it isn't really cheating, I know. But cheating in spirit
2011-04-16T20:07:51  <antimatroid> it's not cheating in spirit
2011-04-16T20:08:01  <antimatroid> if something is possible, it's easier to just declare it fair play
2011-04-16T20:08:09  <antimatroid> it's like saying screen watching on goldeneye is cheating
2011-04-16T20:08:20  <antimatroid> it's not if you just declare that fair play, which is the only way to stop people cheating
2011-04-16T20:08:22  <jaycobcoleman> Haha, some people do
2011-04-16T20:08:32  <janzert> alls well and good until you end up on a map that was generated in a way you aren't expecting :)
2011-04-16T20:08:39  <jaycobcoleman> I'm totally fine with that
2011-04-16T20:08:51  <antimatroid> yep, hopefully we can have lots of different types of maps
2011-04-16T20:09:08  <antimatroid> i have put a bit of thought in trying to make it VERY hard for people to get information like mentioned
2011-04-16T20:09:31  <jaycobcoleman> Oh it's on
2011-04-16T20:09:46  <antimatroid> with some testing, i think all maps should be 120x120
2011-04-16T20:09:55  <jaycobcoleman> Why is that?
2011-04-16T20:10:12  <antimatroid> it's the lcm of like (2,3,4,5,6,8,10,12)
2011-04-16T20:10:21  <jaycobcoleman> Very very good point
2011-04-16T20:10:29  <antimatroid> so you can use number of players from that set and not given them information about the number of players
2011-04-16T20:10:56  <jaycobcoleman> I was definitely thinking about that yesterday
2011-04-16T20:11:49  <antimatroid> i might make another map gen later
2011-04-16T20:12:01  <antimatroid> to do a completely different symmetry
2011-04-16T20:12:21  <antimatroid> we need to update the map file format so the engine can know what type of map it has, and use the appropriate spawning method
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2011-04-16T20:30:42  <jaycobcoleman> animatroid: Can't we just keep different map types in different directories based on type and  choose spawning method based on that?
2011-04-16T20:44:36  <antimatroid> jacobcoleman: it would be better if the engine could just be passed any map file
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2011-04-16T22:06:29  <bhasker> antimatroid well the python one ensures that it doesn't do that
2011-04-16T22:06:47  <antimatroid> doesn't do what?
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2011-04-16T22:10:00  <bhasker> that it doesn't walk onto other ants
2011-04-16T22:16:11  <antimatroid> McLeopold: are you avoiding collisions in your starter bot?
2011-04-16T22:16:34  <antimatroid> also, where does unix store my application stuff like for latex?
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2011-04-16T23:34:28  <bhasker> k finally got the damn bot working