2011-05-01T00:01:23  <antimatroid> afternoon
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2011-05-01T04:58:35  <jaycobcoleman> must...break...hours of silence...
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2011-05-01T05:21:54  <mcstar> now fix it if u broke it
2011-05-01T05:22:05  <mcstar> f i brok eit too
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2011-05-01T05:43:16  <antimatroid> i'm with mcstar
2011-05-01T05:43:26  <antimatroid> you need to fix the silence
2011-05-01T05:44:01  <antimatroid> here's something for people to discuss with me...
2011-05-01T05:44:13  <antimatroid> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matching_pennies
2011-05-01T05:44:21  <antimatroid> that game is not symmetric under any definition i have
2011-05-01T05:51:31  <mcstar> reading the introduction i must conclude that it is
2011-05-01T05:51:56  <antimatroid> why?
2011-05-01T05:52:20  <mcstar> i could alsa ask why not?
2011-05-01T05:52:38  <antimatroid> most people define a game as symmetric if it remains unchanged from a permutation of the players
2011-05-01T05:52:44  <antimatroid> i generalise that
2011-05-01T05:52:58  <antimatroid> and require there exists some permutation of players strategies that allows that property
2011-05-01T05:53:08  <antimatroid> but even if i generalise like that, matching pennies is not symmetric
2011-05-01T05:53:30  <mcstar> (h,h)(h,t)(t,h)(t,t)
2011-05-01T05:53:46  <mcstar> if (h,h)or(t,t) A wins
2011-05-01T05:53:54  <mcstar> if (t,h)or(h,t) B wins
2011-05-01T05:54:12  <mcstar> i dont see any problem with this
2011-05-01T05:54:20  <antimatroid> the game is fair yes
2011-05-01T05:54:23  <antimatroid> but it's not symmetric
2011-05-01T05:54:31  <antimatroid> you can't premute the players and get the same game back
2011-05-01T05:54:52  <antimatroid> the role of player 1 and player 2 are opposite, player 1 is trying to match strategies while player 2 is trying to not match them
2011-05-01T05:56:34  <mcstar> i dont know
2011-05-01T05:57:10  <mcstar> even the payoff matrix is symmetric
2011-05-01T05:57:15  <antimatroid> it's not
2011-05-01T05:57:31  <antimatroid> well the payoff matrices are symmetric
2011-05-01T05:57:40  <antimatroid> but the players payoff matrices aren't transposes of each other
2011-05-01T05:57:41  <mcstar> so the game is fair
2011-05-01T05:57:52  <antimatroid> which is the 2 player condition for symmetric game
2011-05-01T05:57:59  <antimatroid> without considering permutations of strategies
2011-05-01T05:58:55  <antimatroid> intuitively I want to scream but it's obviously symmetric
2011-05-01T05:59:02  <antimatroid> but the definitions that seem most intuitive disagree
2011-05-01T05:59:23  <mcstar> u mean asymmetric
2011-05-01T05:59:34  <antimatroid> no?
2011-05-01T05:59:52  <mcstar> that game is not symmetric under any definition i have
2011-05-01T05:59:54  <antimatroid> the game seems like it should be symmetric, but the intuitive definitions for symmetry of a game imply it shouldn't be smmetric
2011-05-01T05:59:57  <mcstar> quoting u
2011-05-01T06:00:01  <antimatroid> exactly
2011-05-01T06:00:23  <antimatroid> but intuitively the game looks like it should be "symmetric" yes?
2011-05-01T06:00:23  <mcstar> so
2011-05-01T06:00:55  <mcstar> i guess it means that player A should have a different startegy than player B
2011-05-01T06:01:10  <mcstar> so its not like the prisoner dilemma
2011-05-01T06:01:19  <antimatroid> ?
2011-05-01T06:01:23  <antimatroid> prisoners dilemma is symmetric
2011-05-01T06:01:27  <mcstar> yes
2011-05-01T06:01:33  <mcstar> but this games seems it isnt
2011-05-01T06:01:38  <antimatroid> although if PD = (A, B), i'm unsure about whether (A, 2B) should be symmetric
2011-05-01T06:01:46  <antimatroid> the structure of the game is very much the same
2011-05-01T06:01:58  <antimatroid> the best response corresponses are the "same" i'm pretty sure
2011-05-01T06:02:08  <mcstar> hey u lost me there
2011-05-01T06:02:18  <antimatroid> PD = prisoners dilemma
2011-05-01T06:02:46  <antimatroid> if A = [2, 1; 4, 3] and B = [2, 3; 1, 4] then (A, B) gives PD
2011-05-01T06:03:00  <antimatroid> but if you take 2B, then (A, 2B) pretty much gives the same game
2011-05-01T06:03:23  <antimatroid> but then you don't have A = (2B)^T
2011-05-01T06:03:56  <antimatroid> i'm trying to come up with definitions of equivalence and symmetry that allows "nice" partitions of games into classes
2011-05-01T06:06:21  <antimatroid> i was thinking before, could we actually solve for a mixed strategy that dominated a pure strategy with our fourier-motzkin thing?
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2011-05-01T06:06:41  * mcstar out
2011-05-01T06:06:53  <antimatroid> ah yeah, that last line was for a friend :P
2011-05-01T06:07:00  <mcstar> ok
2011-05-01T06:07:17  <mcstar> i really cant discuss this with you :)
2011-05-01T06:07:35  <antimatroid> i know, i was just looking for more opinions on matchings pennies
2011-05-01T06:07:45  <antimatroid> i had always just assumed it is symmetric
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2011-05-01T08:47:17  <mcstar> ahahhaha
2011-05-01T08:47:25  <mcstar> i just had a big common lisp gotcha
2011-05-01T08:47:30  <mcstar> my first big one
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2011-05-01T09:41:10  <Stocha> maybe it's simply time to delete the "r" spec/implementation part, and avoid a lot of endless arguing in the future. Or at least make it clear in the spec the R line is useless, so people won't inquire and try to understand the meaning of it.
2011-05-01T09:41:52  <Stocha> seeing how it went between sigh and Akl0n
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2011-05-01T10:29:06  <bhasker> morning
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2011-05-01T10:50:11  <bhasker> anyone around
2011-05-01T10:50:14  <bhasker> sigh? antimatroid?
2011-05-01T10:50:23  <antimatroid> yellow bottle
2011-05-01T10:50:45  <antimatroid> morning
2011-05-01T10:51:37  <antimatroid> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FOZO0WWULLA :p
2011-05-01T10:55:55  <bhasker> btw
2011-05-01T10:56:01  <bhasker> given that spawn radius is sqrt(2)
2011-05-01T10:56:11  <bhasker> shouldn't diagonal squares cause an ant to spawn as well
2011-05-01T10:56:28  <bhasker> right now the engine doesn't spawn ants if you are diagonally adjacent
2011-05-01T10:56:59  <bhasker> looking at the code i think this is the function that is to blame for that
2011-05-01T10:57:06  <bhasker>     def nearby_ants(self, loc, max_dist, exclude=None):
2011-05-01T10:57:07  <bhasker>         """ Returns ants where 0 < dist to loc <= sqrt(max_dist)
2011-05-01T10:57:16  <bhasker> we should probably add an epsilon to max_dist
2011-05-01T10:57:21  <antimatroid> spawn radius is sqrt(1)
2011-05-01T10:57:24  <bhasker> to make sure diagonal squares cause spawn
2011-05-01T10:57:29  <bhasker> the spec says sqrt(2)
2011-05-01T10:57:35  <antimatroid> specs is old :P
2011-05-01T10:57:38  <bhasker> ..
2011-05-01T10:57:39  <bhasker> :p
2011-05-01T10:58:09  <antimatroid> we have spawn2 = 1, battle2 = 4 and view2 = 55
2011-05-01T10:58:13  <antimatroid> maxTurns = 1000
2011-05-01T11:04:10  <antimatroid> http://www.craigslist.org/about/best/lax/35274458.html
2011-05-01T11:04:20  <antimatroid> that has to be one of the funniest things i have ever read
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2011-05-01T11:13:56  <computerwiz_222> antimatroid: seconded, that was hilarious
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2011-05-01T11:38:55  <mcstar> how nice
2011-05-01T11:39:16  <mcstar> right click on a youtube movie
2011-05-01T11:39:23  <mcstar> click pop out
2011-05-01T11:39:51  <mcstar> and the movie starts in a resized window just like a movie player program
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2011-05-01T14:54:44  <a1k0n> haha.  i just made my tron bot (from three contests ago) search twice as fast with a relatively simple change
2011-05-01T14:55:02  <a1k0n> oh well!
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2011-05-01T15:10:07  <mcstar> yeeeha
2011-05-01T15:10:19  <mcstar> my bot can read turn 0 in 90 lines
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2011-05-01T17:35:18  <mcstar> hypertriangle is down :(
2011-05-01T17:35:29  <mcstar> i cant access game specs
2011-05-01T17:35:39  * mcstar cries heavily
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2011-05-01T17:46:03  <mcstar> well i found the wike on github
2011-05-01T17:46:12  <mcstar> which i have forgot about
2011-05-01T17:46:14  <mcstar> so problem solved
2011-05-01T17:50:10  <amstan> mcstar: you can do that in the wiki
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2011-05-01T17:50:48  <mcstar> its ok now
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2011-05-01T20:37:21  <bhasker> afternoon
2011-05-01T20:37:31  <bhasker> evening rather
2011-05-01T20:38:00  <bhasker> anyone wanna try my bot out i can provide a mac binary
2011-05-01T20:49:53  <jaycobcoleman> try it out why?
2011-05-01T20:51:09  <bhasker> i just want to see how good is it
2011-05-01T20:51:30  <jaycobcoleman> oh. Wish I had something good to test it against :/
2011-05-01T20:51:51  <bhasker> well this is a rather basic bot, nothing too fancy but it can beat my basic bfs searcher bot
2011-05-01T20:52:06  <jaycobcoleman> What language is it in?
2011-05-01T20:52:09  <bhasker> i am going to try some new approaches next so going to rewrite from scratch
2011-05-01T20:52:11  <bhasker> c++
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2011-05-01T20:53:31  <jaycobcoleman> I been too busy for much programming :( graduation and AP tests...
2011-05-01T20:54:10  <bhasker> ah
2011-05-01T20:54:54  <bhasker> replay of my latest iteration http://pastebin.com/cGMVNcqt
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2011-05-01T21:04:06  <jaycobcoleman> nice
2011-05-01T21:04:16  <jaycobcoleman> Those were all the same bot?
2011-05-01T21:08:45  <bhasker> no
2011-05-01T21:08:50  <bhasker> only the red one was the new one
2011-05-01T21:08:56  <bhasker> the other 3 are just a basic bfs searcher
2011-05-01T21:09:16  <jaycobcoleman> okay
2011-05-01T21:10:18  <jaycobcoleman> were the others just searching for closest food or ant?
2011-05-01T21:11:00  <bhasker> pretty much yes
2011-05-01T21:11:15  <bhasker> and do a simple bfs
2011-05-01T21:12:56  <bhasker> all 4 same bot http://pastebin.com/r0CDBEsy
2011-05-01T21:13:01  <jaycobcoleman> mkay. I gotta get on really making a bot. When that time does come though I'll likely want to test against yours and see how it does
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2011-05-01T21:14:20  <bhasker> sure, i wish tcp server would be done soon
2011-05-01T21:14:20  <bhasker> that makes it a lot more fun
2011-05-01T21:16:34  <jaycobcoleman> I should think so
2011-05-01T21:17:06  <jaycobcoleman> anyways. I gotta go. See ya
2011-05-01T21:17:20  <bhasker> cya
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2011-05-01T21:21:40  <bhasker> 10 way mayhem
2011-05-01T21:21:40  <bhasker> http://pastebin.com/5wJduDBA
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2011-05-01T23:17:15  <McLeopold> amstan: ping
2011-05-01T23:17:18  <McLeopold> janzert: ping
2011-05-01T23:17:21  <amstan> McLeopold: yay
2011-05-01T23:17:55  <McLeopold> amstan: sigh sent a message saying we ought to get rid of the 'r' lines, any thoughts?
2011-05-01T23:18:14  <amstan> McLeopold: i have no idea, idk why you first got it there
2011-05-01T23:18:24  <amstan> also.. we should concentrate on getting the contest pipeline up first
2011-05-01T23:18:31  <amstan> then more about the engine
2011-05-01T23:20:05  <McLeopold> ok
2011-05-01T23:20:21  <McLeopold> I'm here, but I'm going to ignore stuff so I can concentrate on coding.
2011-05-01T23:22:52  <amstan> well.. i worked on this today: http://hypertriangle.com:222/
2011-05-01T23:23:03  <amstan> you might want to look closely on the system line
2011-05-01T23:23:13  <amstan> it's ubuntu running on a viewsonic gtablet
2011-05-01T23:23:21  <amstan> dual core arm
2011-05-01T23:23:27  <amstan> with apache and php installed
2011-05-01T23:23:32  <amstan> for no reason at all
2011-05-01T23:23:33  <amstan> lol
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