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2011-06-04T00:24:52  <antimatroid> xQuasar: I don't know what the problem is, but it's well know I think, and shouldn't be a problem on the main servers when the contest actually launches
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2011-06-04T02:08:14  <Bhaskerh> Antimatroid yes I do battle resolution befor making a move to avoid stupid moves
2011-06-04T02:09:17  <antimatroid> how does that help?
2011-06-04T02:09:19  <antimatroid> :P
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2011-06-04T02:09:43  <antimatroid> or you do a battle resolution after moving each ant and compare?
2011-06-04T02:10:57  <antimatroid> a very hueristiccy thing to try would be to move them as close to you as possible, the just move each ant of yours to get the best outcome iteratively
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2011-06-04T02:14:16  <smiley1983> antimatroid: I think that can sometimes produce problems if the enemy stays still, so ideally you then want to iteratively cancel orders which prove disastrous in that case
2011-06-04T02:14:31  <smiley1983> which means more processing for each battle
2011-06-04T02:14:38  <antimatroid> ideally you'd partition everything up and use game trees
2011-06-04T02:14:43  <antimatroid> but there's too many possible states :P
2011-06-04T02:15:14  <antimatroid> i want to do another game like tron sometime, where gametrees worked really really well
2011-06-04T02:15:14  <smiley1983> yes, too many for an exhaustive search. :)
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2011-06-04T02:16:25  <antimatroid> smiley1983: have you looked at fighting much yet?
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2011-06-04T02:17:17  <antimatroid> i've been waiting for people to catch up in the thought process for strategies, i was thinking through these things when trying to make sure the game would be interesting :(
2011-06-04T02:18:48  <McLeopold> antimatroid: do you have time to work on mapgen stuff?
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2011-06-04T02:19:55  <antimatroid> McLeopold: not really
2011-06-04T02:19:59  <antimatroid> i have an exam monday
2011-06-04T02:20:06  <McLeopold> after that?
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2011-06-04T02:20:20  <antimatroid> what do you have in mind?
2011-06-04T02:20:35  <antimatroid> if you want more symmetries/significant changes, you'll need to wait a few weeks
2011-06-04T02:20:44  <McLeopold> https://github.com/aichallenge/aichallenge/issues/149
2011-06-04T02:20:54  <McLeopold> https://github.com/aichallenge/aichallenge/issues/150
2011-06-04T02:20:57  <McLeopold> those issues
2011-06-04T02:21:15  <McLeopold> and this https://github.com/aichallenge/aichallenge/issues/148
2011-06-04T02:21:34  <Bhaskerh> My battle resolution just makes moves that are an equal loss move or better. It is a pessimistic model where I assume that all enemy ants at 2x the attack radius will attack this ant if it moves to a particular square
2011-06-04T02:21:36  <antimatroid> is the java one yours?
2011-06-04T02:21:42  <McLeopold> plus, Frontier pointed out that the current maps allow for blocking.  we need a 3x3 random walker
2011-06-04T02:21:44  <McLeopold> no
2011-06-04T02:22:20  <Bhaskerh> And I only consider friendly ants in 1x attack radius
2011-06-04T02:22:40  <antimatroid> i can probably start to clean all the map stuff up from the 15th
2011-06-04T02:22:52  <antimatroid> i have another exam on the 23rd, but i have more time to get ready for that
2011-06-04T02:22:57  <McLeopold> ok
2011-06-04T02:23:09  <McLeopold> I'm hoping to get my maze maps going by then
2011-06-04T02:23:32  <antimatroid> what would be nice is for the engine to have the parameter added reading from maps what type of food spawning should be used
2011-06-04T02:24:00  <McLeopold> we want to have symmetric only, but the game needs to be updated for different types of symmetric
2011-06-04T02:24:17  <McLeopold> each starting ant needs to be given an orientation
2011-06-04T02:24:20  <antimatroid> yes, so the maps will have a parameter "Symmetry typeOfSymmetry"
2011-06-04T02:24:25  <McLeopold> right now, they are all assumed to be the same
2011-06-04T02:24:38  <antimatroid> and the engine can use that information to pick the type of spawning to use
2011-06-04T02:24:55  <McLeopold> I think we will only go with symmetric food
2011-06-04T02:25:11  <antimatroid> yes, but even then it will change depending on the type of symmetry
2011-06-04T02:25:23  <antimatroid> you need a way for the engine to know what type of map it is
2011-06-04T02:25:29  <McLeopold> yes
2011-06-04T02:25:49  <antimatroid> like amstan said, my maps aren't general symmetric maps, they're a type of symmetric map
2011-06-04T02:25:50  <McLeopold> but the overall technique will stay the same, create sets of squares
2011-06-04T02:26:01  <McLeopold> so, we won't use sections
2011-06-04T02:26:05  <antimatroid> sure
2011-06-04T02:26:13  <antimatroid> that is sections?
2011-06-04T02:26:17  <amstan> what techique?
2011-06-04T02:26:33  <antimatroid> amstan: there's a reasonably intricate method for doing symmetric spawning
2011-06-04T02:26:34  <amstan> will we be able to do flipping then? and rotational symmetry?
2011-06-04T02:26:43  <antimatroid> yes
2011-06-04T02:26:59  <McLeopold> this food spawning only https://github.com/aichallenge/aichallenge/blob/epsilon/ants/ants.py#L990
2011-06-04T02:27:30  <McLeopold> If each starting ant is given an orientation, it would work for any type of symmetry
2011-06-04T02:28:23  <antimatroid> the basic idea for food spawning regardless of symmetry type will be as follows: partition the squares up into sections based on who can reach which squares fastest, randomly order these equivalence classes of squares, then iteratively spawn food on the next location to spawn when needed, waititng to spawn the food there if an ant or food already resides there
2011-06-04T02:29:41  <McLeopold> amstan: I've created 2 milestones and am sorting the issues
2011-06-04T02:29:46  <antimatroid> actually, depending on the type of symmetry, i might need to partition the squares using a separate search method to make sure it's fair
2011-06-04T02:29:56  <antimatroid> anyway, i'm off to watch my cousin play hockey, bbl
2011-06-04T02:30:01  <amstan> decent
2011-06-04T02:31:44  <antimatroid> McLeopold: I really don't understand how it's just you and me who like making maps :\
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2011-06-04T02:31:48  <antimatroid> it's one of the best parts
2011-06-04T02:32:11  <McLeopold> yeah, I keep wanting to be done with the other stuff so I can do map generators :)
2011-06-04T02:33:05  <McLeopold> I think I'll just target the best bots and make maps hard for them only >:)
2011-06-04T02:33:34  <antimatroid> yeah
2011-06-04T02:33:46  <antimatroid> frontier noted the same concern we had the other day about too many small corridors
2011-06-04T02:34:07  <McLeopold> uh, I totally said that 5 minutes ago
2011-06-04T02:34:09  <antimatroid> i might try doing random walks with randomly sized nxn blocks
2011-06-04T02:34:11  <antimatroid> :P
2011-06-04T02:34:38  <McLeopold> you could change the size of the walker based on its surroundings
2011-06-04T02:35:01  <McLeopold> plus, you would switch it to fill in water if it is in a large land area
2011-06-04T02:35:01  <antimatroid> yeah, i will experiment and see how they look
2011-06-04T02:35:10  <McLeopold> *could*
2011-06-04T02:36:34  <antimatroid> i like the idea of big open battle grounds
2011-06-04T02:36:46  <antimatroid> particularly with many entrances for multiplayer battles
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2011-06-04T02:37:16  <McLeopold> so everyone starts in a room and decides when to enter the arena?
2011-06-04T02:37:38  <antimatroid> yeah, although i'd like maps to have lots of components to them
2011-06-04T02:37:43  <antimatroid> anyway, i'm late for this game, bbl
2011-06-04T02:37:47  <McLeopold> cya
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2011-06-04T02:38:39  <McLeopold> amstan: what's the little blue dot next to an issue mean?
2011-06-04T02:38:49  <amstan> unread
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2011-06-04T02:40:49  <McLeopold> amstan: is there a make file for the tools download?
2011-06-04T02:41:08  <amstan> yeah, feel free to edit it
2011-06-04T02:41:29  <McLeopold> where?
2011-06-04T02:42:30  <McLeopold> nvm, found it
2011-06-04T02:43:36  <McLeopold> Frontier: how should we cleanup the visualizer dir for the tools download so people don't get a lot of extra stuff they don't need?
2011-06-04T02:43:52  <amstan> ant deepclean seems to do it
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2011-06-04T02:44:22  <McLeopold> but that won't get rid of uneeded source after a compile, will it?
2011-06-04T02:45:01  <amstan> you're going to need the source
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2011-06-04T02:45:36  <Frontier> there is visualizer.jar and there is html_visualizer.zip which get copied over to the website for downloading
2011-06-04T02:46:09  <McLeopold> I'm not sure if we need to distribute what is in 3rd party
2011-06-04T02:46:29  <Frontier> you don't that's why I point at the zip file
2011-06-04T02:47:11  <Frontier> The files in there are the minified JS, the copy&paste html and the html template for the visualize_locally.py
2011-06-04T02:47:16  <McLeopold> we want to include the html one inside the tools download
2011-06-04T02:48:48  <McLeopold> Frontier: how does the jar file work?
2011-06-04T02:49:19  <Frontier> java -jar visualizer.jar [http://]xxx.replay
2011-06-04T02:49:37  <McLeopold> how about reading from stdin?
2011-06-04T02:49:49  <Frontier> or java -jar visualizer.jar xxx.map
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2011-06-04T02:50:13  <Frontier> I know stdin would be best, but I should really support the streaming format for that
2011-06-04T02:50:41  <McLeopold> visualize_locally works for stdin and passing a filename
2011-06-04T02:50:55  <Frontier> I hoped someone else would jump in and write a visualizer for the streaming format :p
2011-06-04T02:50:59  <McLeopold> no stream though, which is fine
2011-06-04T02:51:08  <McLeopold> there is still mine :)
2011-06-04T02:51:33  <Frontier> The point is... with the storage format you don't win anything by 'piping'. It is not quicker to get something on screen
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2011-06-04T02:52:05  <McLeopold> well, you don't need to create a temp file?
2011-06-04T02:52:25  <McLeopold> at least with the java one, you still need replay.html for the html one
2011-06-04T02:52:34  <McLeopold> if java supported stdin
2011-06-04T02:53:00  <McLeopold> so, the jar will read a local file, or a url?
2011-06-04T02:53:41  <Frontier> Could you document the streaming format in the wiki (ths unfinished section)? I will try to implement that so we get early feedback when we test our bots.
2011-06-04T02:54:29  <Frontier> yes, since I have to do that for the applet (download http files) I really had to add file support
2011-06-04T02:54:33  <UncleVasya> smiley1983: Hi. As I'm going on I think more and more about what I want to do with my bot instead of how to implement ot's in OCaml.
2011-06-04T02:54:36  <McLeopold> The streaming format would be the same as regular bot input, just without any fog.  I know the wiki is out of date.
2011-06-04T02:55:35  <McLeopold> Frontier: is that enough to get you going?
2011-06-04T02:56:13  <Frontier> I think so. I can always take a look at your old viewer sources.
2011-06-04T02:57:06  <Frontier> The fun part will be to communicate the stdin stuff to the JavaScript at some point. I'll need a separate thread, not just the JS execution thread :)
2011-06-04T02:57:28  <McLeopold> hmm, could we get this to work with the html viewer?
2011-06-04T02:57:35  <McLeopold> web sockets?
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2011-06-04T02:58:27  <Frontier> never heard of that, but the way of least surprise for people is to pipe the engine output into some java app anyway :p
2011-06-04T02:58:58  <Frontier> I whish Java supported Chrome's V8 engine :/ that would be fast
2011-06-04T02:59:08  <McLeopold> yeah, but I could get playgame.py to spin up a webserver and serve turn info to the visualizer :D
2011-06-04T03:00:48  <Frontier> That sounds like a good idea frankly, its just that I would have to read about it, check how feasible it is and implement it. The stdin stuff is straight forward
2011-06-04T03:00:54  <xQuasar> when I run play_one_game.bat in the tools, i get "ImportError: No module named Queue"
2011-06-04T03:01:20  <McLeopold> xQuasar: you have the wrong version of python, probably 3?
2011-06-04T03:01:26  <xQuasar> yeah
2011-06-04T03:01:31  <xQuasar> which version should i have?
2011-06-04T03:01:36  <McLeopold> try 2.7.x
2011-06-04T03:01:40  <McLeopold> on windows?
2011-06-04T03:01:41  <xQuasar> ok
2011-06-04T03:01:43  <xQuasar> yeah, 7
2011-06-04T03:02:06  <McLeopold> you can install multiple version, but only one can be associated with .py at a time
2011-06-04T03:02:37  <McLeopold> 2.7.x is really close in feature set to 3
2011-06-04T03:03:11  <McLeopold> your bot may be in 3, but then you'd have a bit of trouble getting playgame running 2.7 and the bot running 3 at the same time
2011-06-04T03:04:25  <xQuasar> how do i change what bots i want to use
2011-06-04T03:04:28  <xQuasar> in tools
2011-06-04T03:04:44  <McLeopold> with playgame.py?
2011-06-04T03:05:28  <McLeopold> play_one_game.cmd is a sample command line for playgame.py
2011-06-04T03:05:42  <McLeopold> you can modifiy it however you want
2011-06-04T03:05:52  <McLeopold> I'm also about to push out some new features with playgame
2011-06-04T03:06:53  <CIA-48> aichallenge: McLeopold epsilon * r08ce45c / (3 files in 2 dirs): updates to playgame - http://bit.ly/lArRZC
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2011-06-04T03:12:34  <UncleVasya> My bot had score 35.99 and then was involved in fight with frail opponets from the end of rank table. My bot won the game but it's score became 35.81. My bot had nothing to do to avoid score decreasing?
2011-06-04T03:12:57  <McLeopold> just now?
2011-06-04T03:13:45  <xQuasar> McLeopold to run a java bot I would have to first compile it into a jar right?
2011-06-04T03:13:53  <xQuasar> ie. "java dist/sample_bots/java/HunterBot.java" <- that in the bat file won't work, right?
2011-06-04T03:14:03  <McLeopold> no, you can just compile it to class files
2011-06-04T03:14:06  <McLeopold> either way
2011-06-04T03:14:22  <McLeopold> as long as you can run it with java, it will work
2011-06-04T03:16:03  <xQuasar> ok
2011-06-04T03:16:04  <UncleVasya> McLeopold: near 10 minutes ago.
2011-06-04T03:16:32  <xQuasar> McLeopold how much longer dyou thinkit will be before the AI challenge is officially launched?
2011-06-04T03:16:33  <UncleVasya> second game from the top: http://aichallengebeta.hypertriangle.com/profile.php?user=26
2011-06-04T03:18:23  <McLeopold> UncleVasya: technically, your mu went up from 41.0538 to 41.0987, your sigma also when up which is used to calc the conservative skill: mu - sigma*3
2011-06-04T03:19:20  <McLeopold> sigma should really only go down, so I'll look at that
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2011-06-04T04:22:20  <xQuasar> How am I supposed to debug my bot?
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2011-06-04T04:22:59  <xQuasar> Wait, I can use log files. So there's no way to print out of console, I guess?
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2011-06-04T05:08:04  <antimatroid> xQuasar: debug to file
2011-06-04T05:08:10  <antimatroid> it's much easier to find stuff that way anyway
2011-06-04T05:09:21  <xQuasar> My java bot is crashing on turn 0! And I don't know what's wrong with it. Is there *any* way to make it run from console???
2011-06-04T05:09:54  <xQuasar> I've tried printing to err file but that doesn't work either when I run it with the ants play_one_game.bat
2011-06-04T05:10:07  <xQuasar> (The printing to err log file works when I run it manually though)
2011-06-04T05:12:18  <antimatroid> you could make example input and pass it through the program when you just run it yourself
2011-06-04T05:12:21  <xQuasar> NEVERMIND. It was a typo. disregard that I'm a noob
2011-06-04T05:12:22  <antimatroid> and see if that works correctly
2011-06-04T05:12:25  <antimatroid> that will then output :P
2011-06-04T05:12:31  <xQuasar> thanks anyways antimatroid
2011-06-04T05:12:32  <xQuasar> :P
2011-06-04T05:12:42  <antimatroid> s'all good, I am the king of silly mistakes :P
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2011-06-04T05:19:57  <mcstar> Threading made easy with SBCL™
2011-06-04T05:20:39  <mcstar> i put my old visualizer to another thread by calling 1 function
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2011-06-04T05:51:10  <berak> http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/http://aichallengebeta.hypertriangle.com
2011-06-04T05:57:24  <mcstar> down
2011-06-04T05:57:40  <mcstar> dont be surprised they do that sometimes
2011-06-04T05:58:41  <mcstar> i for one dont feel any excruciating pain in my chest beacuse of the lack of breathing
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2011-06-04T06:11:07  <berak> k, up again
2011-06-04T06:16:08  <smiley1983> UncleVasya: just saw your message from before, I'
2011-06-04T06:16:14  <smiley1983> m glad it's getting easier
2011-06-04T06:16:20  <smiley1983> I think it'
2011-06-04T06:16:27  <smiley1983> s quite a user friendly language
2011-06-04T06:16:45  <smiley1983> I keep hitting enter when I try to type an apostrophe
2011-06-04T06:20:27  <berak> made a simple cs_testbot. seems to work.
2011-06-04T06:20:35  <UncleVasya> smiley1983: still going with first version of starter package. It seems that  there is no critical fixes in existing updates so I can wait.
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2011-06-04T06:48:33  <xQuasar> What's the "seed" parameter??
2011-06-04T06:48:55  <xQuasar> When the game starts.
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2011-06-04T07:02:03  <mcstar> seeds the random number generator of the python engine
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2011-06-04T07:16:14  <berak> it's per turn,  all players get the same ?
2011-06-04T07:39:55  <mcstar> berak: are you asking me?
2011-06-04T07:40:46  <berak> ah, not really, found out btw, they all get the same seed
2011-06-04T07:42:02  <mcstar> the bots dont get a seed
2011-06-04T07:42:08  <mcstar> its the engine that has a seed
2011-06-04T07:42:35  <mcstar> the bots deal with random numbers the way they feel like
2011-06-04T07:43:37  <berak> i guess xQuasar asked, because it is one of the params sent in turn 0
2011-06-04T07:43:37  <janzert> mcstar: the bots shouldn't get a seed, I see that currently they are sent it. Creating a bug report now to get that corrected.
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2011-06-04T07:44:39  <mcstar> i forgot about that
2011-06-04T07:44:52  <mcstar> i thought xQuasar was aking about the playgame parameter
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2011-06-04T07:45:29  <mcstar> janzert: but yeah youre right, theres no point in sending that seed value
2011-06-04T07:46:03  <janzert> there are real problems with sending it :)
2011-06-04T07:46:23  <janzert> i.e. it allows a player to cheat by accurately predicting where food will spawn
2011-06-04T07:46:32  <mcstar> yeah
2011-06-04T07:46:34  <mcstar> thats bad
2011-06-04T07:46:59  <mcstar> well no
2011-06-04T07:47:03  <mcstar> it couldnt
2011-06-04T07:47:14  <mcstar> but theres syill no point in it
2011-06-04T07:48:22  <mcstar> one bot cannot see the whole map thereby all the other ants and ultimately the foos spawning depnds on all the positions of all the ants, so one ant cant predict food spawning in full precision
2011-06-04T07:48:26  <mcstar> or in the long runm
2011-06-04T07:48:54  <mcstar> sry one player
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2011-06-04T07:50:30  <janzert> it can't predict with perfect accuracy from turn one, but it will still give it a great step up in making accurate predictions (i.e. any chance at all ;) )
2011-06-04T07:52:10  <mcstar> have you thought of this before?
2011-06-04T07:52:17  <janzert> yes :)
2011-06-04T07:52:32  <mcstar> why didnt you say something? its a nasty thing
2011-06-04T07:52:53  <janzert> I did a few months ago
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2011-06-04T07:53:21  <janzert> I didn't realize the engine was actually sending the seed to players at all, until a few minutes ago :(
2011-06-04T07:53:37  <mcstar> mcstar: scratches his head cause he needs to find a new exploit(kidding)
2011-06-04T07:53:39  <janzert> not sure how or why that was done
2011-06-04T07:55:19  <smiley1983> by the way, directing a browser to ai-contest.com without the /index.php brings up a page about Parallel Plesk instead of the contest page
2011-06-04T07:56:12  <janzert> even with a good hidden seed, there is still another possible exploit although I think we are probably just borderline safe from it, left as a reader exercise ;)
2011-06-04T07:56:29  <janzert> anyway gotta head for work
2011-06-04T08:02:06  * xQuasar bows for helping discover a bug :D
2011-06-04T08:18:53  <antimatroid> yeah, i wouldn't have expected it to be sending players the seed
2011-06-04T08:19:01  <antimatroid> that's obviously a bug :P
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2011-06-04T10:06:40  <CIA-48> aichallenge: aerique epsilon * rb8ad6f7 / website/starter_packages.php : Add basic starter packages table (issue 144). - http://bit.ly/iMhadC
2011-06-04T10:11:54  <CIA-48> aichallenge: aerique epsilon * rc05002a / website/starter_packages.php : Add link to alternative CL starter package. - http://bit.ly/iyyTXZ
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2011-06-04T10:28:55  <mcstar> antimatroid: have you seen this? http://www.idokep.hu/hirek/viztolcser-ausztraliaban-2011
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2011-06-04T11:48:18  <antimatroid> mcstar: i had not, pretty neat
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2011-06-04T12:00:05  <antimatroid> http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/hrgew/reddit_whats_the_most_useless_piece_of_knowledge/c1xqjl0
2011-06-04T12:00:10  <antimatroid> ehehe, burn
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2011-06-04T17:11:37  <aerique> what's wrong with the current website/favicon.ico?  (issue 153)
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2011-06-04T19:23:04  <xQuasar> Is the top left corner of the map (0, 0) or (1, 1) ?
2011-06-04T19:23:14  <olexs> 0,0
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2011-06-04T21:44:52  <antimatroid> xQuasar: and you call yourself a programmer1
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2011-06-04T23:16:39  <amstan> antimatroid: lol
2011-06-04T23:16:57  <antimatroid> amstan: :P
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