2011-06-10T00:02:01 @later tell jmcarthur I have an idea for the sigma increase, base it off of percentage of field that is new since last game 2011-06-10T00:02:01 McLeopold: As you wish. 2011-06-10T00:12:17 *** computerwiz_222 has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T00:12:56 @later tell amstan I'm turning off starter bots so I can watch more interesting games 2011-06-10T00:12:56 McLeopold: Yes master! 2011-06-10T00:13:08 @later tell janzert I'm turning off starter bots so I can watch more interesting games 2011-06-10T00:13:08 McLeopold: I come to serve. 2011-06-10T00:14:55 *** computerwiz_222 has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-06-10T00:27:28 aichallenge: McLeopold epsilon * r7a7a7c9 / website/nice.php : syntax error - http://bit.ly/miF2HY 2011-06-10T00:28:28 aichallenge: McLeopold epsilon * r929cb33 / website/nice.php : syntax error - http://bit.ly/kd8loO 2011-06-10T00:37:28 *** Pyronaut has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2011-06-10T00:37:38 *** UncleVasya has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T00:38:42 User profile pages seems to be broken. 2011-06-10T00:47:15 *** deltOr has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T00:47:52 *** UncleVasya has quit IRC () 2011-06-10T00:47:54 *** delt0r_ has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) 2011-06-10T00:52:17 *** Mathnerd314 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-06-10T00:54:37 aichallenge: McLeopold epsilon * r7207f76 / website/game_list.php : fixed opponent lists - http://bit.ly/kHNHlZ 2011-06-10T00:55:15 McLeopold: did you get a fix for the jskills crash? 2011-06-10T00:55:29 or investigate it at all 2011-06-10T01:07:06 aichallenge: McLeopold epsilon * r43a2471 / worker/compiler.py : Set memory limit on javac - http://bit.ly/iDh1EZ 2011-06-10T01:07:13 no 2011-06-10T01:08:31 *** smiley1983 has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T01:08:47 aichallenge: McLeopold epsilon * r5f8a91b / manager/manager.py : set memory limit on jskills - http://bit.ly/lrJOJq 2011-06-10T01:09:38 I'm working in a mapgen with rotational symmetry. Before I do much more, I'm hoping that someone can verify that my symmetry is valid: http://pastebin.com/JiibpswN 2011-06-10T01:10:21 The first block (6x6) consists of four 3x3 blocks, rotated and tiled, representing a 4-player map 2011-06-10T01:11:01 The second block (12x6) consists of two of the previous blocks side-by-side, representing an 8-player map 2011-06-10T01:13:35 aichallenge: janzert epsilon * rdad1fbd / worker/compiler.py : Fix compiler error message - http://bit.ly/mpFiIN 2011-06-10T01:21:44 *** davidjliu has quit IRC (Quit: Page closed) 2011-06-10T01:34:13 *** McLeopold has left #aichallenge 2011-06-10T01:39:46 *** stocha has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T01:44:36 *** stocha has quit IRC (Client Quit) 2011-06-10T01:45:54 *** Ice_Harley has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T01:51:35 *** dr- has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) 2011-06-10T01:52:25 *** Racko has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T01:53:09 *** dr- has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T02:07:41 *** amstan has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-06-10T02:19:42 *** okayzed is now known as okay 2011-06-10T02:19:56 *** locutus2 has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T02:36:05 *** locutus2 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-06-10T02:37:41 *** locutus2 has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T02:44:50 *** dr- has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2011-06-10T02:49:34 *** dr- has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T02:59:16 *** stocha has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T02:59:31 Anyone home ? 2011-06-10T03:00:21 *** locutus2 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2011-06-10T03:00:39 1) I assume that bayeselo (based off the probability of winning for a pair of player) is very good ranking system. 2011-06-10T03:01:12 2) It can be applyed to multi-team games. 2011-06-10T03:03:12 The multi part is resolved as follow, if 5 players play a game, and get a rank out of it (for example winner, second, third , third, four) then you can simply assume that the winner score a win against all other, and for example third score a loss against winner and second and a win against four. So you are back to meaningfull result four couple of players. 2011-06-10T03:04:16 for teams vs teams, you can use the thing remy coulom used for team of features obvioulsy. So bayeselo seems to be a good universal ranking system. Arguably it needs some computer ressources. But the games here are played very slowly anyway, 2011-06-10T03:04:23 *** stocha has quit IRC (Quit: Page closed) 2011-06-10T03:09:12 *** okay is now known as okayzed 2011-06-10T03:17:50 *** locutus2 has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T03:21:43 *** ltriant has quit IRC (Quit: Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/) 2011-06-10T03:22:59 *** UncleVasya has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T03:24:00 *** aerique has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T03:31:17 *** antimatroid has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T03:43:27 antimatroid: I think you know some things about symmetry, so I wonder if you would take a look at my question here: https://github.com/aichallenge/aichallenge/issues/149 2011-06-10T03:43:38 if/when you have time 2011-06-10T03:43:40 lol, I had 2 ants and he had 158: http://aichallengebeta.hypertriangle.com/visualizer.php?game=18888 2011-06-10T03:46:38 lol have see it sometime that my bot if it leading my ant builds clusters 2011-06-10T03:46:48 smiley1983: i think they want all stuff like that in python to be used 2011-06-10T03:46:52 otherwise my map gens would be c++ 2011-06-10T03:46:53 http://pastebin.com/d1GWqm9G 2011-06-10T03:47:04 the second one there is what I would have expected an 8 player map to be like? 2011-06-10T03:47:09 or have you just translated them? 2011-06-10T03:47:15 must something do to spread out more 2011-06-10T03:47:51 so that their can found more food! 2011-06-10T03:48:13 antimatroid: the second one is just two copies of the first one side by side 2011-06-10T03:48:41 i don't know about your second one :P 2011-06-10T03:48:48 Okay :) 2011-06-10T03:49:01 i don't think it's even symmetric? 2011-06-10T03:50:04 I thought it should have rotational symmetry from the perspective of each player when the edge wrapping is taken into account 2011-06-10T03:50:25 That is, if the first one is symmetrical with the edges wrapped, then it can be tiled 2011-06-10T03:50:53 it might be 2011-06-10T03:50:56 but there might be something wrong with that logic, which is why I want to ask someone who actually knows about symmetry :) 2011-06-10T03:51:26 i'm playing around with symmetric games with my honours thesis, it's not very trivial to define symmetric games generally 2011-06-10T03:51:48 Yes, I saw a bit of the earlier discussion about symmetry 2011-06-10T03:51:55 atm my general working is that the game should be invariant for some ordering of the players strategies for any permutation of the players 2011-06-10T03:52:39 i am thinking it is symmetric again 2011-06-10T03:52:39 Clearly these maps do not meet that requirement because the neighbors are important and non-symmetrical 2011-06-10T03:53:18 ... i'm not sure 2011-06-10T03:53:40 I guess I could re-implement this stuff in Python, but I won't, so there's no actual need to answer the question now 2011-06-10T03:53:56 we want as many types of symmetric maps as possible though anyway 2011-06-10T03:56:05 The code for the rotation and tiling is quite short, so I'll pastebin it and put the link into my question in case anyone wants to do the Python version and wants a template to work from. 2011-06-10T03:58:51 antimatroid: you are right about one of your earlier comments that map generation is interesting 2011-06-10T03:59:00 :P 2011-06-10T03:59:11 finally, mcleopold and i don't understand the lack of interest 2011-06-10T03:59:57 locutus2: I've made a simple solution to avoid ants thronging: when all main instructions already given to the ants my bot makes ants that left free to "fear" each other. Every of them steps to the cell which is far away from other ants. 2011-06-10T04:00:04 i'm still chuffed with the method for doing tilings on a discrete torus 2011-06-10T04:00:31 well, there was a functioning game when I found out about the contest development, so I looked at that first... 2011-06-10T04:00:41 ... what about planet wars? 2011-06-10T04:00:47 I had a look at the code for that, I think I understand it now 2011-06-10T04:01:32 I found out about planet wars about two weeks into the contest, and hadn't nearly enough time to implement my ideas, so map generation didn't even enter my mind 2011-06-10T04:01:47 2 weeks in? :P 2011-06-10T04:01:56 that still gave you over 2 months, but fair enough 2011-06-10T04:01:58 maybe 10 or 11 days... 2011-06-10T04:03:02 I spent the first few weeks working out how the game worked, so by the time I had a clear picture of what I wanted to build, I only had half of that left, and I wasn't adventurous enough to try for the larger scale plans :) 2011-06-10T04:04:10 locutus2: it's a temporary solution and later I'll have aims for all of my ants 2011-06-10T04:05:26 smiley1983: did you use game trees? 2011-06-10T04:05:50 no, but those were among the larger scale plans 2011-06-10T04:05:58 i want to do another game where game tree's work well again 2011-06-10T04:06:08 I have no experience implementing game trees, but would like to learn 2011-06-10T04:06:16 tron tron tron!!! :) 2011-06-10T04:06:23 me to 2011-06-10T04:06:23 I think this is not the contest for it, which is why I want to see tron back up :) 2011-06-10T04:06:53 no, i've pretty much given up on game trees 2011-06-10T04:07:09 although janzert/etc, laugh at the fact that i actually implement the trees :P 2011-06-10T04:07:33 I really tried hard to work out ways to make game trees work in this, and had even worked out a way in which something gametree-like could be processed in the available time... but then decided the benefit of that system would be minimal 2011-06-10T04:07:50 what do you mean, implement each level of the tree in code? 2011-06-10T04:08:00 or something else? 2011-06-10T04:08:07 if i was game treeing this, i would partition ants into sets that can affect each other, then just do the normal game tree thing for one depth 2011-06-10T04:08:19 i actually implement a game tree 2011-06-10T04:08:27 i think they just search the tree without storing it all 2011-06-10T04:08:31 *** mcstar has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T04:08:37 ah, I see 2011-06-10T04:08:58 storing it was a necessity for our tron bot 2011-06-10T04:09:01 #7 2011-06-10T04:09:06 good morning 2011-06-10T04:09:34 once we selected our move, we'd scrap the rest of the tree, then once you worked out what move they made, we scrapped another large part of hte tree then kept generating from what we already had from the past move/s 2011-06-10T04:09:53 normal game tree as in exhaustive search of combinations of orders? or something based on evaluating strategies (providing whole sets of orders)? 2011-06-10T04:10:01 what language did you use? 2011-06-10T04:10:02 *** coastwise has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T04:10:06 um, well you're not going to get the entire game tree 2011-06-10T04:10:12 mcstar: good morning 2011-06-10T04:10:28 but you can have a queue of extendable nodes, and keep extending the tree for x amount of time, then make your move based off the tree you have 2011-06-10T04:10:51 you can make some kind of priority queue for extending nodes if you want to go down that route 2011-06-10T04:11:24 okay... so does that mean you're looking at subsequent levels in the game tree without looking at every node in the first level? 2011-06-10T04:11:43 in tron, we checked all possible moves at each layer 2011-06-10T04:11:59 in planet wars, i literally went through and picked out what looked like ideal moves, then used those at each layer 2011-06-10T04:12:34 i don't think my game tree helped much with pw though 2011-06-10T04:12:46 too many bugs and not enough state search 2011-06-10T04:12:53 Right... and did bad results from the tree result in cancelled orders? 2011-06-10T04:13:03 cancelled? 2011-06-10T04:13:08 or was it evaluating different strategies? 2011-06-10T04:13:35 If you're picking ideal moves, what if the game tree says the result is bad? 2011-06-10T04:13:48 do you cancel the order, or evaluate another order-picking function? 2011-06-10T04:13:50 a "move" for me had a single destination and multiple sources sending ships at various points in time, I would make a move by considering planets I knew I could at least own for a turn 2011-06-10T04:13:58 then I also considered making "no move" at each layer 2011-06-10T04:14:15 so if nothing seemed best, it would do nothing, or stop sending moves after the number of planets it had decided to take 2011-06-10T04:14:31 i could only get like 2-3 layers deep with that though 2011-06-10T04:14:53 i also had heuristics for stuff like defense, redistribution and redirection 2011-06-10T04:15:18 Right, thanks for explaining it (sorry, I seem to remember you made a post at the time, I should really go back and read it) 2011-06-10T04:15:35 meh, i'm happy to talk about game theory almost whenever :P 2011-06-10T04:15:40 :) 2011-06-10T04:16:21 if tron does go up again, i'll make a simple game tree bot for open release 2011-06-10T04:16:39 that would be useful 2011-06-10T04:16:56 like a starter bot for game trees ehe 2011-06-10T04:17:08 making it easy for people to play around with the evaluation function 2011-06-10T04:17:54 Yes, it's much easier to replicate a structure once you've worked with an existing implementation of it 2011-06-10T04:17:54 antimatroid: Haven't you tried to program chess or checkers? 2011-06-10T04:18:08 UncleVasya: no, it's been done to death ;) 2011-06-10T04:18:18 i would be tempted to play around with go, but i've never really played it 2011-06-10T04:18:26 i much prefer simultaneous games anyway 2011-06-10T04:18:31 i find them more interesting strategy wise 2011-06-10T04:19:05 if i wanted to do something chess/checkers related, i'd be right into arimaa 2011-06-10T04:19:16 it's a fun game if you like that sort of thinking, but takes a long time to gain ability :) 2011-06-10T04:19:21 (go, that is) 2011-06-10T04:20:21 *** qacek has quit IRC (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.5) 2011-06-10T04:20:41 I'm reading about arimaa now 2011-06-10T04:21:05 janzert has one of the best arimaa bots 2011-06-10T04:21:09 what does this mean? 2011-06-10T04:21:10 (>")> 2011-06-10T04:21:18 it's a kirby 2011-06-10T04:21:24 and why are those bots greyed out? 2011-06-10T04:21:54 ghost - high water marks of former uploads 2011-06-10T04:22:34 theres too many of them now 2011-06-10T04:22:56 so you can see that the rank-1500+ who just beat you has re-uploaded and was previously rank 4 2011-06-10T04:23:39 I think they're still working out when and how they should be cleared 2011-06-10T04:23:58 maybe there should be an rss feed orsomething that keeps us posted and we could archive them 2011-06-10T04:24:37 *** Naktibalda has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T04:24:44 *** UncleVasya has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-06-10T04:24:48 *** stocha has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T04:26:53 *** locutus2 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2011-06-10T04:27:41 antimatroid: how come you didnt upload your starter bot? 2011-06-10T04:27:58 because it's really stupid? 2011-06-10T04:28:08 to the beta server? 2011-06-10T04:28:41 yes 2011-06-10T04:28:45 where else? 2011-06-10T04:28:57 why put the starter bots on there? 2011-06-10T04:29:27 there was talk to upload the starter bots to see which language is the best :D 2011-06-10T04:29:28 to make the rankings mean less :) 2011-06-10T04:29:30 and some did 2011-06-10T04:29:50 ah, alright, hang on 2011-06-10T04:29:56 @topic 2011-06-10T04:29:56 antimatroid: Official Google AI Challenge: http://ai-contest.com/ || Channel Logs: http://contestbot.hypertriangle.com/ || Code Repo: http://github.com/aichallenge/aichallenge || Beta testers needed: http://aichallengebeta.hypertriangle.com/ (amstan) 2011-06-10T04:30:02 the starter bots are just there for testing 2011-06-10T04:30:14 the starter strategies are meant to be the same aren't they? 2011-06-10T04:30:19 my starter bot strategy is really stupid 2011-06-10T04:30:35 most use the go n, e, s or w unless there's water in the way 2011-06-10T04:30:40 i like having everyone start from really crap strategies, so people can see how they do relative to each other participant 2011-06-10T04:30:48 McLeo wanted them to be stupid 2011-06-10T04:31:08 aerique: yeah McLeopold and I both wanted that 2011-06-10T04:32:07 yes we understand its stupid, so what? 2011-06-10T04:32:21 just load it up :D 2011-06-10T04:34:14 my first test case bot just picked a direction at random. That's all. 2011-06-10T04:34:28 * mcstar thinks that antimatroid stopped beleiving that the pure power of c++ should be enough 2011-06-10T04:34:45 mcstar: ??/ 2011-06-10T04:35:00 http://aichallengebeta.hypertriangle.com/profile.php?user=132 2011-06-10T04:35:01 i think he refers to your giving up trees ? 2011-06-10T04:35:25 oh yeah, that's just not happening 2011-06-10T04:35:36 i will use something like a decision tree for a single ant at a time maybe 2011-06-10T04:35:44 but no way game tree's are working with the amount of ants 2011-06-10T04:35:59 if you do 3 ants with 5 moves each that's 5^3 states you need to check 2011-06-10T04:36:11 keep going for more ants 2011-06-10T04:36:36 i thought about planning usual battle configurations by hand 2011-06-10T04:36:49 i would love to see that 2011-06-10T04:36:57 i mean thinking them through and coding them by hand 2011-06-10T04:36:58 lol 2011-06-10T04:37:11 we considered multiplayer game of life, even worked out the rules, but decided it'd be too complicated/messy 2011-06-10T04:37:20 only considering a couple of ants each time 2011-06-10T04:38:09 i've no idea what to do about actual fights 2011-06-10T04:38:19 so a per-ant game tree is not unfeasible 2011-06-10T04:38:30 i suspect i'll heuristicise by moving them as close to me as possible, then checking the best move for each ant 2011-06-10T04:38:49 if you're just moving one ant, i'd be inclined to call it a decision tree 2011-06-10T04:38:58 a game requires n>2 players affecting each others outcome 2011-06-10T04:39:02 >=* 2011-06-10T04:39:09 alright, professor 2011-06-10T04:40:34 *** Palmik has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T04:42:27 finally i looked up your name 2011-06-10T04:43:48 :P 2011-06-10T04:44:12 curious, if my starter bot has a wall above two ants, they don't make a move 2011-06-10T04:45:18 de-bug time then 2011-06-10T04:45:42 ah, cause tehy don't mind colliding into each other 2011-06-10T04:45:44 they're swapping places 2011-06-10T04:45:56 huh? 2011-06-10T04:46:04 the engine supposed to kill them both 2011-06-10T04:46:10 no, they swap places 2011-06-10T04:46:10 arent it? 2011-06-10T04:46:17 delete that 2011-06-10T04:46:25 no, that's how starter bots are meant to work 2011-06-10T04:46:28 im just drinking my first coffee 2011-06-10T04:46:29 so people know that's what happens 2011-06-10T04:46:51 right, swapping is allowed 2011-06-10T04:47:30 do you often use debuggers? 2011-06-10T04:47:33 gdb? 2011-06-10T04:47:37 i don't :P 2011-06-10T04:47:45 *** filter_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T04:47:59 the problem i have so far with lisp is debugging 2011-06-10T04:48:30 its kind of criptic to track down a bug, for example a type error 2011-06-10T04:48:48 very different then most of the languages 2011-06-10T04:49:29 but this is mostly my ignorance talking 2011-06-10T04:49:44 *** coastwise has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2011-06-10T04:50:41 *** filter has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-06-10T04:53:17 bah, i want to start my bot :( 2011-06-10T04:53:32 i've banned myself from doing so until after exams 2011-06-10T04:56:04 *** Eruonen has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T04:56:44 its porbably a good idea to stay away from it 2011-06-10T04:56:49 its captivating 2011-06-10T04:57:30 i know :P 2011-06-10T05:00:13 *** FireFly has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T05:01:16 hmm... is there going to be own nest at area like there was in very early beta 2011-06-10T05:01:36 like you had to take your food ant carry it into the 'spawning area' 2011-06-10T05:02:56 *** sir_macelon has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T05:03:10 hi 2011-06-10T05:04:56 hi :) 2011-06-10T05:05:11 rabidus: currently there isn't a home nest, I don't think one will be added 2011-06-10T05:05:54 rabidus: that was my game :( 2011-06-10T05:05:57 it was "too hard" 2011-06-10T05:06:14 you had to harvest food and take it back to base to spawn more ants 2011-06-10T05:06:18 and ants had hp 2011-06-10T05:06:21 it was glorius 2011-06-10T05:06:36 it would have been cool, but I can see why they simplified it 2011-06-10T05:06:38 it was like future cop lapd preccint assault 2011-06-10T05:06:56 perhaps we can do the complex version in zeta :) 2011-06-10T05:07:02 yep 2011-06-10T05:07:09 frontier has an awesome visualizer 2011-06-10T05:07:28 antimatroid: imo that wasn't too hard at all 2011-06-10T05:07:37 i think this current game is "way too easy" 2011-06-10T05:07:43 i agree to some degree 2011-06-10T05:07:52 but oh well 2011-06-10T05:08:20 and you had to actually attack an enemy 2011-06-10T05:09:12 I think they should return to only assigning points for kills, not spawn 2011-06-10T05:09:43 again, I can see their logic in rewarding the player for food collection, but it's a better game the other way 2011-06-10T05:10:37 I do think the food bonus at the end is good, though, to ensure there is no incentive to "farm" enemy ants 2011-06-10T05:11:44 we could try that 2011-06-10T05:12:08 mcleopold and i had a fairly lengthy discussion about adding in the spawn points 2011-06-10T05:12:22 basically there should be a nice progression towards the top of the leaderboard for a contestant 2011-06-10T05:12:45 and obviously food collection is one of the first things people will look at, they should see a big increase in their ranking after addressing that 2011-06-10T05:12:52 maybe switch halfway through so that people get their reward when writing the food collection, and are then given an incentive to focus on battle :) 2011-06-10T05:12:55 i still think people need to do more than just collect food to compete near the top 2011-06-10T05:13:17 area managment 2011-06-10T05:13:20 *** carlop has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T05:13:20 Oh yes, very much so 2011-06-10T05:14:21 It probably doesn't actually affect the quality of the game too much, removing spawn points, so probably not worth causing the upset 2011-06-10T05:14:40 yeah, people will yet at any changes now 2011-06-10T05:14:45 look at the 'r' lines :P 2011-06-10T05:14:57 we decided over a month ago to get rid of them :P 2011-06-10T05:15:09 i have an issue for the local visualizer: i run my bot with command "java -cp ../../bin MyBot" and the viz names it "bin" 2011-06-10T05:15:15 whom to address that? 2011-06-10T05:16:16 mcleopold/frontier/sigh i guess? 2011-06-10T05:20:06 http://aichallengebeta.hypertriangle.com/visualizer.php?game=18979: check out the red bot 2011-06-10T05:20:24 how come he's number 4 without a path finding algorithm? 2011-06-10T05:21:13 either ranking is not working well or we have some too easy maps 2011-06-10T05:21:36 who? 2011-06-10T05:21:44 davidjliu? 2011-06-10T05:21:47 or maybe too easy contestant 2011-06-10T05:22:55 All the bots are pretty simple at the moment, I think - the site tells you not to upload your newest and most secret code, after all :) 2011-06-10T05:23:37 My bot on the beta server is a fork from month-old code, tweaked a bit to make it a bit more effective. All its code is obsolete. 2011-06-10T05:25:05 *** xQuasar has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T05:25:17 antimatroid: yes 2011-06-10T05:25:22 some bots can be quite strong without path finding. 2011-06-10T05:25:47 when they have individual ants behavior that build up a nice global behaviro 2011-06-10T05:25:53 but i saw some with path finding already and they should be ahaed of such bots 2011-06-10T05:26:09 (quite strong compared to starter bots, or even simple static greedy bot) 2011-06-10T05:26:24 but without path finding all ants got stuck at some point 2011-06-10T05:26:47 for example, with the a 1 1 die ratio, my but was on par with a bot with almost no path finding 2011-06-10T05:26:51 depend, cause food spawning generally assure that you can got unstuck 2011-06-10T05:27:01 any who would implement such a fancy global behaviour without a basic path finding? 2011-06-10T05:27:25 i thinkg it still has limitation. but i was impressed :) 2011-06-10T05:28:02 carlop: that's why the food amounts have been limited 2011-06-10T05:28:20 *** antimatroid has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-06-10T05:28:23 to encourage more path finding and exploring 2011-06-10T05:28:54 mm, there red is NOT impressive at all :p 2011-06-10T05:30:07 sir_macelon> i think the way of thinking of the guy was leagues away from mine. but overall i was quite impressed. i found it beautifull. If i doubt it can build a winning bot amongst 2000 participants based on this sole ideas. 2011-06-10T05:30:24 It showed me some aspect of the games i didn't think about too much before. 2011-06-10T05:30:52 i'm excited to see other alien ideas :) 2011-06-10T05:31:17 my bot i really main stream. 2011-06-10T05:31:19 is 2011-06-10T05:33:16 sir_marcelon: I know that pathfinding is an obvious optimization that all middle to top bot should have in final competition (and maybe also davidjliu knows), but for now he have a god bot against this field 2011-06-10T05:37:34 does the 'seed' token in the initial step of a game is still used ? I can't see any mention of it on the wiki 2011-06-10T05:37:34 What happened to the test server? THere were 60 2011-06-10T05:37:45 What happened to the test server? There were 60+ bots yesterday, now there's only 45? 2011-06-10T05:40:49 *** antimatroid has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T05:42:38 *** Eruonen has quit IRC () 2011-06-10T05:44:45 he has dispersion code, which works well when there is food around, so it will beat all the starters and the ones barely above starter 2011-06-10T05:46:53 stocha: don't underestimate davidjliu 2011-06-10T05:46:58 look at the pw rankings ;) 2011-06-10T05:51:31 davidjliu bot is really weak : it loose about 50% of time against some of the worst rated bots. for example against stocha(java) and sir_macelon(java) 2011-06-10T05:53:12 why is there only 45 bot left. when they were like 60 yesterday 2011-06-10T05:53:30 no more starter bots i guess 2011-06-10T05:53:56 having a few, and some duplicated bots is good for testing though. 2011-06-10T05:55:26 *** antimatroid1 has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T05:56:14 *** antimatroid has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2011-06-10T06:01:03 *** xQuasar has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-06-10T06:05:14 *** xQuasar has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T06:08:39 im starting to think tha whole GP idea is stupif 2011-06-10T06:08:41 d 2011-06-10T06:08:58 too unpredictable and theres much much work still needed 2011-06-10T06:10:20 welcome to the party :) 2011-06-10T06:10:34 i would say the same about neural networks :P 2011-06-10T06:11:36 i havent given any thought into NN, thats too far fetched for me 2011-06-10T06:11:54 even more parameters, cant figure that one out, only with years of experience 2011-06-10T06:19:46 yeah i mean in general 2011-06-10T06:19:47 not just for this 2011-06-10T06:23:49 *** xQuasar has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-06-10T06:26:24 *** xQuasar has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T06:35:42 what is GP ? 2011-06-10T06:36:08 Grand Prix 2011-06-10T06:36:10 usually 2011-06-10T06:36:19 but in this context genetic programming 2011-06-10T06:36:36 okay 2011-06-10T06:38:11 *** antimatroid1 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-06-10T06:38:22 *** antimatroid has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T06:39:18 *** Quasar has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T06:39:44 *** Quasar is now known as Guest92479 2011-06-10T06:41:45 *** xQuasar has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2011-06-10T06:46:15 *** Guest92479 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2011-06-10T06:48:09 *** filter_ is now known as filter 2011-06-10T06:49:25 *** mceier has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T06:51:18 *** xQuasar has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T06:57:35 *** UncleVasya has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T06:58:15 lets talk about pathfinding 2011-06-10T06:58:52 i read wiki and found this Dijkstra's algorithm 2011-06-10T06:59:24 pathfinding on this map has some peculiarities 2011-06-10T06:59:34 the measure is nice 2011-06-10T06:59:56 *** smiley1983 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2011-06-10T07:00:11 in the beginning i think ill try some simple method 2011-06-10T07:00:13 i'd take a look breadth-first search 2011-06-10T07:00:23 just to get to points i can see anyways 2011-06-10T07:00:40 yeah, antimatroid always says that 2011-06-10T07:00:52 but that isnt very ai-ish 2011-06-10T07:00:52 what, bred.. ? 2011-06-10T07:00:56 aham 2011-06-10T07:00:58 oh why? 2011-06-10T07:01:13 bfs is easy 2011-06-10T07:01:27 you mark squares you've visited and add new ones to a search queue 2011-06-10T07:01:49 A* is good if you have a single target source and destination, but i don't really see when you're going to have that 2011-06-10T07:01:57 *** smiley1983 has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T07:02:23 i want something like vision 2011-06-10T07:02:32 ? 2011-06-10T07:02:44 detect if it is in line of sight 2011-06-10T07:02:46 and such 2011-06-10T07:02:51 how are people collecting food without pathfinding? 2011-06-10T07:02:56 i know bfs could be used 2011-06-10T07:03:06 well i collect it randomly 2011-06-10T07:03:11 wo pathfinding 2011-06-10T07:03:28 i mean i prefer directions that point towards food 2011-06-10T07:03:39 basically i make all my moves random 2011-06-10T07:03:57 antimatroid: I think A* can be implemented in Ants even if you're don't know a single destination. 2011-06-10T07:04:02 just dont hit water, and dpending on turn, prefer different things 2011-06-10T07:04:11 UncleVasya: how? 2011-06-10T07:04:22 you don't want to calculate distances to heaps of target squares every move 2011-06-10T07:04:36 and if you're iteratively changing target information you can't hash the values 2011-06-10T07:05:36 *** xQuasar has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2011-06-10T07:05:48 you could use it with the "objective thing" to minimise the closest friend ant, but yeah, i just don't see that being efficient 2011-06-10T07:06:17 antimatroid: Or it's not actually A*. Begin like BFS but sort nodes via some function - is this of the ways A* can be done? 2011-06-10T07:06:44 I'll try to explain now and you'll decide: A* it's or not, ok? :) 2011-06-10T07:07:11 If you have a target square, A* basically searches like bfs, but the queue is ordered based on how close the search squares are to the target 2011-06-10T07:07:15 at least that's my understanding of it 2011-06-10T07:07:40 not always *how close* 2011-06-10T07:07:45 so if you can order them based off something like min distance to a target 2011-06-10T07:07:53 or whatever other objective function you want to use 2011-06-10T07:08:15 for example i don't use bfs, but a* 2011-06-10T07:08:29 *** xQuasar has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T07:08:32 cost function is the way you determine how close node to the target. 2011-06-10T07:08:38 sir_macelon: but how? 2011-06-10T07:08:44 what's your objective function? 2011-06-10T07:09:20 for example, if i collect a piece of food, i have 2 new squares that available to be used in the future and 1 square no longer available, how do you then efficiently say find the closest available ant to a square or whatever? 2011-06-10T07:09:25 But to "be in less distance" not always means "be the closes one". 2011-06-10T07:09:55 antimatroid: what do you mean with objective function? 2011-06-10T07:10:09 well your a* search needs an objective function right? 2011-06-10T07:10:15 like minimise the distance to this location? 2011-06-10T07:10:21 yes 2011-06-10T07:10:24 or minimise the distance to any of the locations in this set 2011-06-10T07:10:25 whatever 2011-06-10T07:10:52 do you have multiple sources? and multiple targets? 2011-06-10T07:10:59 i estimate the distance first by calculating shortest possible path 2011-06-10T07:11:03 i do a bfs from all food squares simultaneously looking for any friend ant 2011-06-10T07:11:16 antimatroid: objective function can be done like "how long ago was a free ant in this squar?" 2011-06-10T07:11:22 then sort the targets 2011-06-10T07:11:34 and do a* when needed only 2011-06-10T07:11:42 not for all as you do 2011-06-10T07:11:50 saves a lot of time 2011-06-10T07:12:10 when do you use it? 2011-06-10T07:12:35 only for the closest estimated ant to target 2011-06-10T07:12:38 like, are you searching from one food item to one ant? multiple food items to one ant? one food item to one ant? or multiple food items to multiple ants? 2011-06-10T07:12:41 then i calculate the path 2011-06-10T07:12:50 hmmm, that's not optimal though? 2011-06-10T07:12:53 in fact far from it 2011-06-10T07:12:56 And if you are choosing between two or more nodes to open next you pick the squar where a free ant was not very long ago. 2011-06-10T07:12:57 depending on water blocks 2011-06-10T07:13:13 So you'll kinda "track" it. 2011-06-10T07:13:28 and if it turns to be longer than estimated, means there are some obstacles on the way, then i sort them again 2011-06-10T07:13:56 it works perfect for me 2011-06-10T07:14:03 more variation the better 2011-06-10T07:14:06 i'm sticking to bfs i think 2011-06-10T07:14:08 why you think it's not optimal? 2011-06-10T07:14:29 because you might have a closer ant in another direction? 2011-06-10T07:14:48 maybe i'm misunderstanding 2011-06-10T07:15:02 regardless, I can't think of any time I want to find paths without multiple sources and targets 2011-06-10T07:15:05 no, because i sort them by closest distance to closest target 2011-06-10T07:15:16 oh okay, sure 2011-06-10T07:15:17 antimatroid: Do i need to try explain better (with vocabulary) or you've got my idea? 2011-06-10T07:15:32 every iteration i sort them 2011-06-10T07:15:43 14:14 < antimatroid> i'm sticking to bfs i think 2011-06-10T07:15:46 bfs as boyfriends 2011-06-10T07:15:54 ;) 2011-06-10T07:15:57 :) 2011-06-10T07:16:09 i'm tempted to do something like sir_macelons 2011-06-10T07:16:29 UncleVasya: I don't really see where you're going sorry :P 2011-06-10T07:16:37 are you marking the last turn in which an ant occupied a square? 2011-06-10T07:16:43 what about if the square hasn't been occupied? 2011-06-10T07:17:08 i check only first squre on the path 2011-06-10T07:17:27 then detect collisions and recalculate paths when needed 2011-06-10T07:17:36 if no squares been occupied than it's became a simple BFS until we'll find a such square. 2011-06-10T07:17:38 isn't it kind of expensive to find the closest ant without water? 2011-06-10T07:18:02 no, because it's simple heuristic by distance 2011-06-10T07:18:11 yes, but what if you have 500+ ants? 2011-06-10T07:18:14 and then simple sort 2011-06-10T07:18:21 o(log n) 2011-06-10T07:18:33 * antimatroid isn't a very good programmer btw 2011-06-10T07:18:57 i cache paths :) 2011-06-10T07:19:20 and can handle even more than 500 ants :) 2011-06-10T07:20:45 for bfs with 500+ you'd be easily timed out 2011-06-10T07:21:01 no, because i bfs from all food squares until i find an ant 2011-06-10T07:21:06 cheap as chips 2011-06-10T07:21:13 more ants the better :P 2011-06-10T07:21:40 but what if you have 500 ants and a single food tile? 2011-06-10T07:21:51 move my closest ant towards it then move onto other stuff 2011-06-10T07:22:08 more problem is 1 ant and 500 food tiles 2011-06-10T07:22:15 anyway if you have 500 ants in the game then your battle tactic probably sucks :) 2011-06-10T07:22:15 but you can stop collecting food after a while 2011-06-10T07:23:51 sir_macelon: then how do you explain this number? 44.43 2011-06-10T07:24:34 btw, have you considered such situation: **.a. *.a ? 2011-06-10T07:24:47 me? 2011-06-10T07:24:49 **.a.*.a 2011-06-10T07:24:53 yup 2011-06-10T07:24:56 you mean with making sure you collect both now? 2011-06-10T07:24:59 *** xQuasar has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-06-10T07:25:16 mcstar: jvm crashes 2011-06-10T07:25:17 there are some heuristicy things one could do 2011-06-10T07:25:19 but mostly it'll be hard 2011-06-10T07:25:49 but did you upload the same code as the one you descived? 2011-06-10T07:25:58 described 2011-06-10T07:26:02 with wrong ordering of targets left ant could be ordered to move right 2011-06-10T07:26:11 yeah i know 2011-06-10T07:26:20 mcstar: yes 2011-06-10T07:26:35 you could do stuff like collect the food that the least number of ants can get to fastest with the ant that can reach the least number of such food squares 2011-06-10T07:26:41 but then it's still heuristiccy 2011-06-10T07:26:45 but these are rare really 2011-06-10T07:26:55 i think i'll just ignore such cases 2011-06-10T07:27:07 there's also things like b...*..a.* 2011-06-10T07:27:25 yeah, finding optimal task for collecting food i think is an hard task, and i suppose anyone should use heuristic for approssimate the optimal one 2011-06-10T07:27:59 but what if : **.a.*.a......****** 2011-06-10T07:28:13 you'd really want to use a tree for collecting optimally, but one doesn't have the time 2011-06-10T07:28:25 i think bfs + doing some random change to see if overall result can be improved + heuristic is the only way 2011-06-10T07:28:39 and you don't see all the food on the right yet 2011-06-10T07:29:05 what is * 2011-06-10T07:29:10 food 2011-06-10T07:29:21 this is the problem of balance between food collection and explore, ever more complex 2011-06-10T07:29:43 biggest balance is spreading out for food collection / visibility vs. bunching up for fighting 2011-06-10T07:29:44 *** xQuasar has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T07:29:53 the battle option was largely chosen for that reason 2011-06-10T07:30:21 anyone had every think of a probabilistic battle outcome ? 2011-06-10T07:30:34 yes, i don't want anything to do with such a rule 2011-06-10T07:30:49 antimatroid: I've made a cheme for you showing my idea. Where is a good place to upload the picture? 2011-06-10T07:30:52 there's already enough noise with rankings than to introduce probabilistic fights 2011-06-10T07:30:59 imgure.com 2011-06-10T07:31:02 imgur.com* 2011-06-10T07:31:08 like damage system + an and death with probability P(x) if he had received x damage 2011-06-10T07:31:12 UncleVasya: are you not a redditor? 2011-06-10T07:31:23 redditor? 2011-06-10T07:31:27 carlop: I want nothing to do with such things and ai :P 2011-06-10T07:31:34 UncleVasya: forget I said anything 2011-06-10T07:31:38 enjoy your productivity 2011-06-10T07:31:40 but I think that with current rule a lot of block of corridor can be made 2011-06-10T07:32:04 like: 2011-06-10T07:32:14 yes, if that becomes a problem i will remove them from maps 2011-06-10T07:32:21 i am already planning to try and make them happen less 2011-06-10T07:32:29 antimatroid: I remember that word from you. I think it's something like forum for mathematicians. 2011-06-10T07:32:53 www.reddit.com/r/programming /r/maths /r/askreddit etc. 2011-06-10T07:32:58 don't say I didn't warn you 2011-06-10T07:33:02 even though I didn't 2011-06-10T07:33:26 ok, from what i've experimented almost all 1-2, and some 3-4 width corridor can be blocked 2011-06-10T07:33:33 although tbh it's been pretty shit lately 2011-06-10T07:33:41 3-4? 2011-06-10T07:33:44 not fully blocked 2011-06-10T07:33:49 good defense can be set on them though 2011-06-10T07:34:06 depend on the condition, but can be blocked without loss 2011-06-10T07:34:15 i have no problem with people setting up defense structures 2011-06-10T07:34:17 will there be any variations of attack range? 2011-06-10T07:34:26 carlop: have you got an example? pastebin it please 2011-06-10T07:34:42 be some may base their micro strategy on a fixed attack range 2011-06-10T07:34:44 sir_macelon: hmmm, I would like it bigger again personally to make the game more interesting 2011-06-10T07:35:03 *becasue 2011-06-10T07:35:03 but hopefully parameters don't need to be changed (if they do, it'll be because the parameter is broken for some reason) 2011-06-10T07:35:07 xxxxxxxx 2011-06-10T07:35:08 antimatroid: http://i.imgur.com/GaoS5.jpg 2011-06-10T07:35:09 xxB 2011-06-10T07:35:10 a B 2011-06-10T07:35:12 a B 2011-06-10T07:35:13 a B 2011-06-10T07:35:14 because it's hard to get lots of ants into one fight atm 2011-06-10T07:35:15 a B 2011-06-10T07:35:16 xxB 2011-06-10T07:35:18 xxxxxxxx 2011-06-10T07:35:24 carlop: put it in pastebin! 2011-06-10T07:35:58 *** locutus2 has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T07:36:04 antimatroid: i would like to see games same played with different attack ranges 2011-06-10T07:36:15 sorry, going to lunch, after that i will put the link 2011-06-10T07:36:59 that middle B will die btw 2011-06-10T07:37:18 and also the one above and bloe 2011-06-10T07:37:35 erm sorry, 2 B's die, 4 a's die? 2011-06-10T07:37:35 antimatroid: BFS begins from the food to find nearest ant. When it finds a squar 4 it opens that node before others. After that the next node will be 3 and so one until it find an ant. 2011-06-10T07:37:37 is that right? 2011-06-10T07:38:00 UncleVasya: hang on 2011-06-10T07:38:36 *** Quasar has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T07:39:02 *** Quasar is now known as Guest6673 2011-06-10T07:40:28 antimatroid: i think he meant something like this: http://pastebin.com/CjKYcN5J 2011-06-10T07:40:49 defence: http://pastebin.com/aAMSAYu1 2011-06-10T07:40:57 UncleVasya: http://i.imgur.com/s7rxv.jpg 2011-06-10T07:41:01 if I haven't done errror in calculation 2011-06-10T07:41:19 *** xQuasar has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-06-10T07:43:17 sir_macelon: don't some b's die? 2011-06-10T07:43:24 carlop: in 3rd example B dies 2011-06-10T07:43:41 antimatroid: i don't think so 2011-06-10T07:43:43 (helll im using vim shortcuts in emacs) 2011-06-10T07:43:51 the sedond row and second last row? 2011-06-10T07:44:06 i think those 2 b's die 2011-06-10T07:44:47 antimatroid: indeed, you are right 2011-06-10T07:45:12 :) 2011-06-10T07:45:31 they should receive 1/2 damage from the higher ant and 1/3 damage from the center a, so I think that they survive 2011-06-10T07:45:48 each a only has 2 b's within range 2011-06-10T07:45:52 any b with 2 a's in range dies 2011-06-10T07:46:20 i still prefer the power battle option 2011-06-10T07:46:43 what example you are talking ? i think in 3rd and 4th the center attacker ant see 3/4 b 2011-06-10T07:46:50 def enemies(A) to be the set of enemy ants in battle range of ant A, A lives if |enemies(A)| < |enemies(B)| for all B \in enemies(A) 2011-06-10T07:46:56 antimatroid: yeah , it can really go wrong way: http://i.imgur.com/lQUdg.jpg 2011-06-10T07:47:29 UncelVasya: yeah, I would be pretty skeptical of that way :P 2011-06-10T07:47:57 and damn you! 2011-06-10T07:48:02 9999 is my max dist too :P 2011-06-10T07:51:14 UncleVasya: you could still do a* with that 2011-06-10T07:51:37 just order squares based off distance from your food square and then the last time it was accessed by an ant 2011-06-10T07:51:46 rather than first off the last time it was accessed by an ant 2011-06-10T07:51:49 *** UncleVasya has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-06-10T07:52:15 *** olexs has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T07:52:43 sir_macelon / antimatroid: i still can get where my example don't work, seem work for me with attack distance = 4 2011-06-10T07:52:55 carlop: we were talking about his link sorry 2011-06-10T07:53:06 np 2011-06-10T07:53:17 oh wait, they are in your examples? 2011-06-10T07:53:37 in the third and fourth example, 2 B's die 2011-06-10T07:53:55 the attackradius is 2 remember 2011-06-10T07:54:03 carlop: middle a ants deal 1/2 damage, just enough to kill b 2011-06-10T07:54:04 with the eucledian metric on the wrapped map 2011-06-10T07:54:36 middle ant in 3rd do only 1/4 of damage, cause she see 4 enemy 2011-06-10T07:54:51 it's not how many enemies you see 2011-06-10T07:54:59 it's how many enemies are within the attack radius 2011-06-10T07:55:00 which is 2 2011-06-10T07:55:40 yeah, central A have all B at distance < 2 2011-06-10T07:55:48 <= 2... 2011-06-10T07:55:56 oh. hang on 2011-06-10T07:55:59 *** olexs has quit IRC (Client Quit) 2011-06-10T07:56:07 yeah, move your a ants to the left one 2011-06-10T07:56:11 then see what happens 2011-06-10T07:56:31 carlop: yes in 3rd example b survives 2011-06-10T07:56:35 B can play a guessing game if they want to osscilate back and forth 2011-06-10T07:56:56 *** olexs has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T07:57:02 sir_macelon: same in the fourth, the a ants are all right one to your example 2011-06-10T07:57:57 in fact, i really like this example 2011-06-10T07:57:59 for me B can wait it their line, every A that stay at distance attack death (without killing everyone) 2011-06-10T07:58:02 well, now i'm confused 2011-06-10T07:58:05 B can block a if they pre empt what a will do 2011-06-10T07:58:10 and they can tossle back and forth 2011-06-10T07:58:22 it's not needed to move, B can hold position, without guessing 2011-06-10T07:58:49 still in other condition, eg 2v1, can be needed guessing and scissor rock paper 2011-06-10T07:58:51 sir_macelon: turns out your example was the same 2011-06-10T07:58:56 consider this... 2011-06-10T07:59:21 http://pastebin.com/Pzx027yy 2011-06-10T07:59:42 4 b's die in the second example no? 2011-06-10T07:59:55 argh 2011-06-10T07:59:58 i am retarded :) 2011-06-10T08:00:01 i think all A die in second example, and all B survive 2011-06-10T08:00:10 no ant 2011-06-10T08:00:13 's battle :P 2011-06-10T08:00:13 sorry 2011-06-10T08:00:36 alright, the battle radius is almost certainly going to change once i talk to mcleopold 2011-06-10T08:00:45 yeah, in first example, in second A can wait, but B have done is work blocking the corridor 2011-06-10T08:01:08 same map should be played with different attack radiuses 2011-06-10T08:01:14 but this kind of issue can be found with almost all attack radius 2011-06-10T08:01:22 try attack2 = 5 2011-06-10T08:01:28 that gives "knight" moves too 2011-06-10T08:01:38 *** mceier has quit IRC (Quit: leaving) 2011-06-10T08:02:42 @later tell McLeopold we have a problem http://pastebin.com/CjKYcN5J 2011-06-10T08:02:42 antimatroid: I think that worked... 2011-06-10T08:04:21 i challenge any of you to now find me a blockable example where the attack radius is 5 2011-06-10T08:04:28 because that will be the new one if it's not blockable 2011-06-10T08:04:50 blockable with 1-2 widths is alright, above that is not 2011-06-10T08:04:58 ok, i will think, 3 corridor can not be blockable any more 2011-06-10T08:05:10 but i should look at it, not sure 2011-06-10T08:06:28 erm, attack2 = 5, attack radius = sqrt(5) 2011-06-10T08:06:29 sorry 2011-06-10T08:08:59 *** locutus2 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-06-10T08:10:12 np, i was searching for attack2=5, sound obvious 2011-06-10T08:10:34 yep cool, i am pedantic about things, but i consider it a good trait :) 2011-06-10T08:10:45 my lecturers rip me to pieces if i'm not on assignments 2011-06-10T08:11:08 my analysis lecturer will take marks off in an exam if you try to bullshit her 2011-06-10T08:11:51 UncleVasya: did you see how that would still work alright? 2011-06-10T08:11:54 you might have already meant that? 2011-06-10T08:12:17 it wouldn't be a huge improvement on bfs, but it'd be an improvement 2011-06-10T08:12:35 i think problems arise if you ever have more than one target/whatever 2011-06-10T08:12:54 i'm sticking to bfs though 2011-06-10T08:13:10 rabidus: bfs4lfe :) 2011-06-10T08:16:10 still can be blocked 3 and 4 width corridor... http://pastebin.com/xn6RBRir 2011-06-10T08:17:32 almost the same configuration of before with one more space between A and B 2011-06-10T08:17:42 carlop: use '.' for land 2011-06-10T08:17:46 it makes it clearer :) 2011-06-10T08:19:18 dot added: http://pastebin.com/4TW9SrER 2011-06-10T08:20:26 *** smiley1983 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2011-06-10T08:21:36 there is an error in 4 corridor example, just a minute to fix it, but should be blockable 2011-06-10T08:23:37 *** Guest6673 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-06-10T08:23:59 this example should work, with attack2=5, 5 width corridor can be blocked: http://pastebin.com/QLBsxF2a 2011-06-10T08:25:01 first one is not blocked (3 corridor) 2011-06-10T08:25:11 top and bottom b ants die 2011-06-10T08:26:01 they take 1/2 + 1/4 damage, so they should survive 2011-06-10T08:26:40 take a look at this http://imgur.com/2XCw5 this is my new sandbox 2011-06-10T08:26:41 nah, doesn't the bottom a only touch that B? 2011-06-10T08:27:02 you could send your a's along the edges and take out the bottom b's? 2011-06-10T08:27:17 *** smiley1983 has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T08:27:41 thay both take 1 damage from top and bottom a ants 2011-06-10T08:27:50 mcstar: are you making your own viewer/whatever? 2011-06-10T08:27:55 i really want a jbotmanager like thing 2011-06-10T08:27:59 its done 2011-06-10T08:28:01 but i don't have any gui experience 2011-06-10T08:28:20 i just have to finish up the engine 2011-06-10T08:28:24 *** xQuasar has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T08:28:28 i add food handling today 2011-06-10T08:28:59 sir_macelon: you are right, my attack2=5 example are broken 2011-06-10T08:29:02 there are two things i want, live tcp games and the ability to play my own bot 2011-06-10T08:29:20 carlop: you had me very very worried for a minute ;) 2011-06-10T08:29:25 i hope i can develop my bot more rapidly, cause i can just include a class and thats all, i can match them instantly 2011-06-10T08:30:04 ability to play your own bot is amazingly useful for testing 2011-06-10T08:30:37 i've created an idle bot and some small maps to test your examples, it's very hard to calculate the damage :) 2011-06-10T08:30:59 there's a test function somewhere that sigh wrote 2011-06-10T08:32:01 https://github.com/aichallenge/aichallenge/wiki/Ants-Battle-Resolution-Options 2011-06-10T08:32:11 that's the old page from when we were working out which battle option to use 2011-06-10T08:38:01 *** Zaphus has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T08:38:36 *** Quasar has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T08:39:02 *** Quasar is now known as Guest18128 2011-06-10T08:42:00 *** xQuasar has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-06-10T08:43:50 sorry for all this link, but this should work: http://pastebin.com/Wa0HdEE3 (6corridor block, with attack2=5), hope this is not broken like the previous example 2011-06-10T08:46:06 *** deltOr has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) 2011-06-10T08:46:54 do you middle 2 B's die? 2011-06-10T08:46:58 the* 2011-06-10T08:47:11 *** deltOr has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T08:48:23 they should take 1/3 from both central A and 1/4 from one of the second/fifth A, so 1/3+1/3+1/4 = 2011-06-10T08:49:19 near one 2011-06-10T08:49:27 .92 2011-06-10T08:50:48 yeah, okay 2011-06-10T08:50:50 hmmmmmmmmm 2011-06-10T08:50:57 for this case i'm proposing a non deterministic death system, say that the damage system can be kept, in top of that we can think that a ant will die with probability f(damage received) 2011-06-10T08:51:27 no probabilities 2011-06-10T08:51:52 i wonder how the power method works in comparison 2011-06-10T08:51:57 do you understand the power method? 2011-06-10T08:52:50 i think that have almost the same problem 2011-06-10T08:54:19 maybe needed more ant to block 2011-06-10T08:55:02 *** Eruonen has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T08:55:33 *** Guest18128 has quit IRC () 2011-06-10T08:55:57 whats the problem with having blocking patterns ? 2011-06-10T08:56:39 Zaphus: it encourages an incredibly boring game to watch, and fairly uninteresting ai imo 2011-06-10T08:57:13 although watching defense structures be attempted to be made a ripped down will be entertaining 2011-06-10T08:57:24 I guess so, assuming it works in practice 2011-06-10T08:58:40 but in almost the current map is possible to have a perfect defence, that assure you that after clear a part of the map you could just wait till the end (and the other bot can be the same in his part) 2011-06-10T08:59:11 yeah, current maps are just examples 2011-06-10T08:59:16 the combat system is settled. 2011-06-10T08:59:28 stocha: not if it's broken 2011-06-10T08:59:36 nobody will want to make changes 2011-06-10T08:59:39 and i think it'll be alright 2011-06-10T08:59:49 but if the game was shown to be broken, we reserve the right to change stuff 2011-06-10T08:59:51 i'm afraid that it being serverly broken would make hard to push the ant game to live. 2011-06-10T08:59:54 depends on the defn of broken though 2011-06-10T09:00:17 can anyone actually make a bot yet to block the map and demonstrate ? 2011-06-10T09:00:32 maybe I 2011-06-10T09:00:37 You don't only have to block. You have to have your blocking enabling you to win. 2011-06-10T09:00:38 i also don't think blocking is as trivial as some people make out either 2011-06-10T09:00:49 i think we'll be alright 2011-06-10T09:00:53 Blocking depends on fighting distance. And fighting distance in not settled. 2011-06-10T09:00:59 no, is not trivial, but i think that can ruin the game 2011-06-10T09:00:59 i think we should change the attack radius though 2011-06-10T09:01:19 so unless you kinda build a generic blocker with fight distance as a parameter ... noone will block at this point 2011-06-10T09:01:22 carlop: any preferences other than 5? 2011-06-10T09:01:25 but for experimentation maybe :p 2011-06-10T09:01:26 and anyone else for that matter? 2011-06-10T09:01:49 what's the current distance ? 2011-06-10T09:01:56 attack2 = 4 2011-06-10T09:02:00 it was 5 a while ago 2011-06-10T09:02:04 when i experimented with 5, i was quite happy with it. 2011-06-10T09:02:19 yeah, i will talk to mcleopold and sigh 2011-06-10T09:02:21 Although i think that blocking will not cripple the contest. 2011-06-10T09:02:36 i'm going to put some serious effort into maps once i finish exams 2011-06-10T09:02:48 if does well, that's another story to be told. But you have to have complex bot to show that. 2011-06-10T09:02:56 but we should avoid strategies based solely on fixed attack range 2011-06-10T09:03:00 I'll bet you can still make blocking patterns with 5, it just requires more ants in a fatter wall 2011-06-10T09:03:17 5 is easier to block than 4 2011-06-10T09:03:37 i think. well i didn't dig into 4 much in fact. 2011-06-10T09:03:39 sir_macelon: you need fixed rules, it's too much to ask people to code for variable rules (IMHO) 2011-06-10T09:03:55 let's says that blocking with 5 is easy, espcially for very tiny coridors. 2011-06-10T09:04:18 Variable rules is okay. As long as it is fixed as a variable :p 2011-06-10T09:04:26 i've show attack=5 blocking pattern, with 6-width corridor 2011-06-10T09:04:26 what if water dried up during the match ? :-) 2011-06-10T09:04:42 fixed as being variable, with fixed range and exact probability of each range. 2011-06-10T09:04:44 edit: attack2 2011-06-10T09:05:02 stocha: and the server needs to be doing those variable numbers from day #1 2011-06-10T09:05:11 carlop: can you give a pictture ? 2011-06-10T09:05:29 attack2=5: http://pastebin.com/Wa0HdEE3 2011-06-10T09:05:43 Zaphus: i agree. From day one of live contests, all must be fixed. Hence an extended beta period. 2011-06-10T09:05:57 attack2=4: http://pastebin.com/aAMSAYu1 2011-06-10T09:06:39 Zaphus: OH GOD! 2011-06-10T09:07:02 why are there a AND b in the blocking pattern ? 2011-06-10T09:07:05 that would be horrible for path finding 2011-06-10T09:07:33 water drying up would be no problem for me so far :) 2011-06-10T09:07:43 it would only make path finding easier and easier 2011-06-10T09:08:06 that's an interesting idea. to put with dynamic maps in general :p 2011-06-10T09:08:27 At least it probably has very interesting game acceleration property the water drying. 2011-06-10T09:08:35 Zaphus: a fixed rule for is a damage rule, but attack range should be changed to see how well the bots can cope with it 2011-06-10T09:08:43 A is the attacking team, going to death in Thermopylae, B is defending team that survive forever 2011-06-10T09:09:00 but ... i think map mapping is tricky enough without being dynamic. 2011-06-10T09:09:09 we shouldn't enforce bots with fixed strategies 2011-06-10T09:09:23 carlop : a blocking pattern don't depend on the opponents strategy 2011-06-10T09:09:39 it works for all opponents strategys 2011-06-10T09:09:51 so there should be no A in the patterns. 2011-06-10T09:09:54 that is the opponent best strategy, every other strategy can't be better 2011-06-10T09:09:57 sir_macelon: I don't add player names to the replays. You'd have to ask McLeopold 2011-06-10T09:10:02 ah okay 2011-06-10T09:10:41 B %%%.B.. ..a..B. ...a.B. ...a.B. %%%%%%%%% 2011-06-10T09:10:55 first pattern of attack=5 2011-06-10T09:11:09 what prevent A to send only one ant and to kill one B. 2011-06-10T09:11:33 the second b starting from top more specifically 2011-06-10T09:12:11 how is possible that less ant can kill more enemies ? 2011-06-10T09:12:40 it's possible that one ant, actually kill another ant. With a 1:1 ratio. depending on the topology :p 2011-06-10T09:13:08 and i think in your first pattern, you can have some A approching and killing exactly one B 2011-06-10T09:13:21 so it would destroy the pattern, and prove it is not a static block. 2011-06-10T09:13:23 show me where to put the a that can kill 2011-06-10T09:14:22 mmm 2011-06-10T09:14:26 maybe i'm wrong :p 2011-06-10T09:14:40 it's hard with all the ascii stuff. 2011-06-10T09:14:43 how about someone makes a bot that actually implements some of these, to demonstrate ? 2011-06-10T09:14:56 can we make multiple accounts during the beta ? 2011-06-10T09:14:56 the a line is the "line of fire", if the defense work no A can be to the right, and be to the left don't influence the outcome, and the best possibility for break defense is attack with all possible ants 2011-06-10T09:16:04 mm but for the second pattern 2011-06-10T09:16:09 the big wall of Bs 2011-06-10T09:16:22 what if a go toward with a straight wall ? 2011-06-10T09:16:33 what if A go toward with a straight wall. 2011-06-10T09:16:49 it suffice that one B dies, and it's not a static blocking scheme. 2011-06-10T09:16:56 Zaphus: i think yes, locutus2 already do a copy of himself, but i don't know official answer 2011-06-10T09:17:20 Zaphus: go for it! 2011-06-10T09:17:30 if so, I might try a test bot to do some blocking over the weekend, to see if it's plausible 2011-06-10T09:17:39 carlop: but maybe you pattern works :p 2011-06-10T09:17:48 *** olexs has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.) 2011-06-10T09:17:59 as long as you aren't spamming, multiple bots is fine during beta 2011-06-10T09:18:07 i have trouble solving the death rules just with my head :p 2011-06-10T09:18:17 it's a bannable offense to have more than 1 account for the official server later 2011-06-10T09:18:43 but people need to have server where they can put multiple instances with different features. 2011-06-10T09:18:44 although where people messed up emails/genuinely weren't using more than 1 account in pw, the unused account was just deleted 2011-06-10T09:18:55 so someone will have to provide it. if officials don't. 2011-06-10T09:19:45 yeah, thats fine (for PW I was probably the one person with multiple accounts legitimately, because I made the starterbot accounts as a baseline, with permission) 2011-06-10T09:19:49 zaphus asked officially for puting on a copy. 2011-06-10T09:20:20 http://www.wimp.com/withoutrope/ == my hands are now a river 2011-06-10T09:20:33 stocha: if you want to test multiple bots when it goes live, use the TCP server (assuming there is one) 2011-06-10T09:20:34 problem with blocking is that you need a lot of ants to do it. not to mention you have to analyse the map etc. 2011-06-10T09:20:42 Zaphus: there will be one 2011-06-10T09:20:56 yeah, i don't have a problem with blocking 2011-06-10T09:20:59 but i don't want it to be too easy 2011-06-10T09:21:07 Zaphys> tcp server ask for you to have a machine available to host your own bot. obviously not everybody will have just that. 2011-06-10T09:21:19 ideally it would have been impossible to completely block arbitrary width corridors 2011-06-10T09:21:25 although tcp is still important in my opinion :) 2011-06-10T09:21:40 how are they goingto upload a bot without a computer? 2011-06-10T09:21:42 stocha: yep, but someone else could also start a hosted server too, it's all open sourced... not as likely to happen though 2011-06-10T09:22:03 antimatroid: write it on their phone. it's actually plausible if you can zip the files 2011-06-10T09:22:20 phones, what are they? 2011-06-10T09:22:24 i don't even own a mobile :P 2011-06-10T09:22:36 they can have a computer, and wife. then they can't use the computer at night :p 2011-06-10T09:22:43 and hardly during the day. 2011-06-10T09:23:09 especially if the computer is old, with a 200w signature. And heavy fan noise. 2011-06-10T09:23:22 what would be cool would be to make the main server run with tcp bots 2011-06-10T09:23:32 It's summer here. wife don't want the pc to heat the room even more :p 2011-06-10T09:23:38 so you can upload your bot, or just run it locally 2011-06-10T09:23:45 server bots get less games 2011-06-10T09:23:51 the main server ? 2011-06-10T09:23:57 it's winter here :P i need all the heat i can get 2011-06-10T09:23:59 you mean the official server ? 2011-06-10T09:24:06 yeah 2011-06-10T09:24:26 that would make the contest depend on everyone's hardware 2011-06-10T09:24:39 so univ people wich access to cluster will win the finals :p 2011-06-10T09:24:51 (assuming computing power maters, wich is not proven but well) 2011-06-10T09:25:22 i think the idea of the final going with everyone having same resources is good. 2011-06-10T09:26:46 quick understanding of the combat rules: each ant that can attack other ants gives 1/N damage to each of those ants, everything is summed, those that hit 1.0 die, right ? (and we hope for no rounding errors) 2011-06-10T09:26:55 did anyone watch that link? 2011-06-10T09:27:27 zaphus: i think yes. and rounding error are not likely 2011-06-10T09:27:35 what link ? 2011-06-10T09:27:54 with N other other ants 2011-06-10T09:28:05 ok, so I'm looking at the 3-corridoor block someone pasted... how can 2 of the B's be standing within attack range ? 2011-06-10T09:28:34 b don't kill each others 2011-06-10T09:28:50 a ant do 1/N damage to each of N ENNEMY ant in range. 2011-06-10T09:29:18 correct, but there are 2 B's 2 squares from A's, thats not a stable position 2011-06-10T09:29:32 A's are not important in those patterns. 2011-06-10T09:29:40 who is doing the blocking ? 2011-06-10T09:29:40 only B and water matters really. 2011-06-10T09:29:48 i think it is B 2011-06-10T09:29:56 hmm, I think it is A 2011-06-10T09:30:11 contestbot: later tell mcleopold i have an issue for the local visualizer: i run my bot with command "java -cp ../../bin MyBot" and the viz names it "bin" 2011-06-10T09:30:11 sir_macelon: I think that worked... 2011-06-10T09:30:13 but I'll check on paper 2011-06-10T09:30:15 B indeed look like he is trying to block :) 2011-06-10T09:31:12 a possibilities for avoiding block is persistent HP (so sooner or later defender will die) or probabilities death (for me the best thing but not so obvious for newcomers) 2011-06-10T09:31:17 the question is does it work for all A strategy, without B ever loosing a ant. 2011-06-10T09:31:32 carlop : game fighting rule is settled yet. 2011-06-10T09:31:46 ok 2011-06-10T09:31:47 the only thing not settled is map generation at the moment. 2011-06-10T09:32:19 i know that a lot of discussion have been made, I discover this year contest only 2 days ago... 2011-06-10T09:32:34 yeah, i understand you position :) 2011-06-10T09:32:54 the thing is, it is settled. you can still discuss it for entertainment purpose though. 2011-06-10T09:33:02 ok, I see - convex hull focuses the attack so you can't step into that area... but it totally relies on there being no other way to enter to attack from the other side, which is weak. 2011-06-10T09:33:04 or you can read the forum. 2011-06-10T09:33:45 Zaphus : it's a blocking setting. So now you can analyse each and every map and sees if this situation might occur 2011-06-10T09:34:06 if it occurs, you have : does it work against dumb bot. And then how does it fares against strong bots :) 2011-06-10T09:34:11 but if you can block a 6 width corridor, for a lot of map is possible to block all the way to your area, so other block guarantee that no-one can come from behind 2011-06-10T09:34:19 You'd still need to seal more than 50% of the map so that you get most of the food, but it would be interesting! 2011-06-10T09:34:45 If you hare 100% protected, and opponents aren't you don't need a lot of map. 2011-06-10T09:34:57 most possibly you can just try to endure. And hope to finish 2d 2011-06-10T09:35:08 Unless someone can do even a minor exploit of it in the Beta, I can't see why it would be worth worrying about - assuming people try 2011-06-10T09:35:14 ok, you take 2nd,, I'll take 1st :-) 2011-06-10T09:35:38 carlop: there were two contests last year :P 2011-06-10T09:35:43 Yet, you have to look at real maps, and see if 100% protection is possible. and then you have to wonder if it is achievable when playing against the strong bots. 2011-06-10T09:35:45 i don't think we'll manage another this year though 2011-06-10T09:35:45 I know... 2011-06-10T09:36:14 oh, i misread, nevermind d; 2011-06-10T09:36:21 So someone focusing on that topic would be intersting during beta test anyway :) 2011-06-10T09:36:22 I do tron and skipped PW cause have a busy period 2011-06-10T09:37:34 my current bot has sat near the top with it's strategy (not perfect, but pretty good) - I'll see if I can modify it to 'want' to do blocking instead of what it does... or maybe switch to blocking after XX turns (you need enough ants first) 2011-06-10T09:37:46 i will go for write a blocking bot, without exploring - pathfinding - attacking, just find a blockable area and wait 2011-06-10T09:38:07 you need enough ant 2011-06-10T09:38:12 and to protect your weak side 2011-06-10T09:38:16 ideally 2011-06-10T09:38:33 so do a greedy bot, with a few exploring 2011-06-10T09:38:36 so it can still grow a bit 2011-06-10T09:39:06 and then when you have enough ant, you can block that area. while a few ant still go by greedy/ + a litle explore 2011-06-10T09:39:06 map1 has a couple of areas you should be able to hold, if you get lucky to get them - small though 2011-06-10T09:39:17 yeah, i mean don't write "near optimal pathifinding" or other difficult thing 2011-06-10T09:39:23 you're all welcome to try your hand at map generation 2011-06-10T09:39:26 it's lots of fun! 2011-06-10T09:39:35 optimal pathfinding is trivial. 2011-06-10T09:39:39 ah 2011-06-10T09:39:44 for empty maps i mean :) 2011-06-10T09:40:43 i think optimal pathfinding is not so trivial, but maybe we have different definition of optimal and trivial 2011-06-10T09:41:05 well, some pathfinding is needed for a greedy bot. so we agree on that :) 2011-06-10T09:41:12 and then also some collision avoidance 2011-06-10T09:41:15 *** sir_macelon has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2011-06-10T09:41:16 optimal is easy, efficiently, that's another topic 2011-06-10T09:41:16 because collision can hurt a lot. 2011-06-10T09:41:31 so: greedy a bit of explore (if no food in sight) and then a bit of collision avoidance. 2011-06-10T09:41:40 you then have a base for a blocker test. 2011-06-10T09:41:48 "given an empty map, no fog of war, and no enemy, what's the fastest way of collect all the food" ? 2011-06-10T09:41:58 that's not path finding 2011-06-10T09:42:01 that's more than path finding 2011-06-10T09:42:08 that's difficult i agree :) 2011-06-10T09:42:36 my method isn't optimal there but it's pretty good 2011-06-10T09:42:42 much better than say hunterbot 2011-06-10T09:42:45 although in a lot of case a simple greedy scheme might prove efficient. but that's more that path finding on an empty map :p 2011-06-10T09:43:03 the reference is the greedy food gathering i think. 2011-06-10T09:43:48 symmetric7, it's easy to block with few ant every isle 2011-06-10T09:44:13 the one that stocha curently use to be specific about it :p 2011-06-10T09:44:37 so build a prototype carlop, that will be fun :) 2011-06-10T09:44:44 if you can hack it quick 2011-06-10T09:45:04 map analysis seemed a bit tricky to me though. last time i tried :p 2011-06-10T09:45:13 hope you'll have more easiness out of it. 2011-06-10T09:45:19 so we can have a blocker on the test 2011-06-10T09:46:05 can someone look at the 3-corridoor block pattern ? I have a question 2011-06-10T09:46:50 the bottom B is vulnerable, the position of the 'a' to the left of it gets a 1-1 kill (they both die) - how is that a block ? 2011-06-10T09:47:39 *** sigh has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T09:47:48 if true, then it's not a blocK; does A have a strategy to get there ? 2011-06-10T09:48:14 what link, i pasted here a lot of bugged one.... 2011-06-10T09:48:23 just walk down the corridor on the bottom row, the ant will kill the bottom ant 2011-06-10T09:48:28 A can only go through the . marked 2011-06-10T09:48:29 but i think that the final one should be right 2011-06-10T09:48:47 this one: http://pastebin.com/Wa0HdEE3 2011-06-10T09:48:49 it's radius = 5 i think 2011-06-10T09:48:59 yeah, whats our radius set to ? 2011-06-10T09:49:06 raduis=5 != radius=4 2011-06-10T09:49:14 current is 4 2011-06-10T09:49:24 attack2=4: http://pastebin.com/aAMSAYu1 2011-06-10T09:49:29 ok :-) 2011-06-10T09:50:05 radius=5 is first civlization game city raduis :p 2011-06-10T09:50:34 there are blocking pattern both for attack2 = 4 or attack2 = 5 (and i suspect for almost all attack2>=2) 2011-06-10T09:51:50 *** locutus2 has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T09:53:16 *** Naktibalda has quit IRC (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]) 2011-06-10T09:56:46 water evaporating maps solve the blocking problem. this is true and simple :p 2011-06-10T09:57:31 i kinda like the idea, especially if it happens late in the game. Like from half game, to end up with no water left near the end. it's worth trying :p 2011-06-10T09:57:57 it could mean some change to the engine. Wich would be bad if the change are heavy. 2011-06-10T09:58:37 like : if a food spawn over water, it evaporate the water instead of growing a food. 2011-06-10T09:59:05 or even the food replace the water. 2011-06-10T10:01:48 From my early tests, I thought that attackradius^2 of 5 made blocking patterns too easy to create, and that radius^2 of 4 would have to be used 2011-06-10T10:01:57 but perhaps with water evaporating 5 would be possible 2011-06-10T10:04:27 i don't think water evaporating is going to happen 2011-06-10T10:04:33 it's a big change 2011-06-10T10:04:41 no, probably not 2011-06-10T10:05:37 you tryed a blocker bot smiley ? 2011-06-10T10:05:44 not sure if it's any better than the ascii, but here's an image of that blocking pattern with radius 5: http://imgur.com/Xq4KL 2011-06-10T10:06:03 no, I made a utility to test some patterns graphically 2011-06-10T10:06:09 screenshot above 2011-06-10T10:06:24 it's hard on colorblind people :p 2011-06-10T10:06:35 sorry 2011-06-10T10:06:43 bad colour selection, I know 2011-06-10T10:06:44 who go the link with the color blind allowed colors ? :p 2011-06-10T10:07:14 I don't know about this link - can you tell me? 2011-06-10T10:07:19 bah, i guess the problem is more that it's difficult to solve combat in the head, rather than picturing. 2011-06-10T10:07:28 i think frontier had it. 2011-06-10T10:07:44 because he worked on the visualizer. 2011-06-10T10:08:14 searching logs... 2011-06-10T10:08:47 it was quite a few weeks ago 2011-06-10T10:08:58 you maybe faster with googling it :p 2011-06-10T10:09:09 smiley1983: your blocking patter is equal to mine (and you can block a 6-corridor with the same patter, adding another row in the middle) 2011-06-10T10:09:20 I've got the grep of the logs in front of me now, I just need to find the link 2011-06-10T10:09:20 http://jfly.iam.u-tokyo.ac.jp/color/ 2011-06-10T10:09:29 yes, I copied your pattern 2011-06-10T10:09:35 just made it graphical 2011-06-10T10:09:49 because it was mentioned that the ascii is hard 2011-06-10T10:09:53 from google i found this one. 2011-06-10T10:10:06 yeah that was me. but i think i should update my brain rather :) 2011-06-10T10:10:39 still it is good to have the picture ready for people 2011-06-10T10:10:55 maybe you can post it in the forum or something once it's ready (and color blind proof :p) 2011-06-10T10:10:59 yes, it's easier to understand i think 2011-06-10T10:11:09 so people can link to it when needed 2011-06-10T10:11:26 get rid of the litle ascii number though :p 2011-06-10T10:11:50 and i don't think the A are really necessary 2011-06-10T10:12:00 maybe only one, to show the attacker direction of heading 2011-06-10T10:12:29 *** stocha has quit IRC (Quit: Page closed) 2011-06-10T10:25:07 *** aerique has quit IRC (Quit: ...) 2011-06-10T10:29:35 ok, you can indeed set up blocks (I've done two hardcoded tests on map 10) - of course all you get is survival, the other bot cleans up the map with my dumb code... however it's definitely feasible to do - I'll try to write a bot to detect and take advantage of it over the weekend 2011-06-10T10:30:06 you do need more than just a corridoor, but I can find locations that work all over the place on my one test map 2011-06-10T10:33:59 *** locutus2 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-06-10T10:47:29 Colorblindness can be simulated in Gimp. There is a viewing filter for that :) 2011-06-10T10:49:51 *** dr- has quit IRC (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.0) 2011-06-10T10:54:25 *** Zaphus has quit IRC (Quit: Page closed) 2011-06-10T10:55:52 *** Palmik has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-06-10T10:57:17 *** sigh has quit IRC (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2011-06-10T11:02:11 Frontier: thanks, if there's any call for more images I'll redo the colors that way 2011-06-10T11:04:23 *** locutus2 has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T11:04:39 *** Accoun has quit IRC () 2011-06-10T11:06:47 *** Accoun has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T11:16:06 *** Zaphus has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T11:16:49 anyone here ? 2011-06-10T11:16:56 everyone here 2011-06-10T11:17:58 :-) following on from the blocking discussion, here's a cheap and nasty hack to my bot to make it start blocking at turn #200 - it doesnt even try to do perfect blocks, but some of them will be. http://aichallengebeta.hypertriangle.com/profile.php?user=133 2011-06-10T11:18:32 note that it's first game doesnt actually link to the right game, use the newer one 2011-06-10T11:22:33 bed time for me (past 1am) cya 2011-06-10T11:26:50 *** Zaphus has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2011-06-10T11:32:29 *** Naktibalda has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T11:36:01 *** UncleVasya has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T11:36:20 *** carlop has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2011-06-10T11:40:02 *** Ice_Harley has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2011-06-10T11:45:30 *** carlop has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T11:49:20 *** smiley1983 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-06-10T11:50:46 *** locutus2 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2011-06-10T11:51:35 *** smiley1983 has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T12:04:35 *** amstan has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T12:04:35 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o amstan 2011-06-10T12:16:06 *** Palmik has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T12:25:08 *** okayzed is now known as okay 2011-06-10T12:30:04 hi - with c++ Bot, i have a problem with food not being removed ... - the 'state' shows food that has in fact spawned into and ant ... does anyone know if this problem has occurred for others? 2011-06-10T12:35:19 *** Parsley has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T12:36:06 antimatroid: can you help him? 2011-06-10T12:38:22 replay with map showing rotational symmetry: http://pastebin.com/5NpQ2Xwx 2011-06-10T12:38:55 *** InsaneMalkavian has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2011-06-10T12:39:02 *** Naktibalda has quit IRC (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.86.1 [Firefox 4.0.1/20110413222027]) 2011-06-10T12:40:34 and the map file: http://pastebin.com/jZuLDUAb 2011-06-10T12:41:20 Cannot be used with the current symmetric spawning algoritm, obviously. 2011-06-10T12:42:00 *** Parsley has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2011-06-10T12:43:35 *** _0x47 <_0x47!~slash@p5B12F1F8.dip.t-dialin.net> has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T12:45:19 *** _0x471 <_0x471!~slash@p57B3F707.dip.t-dialin.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2011-06-10T12:47:56 george1914: maybe your problem is for food that you see, than you move away and the food go into the fog (so you can't know if it's still there or if someone eat it) ? 2011-06-10T12:47:58 *** stocha has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T12:48:05 looking at this game http://aichallengebeta.hypertriangle.com/visualizer.php?game=19457 2011-06-10T12:48:27 i conclude that scoring system simply doesn't compensate for loosing more ants than the challenger 2011-06-10T12:49:10 "fighting well" and much more score simply means nothing when you have fewer ants than you remaining neighbors 2011-06-10T12:49:48 my conclusion is that the scoring system will never compensate the randomness of multiplayer. 2011-06-10T12:50:06 carlop: hi, no, i am next to the food ... 2011-06-10T12:51:12 stocha: do you have suggestions? 2011-06-10T12:53:33 so i just took the c++ starter package, but set the bot to move West every move - it runs straight into a food square ... 2011-06-10T12:53:48 on the visualiser, this spawns and ant, and the food goes away ... 2011-06-10T12:54:09 only three at the moment : 1) cope with it. 2) make the game 1vs1 3) play each game several time, with all possible permutation of positions 2011-06-10T12:54:21 but on the State struct, the food remains ... whilst the spawned ant shows up once it has moved away ... 2011-06-10T12:55:51 i ran: ./playgame.py --seed 43 --end_wait=1.25 --verbose --log_dir game_logs --turns 10 --map_file maps/symmetric_maps/symmetric_11.map "$@" "python sample_bots/python/HunterBot.py" "python sample_bots/python/HunterBot.py" ./MyBot "python sample_bots/python/HunterBot.py" 2011-06-10T12:56:00 antimatroid wrote the cpp starter, so when he notices the discussion he'll probably be able to help 2011-06-10T12:56:28 ie map = symm 11 + seed = 43 +my bot was the 3rd one ... 2011-06-10T12:56:44 ok, i'll keep looking in, thanks :) 2011-06-10T13:00:16 amstan: 3) has the advantage of rendering assymetric map game more fair. 2011-06-10T13:00:46 stocha: we don't have assymmetric maps 2011-06-10T13:01:11 afaik 2011-06-10T13:01:18 and if we did, i would be against it 2011-06-10T13:01:27 george1914: i think that the food information should be modified after the call of updateVisionInformation, cause you want to set food=0 for every visible cell, and then maybe set to 1 if you see food, or something like this 2011-06-10T13:02:57 maybe a solution is push in a vector every food information, set food = 0 for visible cell on updateVisionInfomation, then read the food information, set to 1 the cell 2011-06-10T13:03:36 carlop: hm, the strange thing is that everything works ok most of the time - in only <10% of games do i get this problem ... 2011-06-10T13:04:09 so the starterbot is doing it 'almost' right ... 2011-06-10T13:04:26 amstam: fact is map have assymetric player strength 2011-06-10T13:04:56 *** bhasker has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T13:04:57 yes, almost all the times the code should work, but maybe is better to correct it.... 2011-06-10T13:08:46 stocha: obviously play more game possible is the best solution to absorb every randomization (also play 1v1 switching position can give advantage to one of the player, if there is a fixed ordering like NSWE when two move seem equal), but replay more times the same map have another big problem: you are not randomizing your opponent.... so the best way is to play more game possible, each time... 2011-06-10T13:08:47 ...with a different set of opponents and relative position 2011-06-10T13:09:32 carlop: ok, i'll wait and see what antimatroid says - i guess antimatroid can give definitive view, and then starter bot can be changed (if needed). thanks for your replies. 2011-06-10T13:10:23 carlop> i guess with enough games, you would be proved right. 2011-06-10T13:10:43 same goes with all assymetry most probably 2011-06-10T13:10:51 stocha: what? 2011-06-10T13:11:12 amstan: playing enough game will compensate the assymetries 2011-06-10T13:11:31 i don't see what you mean by assymetries 2011-06-10T13:11:52 *** smiley1983 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2011-06-10T13:12:35 *** smiley1983 has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T13:13:01 amstan: i mean not-symetries 2011-06-10T13:13:29 I think shocha's assymetries are starting near 2 top bot versus starting near a starting bot that don't fight with you, so maybe the same game can have different result for different positioning on the map 2011-06-10T13:13:58 carlop: yes, that's maybe one of those things 2011-06-10T13:14:08 i think it can be fixed by having at most 4 ppl per game 2011-06-10T13:15:29 george1914: it has occurred to me that antimatroid may be asleep by now - it's 3:16 a.m here (I'm in the same time zone) and I think he said something about having exams 2011-06-10T13:15:59 george1914: you could try fixing it yourself ;) 2011-06-10T13:21:48 amstan: 4ppl reduce randomness, but I don't think is a mayor problem that the best bot can lose some match, cause after it will beat the variance over a large number of game 2011-06-10T13:22:00 yes 2011-06-10T13:22:09 but that still means adding some randomness 2011-06-10T13:22:25 stocha: and no.. running games multiple times with same map same opponents is not an option 2011-06-10T13:23:24 yes, is randomness vs more funny match, so maybe I think this issue can be investigated later, seeing what type of map (4ppl, 6pll, 8ppl) seem better in some sense 2011-06-10T13:27:02 amstam: so, i have fixed it (i think)... 1 line of code - BUT i dont fully follow the c++ code - seems it ought to already work ok from receiving an "r" message for removal of food - so i am slightly confused, and would prefer not to modify your code without someone else understanding what is up ... 2011-06-10T13:27:41 ok 2011-06-10T13:27:47 talk to antimatroid first then 2011-06-10T13:29:53 george1914: now i've modified it too, i've added after line 219 of State.cc "state.grid[row][col].isFood = 0;", it should work, but tell to antimatroid in every case 2011-06-10T13:32:07 carlop: yes, exactly what i changed. but presumably there should ALSO be an "r" sent by the contest engine, which would make our 'fix' unneeded ... ? 2011-06-10T13:36:05 george1914: don't know, personally I think is unnecessary the "r" after a spawn, cause you have already this information, but the "r" line are redundant so don't know the exact logic behind this 2011-06-10T13:37:53 carlop: you mean that the "r" is no longer part of the game standard? 2011-06-10T13:40:16 don't know if the decision was to exclude the "r" line, but they are useless, so you can do a working bot without them (and discarding a line when begin with 'r') 2011-06-10T13:44:29 carlop: ok, i understand you. yes, i guess so. i was worried about: a) c++ starterbot not correct, or b) game server messages not correct ... i will ask antimatroid ... 2011-06-10T13:52:44 *** guyverthree has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T13:52:48 hey guys 2011-06-10T13:54:01 anyone here tried turning on the debug in the C++ starter bot ??? 2011-06-10T13:54:59 guyverthree: umm, why are you so surprised? 2011-06-10T13:55:02 what's the problem? 2011-06-10T13:55:50 guyverthree: yes, i have 2011-06-10T13:55:53 why? 2011-06-10T13:55:54 habit i think 2011-06-10T13:56:11 i am getting an unresolved external symbol on the << operator 2011-06-10T13:57:06 bug.h is included in all the needed files but bot.obj won't link properly 2011-06-10T13:57:12 well, i downloaded the c++ starterbot a few hours ago, using g++ to compile - i get complaint about 'NULL' somewhere, but that is all 2011-06-10T13:57:30 i am using windows if that however 2011-06-10T13:57:34 :( 2011-06-10T13:58:49 i'll try getting it again 2011-06-10T13:58:56 and doing a diff 2011-06-10T13:59:11 i guess nobody really tested it on vc++, since we don't really use that 2011-06-10T13:59:23 if you can fix it, we may include your fix on the website 2011-06-10T13:59:31 george1914: I think I remember the situation with the c++ starter now: antimatroid hasn't uploaded the fix for the absent 'r' lines (which are indeed no longer part of the standard) because he's still trying to find a timing function which works in Windows. 2011-06-10T14:00:19 i have a timer function 2011-06-10T14:00:55 smiley1983: ah, right - i just read the 'game specification' webpage and it still says 'r' is sent ... 2011-06-10T14:01:08 maybe another thing to edit/fix? 2011-06-10T14:01:38 btw, sorry for my ignorance, but am i able to change/fix things? 2011-06-10T14:02:01 i just create an issue on github: https://github.com/aichallenge/aichallenge/issues/181, hope that is clear 2011-06-10T14:03:29 ok, i will do that 2011-06-10T14:03:32 I believe the contest organizers would be grateful for any help, particularly if you're familiar with Python or PHP - and everyone can report issues 2011-06-10T14:04:00 Working on the contest code does not disqualify you from participating, though 2011-06-10T14:04:48 i am familiar with neither, alas. 2011-06-10T14:05:27 me also. I've just written a map generator in OCaml, but I'm not sure if it'll be used. 2011-06-10T14:05:45 ... but i wondered if eg i can edit the 'game specification' page, rather than asking an organiser to do it ... 2011-06-10T14:06:16 ... maybe i should stick with making githup issue 2011-06-10T14:06:48 I'm not sure... amstan would know perhaps 2011-06-10T14:07:07 george1914: what change? 2011-06-10T14:07:29 the spec page still tells people to expect 'r' lines 2011-06-10T14:08:25 *** carlop has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2011-06-10T14:08:47 and we're sure it's removed, right? 2011-06-10T14:09:08 if, so yes 2011-06-10T14:09:26 I'm not really the one to answer that :) That was my understanding, though. 2011-06-10T14:09:42 *** Racko has quit IRC (Quit: Page closed) 2011-06-10T14:09:52 that was the assumption yesterday 2011-06-10T14:10:20 *** stocha has quit IRC (Quit: Page closed) 2011-06-10T14:11:44 *** McLeopold has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T14:12:04 the specification on the wiki has been updated it just hasn't been regenerated on the beta site 2011-06-10T14:12:32 https://github.com/aichallenge/aichallenge/wiki/Ants-Game-Specification 2011-06-10T14:13:29 ah, right, that is ok then. thanks. 2011-06-10T14:14:12 i will submit github issue for editing the c++ starterbot ... 2011-06-10T14:14:46 antimatroid: what is the big issue? 2011-06-10T14:15:01 are R lines still being sent out from the game engine 2011-06-10T14:16:13 they shouldn't be, I commented it out a few days ago 2011-06-10T14:17:05 I think perhaps the c++ starter hasn't been updated to stop expecting them yet 2011-06-10T14:17:08 but the c++ starterbot seems to expect them - and i get the wrong 'map' (it shows food, that is not there since it spawned to ants) 2011-06-10T14:18:24 antimatroid: hi, good to see you - i found that the State struct in c++ starterbot was sometimes showing food that was not there ... 2011-06-10T14:20:47 yeah i removed that from mine yesterday and still works fine 2011-06-10T14:21:00 anyone know if you can overide the == operator in C++ 2011-06-10T14:21:07 *** MuTa-ofd00m has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2011-06-10T14:22:56 bool operator==(..etc 2011-06-10T14:26:02 *** bhasker has quit IRC (Quit: bhasker) 2011-06-10T14:31:54 thanks 2011-06-10T14:32:07 I think i have figured out why the debug was not working 2011-06-10T14:32:23 state.bug << state << endl; 2011-06-10T14:32:48 i don't think there is a override for the << in the state.h 2011-06-10T14:32:56 to a bug class 2011-06-10T14:33:17 does this make any sence ??? 2011-06-10T14:37:23 *** o_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T14:45:25 *** bhasker has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T14:45:59 *** carlop has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T14:49:46 replay which shows solifugid's inability to break barricades :p : http://aichallengebeta.hypertriangle.com/visualizer.php?game=19550&col=30&row=90&turn=750 2011-06-10T14:50:03 *** Frontier has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.) 2011-06-10T14:55:03 *** guyverthree has quit IRC (Quit: Page closed) 2011-06-10T14:55:19 McLeopold: few hours ago we had (me, antimatroid, stocha, others) a discussion about blocking problem, i think that are possible to block corridor forever (for attack2=4 width 4 corridor can be blocked, for attack2=5 width 6 corridor), so maybe this can be a big problem 2011-06-10T14:58:32 antimatroid say to tell to you... cause is possible to almost block (and for the current map-set all) the map, degenerating the whole game 2011-06-10T15:00:44 here there are some blocking scheme: http://pastebin.com/vTJjJfKk 2011-06-10T15:10:20 *** _flag <_flag!~flag@69-165-173-172.dsl.teksavvy.com> has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T15:10:34 *** olexs has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T15:13:08 *** o_ has quit IRC (Quit: Page closed) 2011-06-10T15:24:08 *** okay is now known as okayzed 2011-06-10T15:31:01 *** okayzed is now known as okay 2011-06-10T15:34:44 *** olexs1 has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T15:35:49 *** bhasker has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-06-10T15:37:41 *** olexs has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2011-06-10T15:38:24 *** bhasker has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T15:46:13 *** smiley1983 has quit IRC (Quit: leaving) 2011-06-10T15:53:26 *** Accoun has quit IRC () 2011-06-10T15:59:33 whatthehell 2011-06-10T15:59:45 when did you guys change the radii? 2011-06-10T16:00:04 55,4,1 2011-06-10T16:00:12 *** okay has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2011-06-10T16:00:13 instead of 93,6,2 2011-06-10T16:00:17 *** okay has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T16:00:23 *** Mathnerd314 has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T16:02:59 *** UncleVasya has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-06-10T16:03:53 *** qacek has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T16:04:39 oh, and its inclusive 2011-06-10T16:04:51 dandy 2011-06-10T16:07:41 carlop: you there? 2011-06-10T16:07:49 *** Accoun has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T16:10:36 *** Eruonen has quit IRC () 2011-06-10T16:10:46 yes 2011-06-10T16:16:34 i would like you to confirm something for me 2011-06-10T16:16:46 since you followed the blcoking conversation 2011-06-10T16:16:49 http://aichallengebeta.hypertriangle.com/visualizer.php?game=19550 2011-06-10T16:17:07 zoom into 106/57 2011-06-10T16:17:22 and watch what happens near the end 2011-06-10T16:17:51 *** Eruonen has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T16:31:08 *** jbroman has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2011-06-10T16:31:37 *** jbroman has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T16:32:17 carlop: 2011-06-10T16:32:23 did you watch it? 2011-06-10T16:32:51 i've see it, what's the problem ? 2011-06-10T16:33:35 i don't think is so effective the diagonal block, cause you can broke it from the side 2011-06-10T16:34:02 if the darker blue steps to the coordinate i just said it would kill off one light blue 2011-06-10T16:34:07 yes 2011-06-10T16:34:27 why the hell is not doing it? 2011-06-10T16:34:32 yes, or step line vs line with almost 1:1 kill/death 2011-06-10T16:35:13 ok, i thought for a moment i dont understand something 2011-06-10T16:35:43 and they changed the radii, but i was thinking with the old pattern in mind, and it didnt work 2011-06-10T16:36:10 and now this bot simply doesnt step there, but i was unsure of wth is going on 2011-06-10T16:36:32 i think this solifugid's bot had some check that calculate each ant alone 2011-06-10T16:37:10 so if you go against the lane alone you die, and he don't go 2011-06-10T16:37:30 i spotted a moment when one ant tries to attack alone 2011-06-10T16:38:55 turn 1753 2011-06-10T16:39:07 tile 101/52 2011-06-10T16:39:14 no that ypu should care 2011-06-10T16:39:29 well, all is right again 2011-06-10T16:42:06 it's your bot solifugid ? 2011-06-10T16:43:08 don't understand to the alone ant at turn 1753, but I think it's a bug caused by the food that the turn before spawned an ant 2011-06-10T16:43:44 its not mine 2011-06-10T16:43:50 mine is imagine 2011-06-10T16:44:05 maybe there is something wrong in the parser code (something related with "r" row maybe) 2011-06-10T16:44:22 i spotted another kind of interesting situation 2011-06-10T16:44:27 lets call it zap 2011-06-10T16:44:44 ok 2011-06-10T16:44:47 ill upload an image 2011-06-10T16:46:12 http://imgur.com/80h3I 2011-06-10T16:46:40 consider this, when two or more ants are coming together diagonally 2011-06-10T16:47:06 maybe one of them should be translated 1 tile up 2011-06-10T16:47:29 they can basically create a sitation from where anotehr ant cant escape 2011-06-10T16:47:32 it gets zapped 2011-06-10T16:47:43 *** delt0r_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T16:49:11 *** deltOr has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-06-10T16:50:29 *** carlop has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2011-06-10T16:53:33 it would be interesting to find a setup when the 2 attacking ants will all live, and the attackee cant escape 2011-06-10T16:53:45 maybe it cant be done with 2 ants 2011-06-10T16:54:49 *** carlop has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T16:55:25 sorry, i had to reboot my pc 2011-06-10T16:56:34 mcstar: the black tile are ant in the same tile that try to defend ? 2011-06-10T16:57:35 the reds are ants, the black is their respective attack-radius 2011-06-10T16:57:44 ah, sorry 2011-06-10T16:57:53 now, i've red the logs 2011-06-10T16:58:29 im thinking of 2x2 ant attack setups, its more interesting, ill think it through, but i think it can be done what i said when u rebooted 2011-06-10T17:00:59 i'm not sure of your point 2011-06-10T17:01:56 if the 2 ants are in the same team, and in the middle there is an enemy, he always die 2011-06-10T17:03:08 but should be impossible to escape a 2v1 situation almost always, but in this case there is 1 death per side, that isn't a great improvement 2011-06-10T17:04:14 a 2v1 situation is a "win" for the 2 side if they can kill without a single kill, but i'm not sure if this is doable against a good opponent 2011-06-10T17:04:55 thats why im considering when 2x2 ants attack 1 ant 2011-06-10T17:07:21 *** McLeopold has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2011-06-10T17:08:03 i suspect that 4v1 situation (2 from up and 2 from behind) should always score the kill without loss 2011-06-10T17:08:43 2v1 situation the alone ant can almost always kamikazee killing another one 2011-06-10T17:08:48 3v1 don't know 2011-06-10T17:14:54 im trying to visualize this 2011-06-10T17:15:09 but mathematica decided to give me a hard time 2011-06-10T17:17:13 i don't know, i have not any experimenting on micro-battle strategy 2011-06-10T17:18:41 but 2v2 from two side can be a good starting point 2011-06-10T17:20:00 *** Kingpin13 has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T17:21:31 yes 2011-06-10T17:24:27 *** Redgis has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T17:35:18 *** _flag <_flag!~flag@69-165-173-172.dsl.teksavvy.com> has quit IRC (Quit: Lost terminal) 2011-06-10T18:11:41 aichallenge: janzert epsilon * rc83734d / worker/jailguard.py : Refactor jailguard so it exits when the child process exits - http://bit.ly/m9vCdk 2011-06-10T18:12:55 *** akranis has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T18:13:18 *** Zaphus has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T18:13:52 *** Redgis has quit IRC (Quit: ... mains libres) 2011-06-10T18:26:31 *** antimatroid has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2011-06-10T18:31:31 *** carlop has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2011-06-10T18:34:31 *** Palmik has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-06-10T18:50:15 *** amstan has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-06-10T18:51:16 contestbot: later tell McLeopold on the theory that the low draw probability was causing something to take too long to converge I tried a 5% draw probability, this did indeed keep jskills from crashing. I then modified jskills to try 1000 maximum iterations instead of 100, this seems to be working at a 1% draw probability. I'll let it run for a while and see how it goes before checking in the modified jskills version. 2011-06-10T18:51:16 janzert: As you wish. 2011-06-10T18:51:48 *** locutus2 has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T18:56:51 Hi Locutus, nice bot you've got going there :-) 2011-06-10T19:06:52 *** mcstar has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2011-06-10T19:08:59 *** xQuasar has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T19:18:25 *** xQuasar has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-06-10T19:22:41 *** xQuasar has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T19:38:00 *** Quasar has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T19:38:26 *** Quasar is now known as Guest16861 2011-06-10T19:41:35 *** xQuasar has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-06-10T19:48:26 *** guyverthree has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T19:49:10 alrighty guys 2011-06-10T19:49:31 hi 2011-06-10T19:59:19 *** antimatroid has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T20:08:00 *** xQuasar has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T20:08:56 *** Guest16861 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2011-06-10T20:11:01 how's thigns going toady ??? 2011-06-10T20:14:30 *** xQuasar has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2011-06-10T20:17:22 *** sigh has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T20:19:58 *** xQuasar has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T20:21:56 *** akranis has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-06-10T20:24:54 *** locutus2 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-06-10T20:26:06 *** _flag <_flag!~flag@69-165-173-172.dsl.teksavvy.com> has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T20:28:11 *** bhasker has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-06-10T20:32:23 *** Kingpin13 has quit IRC (Quit: the coast is clear) 2011-06-10T20:34:19 *** xQuasar has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 268 seconds) 2011-06-10T20:37:59 *** xQuasar has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T20:42:41 *** olexs1 has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.) 2011-06-10T20:46:19 *** Eruonen has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2011-06-10T20:47:34 *** Eruonen has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T21:23:32 *** guyverthree has quit IRC (Quit: Page closed) 2011-06-10T21:40:49 *** FireFly has quit IRC (Quit: swatted to death) 2011-06-10T21:52:57 *** sigh has quit IRC (Quit: This computer has gone to sleep) 2011-06-10T22:22:21 *** antimatroid has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-06-10T22:33:00 *** Eruonen has quit IRC () 2011-06-10T22:39:38 *** Zaphus has quit IRC (Quit: Page closed) 2011-06-10T23:01:01 *** amstan has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T23:01:01 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o amstan 2011-06-10T23:05:35 What happened to the test server? 2011-06-10T23:25:00 *** antimatroid has joined #aichallenge 2011-06-10T23:42:20 *** xQuasar has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-06-10T23:57:16 *** smiley1983 has joined #aichallenge