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2011-06-15T00:37:10  *** UncleVasya <UncleVasya!kvirc@178-133-190-219.dialup.umc.net.ua> has joined #aichallenge
2011-06-15T00:37:57  <UncleVasya> Hi. There are spamers on forums again: http://ai-contest.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=1313&start=90
2011-06-15T00:38:31  <amstan> UncleVasya: wanna be a mod?
2011-06-15T00:41:59  <amstan> ok.. i'm not going to make you a mod without answering that
2011-06-15T00:42:02  <amstan> and i want to go to bed
2011-06-15T00:42:03  <amstan> cya
2011-06-15T00:42:06  <UncleVasya> amstan: 1. I will have no computer from July 6 to the September.   2. 1. I must to learn English better. (this is what I hope to do while will not have a computer) If in the September your offer will still remain valid I thin I'll accept it. Thank you.
2011-06-15T00:42:23  <amstan> what's with the computerless state?
2011-06-15T00:43:22  <UncleVasya> I'm sduying and I'm live in very different places. Computer is only there where I am studying.
2011-06-15T00:44:15  <UncleVasya> I need to go too, cya.
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2011-06-15T00:50:06  <mleise> Ah compile-time function execution is wonderful!
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2011-06-15T00:52:14  <mleise> The compiler told me that my parser isn't fully implemented yet. At some point it could run into a line of text that has to be parsed into a struct that contains an enum and I haven't implemented enum parsing yet.
2011-06-15T00:52:41  <mleise> And that's just from compiling the code, not loading any test data into the parser.
2011-06-15T00:52:51  <amstan> mleise: sounds like haskell
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2011-06-15T00:53:40  <mleise> I've heard about haskel here a few times. I should take a look at that language some day
2011-06-15T00:54:13  <amstan> yes, it's definatelly on my language todo list
2011-06-15T00:54:29  <amstan> but first.. i want to learn django and get comfortable with c++
2011-06-15T00:54:48  <mleise> haha ok, what part of haskel reminds you of what i said?
2011-06-15T00:55:09  <amstan> the magic stuff that happens in haskell all the time
2011-06-15T00:55:14  <mleise> i don't think compile-time function execution will yield any results
2011-06-15T00:55:39  <amstan> where function declaractions just look like formulas
2011-06-15T00:55:53  <amstan> i can't really explain it, i just know it's awesome
2011-06-15T00:56:27  <amstan> perhaps jmcarthur can give you a demo
2011-06-15T00:56:35  <mleise> http://www.haskell.org/ghc/docs/6.10.1/html/users_guide/template-haskell.html <- this seems to do it
2011-06-15T00:59:01  <mleise> But to answer your implicit question: I'm using D for now. I used C++ last year and Java, Delphi, VisualBasic before that.
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2011-06-15T01:05:09  <mleise> amstan: Haskel would be a lot different from what I'm used to. There is no assignment to variables and everything is just the definition of functions that process input. If someone proposed such a language to me I would say he's crazy1
2011-06-15T01:05:39  <amstan> mleise: yes... functional
2011-06-15T01:05:52  <amstan> anyway.
2011-06-15T01:05:56  <amstan> i'm going to bed
2011-06-15T01:05:58  <amstan> cya
2011-06-15T01:09:41  <mleise> night
2011-06-15T01:19:04  <sigh> mleise, you can assign to a variable you just can't change it afterwards :P
2011-06-15T01:25:01  <mleise> sigh: that's a degenerate case of setting an initial value for a function then, or not?
2011-06-15T01:25:27  <mleise> Anyway look at my super cool text file parser:
2011-06-15T01:25:46  <mleise> when I want an optional name in my text file like 'name "foo bar"' that must not be empty and will be stored in the field '_name' I write:
2011-06-15T01:25:55  <mleise> "parser.read!('?', "name", "!value.empty")(_name)"
2011-06-15T01:31:46  <mleise> It also loads lines like 'xyz "hello" 42 3.1415' into a struct { string, int, float } the same way to have a more complex example. And it understands repeated sections, like multiple turns with content of their own that is parsed in a different method.
2011-06-15T01:39:18  <sigh> mleise, I suppose it's closer to a degenerate case of creating a constant function :P
2011-06-15T01:43:02  <mleise> sigh: How is the program flow in a functional language? I imagine every byte that goes in is processed the same way by all the functions you connected with each other and the result of the outer function is put back onto the console
2011-06-15T01:43:52  <mleise> But there must be ifs and switches in such a language, too.
2011-06-15T01:44:57  <sigh> not everything is processed the same, the excution can take different paths for different data
2011-06-15T01:45:30  <sigh> there are conditionals and in fact they are usually more powerful than in procedural languages
2011-06-15T01:46:21  <sigh> it's just that if you have the *same* input then you will always get the same output
2011-06-15T01:46:37  <sigh> so the same input always takes the same path :)
2011-06-15T01:50:11  <sigh> mleise ^^
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2011-06-15T01:50:38  <mleise> D also implements some ideas from functional languages, like map, filter, reduce and the like, but it is difficult to understand these inside a imperative language :p
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2011-06-15T01:51:35  <sigh> mleise, you can write higher-order functions like map, filter and reduce in any language, although some languages make it easier :)
2011-06-15T01:51:44  <sigh> for example, python comes with those functions builtin
2011-06-15T01:53:11  <mleise> yes, but when the return type is of "Range(map(filter(uniq(int[])))" I don't exactly know what to do with it other than putting that into the array() function to get back a simple old-school array.
2011-06-15T01:53:56  <mleise> These Ranges have attributes like isForwardRange, isRandomAccessRange, isInfinite etc... I have no idea what this stuff is good for.
2011-06-15T01:55:10  <sigh> ah, I don't know D, but based on the names i assume isRandomAccessRange is to determine if certian operations are possible on a range (think array vs linked list)
2011-06-15T01:55:18  <mleise> Seems like someone coming from a functional language will understand the infinite range concept better as functions can be iterated to infinity
2011-06-15T01:55:29  <sigh> and isInfinite... well you know not to iterate over all the elements in an infinite list :P
2011-06-15T01:56:27  <sigh> mleise, you don't need to come from a functional language... for example python has generators which can do the same thing
2011-06-15T01:56:40  <mleise> but when would I want to use a function that can be iterated to infinity and is evaluated on demand? I never needed that, lol.
2011-06-15T01:56:55  <sigh> ever read from a stream?
2011-06-15T01:57:20  <sigh> when you run 'tail -f' that's a close description of what it does :)
2011-06-15T01:57:26  <mleise> while ( ( line = stream.readLine() ) != null ) ...
2011-06-15T01:58:13  <mleise> I mean... why would I bother with the philosophical concept of infinity when I can use a while loop?
2011-06-15T01:59:09  <sigh> it is essentially a different way to think about the while loop... but it is more powerful
2011-06-15T01:59:27  <sigh> for example, the execution can be paused and restarted and handed off to other parts of the programs
2011-06-15T01:59:57  <mleise> Oo and why would I want to do THAT???
2011-06-15T02:00:35  <mleise> I can hardly tell my SocketStream to go back in time.
2011-06-15T02:00:55  <mleise> And I can hand off data to other parts of my program using an if statement, no?
2011-06-15T02:00:56  <sigh> eh? it's the same reason you would pass the stream object to another function
2011-06-15T02:01:57  <mleise> what do you mean by pause? I think of the debugger there that stops the process, nothing special
2011-06-15T02:04:08  <mleise> What do you think is the real benefit? Is functional code faster to write? Is it often more readable? Or can you mostly just type as you think?
2011-06-15T02:06:31  <sigh> mleise, you are overthinking this... an infinite iterator is bascially a class that has this interface: http://pastebin.com/Gp3eeE9r
2011-06-15T02:08:21  <mleise> ok, I think I get the idea why the language needs to have concepts like this. you cannot use loop over the length of such a 'range', but you could use a foreach that runs forever.
2011-06-15T02:08:29  <sigh> functional programs make different guarentees... for example you know that your functions have no side effects if you put the same thing in you get the same thing out... it also means that the compiler can optimise heavily
2011-06-15T02:09:01  <mleise> ok, so you pass EVERYTHING as parameter to the function
2011-06-15T02:09:02  <sigh> mleise, you can loop over a range
2011-06-15T02:09:27  <sigh> mleise, kind of... but there are ways of hiding global state if you need to
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2011-06-15T02:11:07  <sigh> mleise, you can loop over a range, but sometimes the range is artificial... for example if you want to generate a list of n primes it is simpler to define an infinite list of primes (because hey, primes are infinite) and then only take the elements that you need
2011-06-15T02:11:13  <mleise> It sounds like a matter of taste to me. I could say I use objects so I don't have to pass all parameters to my methods, because the object has an internal state that defines it and all methods may operate on it.
2011-06-15T02:11:53  <sigh> of course it's a matter of taste, it's not like functional languages gives your computer magic powers
2011-06-15T02:12:19  <mleise> Well, exception handling is one thing that I consider a magic moment
2011-06-15T02:12:37  <sigh> heh
2011-06-15T02:14:03  <mleise> sigh: But how can the compiler know how I use the prime number generator? Maybe it needs to cache values, maybe that would comsume too much memory
2011-06-15T02:15:01  <mleise> For me its only kosher if I know how the implementation works. I don't like hitting hidden performance botllenecks.
2011-06-15T02:18:13  <mleise> With the plain old procedural languages I always know where my data is, because I explicitly allocated it one way or another.
2011-06-15T02:18:45  <sigh> fair enough, but that's just because you've worked with procedural languages and learnt their implementation details :P
2011-06-15T02:19:10  <sigh> don't tell me you knew all the magic that happens when you do a malloc without being told
2011-06-15T02:19:55  <mleise> Actually I read about memory allocation on the internet, yes :p
2011-06-15T02:20:31  <mleise> And working with Delphi there was an OpenSource memory manager replacement that was supposed to be faster and also showed memory leaks.
2011-06-15T02:20:33  <sigh> my point was that you had to invest time to learn it
2011-06-15T02:21:16  <sigh> same with other things that are taken for granted like the stack and what actually happens when you call a function
2011-06-15T02:21:35  <mleise> what is there to learn if you just use it? you get a portion of RAM assigned to your app and the pointer is the address.
2011-06-15T02:23:08  <mleise> Ok, the kernel has to find a continuous block of the requested size, but that's about it on the user end I think :p All you want to know is "will I run out of memory"
2011-06-15T02:23:15  <sigh> you don't care about the difference between allocating 1000 small segments vs 1 large segement... what about the performance impact of performing a realloc... are the consequences to allocation and reallocating many times?
2011-06-15T02:23:52  <sigh> mleise, and for a functional language I can say "All you want to know is the result of the function"
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2011-06-15T02:24:05  <sigh> point is that when it comes to optimisation, you have to know the details
2011-06-15T02:24:11  <sigh> that's not unique to functional languages
2011-06-15T02:24:24  <mleise> hmm once you understand the "continuous block" thing you can deduct the implications for realloc and ... yeah malloc is *slow*.
2011-06-15T02:26:33  <mleise> sigh: maybe I would understand the implementation details of Haskel just as well if I used it for years. I'm just alienated by all the different concepts now.
2011-06-15T02:27:02  <sigh> that was my point :P
2011-06-15T02:27:27  <sigh> but for starters don't worry about the implementation details, just worry about correct code :)
2011-06-15T02:27:37  <mleise> good luck with your ants then :)
2011-06-15T02:28:27  <sigh> eh? it's the same way for any language... first you have to have a working program before you can optimise
2011-06-15T02:32:04  <mleise> We have only 500ms. Performance is very important now. An algorithm must scale well with 1000 ants.
2011-06-15T02:32:42  <rabidus> with 1000 ants your battle algorithm is probably sucking hard
2011-06-15T02:32:45  <mleise> O(n²) is practically out :p
2011-06-15T02:32:52  <rabidus> you just could do a russian style attack
2011-06-15T02:32:55  <mleise> lol rabidus
2011-06-15T02:33:17  <sigh> sure, but all you are doing is saying you don't want to work with a language/paradigm you are not familiar with... you aren't really making an argument against any particular language
2011-06-15T02:33:37  <sigh> which is fair enough, but I was never disagreeing with that
2011-06-15T02:34:47  <mleise> ok maybe with a language that is close to the system level it is easier to estimate the cpu time. is that an argument for using C?
2011-06-15T02:35:25  <sigh> why not assembly?
2011-06-15T02:36:49  <sigh> and even then you have don't know what magic system calls are doing
2011-06-15T02:37:05  <mleise> sigh: I just remember something that's hard to do. With no threading we are assumed to keep track of time and return from any executing function if we are running out of time. Can a functional language help here by 'automatically' adding time awareness to all the  code?
2011-06-15T02:39:10  <sigh> mleise, depends on the language how easy that would be... I'm not proficient enough to say
2011-06-15T02:39:11  <mleise> or is it more straight forward, because you would just add a "time remaining" function as a parameter to every other function? in a OOP language that would be kinda paradigm breaking and ugly.
2011-06-15T02:39:49  <sigh> mleise, no you would not add a parameter to every function, that's just as ugly as in a procedural language
2011-06-15T02:40:17  <sigh> hang on
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2011-06-15T02:40:53  <rabidus> ay
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2011-06-15T02:47:59  <sigh> mleise, sorry I'm not sure... haskell has System.Timeout for wraping functions, but I don't know if that works without threads or anything
2011-06-15T02:52:40  <antimatroid> not to self, ice is REALLY slippery on a bike going downhill
2011-06-15T02:54:36  <sigh> ice tends to be slippery regardless of the slope of the hill and your mode of transportation
2011-06-15T02:55:22  <antimatroid> sigh: yes, well, i slid about 15 metres on the road this morning :P
2011-06-15T02:55:56  <antimatroid> luckily I just had time to realise what was happening and it actually didn't hurt, but i wasn't far off sliding out onto another road at the bottom of the hill which could have been quite bad
2011-06-15T02:56:19  <sigh> you didn't realise you were sliding?
2011-06-15T02:57:05  <antimatroid> i did realise
2011-06-15T02:57:21  <antimatroid> i knew i was on ice, but i was moving, best I could do was put a foot down and try to slide the wheels and my feet
2011-06-15T02:57:31  <antimatroid> but i ended up down on my ass anyway, but could have been way worse
2011-06-15T02:57:37  <sigh> yeah
2011-06-15T02:58:04  <sigh> well, that'll learn you to put ice on your roads
2011-06-15T02:59:04  <antimatroid> d;
2011-06-15T03:00:31  <antimatroid> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Bath+St,+Battery+Point+TAS,+Australia&aq=0&sll=-42.902313,147.336617&sspn=0.024237,0.066047&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Bath+St,+Battery+Point+Tasmania,+Australia&ll=-42.894159,147.333403&spn=0.00303,0.008256&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=-42.894167,147.333555&panoid=CACaXubvKKvmnqVhyk7Pkw&cbp=12,294.41,,0,15.85
2011-06-15T03:00:59  <antimatroid> i fell at the end of the hill the car is turning into
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2011-06-15T03:01:58  <sigh> that street doesn't look very safe
2011-06-15T03:02:20  <antimatroid> it's alright when it's not ice at the bottom :P
2011-06-15T03:02:39  <sigh> wow... looking at australian roads looks weird now that I've been driving in the states
2011-06-15T03:02:48  <sigh> the cars are all on the other side!
2011-06-15T03:02:57  <antimatroid> :p
2011-06-15T03:03:05  <antimatroid> i would struggle to drive on the rhs
2011-06-15T03:03:37  <sigh> I keep turning on my wipers when I am trying to indicate :(
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2011-06-15T03:06:10  <mleise> sigh: System.Timeout probably uses a thread, but what I like is this asynchroneous exception stuff, where you can throw exceptions at other threads any time :p
2011-06-15T03:06:54  <mleise> So if pathfinding is slow you can throw an exception at it to finish faster, hehe
2011-06-15T03:07:10  <rabidus> australia and ice ?
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2011-06-15T03:08:56  <mleise> more like tasmania :)
2011-06-15T03:10:01  <antimatroid> mleise: which is australia! :P
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2011-06-15T03:15:50  <mcstar> i dont see no ice on that road...
2011-06-15T03:16:10  <rabidus> lol
2011-06-15T03:16:11  <rabidus> :D
2011-06-15T03:16:21  <mleise> This is my place in december: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Burgstra%C3%9Fe,+Hannover,+Deutschland&aq=0&sll=-42.894167,147.333553&sspn=0.002114,0.00456&g=Bath+St,+Battery+Point+Tasmania,+Australia&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Burgstra%C3%9Fe,+30159+Hannover,+Region+Hannover,+Niedersachsen,+Germany&ll=52.371879,9.732363&spn=0.000874,0.00228&t=h&z=19&layer=c&cbll=52.371764,9.732507&cbp=12,147.04,,0,0&photoid=po-4
2011-06-15T03:17:30  <antimatroid> lol, it gives me an all black screen
2011-06-15T03:17:56  <mleise> yeah, I'm in Nirvana already. They have internet here
2011-06-15T03:17:57  <antimatroid> seet bike!
2011-06-15T03:17:59  <antimatroid> sweet*
2011-06-15T03:18:00  <sigh> ah, me too
2011-06-15T03:18:15  <rabidus> black screen for me too
2011-06-15T03:18:41  <mcstar> hell, my irc client only copies the first line of the link, i cant be bothered to copy it again line by line
2011-06-15T03:18:44  <antimatroid> move the little guy around a little bit
2011-06-15T03:18:46  <antimatroid> fixes it up then
2011-06-15T03:19:07  <antimatroid> mcstar: pidgin!
2011-06-15T03:19:15  <mcstar> thats not console
2011-06-15T03:19:26  <antimatroid> tissue? :P
2011-06-15T03:19:40  <mcstar> you mean...?
2011-06-15T03:19:50  <antimatroid> dw :P
2011-06-15T03:19:54  <mcstar> hehe
2011-06-15T03:20:35  <mcstar> sigh: i realized why did you need the rule that ants trying to move to the same square must die
2011-06-15T03:20:56  <sigh> mcstar, why is that?
2011-06-15T03:21:13  <mcstar> well, otherwise you couldnt update the game-board
2011-06-15T03:21:20  <mcstar> at least not that easily
2011-06-15T03:21:28  <sigh> you could, but yeah... not easily :P
2011-06-15T03:21:28  <mcstar> the moves would be interdependent
2011-06-15T03:21:46  <sigh> a few other options were discussed
2011-06-15T03:21:59  <sigh> but we settled on this
2011-06-15T03:22:15  <mcstar> its simple and effective
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2011-06-15T03:22:58  <antimatroid> i'm a big fan of not having ant id's etc.
2011-06-15T03:23:12  <antimatroid> also mcleopold said something to me about combining iterative closest and damage battle options :|
2011-06-15T03:23:17  <antimatroid> that sounds awful complexity wise
2011-06-15T03:23:28  <antimatroid> and for intuitive understanding
2011-06-15T03:23:36  <mcstar> oh btw to everyone on linux: try the freetype2-infinality font rendering, its great
2011-06-15T03:23:49  <antimatroid> i wont be happy until unicode has greek
2011-06-15T03:23:59  <antimatroid> so i can use it in my source for programs
2011-06-15T03:24:03  <antimatroid> and mathematical relations etc.
2011-06-15T03:24:17  <mleise> ωτf αrε γσμ ταlκιηg αbσμτ?
2011-06-15T03:24:19  <mcstar> its not font-faces
2011-06-15T03:24:20  <antimatroid> and on ma keyboard
2011-06-15T03:24:23  <antimatroid> :P
2011-06-15T03:24:24  <mcstar> its rendering
2011-06-15T03:24:37  <mcstar> best antialiasing and hinting ive ever seen, even in gtk
2011-06-15T03:25:47  <mcstar> antimatroid: you really dont use Mathematica?
2011-06-15T03:26:02  <antimatroid> mcstar: no
2011-06-15T03:26:09  <antimatroid> i mean yes
2011-06-15T03:26:12  <antimatroid> i really don't :P
2011-06-15T03:26:25  <mcstar> interesting, i thought every mathematician on the planet has it
2011-06-15T03:26:27  <mcstar> :D
2011-06-15T03:26:40  <antimatroid> meh, i'm a big fan of open source
2011-06-15T03:26:49  <mcstar> ok, thats understandable
2011-06-15T03:26:49  <mleise> i have wxMaxima
2011-06-15T03:26:50  <antimatroid> mainly because i don't have to pay anything or worry about pirating it
2011-06-15T03:26:56  <mcstar> sage
2011-06-15T03:27:02  <mcstar> im trying to switch
2011-06-15T03:27:16  <antimatroid> meh, i'm happy with normal programming stuff
2011-06-15T03:27:21  <antimatroid> sage is in python anyway yeah?
2011-06-15T03:27:25  <antimatroid> not a huge fan of python :P
2011-06-15T03:27:33  <mcstar> not the whole thing
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2011-06-15T03:27:48  <mcstar> it interfaces my subprograms, and yes, some part are in python
2011-06-15T03:27:48  <antimatroid> once i bother learning haskell well enough, i don't expect people will turn me back to anything but c++ and haskell
2011-06-15T03:27:54  <mcstar> my->many
2011-06-15T03:28:25  <antimatroid> c++ is so close to my perfect language :(
2011-06-15T03:28:40  <mcstar> it cant be the choice for everything
2011-06-15T03:29:03  <mcstar> mathematica is very good for prototyping, i mean really very good
2011-06-15T03:29:03  <mleise> "use the right tool for the problem"? never!
2011-06-15T03:29:09  <antimatroid> i have fairly acute interests that require programming :P
2011-06-15T03:29:17  <antimatroid> they mostly require squeezing the most out computationally
2011-06-15T03:29:39  <mleise> mcstar: I like JavaScript and the HTML canvas for prototyping :p
2011-06-15T03:29:59  <mcstar> i mean more like scientific prototyping
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2011-06-15T03:30:35  <antimatroid> i do theory stuff other than ai and my games stuff
2011-06-15T03:30:56  <rabidus> theory sucks :p
2011-06-15T03:31:00  <antimatroid> ergh :P
2011-06-15T03:31:02  <antimatroid> applied sucks!
2011-06-15T03:31:04  <mcstar> hey, im not trying to converty anyone or wtf, just saying that those CAS has its many applications, and im surprised at you antimatroid that you dont use one
2011-06-15T03:31:19  <antimatroid> applied is too messy for my liking, and I understand stuff better if I build from the bottom up
2011-06-15T03:31:25  <antimatroid> rather than top to bottom
2011-06-15T03:31:45  <antimatroid> mcstar: yeah, sorry, I'm just saying why I haven't used it :P
2011-06-15T03:31:54  <antimatroid> i'm sure there'll come a time where I probably find it useful
2011-06-15T03:32:21  <mcstar> one upside for whatever work you do, is the notebook frontend
2011-06-15T03:32:32  <mcstar> either in mma or in sage
2011-06-15T03:32:44  <mcstar> in sage i can inline latex code
2011-06-15T03:33:10  <mcstar> or any other scripting i would like for that matter
2011-06-15T03:33:27  <mcstar> lets say python/bash/whatever interface they made, even mathematica in sage
2011-06-15T03:34:03  <mcstar> thats very handy, you can see the input with the output, and the whole notebook is saved wo explicit saving
2011-06-15T03:34:09  <mcstar> you can publish it...
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2011-06-15T03:34:52  <mcstar> i guess you have to try it to understand how convenient that is
2011-06-15T03:36:54  <antimatroid> yeah
2011-06-15T03:37:03  <antimatroid> i've added LaTeX functions to my games library
2011-06-15T03:37:15  <antimatroid> so i don't have to go through the horror of manually formatting games
2011-06-15T03:37:51  <mcstar> hey, can i see your house?
2011-06-15T03:38:51  <antimatroid> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Bath+St,+Battery+Point+TAS,+Australia&aq=0&sll=-42.902313,147.336617&sspn=0.024237,0.066047&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Bath+St,+Battery+Point+Tasmania,+Australia&ll=-42.894159,147.333403&spn=0.00303,0.008256&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=-42.894167,147.333555&panoid=CACaXubvKKvmnqVhyk7Pkw&cbp=12,294.41,,0,15.85
2011-06-15T03:38:59  <antimatroid> i still live with my father, so not my house :P
2011-06-15T03:39:07  <antimatroid> the one on the left
2011-06-15T03:39:37  <mcstar> in the corner?
2011-06-15T03:40:01  <antimatroid> nah, the one with the hedge
2011-06-15T03:40:08  <antimatroid> the hedge blocked it more from front on
2011-06-15T03:40:28  <aerique> near the beach, sweet
2011-06-15T03:40:33  <antimatroid> oh wait
2011-06-15T03:40:39  <antimatroid> i don't think i copied the link properly :P
2011-06-15T03:40:55  <aerique> mcstar: I'm using these statements too muffle warnings: https://github.com/aichallenge/aichallenge/commit/ffdf138f6cf3d8c54e81cfd04689ff9f5bc47c17
2011-06-15T03:40:58  <mcstar> lol, coming down from up the street, theres a cyclist, driving in the intersection
2011-06-15T03:41:02  <mcstar> is that you?
2011-06-15T03:41:10  <antimatroid> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Tower+Rd,+New+Town+TAS,+Australia&aq=0&sll=-42.903665,147.327465&sspn=0.006091,0.016512&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Tower+Rd,+New+Town+Tasmania+7008,+Australia&ll=-42.852986,147.302628&spn=0.003048,0.008256&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=-42.85301,147.302472&panoid=EkaFXp2hCfJZ-BbvVyrqCA&cbp=12,149.53,,0,13.16
2011-06-15T03:41:11  <aerique> mcstar: ran into the same problems as you when I started working on a real bot
2011-06-15T03:42:38  <mcstar> too bad, you have some variables that get assigned functions at runtime?
2011-06-15T03:42:48  <antimatroid> mcstar: my house wasn't in the first link, i failed to copy it :P
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2011-06-15T03:43:15  <mcstar> i was returned a lambda with closure, and thats why sbcl was giving me warnings
2011-06-15T03:43:52  <mcstar> returned->returning
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2011-06-15T03:47:37  <aerique> mcstar: no, not yet anyway
2011-06-15T03:47:51  <mcstar> then why the warnings?
2011-06-15T03:48:00  <aerique> mcstar: SBCL could really use a more uniform (and actually working) way of controlling these warnings
2011-06-15T03:48:38  <aerique> mcstar: optimisation declartions in some functions and a 3rd-party lib
2011-06-15T03:49:39  <mcstar> oh, yeah sweet optimization :D
2011-06-15T03:49:42  <aerique> antimatroid: cool, you've got a shag bay nearby :)
2011-06-15T03:49:54  <antimatroid> haha yeah, you can go camping there
2011-06-15T03:49:59  <antimatroid> but there's way cooler places up the east coast
2011-06-15T03:50:03  <mcstar> those can really give a couple of page warnings
2011-06-15T03:50:28  <mcstar> 110 swanston road?
2011-06-15T03:50:49  <antimatroid> me?
2011-06-15T03:50:53  <antimatroid> nope
2011-06-15T03:50:57  <mcstar> argh
2011-06-15T03:51:02  <antimatroid> i'm in tower road :P
2011-06-15T03:51:09  <antimatroid> http://www.google.com.au/search?q=wineglass+bay&hl=en&biw=1920&bih=897&prmd=ivnscm&source=lnms&tbm=isch&ei=SGT4TbfBH4_EvgP-hZ2DDA&sa=X&oi=mode_link&ct=mode&cd=2&sqi=2&ved=0CBsQ_AUoAQ that's up the east coast of tassie
2011-06-15T03:51:23  <antimatroid> you have to walk for like an hour from any parking over the saddle of a mountain
2011-06-15T03:51:45  <antimatroid> but there's always tourists there, so cooler places to go if you want to go camping/drinking
2011-06-15T03:53:00  <antimatroid> the water looks nice, but even on a hot day it's damn cold!
2011-06-15T03:53:56  <mcstar> oh, a marina
2011-06-15T03:54:15  <aerique> does it come straight from antarctica?
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2011-06-15T03:54:55  <antimatroid> http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&source=s_q&hl=en&geocode=&q=Wineglass+Bay,+Freycinet,+Tasmania,+Australia&aq=2&sll=-42.881903,147.323815&sspn=0.775854,2.113495&ie=UTF8&hq=&hnear=Freycinet+Tasmania,+Australia&ll=-42.212754,148.332596&spn=0.196053,0.528374&t=h&z=12
2011-06-15T03:55:09  <antimatroid> it goes out to the ocean, but it's not the south end
2011-06-15T03:57:16  <mcstar> its looks just like miami
2011-06-15T03:57:19  <mcstar> -s
2011-06-15T03:57:34  <mcstar> (i dont know why i make so many spelling mistakes)
2011-06-15T03:58:22  <antimatroid> tassie is way cooler :P
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2011-06-15T03:59:32  <mcstar> in the literal sense of the word
2011-06-15T04:00:02  <mcstar> well, looks very nice i give you that
2011-06-15T04:00:38  <mcstar> the only beauty where i live is a nice sunset, and a small pine forest
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2011-06-15T04:13:13  <mcstar> i one downside of comedey central is: the comedist only says "and here we are on beautiful time square", and she gets applauded, like she told the most hilarious joke in the century
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2011-06-15T04:21:13  <sir_macelon> hi
2011-06-15T04:21:24  <rabidus> hi
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2011-06-15T05:01:24  <guyverthree> alrighty guys
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2011-06-15T05:07:26  <aerique> The Java and CL runtimes are really in eachother's way at times.  Is it known yet how much memory the official servers will have?  I don't think we should ever have maps with more than 8 players.
2011-06-15T05:08:07  <antimatroid> we're saying you will have at least 1gb of memory each
2011-06-15T05:08:11  <antimatroid> (i think)
2011-06-15T05:08:24  <aerique> that's quite a lot
2011-06-15T05:08:38  <antimatroid> although i'm a bit worried about our ability to limit a bots memory usagr
2011-06-15T05:08:54  <antimatroid> otherwise you hope you get to start up first then take up all the memory and don't release it :P
2011-06-15T05:08:59  <aerique> well the jail's doing a pretty good job at times :)
2011-06-15T05:09:12  <antimatroid> i have no idea about what the jail even is :P
2011-06-15T05:09:27  <boegel> cool, seems like you guys are close to a new open contest
2011-06-15T05:10:20  <antimatroid> boegel: welcome to the party :P
2011-06-15T05:10:25  <antimatroid> have you seen the beta server?
2011-06-15T05:17:02  <boegel> I have
2011-06-15T05:17:17  <boegel> don't have time right now to give it a shot, but I'll try and find some time
2011-06-15T05:17:34  <boegel> I will be using Haskell, so I might need to look into a Haskell starters package first
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2011-06-15T05:22:25  <dr-> boring ... basic bfs makes me timeout when i have more than 10 ants in python ...
2011-06-15T05:22:45  <antimatroid> dr-: what are you doing?
2011-06-15T05:23:05  <antimatroid> also, python is going to be pretty slow for this :P
2011-06-15T05:23:25  <dr-> yeah I know, but I'm pretty good with python :/
2011-06-15T05:24:07  <antimatroid> the c++ bot is pretty awesome though :P
2011-06-15T05:24:20  <dr-> you built it ? :p
2011-06-15T05:24:24  <antimatroid> yes
2011-06-15T05:24:32  <dr-> that's why ... ;)
2011-06-15T05:24:36  <antimatroid> :P
2011-06-15T05:24:58  <dr-> last time, just to compare c++ and python, I made a loop from 1 to 1000000 (maybe more zeros)
2011-06-15T05:25:17  <dr-> c++ took less than 1 sec and python 12sec
2011-06-15T05:25:18  <mleise> antimatroid: C++ is boring to advertise. Don't you have a more exotic language?
2011-06-15T05:25:30  <antimatroid> D
2011-06-15T05:25:43  <mleise> :D definitly my way
2011-06-15T05:25:51  <antimatroid> i thought you might like that :P
2011-06-15T05:25:55  <dr-> I'm just bored because I don't want not to use python just because it's slow
2011-06-15T05:26:14  <antimatroid> dr-: take a look at the c++ bot, it's pretty solid
2011-06-15T05:26:24  <antimatroid> it's built on the structure of my pw bot
2011-06-15T05:27:00  <dr-> okay, i'll take a look
2011-06-15T05:27:04  <antimatroid> :)
2011-06-15T05:27:10  <antimatroid> converting people one at a time
2011-06-15T05:27:21  <mleise> I need to do something about that.
2011-06-15T05:28:26  <mleise> Oh look at this: http://www.digitalmars.com/d/2.0/cpptod.html
2011-06-15T05:31:17  <antimatroid> mleise: does it let me do any of the following, and if so which... overload anything as an operator, overload operator precedence, have template functions that are declared in the .h equivalent and defined in the .cc equivalent, treat functions as parameters, a type system more like haskells, with type classes etc. I would love type variables in c++ too
2011-06-15T05:31:29  <antimatroid> those are my complaints about c++
2011-06-15T05:31:43  <mcstar> NUMPY
2011-06-15T05:31:57  <mcstar> dr-: cant be 12 sec sorry
2011-06-15T05:33:59  <mcstar> antimatroid: that all can be done in cl as fas as i know
2011-06-15T05:34:08  <mcstar> fas->far
2011-06-15T05:34:18  <antimatroid> how gross is the syntax?
2011-06-15T05:34:25  <mcstar> no syntax
2011-06-15T05:34:26  <antimatroid> i'm a big fan of most of the c++ syntax
2011-06-15T05:34:30  <mcstar> (function arguments)
2011-06-15T05:34:42  <mcstar> even -,+ is a functions
2011-06-15T05:34:45  <mcstar> -s
2011-06-15T05:34:47  <mcstar> no operators
2011-06-15T05:34:58  <antimatroid> operators are functions silly :P
2011-06-15T05:35:01  <mcstar> no
2011-06-15T05:35:09  <antimatroid> mathematically speaking :P
2011-06-15T05:35:11  <mcstar> operators are built-ins
2011-06-15T05:35:31  <mcstar> mathematically speaking, not strictly
2011-06-15T05:35:38  <antimatroid> pretty much
2011-06-15T05:35:40  <mleise> antimatroid: overloading anything as an operator? - no. that's horrible to check for the lexer. The language is supposed to be easily parsable. that also answers the operator precedence question *g*
2011-06-15T05:35:59  <mcstar> ok, antimatroid do you consider if a function?
2011-06-15T05:36:03  <antimatroid> mleise: meh, i don't care about compile time :P
2011-06-15T05:36:04  <mleise> antimatroid: there is no preprocessor or .h files.
2011-06-15T05:36:23  <antimatroid> hmmm, okay
2011-06-15T05:36:34  <mleise> antimatroid: It is also meant to be easier for tools like IDEs to figure out the syntax.
2011-06-15T05:36:57  <antimatroid> meh, i don't care that much about syntax highlighting, it's nice but doesn't need to be perfect
2011-06-15T05:37:07  <antimatroid> i'm much more interested in having flexibility with my code
2011-06-15T05:37:57  <mleise> antimatroid: You get very nice template functionality which is very flexible. Everything you imagine could be calculated at compile time can be done so I think.
2011-06-15T05:38:00  <antimatroid> mleise: I'd be willing to have a few exceptions like . for access, but c++ is really restrictive about which operators you can overload
2011-06-15T05:38:25  <mcstar> hehe, lisp has accessor functions
2011-06-15T05:38:29  <mcstar> no need for .
2011-06-15T05:38:47  <mleise> functions as parameters: definitly yes! also lazily evaluated arguments in general, which is nice for logging complex expressions for example
2011-06-15T05:38:53  <antimatroid> i think i need to look at lisp
2011-06-15T05:39:15  <mcstar> good idea, pls do, ill find a nice article i read
2011-06-15T05:39:16  <mleise> not sure what a type class is :-(
2011-06-15T05:40:27  <antimatroid> mleise: it's a set of types
2011-06-15T05:40:47  <antimatroid> like in haskell they have Ord, which is the set of all types which can be ordered (totally?)
2011-06-15T05:41:10  <antimatroid> and then you can write functions that are somewhat like templates using type classes, so you enforce some kind of structure on the "generic" type
2011-06-15T05:41:22  <antimatroid> jmcarthur would probably kill me for some of that wording :P
2011-06-15T05:42:29  <mcstar> i found it: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp/
2011-06-15T05:42:32  <dr-> mcstar > try this (a loop from 0 to 100000000) with python (without psyco) and c++
2011-06-15T05:42:53  <dr-> time command give me 9.7s and 0.2s
2011-06-15T05:43:03  <mcstar> you wrote 1e6 before
2011-06-15T05:43:29  <dr-> I wrote 12sec, not far from 9sec ;)
2011-06-15T05:43:42  <mcstar> but this is 1e8
2011-06-15T05:43:49  <mcstar> thats a factor of 100
2011-06-15T05:43:52  <mleise> antimatroid: I don't think this exists in D. You can check a template argument with isIntegral(T) so you can limit your template to that class of types, yes.
2011-06-15T05:44:11  <mcstar> dr-: but ill try, im interested
2011-06-15T05:44:30  <antimatroid> haskell has by far the best type system of the very few languages i have ever looked at
2011-06-15T05:45:30  <antimatroid> Say one had a template T, I would like T to be like a variable, so i could call something like if(T == string)
2011-06-15T05:45:58  <mleise> I think both Delphi and Java understand Classes as objects of their own right and you can limit gemeric types in Delphi to descendants of a certain class.
2011-06-15T05:46:16  <antimatroid> Java can go and die :)
2011-06-15T05:46:49  <mcstar> lisp has multiple dispatch, can specialize any arguments, has a sophicticated precedence ordering, that you can tweak
2011-06-15T05:46:57  <mcstar> there are before, after, around methods
2011-06-15T05:47:56  <mleise> In D you have in and out blocks to check the input and output of a function, too.
2011-06-15T05:48:23  <mcstar> no, thats not it
2011-06-15T05:48:43  <mcstar> it changes the precedence of type dispatch
2011-06-15T05:49:02  <mcstar> but of course i dont know any D
2011-06-15T05:51:42  <mleise> and I don't know what the precedence of type dispatch is :p
2011-06-15T05:53:56  <mcstar> you can have a method, that specializes its arguments for classes
2011-06-15T05:54:09  <mcstar> the system must have a way, to call the correct method
2011-06-15T05:54:29  <mcstar> you see, theres an ambiguity, that must be resolved
2011-06-15T05:54:31  <mleise> mcstar: are you talking overloaded methods?
2011-06-15T05:54:34  <mcstar> thats dispatch precedence
2011-06-15T05:54:44  <mcstar> i dont talk overloaded
2011-06-15T05:54:49  <mcstar> hehe, thats cpp
2011-06-15T05:54:57  <mleise> yes :p
2011-06-15T05:55:03  <mleise> my world is too small
2011-06-15T05:55:05  <mcstar> but some like it, yes
2011-06-15T05:56:13  <mleise> is it one class with ambiguous methods or one method that works on many classes?
2011-06-15T05:57:14  <mcstar> you see, in lisp, classes dont own methods, a function that you want specialize in its types, is called a method
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2011-06-15T05:57:27  <mcstar> so naturally when you deal with classes you also deal with methods
2011-06-15T05:57:52  <mcstar> and methods can have multiple parameters, in fact a whole lambda list
2011-06-15T05:58:13  <mleise> ah lisp has dynamic types so it is not necessary to have a strict binding of methods and classes
2011-06-15T05:58:18  <mcstar> so the correct way is to say, many methods on many classes
2011-06-15T05:58:45  <mcstar> well, the class is itself a type
2011-06-15T05:58:57  <mcstar> and every object in lisp belongs to a class
2011-06-15T05:59:03  <mcstar> the topmost superclass is t
2011-06-15T05:59:11  <mcstar> the true value
2011-06-15T05:59:32  <mleise> wait... the top CLASS is 'true' ?!
2011-06-15T05:59:47  <antimatroid> what, please tell me D and lisp allow overloading of function names?
2011-06-15T05:59:50  <antimatroid> i would die without that
2011-06-15T05:59:57  <mcstar> dynamic typing only means that a certain lexical veriable can take any kind of value of any types
2011-06-15T06:00:13  <mcstar> its much more than simple overlaoding
2011-06-15T06:00:23  <mcstar> this is what im trying to tell
2011-06-15T06:00:36  <mcstar> pls antimatroid take a look at the link, its enlightening
2011-06-15T06:00:47  <mleise> antimatroid: Sure, overloading is supported
2011-06-15T06:00:53  <antimatroid> mcstar: i got part way through then distracted by reddit :P
2011-06-15T06:01:01  <mcstar> damn reddit
2011-06-15T06:02:37  <mleise> mcstar: I never used any other languages than the procedural / OOP types. Except for JavaScript, but even then I write mostly OOP. I wonder why it never happened that I beheld the glory of functional languages :p.
2011-06-15T06:03:39  <mcstar> im writing my second project(this game and the engine) in oop style
2011-06-15T06:03:44  <mcstar> actually oop+functional
2011-06-15T06:04:04  <mcstar> the first one was an opengl mandelbrot viewer in cpp
2011-06-15T06:04:19  <mcstar> so, im really a novice in oop
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2011-06-15T06:05:16  <mcstar> and lisp is not functional
2011-06-15T06:05:22  <mleise> CRCs are something I often recall for OOP: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Class-responsibility-collaboration_card
2011-06-15T06:05:23  <mcstar> its multi-paradigm
2011-06-15T06:05:33  <mcstar> choose what fits your problem
2011-06-15T06:05:55  <mleise> Basically you think of a class in terms of "what is it responsible for" and "who does it collaberate with"
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2011-06-15T06:06:45  <mcstar> well, i always find it useful to draw the structure of anything im dealing with
2011-06-15T06:06:54  <mleise> hmm, but lisp has its focus on functional, like D has a focus on imerative even if there are functional parts
2011-06-15T06:07:07  <mcstar> no
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2011-06-15T06:07:15  <mcstar> it is advised, though
2011-06-15T06:07:23  <mcstar> but not functional per say
2011-06-15T06:07:37  <mcstar> you have powerful global variablews
2011-06-15T06:07:41  <mleise> ok, its just that you see lisp on the wikipedia page for functional languages
2011-06-15T06:08:01  <mcstar> the global variables are called special, because they are really dynamic variables
2011-06-15T06:08:03  <mcstar> not lexical
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2011-06-15T06:08:52  <mcstar> since functions are first class objects, yes, its more functional than C
2011-06-15T06:09:55  <mleise> now I will have a look at this dispatch thing you talked about. may the web enlighten me
2011-06-15T06:10:25  <mcstar> search for CLOS common lisp object system
2011-06-15T06:11:01  <smiley1983> tracing paths with circular brushes for mapgen with rounded ends: http://ants.zeroviz.us/exvYM/
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2011-06-15T06:14:33  <Zaphus> Looks like it's set up for some blocking fun :-)
2011-06-15T06:14:58  <mcstar> one of the most annyoing things is blocking
2011-06-15T06:15:07  <rabidus> working on it :)
2011-06-15T06:15:17  <mcstar> i hate when nubs block me in UrbanTerror
2011-06-15T06:16:42  <mleise> mcstar: This made it clear to me: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiple_dispatch#Common_Lisp
2011-06-15T06:17:10  <mleise> It is also a good example where you know you could not have done that better in OOP
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2011-06-15T06:18:39  <mcstar> i dont know what other languages have this concept too
2011-06-15T06:18:39  <mleise> mcstar: Some FPS have soft collisions for teammates, so you get pushed out of them slowly when you are standing in them, but you never get blocked
2011-06-15T06:19:22  <mleise> Well with templates you can emulate it. But it doesn't feel at home then.
2011-06-15T06:19:28  <mcstar> blocking in the sense we use is when a nub tries to rape you, so by doing this blocks the way you otherwise want to go
2011-06-15T06:20:02  <mcstar> for example im running away bleeding from the enemy, and the nub comes right at you, killing us both
2011-06-15T06:20:34  <mcstar> or, im sniping and i have to dodge the enemy bullet reall fast, and a nub decides to snipe from right next to me, blockiing my dodge
2011-06-15T06:22:31  <mcstar> but the nice thing in lisp, is that you dont have to modify the compiler to add your own things
2011-06-15T06:22:42  <mleise> yeah I know these situations. and you don't see what happens around you in scoped mode
2011-06-15T06:22:52  <mcstar> yes, exactly
2011-06-15T06:23:34  <mcstar> for example if i wanted to add oop to the language, i could do so
2011-06-15T06:23:36  <mleise> mcstar: lisp is not scheme. what additions do you mean
2011-06-15T06:23:53  <mcstar> there are real macros
2011-06-15T06:24:03  <mcstar> i dont have to rewrite the compiler, or interpreter
2011-06-15T06:24:16  <mcstar> the languge is designed to modify code
2011-06-15T06:24:30  <mleise> ah the 'code is data' concept, yes
2011-06-15T06:24:37  <mcstar> what do you mean lisp is not scheme?
2011-06-15T06:24:48  <mcstar> i dont know scheme, but cant be that different
2011-06-15T06:25:07  <mcstar> oh, and in lisp a symbol can have a property list
2011-06-15T06:25:32  <mcstar> for example you can have a function value or a common value assigned to it
2011-06-15T06:26:01  <mcstar> and as the plist suggests, other thigs too(but im not versed in that yet)
2011-06-15T06:27:39  <mleise> i once watched a video where someone showed how in scheme you basically build up your own language
2011-06-15T06:27:58  <mcstar> well thats at least as true for common lisp
2011-06-15T06:28:17  <mcstar> cl derived from an early version of scheme
2011-06-15T06:28:46  <mcstar> and they defined production standard functionality for it in an ansi standard
2011-06-15T06:29:01  <mcstar> scheme remained academic somewhat
2011-06-15T06:31:17  <mleise> I know that Halo 1 used LISP for the AI :-) That was the first time I heard of it
2011-06-15T06:31:50  <mcstar> never played halo
2011-06-15T06:31:59  <mleise> And people went like "I don't know why they used that script language in a game. It is more something for scientific tasks"
2011-06-15T06:32:06  <mcstar> hehe
2011-06-15T06:32:19  <mcstar> lisp is NOT scripting language
2011-06-15T06:32:26  <mcstar> it compiles to machine code
2011-06-15T06:32:30  <mcstar> every time
2011-06-15T06:32:35  <mcstar> at least sbcl does this
2011-06-15T06:33:03  <mleise> They probably interpreted lisp through a c++ library, but I don't know
2011-06-15T06:33:08  <mcstar> btw im sure u are aware that lisp was associated with ai from their beginnings
2011-06-15T06:34:29  <mcstar> i started watching sicp from mit, it is rally educational
2011-06-15T06:34:42  <mleise> yes, I'm somewhat aware of this. haven't heard of it in other contexts
2011-06-15T06:34:43  <mcstar> they do amazing things with so few constructs
2011-06-15T06:35:28  <mcstar> there are big commercial applications written in lisp, or at least were written in it
2011-06-15T06:35:51  <mcstar> but i can only say that you have to try it, then see it for yourself
2011-06-15T06:35:52  <mleise> mcstar: Do you think the execution speed of a lisp program can compare to c++?
2011-06-15T06:36:02  <mcstar> they say definitely yes
2011-06-15T06:36:22  <aerique> depends on the problem and it'll take you some work though
2011-06-15T06:36:31  <guyverthree> it can
2011-06-15T06:36:40  <mleise> i wonder how. you can redefine the language have dynamic types and resulting dispatches all over the place...
2011-06-15T06:36:46  <mcstar> you only have to add this to your functions (declare (type sometype something))
2011-06-15T06:36:52  <mcstar> then optimize
2011-06-15T06:37:01  <guyverthree> depending on the codding style anyhting badly coded can be coded better in a SLOWER lanugage
2011-06-15T06:37:02  <mcstar> and if your lucky youre done :D
2011-06-15T06:37:25  <aerique> the resulting code will probably start to look like c++ as well
2011-06-15T06:37:34  <mleise> lol
2011-06-15T06:37:54  <mcstar> you profile, see whats slow, and potimize that
2011-06-15T06:38:09  <mcstar> btw you can instantly disassemble anthing to machine instructions
2011-06-15T06:38:28  <mcstar> but i guess thats implementation dependent
2011-06-15T06:38:35  <mleise> you can profile lisp? are there special profilers for it or do you use gprof & co.?
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2011-06-15T06:38:48  <mcstar> implementation provides it
2011-06-15T06:38:54  <aerique> mleise: depends on implementation again, but we're usually talking SBCL
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2011-06-15T06:39:16  <mcstar> what i see, is when speed matters use sbcl
2011-06-15T06:39:25  <mcstar> or commercial implementations
2011-06-15T06:39:30  <mcstar> there are a few
2011-06-15T06:39:36  <aerique> mleise: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/#Statistical-Profiler
2011-06-15T06:40:23  <mcstar> what is very different from cpp is the development process
2011-06-15T06:40:51  <mcstar> you can have a running instance of your program when you redefine something
2011-06-15T06:41:11  <mcstar> couple this to slime, and you have the perfect environment
2011-06-15T06:41:28  <mcstar> if only other languages could do this
2011-06-15T06:41:29  <aerique> mcstar: i promised mcleopold to make a video of this for ants
2011-06-15T06:41:34  <mcstar> hehe
2011-06-15T06:41:36  <mleise> I like that very much. Recompiling C++ is relatively slow
2011-06-15T06:41:37  <mcstar> would be nice
2011-06-15T06:41:39  <antimatroid> smiley1983: nice, i'd pick a radius that doesn't have that single tip
2011-06-15T06:41:41  <antimatroid> if that makes sense
2011-06-15T06:42:15  <mleise> a single out-standing square in each compass direction, yes
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2011-06-15T06:42:55  <aerique> time to add some pathfinding to my bot
2011-06-15T06:43:03  <mleise> I'm writing a visual debugger this time that a client can connect to and draw stuff into
2011-06-15T06:43:10  <mcstar> oh, and if you have problems, theres a nice guy called Xach on #lisp who answers your questions
2011-06-15T06:43:36  <mcstar> aerique: ist he sweet?
2011-06-15T06:43:37  <antimatroid> dr-: how's my bot? :P
2011-06-15T06:43:54  <mleise> I won't use this bracket-mess-language for good ^^. But I want to know on what I'm missing out.
2011-06-15T06:44:15  <aerique> mcstar: yeah, he'll be happy to be promoted like that ;-)
2011-06-15T06:44:31  <mcstar> (parentheses)
2011-06-15T06:45:04  <mcstar> mleise: your missing on the nicest syntax ever
2011-06-15T06:45:48  <mcstar> of course not everything is made of sugarcake
2011-06-15T06:46:01  <smiley1983> antimatroid: yes, it makes sense :) currently the radius is set automatically based on the size of the maze cells, but it could be reduced a little to make the result rounder.
2011-06-15T06:46:10  <mcstar> for example i still have problems with debugging
2011-06-15T06:47:11  <mcstar> aerique: pathfinding is the next on my todo list
2011-06-15T06:47:38  <mleise> who can I copy the code from when you are both done? :p
2011-06-15T06:48:04  <mcstar> well, im doing it with collaboration with the military
2011-06-15T06:48:13  <mcstar> in col...
2011-06-15T06:48:45  <mleise> that means what?
2011-06-15T06:48:59  <mcstar> in collaboration instead of with
2011-06-15T06:49:13  <mcstar> means nothing im kidding, as if my code was top secret
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2011-06-15T06:49:57  <mleise> ah, language barriers I guess. some jokes just don't end up right on my end :p
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2011-06-15T06:50:05  <mcstar> im not planning on doing any sophisticated thing, i think you can come up with your own before me anyway
2011-06-15T06:50:48  <mcstar> ill have them delivered by UPS if thats better
2011-06-15T06:51:07  <mleise> i wonder if the paths we calculate can be reused somehow, but caching paths from all squares to all squares is definitly not possible
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2011-06-15T06:51:43  <mcstar> i cant code and talk
2011-06-15T06:51:51  <mcstar> i must say goodbye now
2011-06-15T06:51:59  <mcstar> bb
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2011-06-15T06:52:05  <antimatroid> damn
2011-06-15T06:52:07  <mleise> rows:=256, cols:=256 -> 2^32 entries
2011-06-15T06:52:12  <antimatroid> were you talking about ants again?
2011-06-15T06:52:25  <mleise> sorry, is that wrong?
2011-06-15T06:52:35  <antimatroid> mcstar left right as i was about to get into the convo
2011-06-15T06:52:53  <antimatroid> aerique: have you seen my a* example with multiple targets?
2011-06-15T06:53:54  <antimatroid> http://pastebin.com/6Dh9Jdxg the numbers are the order in which locations will be taken off the search queue, any .'s adjacent to a number are going to be currently in the search queue
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2011-06-15T06:55:07  <antimatroid> it's going to be pretty painfully inefficient with LOTS of targets though
2011-06-15T06:55:57  <antimatroid> ergh, you can also probably swap which direction you search to minimise the number of "targets", as h(x) is going to be like o(n)
2011-06-15T06:56:08  <antimatroid> excuse my terrible understanding of complexity crap :P
2011-06-15T06:57:16  <smiley1983> antimatroid: rounding the ends meant chaging one character: http://ants.zeroviz.us/SZW16/ :)
2011-06-15T06:57:36  <antimatroid> much nicer ;)
2011-06-15T06:57:55  <antimatroid> that's a sweet map
2011-06-15T06:58:03  <antimatroid> middle battle ground, then tunnels on the edges
2011-06-15T06:58:23  <smiley1983> however, I think the maze generator should be ditched entirely in favour of one based entirely on random walks
2011-06-15T06:58:40  <antimatroid> why not have both?
2011-06-15T06:58:53  <antimatroid> i'm a big fan of variation with maps
2011-06-15T06:58:55  <smiley1983> the maps I'm posting are then exceptions, not the rules among the mazes :)
2011-06-15T06:58:56  <antimatroid> provided they're symmetric
2011-06-15T06:59:04  <smiley1983> *the
2011-06-15T07:00:09  <antimatroid> that is my favourite map i've seen so far
2011-06-15T07:00:11  <antimatroid> it's perfect
2011-06-15T07:00:17  <smiley1983> there are several unfortunate things about the maze generator for actual games: the algorithm it's based on tends toward long boring dead ends and a complete absence of loops
2011-06-15T07:00:24  <antimatroid> could maybe be bigger :P
2011-06-15T07:00:29  <smiley1983> adding some random walks can help with this
2011-06-15T07:00:36  <smiley1983> that's a 120x120 map, I think
2011-06-15T07:00:47  <antimatroid> i made maze maps by accident when i was making maps
2011-06-15T07:00:49  <smiley1983> with a grain size of 12, so based on a 10x10 maze
2011-06-15T07:01:02  <antimatroid> i switched some paramaters and tada, i accidentally had myself maze maps
2011-06-15T07:01:04  <antimatroid> it was quite funny
2011-06-15T07:01:28  <antimatroid> it made sense once one thought about it, but it was still a surprise at the time :P
2011-06-15T07:01:40  <smiley1983> :) yes, mazes are quite beautifully simple and yet there's so much variation :)
2011-06-15T07:01:45  <antimatroid> i guess it doesn't need to be larger
2011-06-15T07:01:54  <antimatroid> smaller even
2011-06-15T07:02:00  <antimatroid> 120x120 isn't going to be feasible
2011-06-15T07:02:10  <smiley1983> there's another problem with the maze maps in symmetric rotation:
2011-06-15T07:02:44  <smiley1983> it has a very strong tendency to create maps which look like a symbol with a bad and politically sensitive past
2011-06-15T07:02:57  <antimatroid> meh?
2011-06-15T07:02:57  <mleise> lol, I didn't want to mention it
2011-06-15T07:03:17  <smiley1983> yes, I've been carefully filtering it out of any maps I post
2011-06-15T07:03:20  <mleise> I was imagining this map gen in auto run mode on the server and me waiting for the s...
2011-06-15T07:03:28  <smiley1983> but the generator makes them, mostly
2011-06-15T07:03:40  <antimatroid> can i see one?
2011-06-15T07:03:42  <Zaphus> still too soon ?   ~75 years
2011-06-15T07:03:50  <smiley1983> so it cannot be used
2011-06-15T07:03:52  <smiley1983> if you run the code yourself :)
2011-06-15T07:03:53  <antimatroid> not to mention the symbol has been used for other things
2011-06-15T07:04:28  <mleise> http://failblog.org/2008/08/17/bbq-design-fail/
2011-06-15T07:04:36  <mleise> for bbqs?
2011-06-15T07:04:41  <smiley1983> it's a problem with symmetric rotation generally, but maps based on random walks will reduce the tendency
2011-06-15T07:04:41  <antimatroid> you guys have seen the 2012 olympic logo right?
2011-06-15T07:04:56  <antimatroid> smiley1983: have you done these maps with 8 ants yet?
2011-06-15T07:05:33  <antimatroid> http://whatisthepyramid.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/2012_logo_white_385x450.jpg
2011-06-15T07:05:49  <smiley1983> yes, but it breaks food generation even with food=random
2011-06-15T07:06:18  <mleise> antimatroid: there is neither a swastica nor an SS tag -.-
2011-06-15T07:06:42  <Zaphus> I like that they seem to have got a map of Australia in there (although Tassie has gone wandering)
2011-06-15T07:06:54  <antimatroid> mleise: it looks like lisa simpson giving a blowjob
2011-06-15T07:06:57  <antimatroid> cannot unsee
2011-06-15T07:07:26  <mleise> antimatroid: oh no, now i see it too
2011-06-15T07:07:43  <antimatroid> it's perfect
2011-06-15T07:08:17  <antimatroid> you can fold up the image of the queen on our $5 notes to make it look like a blowjob too
2011-06-15T07:08:23  <antimatroid> Zaphus: you would know this?
2011-06-15T07:09:44  <antimatroid> http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs24/f/2007/314/b/1/Secret_Penis_On_Aussie_Money_by_odin123.jpg
2011-06-15T07:09:57  <antimatroid> if you fold it over further down it looks more like a mouth giving it rather than a fish
2011-06-15T07:13:34  <antimatroid> mleise: my friend had the best comeback "its actually a lot harder to see '2012' in that"
2011-06-15T07:20:04  <aerique> antimatroid: sorry, was away for lunch.  no, hadn't seen your a* stuff before.  i'm playing with h(x) weights now
2011-06-15T07:20:35  <antimatroid> aerique: the h(x) function there is a big costly, h(x) = min_T dist(x, T) where T are targets
2011-06-15T07:20:40  <antimatroid> but it's admissible
2011-06-15T07:20:47  <antimatroid> bit*
2011-06-15T07:21:17  <antimatroid> and the search queue minimises h if there is a draw for min f
2011-06-15T07:22:41  <antimatroid> oh wait
2011-06-15T07:22:52  <antimatroid> derp, i can generate h in one sweep at the beginning
2011-06-15T07:22:57  <antimatroid> that makes a* way better
2011-06-15T07:23:26  <antimatroid> oh, no, nevermind
2011-06-15T07:23:41  <antimatroid> i reduce the number of targets each iteration, damn!
2011-06-15T07:23:55  <antimatroid> well, it'd still be admissible i guess, but not as accurate
2011-06-15T07:24:21  <antimatroid> and try to find food where there really isn't any
2011-06-15T07:24:22  <guyverthree> hey guys i'm havign a problem i have undated my tools and now run one game doesn't work
2011-06-15T07:25:46  <aerique> antimatroid: glad i could help 8-D
2011-06-15T07:27:22  <guyverthree> no worries fiured it out now :)
2011-06-15T07:28:50  <antimatroid> aerique: are you using a* with multiple targets/sources?
2011-06-15T07:29:01  <antimatroid> multiple targets is the hard part
2011-06-15T07:29:51  <aerique> antimatroid: no, i only just added a* code to my bot
2011-06-15T07:30:26  <antimatroid> i haven't programmed anything for that
2011-06-15T07:30:41  <antimatroid> i've been trying to work my stuff out before programming properly this time
2011-06-15T07:30:58  <aerique> antimatroid: played a little with the h(x) weight which is already interesting
2011-06-15T07:31:04  <Zaphus> I always skip the "coding properly" step, seems like too much work :-)
2011-06-15T07:31:18  <aerique> antimatroid: i'm back to real-life work now though :-|
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2011-06-15T07:36:35  <antimatroid> Zaphus: it's not worth the messiness and bugs
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2011-06-15T07:43:40  <antimatroid> there is one simple thing airports could do that would really make everyone's life better, and i don't understand why they don't
2011-06-15T07:44:12  <antimatroid> there should be a big line painted around baggage claim things with big signs saying stand outside of the line unless you are actually stepping in to pick up your luggage
2011-06-15T07:44:40  <antimatroid> i have never seen a lack of space being a problem, the crowd could then swallow people after they've picked stuff up and the world would be a better place
2011-06-15T07:45:19  <Zaphus> I've been to airports that have a line...   makes little or no difference :-(
2011-06-15T07:52:06  <antimatroid> bah, people!
2011-06-15T07:52:23  <antimatroid> i hate everything about participating in queue's
2011-06-15T07:54:54  <antimatroid> a1k0n_: I think I might have just got what you meant the other day
2011-06-15T07:55:26  <antimatroid> was it to paint out the h values with a bfs from all targets, then when i select a target do a kind of inverse search from that to update the information/
2011-06-15T08:03:00  <antimatroid> http://pastebin.com/xhHzs5gP
2011-06-15T08:03:20  <antimatroid> the numbers there are different for each example, but it shows the difference in the number of locations one extracts from the search queue
2011-06-15T08:03:55  <antimatroid> i have assumed no wrapping with bfs too :P
2011-06-15T08:06:07  <rabidus> what's that A*
2011-06-15T08:06:11  <rabidus> a*
2011-06-15T08:06:25  <antimatroid> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A*_search_algorithm
2011-06-15T08:06:59  <antimatroid> i have h(x) := min_T manhattendist(x, T)
2011-06-15T08:07:03  <rabidus> oh
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2011-06-15T08:07:35  <Zaphus> antimatroid: thats what I was thinking would be a good way of doing it, should be relatively cheap to do
2011-06-15T08:07:56  <Zaphus> not that I have any A* implemented in my bot
2011-06-15T08:08:09  <antimatroid> Zaphus: except h(x) is expensive to calculate for every square added to the search queue if you have lots of target squares
2011-06-15T08:08:17  <antimatroid> i haven't implemented any of this
2011-06-15T08:08:41  <dr-> which IDE c++ developpers usually use with linux ?
2011-06-15T08:08:43  <antimatroid> i'm trying to work out a way to update a grid of h values if i extract a target
2011-06-15T08:08:55  <antimatroid> dr-: code::blocks with mingw compiler!
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2011-06-15T08:09:18  <antimatroid> you can download that as one thing
2011-06-15T08:09:30  <dr-> mingw is for window, no ?
2011-06-15T08:09:41  <antimatroid> pretty sure i have it on linux, lemme check
2011-06-15T08:10:14  <antimatroid> maybe not, well i just installed code::blocks alright and it's wonderful :)
2011-06-15T08:10:23  <antimatroid> code::blocks is cross platform at least
2011-06-15T08:10:35  <smiley1983> antimatroid: mingw is the Minimalistic GNU for Windows - on linux you don't need a minimalistic one :)
2011-06-15T08:10:56  <antimatroid> smiley1983: that would explain why i didn't have problems with my timer on windows :P
2011-06-15T08:12:09  <smiley1983> 8 player map based on random walks: http://ants.zeroviz.us/hzK3K/ - after a bit of experimentation, I think these may still need some manual filtering, but there is a far better ratio of useable maps
2011-06-15T08:12:15  <antimatroid> dr-: probably doesn't need to be said, but create a project for your bot and you can compile it to .exe with like ctrl f11 and not have to worry about linking etc.
2011-06-15T08:12:31  <dr-> I used once code blocks, and it was just horrible (for me) compared to eclipse
2011-06-15T08:12:37  <antimatroid> :O
2011-06-15T08:13:12  <antimatroid> smiley1983: that's pretty cool, but not what i meant :P
2011-06-15T08:14:00  <dr-> I used it on windows, dunno if it was windows or code blocks that made that feeling
2011-06-15T08:14:12  <smiley1983> ah, you were thinking of mirroring octants?
2011-06-15T08:14:23  <smiley1983> rotating, rather?
2011-06-15T08:14:35  <antimatroid> smiley1983: http://pastebin.com/f72B0r8H
2011-06-15T08:15:10  <dr-> even if shortcuts exist for compiling without doing anything, you'll need to write a make for the official server
2011-06-15T08:15:18  <antimatroid> if you have loc = (a,b), then you have [a][b], [rows-a-1][b],...
2011-06-15T08:15:31  <dr-> s/make/Makefile
2011-06-15T08:15:41  <antimatroid> no make files for the official server
2011-06-15T08:15:43  <antimatroid> i don't think
2011-06-15T08:15:55  <antimatroid> it works out all the linking stuff for you, i've no idea how to do makefiles
2011-06-15T08:16:06  <antimatroid> i would struggle to link c++ files properly
2011-06-15T08:17:12  <dr-> it's written in the c++ starter package that if you include a makefile, the server would use it
2011-06-15T08:17:25  <antimatroid> they were planning to
2011-06-15T08:17:30  <antimatroid> but i don't think it's materialised
2011-06-15T08:18:06  <antimatroid> i mostly wrote that bot at like the start of the year
2011-06-15T08:19:31  <dr-> okay ... so i don't have to worry about the linking stuff
2011-06-15T08:19:45  <smiley1983> antimatroid: I'm afraid I don't follow that notation... do the a and b refer to the letters in the ascii diagram?
2011-06-15T08:22:13  <antimatroid> smiley, nah , a and b are numbers specifying a location
2011-06-15T08:22:52  <antimatroid> if you pick out a location in the top left quadrant i think that'd work, you end up with 8 symmetric locations to place ants/food/water/whatever
2011-06-15T08:22:53  <smiley1983> okay... I'm failing to understand how it can be made symmetrical on the grid
2011-06-15T08:23:44  <smiley1983> is this making 8 rotationally symmetrical map segments, or finding starting locations for 8 players on the existing maps?
2011-06-15T08:25:37  <antimatroid> you pick a single location to place ants, say (0, 2) (so f = a), then you have {(0,2), (dim-1, 2), (0,dim-1-2), (dim-1,dim-1-2), (2,0), (2, dim-1), (dim-1-2, 0), (dim-1-2, dim-1)}
2011-06-15T08:25:52  <antimatroid> those are your ants starting locations
2011-06-15T08:26:08  <antimatroid> then do a similar process when placing water/food/land
2011-06-15T08:27:50  <antimatroid> yeah, i don't think you even need to pick (a,b) to be in the top left quadrant, should come out alright
2011-06-15T08:28:18  <antimatroid> you can't pick (a,a) for ants locations, otherwise you'll double up locations
2011-06-15T08:28:33  <antimatroid> and some other rules too i think
2011-06-15T08:28:54  <smiley1983> Okay, forgive me if I'm being incredibly dense, but won't this result in starting positions which are dissimilar, unless the mapgen uses the same logic for its tile placement?
2011-06-15T08:29:12  <antimatroid> tile placement?
2011-06-15T08:29:29  <antimatroid> the idea is to make the map generator add water with that symmetry in mind
2011-06-15T08:29:31  <smiley1983> well, water or land
2011-06-15T08:29:40  <antimatroid> erm
2011-06-15T08:29:41  <smiley1983> right, yes, now I see
2011-06-15T08:29:45  <antimatroid> i screwed up the dimensions
2011-06-15T08:29:54  <smiley1983> I know, but I get the idea :)
2011-06-15T08:29:59  <antimatroid> i meant to have the same number of rows and cols, but does it actually matter?
2011-06-15T08:30:04  <antimatroid> i don't think it does in the end
2011-06-15T08:30:49  <smiley1983> I could write the generator to use this sort of symmetry...
2011-06-15T08:31:12  <smiley1983> at some point, though, the question will arise about whether it would be better to have all of this in Python
2011-06-15T08:31:29  <antimatroid> yeah, it should be in python :P
2011-06-15T08:31:38  <antimatroid> i will get onto maps again after next thursday
2011-06-15T08:31:38  <smiley1983> My enthusiasm for map generation is beginning to wane, and I'm pretty much ready to go back to my own program
2011-06-15T08:31:54  <antimatroid> bah, maps are one of the funnest problems :P
2011-06-15T08:32:03  <antimatroid> but fair enough
2011-06-15T08:32:14  <smiley1983> so I think I'll probably leave my efforts about where they are until/unless there's some call for it to be updated
2011-06-15T08:32:43  <smiley1983> I might return to it at some point, because you are right, map generation is fun
2011-06-15T08:33:17  <smiley1983> It's more fun in roguelike games (another subject entirely...) because a wider variation of map types is tactically interesting for the player
2011-06-15T08:33:18  <antimatroid> i understand getting sick of it though
2011-06-15T08:33:30  <smiley1983> I think this game favours mostly-open maps for good games
2011-06-15T08:33:37  <antimatroid> yep
2011-06-15T08:33:48  <antimatroid> but i think some kind of "layout" for pathfinding is good
2011-06-15T08:33:55  <antimatroid> makes it more interesting to watch at least
2011-06-15T08:35:12  <smiley1983> I might return and write some different map generation algorithms in Python once that code is more developed, and can do several types of rotation (if that actually happens) :)
2011-06-15T08:35:35  <antimatroid> it will :)
2011-06-15T08:36:59  <smiley1983> okay, time for me to get up and stretch and not sit in front of the computer for a while :)
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2011-06-15T12:53:28  <guyverthree> hey all anyone else having a problem with making moves ???
2011-06-15T12:53:43  <guyverthree> my bot issues orders but it doesn't move my ants
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2011-06-15T12:54:06  <berak> are you checking for errors ?
2011-06-15T12:54:57  <guyverthree> would that not result in a timeout or crash ???
2011-06-15T12:55:35  <rabidus> that would be informed
2011-06-15T12:55:48  <guyverthree> i thought that that would be the case
2011-06-15T12:57:53  <berak> playgame.py -l visualizer -R -S -I -O -E -v [more  options] should give you 0.bot1.error in the visualizer-dir
2011-06-15T12:59:31  <guyverthree> whcih one generates the error file ????
2011-06-15T12:59:41  <berak> -E
2011-06-15T12:59:55  <berak> together with -l dir
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2011-06-15T13:04:55  <guyverthree> i'm confused because my run command looks nothing like the one you say i should be using
2011-06-15T13:05:14  <guyverthree> playgame.py --player_seed 42 --end_wait=0.25 --verbose --log_dir game_logs --turns 100 --map_file maps\symmetric_maps\symmetric_10.map  [array of bots after this]
2011-06-15T13:06:44  <berak> just insert  -E -l visualizer after playgame.py
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2011-06-15T13:08:08  <guyverthree> thanks i don't gert a log file out
2011-06-15T13:10:35  <berak> playgame.py -E -I -O --player_seed 42 --end_wait=0.25 --verbose --log_dir game_logs --turns 100 --map_file maps\symmetric_maps\symmetric_10.map [array of bots after this]  // sorry, there was a log folder already in your command
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2011-06-15T13:13:40  <guyverthree> and the array of bots starts at 0 yeha so if my bot is first in the arrray my bot is number one
2011-06-15T13:13:57  <guyverthree> number 0 i mean
2011-06-15T13:22:32  <guyverthree> the game logs don't match up with the debug i am getting i'm really confused
2011-06-15T13:22:48  <guyverthree> it has different turns in both for the moves
2011-06-15T13:22:52  <berak> at least you got them ;(
2011-06-15T13:23:04  <guyverthree> very true
2011-06-15T13:23:36  <guyverthree> even if i go back to a realy simple bot I.E. more stupid than the first one i get stupid results
2011-06-15T13:28:58  <guyverthree> in fact it's since i upgraded the tool yesterday
2011-06-15T13:29:46  <berak> tool only, or pulled in the whole repo ?
2011-06-15T13:33:59  <guyverthree> i downloaded the new tools yesterday and now my bots doesn't want to work properly
2011-06-15T13:34:36  <guyverthree> I'll just get the tools again and start from scratch
2011-06-15T13:34:47  <berak> better pull from  http://github.com/aichallenge/aichallenge
2011-06-15T13:34:49  <guyverthree> and the bot it won't take long ot port the code.
2011-06-15T13:35:33  <guyverthree> I have to go now anyway lunch is over:(
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2011-06-15T13:35:52  <berak> good lu..
2011-06-15T13:42:21  <berak> hell, BaronTrozo showed up again..
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2011-06-15T15:01:55  <berak> i'm staring at the appendix of 'the complete strategyst' (RAND_CB113-1.pdf), yeah, 3 pages of random numbers printed on paper !
2011-06-15T15:03:04  <berak> what's puzzling me is, we all know, how to throw dice, but how would you generate a +2 digit random number without any computers ?
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2011-06-15T17:30:14  <a1k0n_> i was just reminded: ICFP contest is this weekend
2011-06-15T17:30:14  <a1k0n_> http://www.icfpcontest.org/
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2011-06-15T17:46:48  <sigh> a1k0n_, what do you have to do for that contest... I can't find much details regarding that on the site
2011-06-15T17:46:58  <mcstar> yep
2011-06-15T17:47:12  <mcstar> only announcements
2011-06-15T17:47:29  <mcstar> functional programmin, but programming what?
2011-06-15T17:47:45  <sigh> FP is functional programming?
2011-06-15T17:47:57  <mcstar> its written in full
2011-06-15T17:48:04  <a1k0n_> international conference on functional programming contest
2011-06-15T17:48:16  <sigh> but then it is a functional programming programming contest (according to the heading) :P
2011-06-15T17:48:23  <a1k0n_> sigh: it's usually a pretty interesting problem which you don't necessarily need to use a functional language to solve
2011-06-15T17:48:52  <sigh> why do you need to run a specific system?
2011-06-15T17:48:57  <a1k0n_> you can use whatever.  previous years had you piloting a mars rover, solving a series of puzzles on a virtual machine (the puzzles themselves being very computer-sciencey ones)
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2011-06-15T17:49:10  <mcstar> is it more like engineering or computer science?
2011-06-15T17:49:18  <a1k0n_> it's more like computer science.  definitely.
2011-06-15T17:49:31  <a1k0n_> but it's organized by completely different people every year, so it varies a lot
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2011-06-15T17:49:43  <sigh> i see
2011-06-15T17:49:46  <mcstar> did you participate in it b4?
2011-06-15T17:49:50  <sigh> they need a better landing page
2011-06-15T17:49:50  <a1k0n_> and i don't know what the deal with the linux-on-kvm is
2011-06-15T17:49:59  <a1k0n_> many times.  i forgot about it last year.
2011-06-15T17:50:11  <a1k0n_> mega1/bocsimacko also
2011-06-15T17:50:23  <mcstar> how many teams usually register?
2011-06-15T17:50:30  <a1k0n_> ...lots?
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2011-06-15T17:50:43  <mcstar> like this one?
2011-06-15T17:50:47  <mcstar> in the thousands?
2011-06-15T17:50:56  <a1k0n_> here's 2006: http://www.boundvariable.org/scoreboard.shtml
2011-06-15T17:51:28  <mcstar> were you part of a team?
2011-06-15T17:51:33  <a1k0n_> 2008: We received 140 lightning round submissions and 336 regular round submissions.
2011-06-15T17:52:03  <a1k0n_> i think every time i've worked alone, and then sometimes joined up with one other guy
2011-06-15T17:53:34  <mcstar> well, its going to be too hard for me
2011-06-15T17:55:27  <mcstar> do they release the codes after the contest is over?
2011-06-15T17:55:45  <mcstar> or is this binary only?
2011-06-15T17:56:11  <a1k0n_> up to the organizers, i don't know
2011-06-15T17:56:28  <a1k0n_> but if you're in the running for top 10 or so, then you need to submit your source
2011-06-15T17:56:38  <a1k0n_> and i don't think they release them for you
2011-06-15T17:57:34  <mcstar> did you research the field the problem was connected to, or did you start coding right away?
2011-06-15T17:57:50  <mcstar> im asking about the complexity of the problem
2011-06-15T17:58:28  <a1k0n_> a couple years ago we had to essentially compute orbits and i had to do a bit of research in celestial mechanics (but that wasn't absolutely necessary)
2011-06-15T17:58:46  <a1k0n_> well, we had to compute thrust vectors to obtain a particular orbit, i should say
2011-06-15T17:58:51  <a1k0n_> which is surprisingly nontrivial
2011-06-15T17:59:31  <mcstar> guess numerical integrators showed up
2011-06-15T18:00:35  <a1k0n_> well, the funny thing was you were essentially provided with the "machine" that numerically integrated the ship's path.  the first task was just to write an interpreter for the virtual machine that computed the orbit, so that everyone had the same exact program to test against
2011-06-15T18:01:07  <a1k0n_> the last several years have had virtual machines of some sort.  2007 was especially interesting as the machine code was DNA and the machine operations were string operations
2011-06-15T18:01:33  <a1k0n_> (not real DNA, just some silly thing)
2011-06-15T18:01:55  <mcstar> whoa, lets not get ahead of ourselfs
2011-06-15T18:02:14  <mcstar> u had a virtual machine that computed the path given inital conditions?
2011-06-15T18:02:33  <mcstar> and it had an instruction set?
2011-06-15T18:02:51  <mcstar> and the problem to be solved was to write in that language?
2011-06-15T18:03:58  <mcstar> or maybe i should understand this, as that you were given a black box, that contained the numerics, and you had to use that for your course planner
2011-06-15T18:04:33  <mcstar> and the problem was to do what? wite an interface?
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2011-06-15T18:15:30  <mcstar> a1k0n_: so whats the punch line? to code in the machine language of a hypothetical machine?
2011-06-15T18:15:52  <antimatroid> a couple of guys at my uni love that contest
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2011-06-15T18:16:12  <a1k0n_> no, the problem was to provide inputs to the machine however you want
2011-06-15T18:16:20  <a1k0n_> but yes it had a small instruction set and was pretty easy to implement
2011-06-15T18:16:42  <a1k0n_> the machine was just there to validate your solution to a given problem
2011-06-15T18:16:55  <a1k0n_> without, say, doing a roundtrip to the contest webserver
2011-06-15T18:17:03  <mcstar> hm
2011-06-15T18:17:22  <mcstar> so a given solution is totally independent of this virtual environment
2011-06-15T18:17:28  <a1k0n_> exactly
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2011-06-15T18:17:59  <a1k0n_> and independent of the surrounding envirionment.  why they're doing a linux virtualbox this contest i couldn't say
2011-06-15T18:18:09  <a1k0n_> though the mars rover contest did that too.
2011-06-15T18:18:22  <mcstar> security reasons i guess
2011-06-15T18:18:29  <mcstar> like the sanboxing here
2011-06-15T18:18:32  <a1k0n_> right
2011-06-15T18:18:46  <mcstar> actually they say this on the link you gave
2011-06-15T18:18:52  <a1k0n_> if they're actually going to execute your program instead of you just providing a bunch of input
2011-06-15T18:18:55  <mcstar> at least i remember something liek that :D
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2011-06-15T18:19:52  <mcstar> the money sounds appealing
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2011-06-15T18:20:11  <mcstar> but since they only reward the first 2, its unlikey to get it
2011-06-15T18:20:12  <a1k0n_> haha guess what
2011-06-15T18:20:16  <a1k0n_> icfp 2004's theme was ants
2011-06-15T18:20:19  <a1k0n_> https://alliance.seas.upenn.edu/~plclub/cgi-bin/contest/
2011-06-15T18:20:47  <mcstar> totally different problem i can see that right away
2011-06-15T18:20:57  <mcstar> its on hexagonal lattice :D
2011-06-15T18:21:16  <a1k0n_> hexagonal would be better for this contest too
2011-06-15T18:21:30  <mcstar> this is more interesting
2011-06-15T18:21:48  <mcstar> i like when symmetry is broken
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2011-06-15T18:24:49  <mleise> eeek they use windows
2011-06-15T18:24:51  <mcstar> oh, its colony based and u had to submit an FSM
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2011-06-15T18:25:14  <mcstar> now, im content, this contest is really different
2011-06-15T18:25:15  <a1k0n_> yep
2011-06-15T18:25:22  <mleise> Why do they have the same constest that we run?
2011-06-15T18:25:29  <mcstar> they dont
2011-06-15T18:25:34  <mcstar> and they didnt
2011-06-15T18:25:36  <mleise> oh lol just read your comment
2011-06-15T18:25:42  <a1k0n_> also that was 7 years ago
2011-06-15T18:25:50  <mcstar> it was in 2004
2011-06-15T18:25:52  <mcstar> yep
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2011-06-15T18:26:17  <mcstar> lol these comments from kingpin, so enlightening
2011-06-15T18:26:33  <antimatroid> a1k0n_: hexagonal wouldn't be very nice for number of moves :P
2011-06-15T18:26:53  <antimatroid> i'm not a fan of asymmetry with ai either
2011-06-15T18:27:07  <a1k0n_> true
2011-06-15T18:27:07  <antimatroid> well, i am playing around, but not for a contest
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2011-06-15T22:27:16  <iShurf> Hello, everybody!
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2011-06-15T22:27:56  <iShurf> I registered in ants beta about 16 hours ago but still haven't received the confirmation letter. Can someone help me? What should I do?
2011-06-15T22:29:52  <mleise> iShurf: register again and click on the activation link on the next page ;)
2011-06-15T22:31:21  <iShurf> mleise: but how can I return my nickname back? :(
2011-06-15T22:32:02  <mleise> hmm, then you may have to ask amstan_
2011-06-15T22:32:37  <mleise> he'll know who can activate your account
2011-06-15T22:32:52  <amstan_> mleise: you have root, mysql in, update user set status=1 where status=0;
2011-06-15T22:33:03  <amstan_> mysql -u contest
2011-06-15T22:33:09  <mleise> kk
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2011-06-15T22:35:41  <antimatroid> iShurf: your username also doesn't really matter during beta
2011-06-15T22:36:49  <mleise> ok, it is activated
2011-06-15T22:36:56  <iShurf> it works! Thank you for your help:)
2011-06-15T22:37:05  <antimatroid> that was quick :P
2011-06-15T22:37:20  <mleise> amstan_: your sql was totally wrong, but I found the right db and field in the end it :p
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2011-06-15T22:38:44  <mleise> I like having root access. It makes me feel important :)
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2011-06-15T22:44:41  <sigh> mleise, yes people with root access tend to feel that way
2011-06-15T22:45:17  <sigh> over here they have shirts that say "I have root @ google"
2011-06-15T22:45:54  <antimatroid> hehe
2011-06-15T22:46:27  <sigh> (they meaning the people who actaully have root)
2011-06-15T22:47:30  <mleise> hehe, so they could stop google.com from working. impressive in deed
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