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2011-07-21T05:16:00  <_flag> amstan: Nope, the timelimit on the beta server is definately half a second
2011-07-21T05:17:04  <janzert> _flag: that's what it has been for quite a long time on the beta server
2011-07-21T05:17:32  <_flag> jazert: I was told it was a second, which is why I was perplexed that my bot was timing out
2011-07-21T05:17:54  <_flag> janzert*
2011-07-21T05:18:05  <janzert> ahh, nope not unless someone had changed it in the last few days
2011-07-21T05:18:37  <_flag> My bot reports when it breaks a timelimit and my debugging output says it's half a second, which is why I pointed it out
2011-07-21T05:18:52  <_flag> So it's definately still half a second
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2011-07-21T05:21:20  <_flag> janzert: What was the reasoning for changing it to half a second anyway?
2011-07-21T05:22:08  <janzert> don't know, I think it was McLeopold that did it but I'm not really sure. I was rather surprised when I saw it
2011-07-21T05:22:32  <janzert> my guess has been that it was just to shorten the real time that games take to play
2011-07-21T05:22:56  <_flag> Well most bots don't actually make use of that time anyway, so I doubt that would really help
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2011-07-21T07:48:22  <jbrechtel> _flag: How are you seeing debugging output from your bot for games it plays on the beta server?
2011-07-21T07:48:43  <jbrechtel> Are bots allowed to make network connections on the beta server?
2011-07-21T07:48:50  <jbrechtel> Or am I just missing something?
2011-07-21T07:50:59  <_flag> jbrechtel: When bots either timeout or crash the server displays a limited sample from the stderr output
2011-07-21T08:20:05  <iouri_> amstan: gotcha.  Fixed the tabs.
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2011-07-21T09:40:28  <mleise> _flag: I knew the timelimit was 0.5 seconds, but yesterday it sounded like that was changed back to 1 second.
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2011-07-21T10:12:11  <iouri_> amstan: gotcha.  Fixed the tabs.
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2011-07-21T11:44:15  <sir_macelon> hi
2011-07-21T11:44:51  <sir_macelon> how come there's no food at start in this game? http://aichallengebeta.hypertriangle.com/visualizer.php?game=99254
2011-07-21T11:45:19  <sir_macelon> i thought there's a guaranteed amount of food at start
2011-07-21T11:46:10  <sir_macelon> the game turned out to be who get luckiest to get close to food spawns
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2011-07-21T11:50:49  <eashoka> sir_macelon : good point!
2011-07-21T11:53:25  <sir_macelon> i saw also games where a very low food spawn rate lead to random/lucky results depending where you sent your ants for exploring
2011-07-21T11:54:18  <eashoka> sir_macelon : however, that can happen even in positions starting with food isn't it ? I think what needs to be done is to make sure food spawns are symmetrical(no food at all is symmatrical too :-)) at the start and then they should appear in entirely random spots.
2011-07-21T11:55:42  <sir_macelon> eashoka: I think it is already spawn symmetrically, depending on map symmetry
2011-07-21T11:55:57  <eashoka> sir_macelon : I too agree, low food spawn cases are definite lotteries. I may be mistaken, but I noticed in some maps there were high pobability for food to appear in certain places than others. this will favour certain bots which are programmed to give preference to certain directions over others.
2011-07-21T11:56:35  <eashoka> for instance, some of octagonal maps had a very high probability of food to appear in the center
2011-07-21T11:57:49  <sir_macelon> eashoka: that's because of their type of symmetry unfortunately
2011-07-21T11:58:04  <sir_macelon> eashoka: but i guess they were removed anyway
2011-07-21T11:59:46  <sir_macelon> eashoka: you've won here with me thanks to this move: http://aichallengebeta.hypertriangle.com/visualizer.php?game=99382&turn=55&row=46&col=33 :)
2011-07-21T12:01:25  <eashoka> aha! you analyze things in detail!
2011-07-21T12:01:40  <eashoka> tell me the turn number please.
2011-07-21T12:02:24  <eashoka> yeah I too saw that game. one of very few instances I managed to beat you.
2011-07-21T12:02:31  <eashoka> ah turn 55... let me see
2011-07-21T12:08:31  <eashoka> sir_macelon :further adding to your point, appearance of a large amount of food in one spot suddenly also can lead to lucky results. that too I have seen in some maps.
2011-07-21T12:10:46  <sir_macelon> eashoka: I always try to find the cause of my failure and see whether this was just luck or my bot has done something wrong
2011-07-21T12:11:53  <sir_macelon> eashoka: if you rewind that game, then you'll see that food hasn't appeared there in one turn
2011-07-21T12:12:43  <sir_macelon> eashoka: mcleopold has fixed already the issue with groups of food being spawn
2011-07-21T12:15:13  <eashoka> in that particular case (turn 55) I think I just got lucky the spawns were closer to me and made the natural and obvious move. your bot couldn't have done better there isn't it?uld you have
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2011-07-21T12:16:45  <sir_macelon> eashoka: if you turn on the fog of war, you'll notice, you haven't seen that pile of food at turn 55 yet :)
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2011-07-21T12:17:11  <sir_macelon> eashoka: yes, I guess I got unlucky in that game
2011-07-21T12:17:29  <eashoka> sir_macelon: finally I have managed to put some battle tactics to give you some competition. still my 4 the week in the competition. looking forward to some close encounters :-)
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2011-07-21T12:20:57  <eashoka> sir_macelon: did you notice, there were few very good bots ranked 10-20 with interesting battle tactics. remember I predicted few days ago that many would be following you pretty soon... :-) got the feeling that this is going to get very close and hot... you deserve the credit to take the battles into an advanced level. your bot forced others to work hard on battles.
2011-07-21T12:23:33  <sir_macelon> eashoka: well i did expect that come anyway, I've just reached a level where it's hard to improve significantly and for others implementing battle tactics gives a big boost
2011-07-21T12:24:03  <sir_macelon> eashoka: and I'm glad it gets finally interesting
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2011-07-21T12:28:49  <sir_macelon> got to go, bye
2011-07-21T12:28:52  <eashoka> sir_macelon: still lot to be done in battles i guess. have seen many bots timing out. trying to work out permutations i guess :-)
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2011-07-21T13:11:22  <bhasker> morning
2011-07-21T13:17:09  <bhasker> actually i believe the bots are getting very similar
2011-07-21T13:17:35  <bhasker> and lack of strategic depth in the game is gonna cause this to be very boring very fast
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2011-07-21T14:35:06  <computerwiz_222> amstan: hey
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2011-07-21T16:58:06  <CIA-48> aichallenge: janzert epsilon * racc1d90 / website/game_settings.php : Add web page to display what the current game settings are on the server - https://github.com/aichallenge/aichallenge/commit/acc1d900da98730d8a2d31542b753392a4125bf9
2011-07-21T17:01:33  <janzert> it isn't linked to from anywhere yet, but http://aichallengebeta.hypertriangle.com/game_settings.php will show you what the server game settings currently are
2011-07-21T17:12:09  <amstan> janzert: nice
2011-07-21T17:12:17  <amstan> janzert: we can probably link it from the rules
2011-07-21T17:13:10  <amstan> janzert: oh? turn time is 500?
2011-07-21T17:13:13  <janzert> rules didn't seem like th right place since that is overall contest rules not anything game specific
2011-07-21T17:13:27  <amstan> i tought it was 1 second, some people were confused why they were timing out
2011-07-21T17:13:32  <amstan> flag_ especially
2011-07-21T17:13:51  <amstan> _flag: ^
2011-07-21T17:13:52  <janzert> game specification actually seems like the best place to link from but I'm not sure how to accomplish it with the way that is pulled in from the wiki
2011-07-21T17:14:02  <amstan> janzert: yes,
2011-07-21T17:14:04  <janzert> yeah I already talked to flag yesterday
2011-07-21T17:14:14  <janzert> it was the motivation for doing this :)
2011-07-21T17:20:08  <janzert> also I think all of this should be recorded in the game replay file (although I'm not completely sure that it isn't)
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2011-07-21T17:35:09  <mleise> janzert: there is a bunch of meta data in the replay that I don't make available anywhere in the visualizer
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2011-07-21T19:13:20  <_flag> I'm not sure if this is intentional, but I'd just like to point out how low the per-turn food spawning rate is in this game: http://aichallengebeta.hypertriangle.com/visualizer.php?game=100140
2011-07-21T19:15:28  <_flag> Even after the maximum 1500 turns the game is clearly not resolved and the winner is decided based on a small number of early food spawns
2011-07-21T19:17:58  <mleise> _flag: You are only angry because you came in 2nd :p
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2011-07-21T20:05:44  <_flag> mleise: That's part of it, but the point is that the low food rate encourages bots to avoid each other, occupy space and simply wait for food spawns. I'm pretty sure had the game gone on another few thousand turns I probably would've won, but games shouldn't have to be that long in order to be decided
2011-07-21T20:06:30  <mleise> Absolutly right. I agree with you.
2011-07-21T20:06:39  <janzert> some are pushing for all games to have a really low spawn rate like that
2011-07-21T20:07:00  <_flag> janzert: Then all you'll get is games decided by lucky food spawns and nobody ever attacking
2011-07-21T20:07:04  <janzert> personally I agree that it just lengthens the time to a natural resolution of the game
2011-07-21T20:07:57  <_flag> Personally I'd like to have a higher rate of food spawns as to encourage battle tactics and minimize the impact of random luck
2011-07-21T20:08:09  <_flag> However, that might leave people not using C/C++ at a disadvantage
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2011-07-21T20:09:32  <janzert> I think the rate should be as fast as possible while still allowing good bots to get their ants into their optimal or preferred positions
2011-07-21T20:10:26  <janzert> i.e. there are problems with too slow or too fast of a rate
2011-07-21T20:15:57  <bhasker> i think food rate should be high
2011-07-21T20:16:02  <bhasker> low spaw rate is just boring as hell
2011-07-21T20:16:06  <bhasker> to watch too
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2011-07-21T20:55:26  <amstan> pgpaskar_: lol
2011-07-21T20:55:31  <pgpaskar_> yep
2011-07-21T20:55:35  <pgpaskar_> ridicule me from now
2011-07-21T20:55:35  <pgpaskar_> lol
2011-07-21T20:55:39  <pgpaskar_> fucking gmail :P
2011-07-21T20:55:52  <amstan> pgpaskar_: oh.. you mean that you did the same thing?
2011-07-21T20:55:57  <amstan> nah.. that's fine
2011-07-21T20:56:16  <pgpaskar_> lol
2011-07-21T20:56:25  <pgpaskar_> At some point I enabled a labs extension that made the hotkey use reply all
2011-07-21T20:56:43  <amstan> reply all is best in most cases
2011-07-21T20:56:45  <amstan> except this one
2011-07-21T20:56:48  <pgpaskar_> this was not an issue since I rarely encounter such ... a situation
2011-07-21T20:56:50  <amstan> but that's fine..
2011-07-21T20:56:59  <amstan> idk, i don't hate for this
2011-07-21T20:57:16  <pgpaskar_> I'm kinda annoyed that Id id it though because people whose spam filters caught the original
2011-07-21T20:57:20  <pgpaskar_> now probably have my copy...
2011-07-21T20:57:25  <pgpaskar_> :(
2011-07-21T20:57:27  <amstan> pgpaskar_: but you're right.. if they were bccing everyone they would have got more replies
2011-07-21T20:57:48  <amstan> because they make you think you're special
2011-07-21T20:58:00  <pgpaskar_> It's not even that
2011-07-21T20:58:04  <pgpaskar_> if you have ana ctual priate mailing list
2011-07-21T20:58:10  <pgpaskar_> and you do that like Google did a few weeks ago
2011-07-21T20:58:13  <pgpaskar_> you leak everyone's email
2011-07-21T20:58:21  <pgpaskar_> You just need one person with malware on their computer
2011-07-21T20:58:28  <amstan> yep
2011-07-21T20:58:30  <amstan> and spam
2011-07-21T20:58:31  <pgpaskar_> And those emails are now circulated..
2011-07-21T20:58:55  <pgpaskar_> I kinda regret doing it now.  luckily it was from my uwaterloo account so only my school reputationis tarnished! :P
2011-07-21T20:59:11  <pgpaskar_> whoa this is the ai contst channel, hows this going LOL
2011-07-21T20:59:27  <amstan> ok, i guess
2011-07-21T20:59:35  <amstan> except we should really launch sometime..
2011-07-21T20:59:46  <amstan> pgpaskar_: it's pretty much the story from last summer
2011-07-21T20:59:49  <amstan> - jeff
2011-07-21T20:59:57  <pgpaskar_> I completely forgot about this.  I've been coding in.... vb.net.... it has drained me of will
2011-07-21T21:00:05  <amstan> dude...
2011-07-21T21:00:06  <amstan> no...
2011-07-21T21:00:17  <pgpaskar_> co-op job lol
2011-07-21T21:01:08  <amstan> i went to novell in january, did some windows testing, but then realized i shouldn't really do waterloo anymore, and quit and went to college
2011-07-21T21:01:19  <amstan> that was a very interesting day when i told them i wanted to leave
2011-07-21T21:01:33  <pgpaskar_> ._.?
2011-07-21T21:01:40  <pgpaskar_> where are you going now?
2011-07-21T21:01:47  <amstan> mohawk college, comp eng
2011-07-21T21:01:55  <amstan> fun stuff actually
2011-07-21T21:02:22  <amstan> getting 90s
2011-07-21T21:02:33  <pgpaskar_> I haven't seen one of those in a while
2011-07-21T21:02:37  <pgpaskar_> I remeber the days...
2011-07-21T21:02:46  <amstan> those?
2011-07-21T21:02:51  <pgpaskar_> a 90
2011-07-21T21:02:56  <amstan> lol.. yeah
2011-07-21T21:03:09  <amstan> i got second in my class for a midterm in digital logic
2011-07-21T21:03:28  <amstan> pretty much cs251, without the cpu stuff
2011-07-21T21:03:56  <pgpaskar_> Did you get transfer credits from udubz?
2011-07-21T21:04:11  <amstan> nah
2011-07-21T21:04:20  <amstan> if there is one class i could transfer it's programming
2011-07-21T21:04:27  <pgpaskar_> lol damn
2011-07-21T21:04:28  <amstan> but we do embeded, so meh
2011-07-21T21:05:44  <amstan> pgpaskar_: oh yeah.. if you wanna do small scale embeded: http://processors.wiki.ti.com/index.php/MSP430_LaunchPad_(MSP-EXP430G2)
2011-07-21T21:05:48  <amstan> best thing ever..
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2011-07-21T23:07:10  <jbrechtel> Hi, so why is the turn time at half a second, and is it going to stay that way once we're out of beta?
2011-07-21T23:11:34  <amstan> jbrechtel: not sure, probably
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