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2011-08-18T06:27:08  <codetiger> Any idea when the contest is to start
2011-08-18T06:27:26  <codetiger> Sept or Aug?
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2011-08-18T07:26:36  <delt0r> thanks mleise
2011-08-18T07:26:42  <delt0r> very quiet in here
2011-08-18T07:30:33  <rabidus> tru
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2011-08-18T11:26:55  <delt0r> is the ants java starter package that because thats the planed build env?
2011-08-18T11:27:04  <delt0r> ie can i change the make file to my needs
2011-08-18T11:28:02  <janzert> all make files or build scripts in starter packages are there for your convenience, the server build process does not use them at all
2011-08-18T11:28:18  <delt0r> also has interest generally been lost, or is it just a quiet day?
2011-08-18T11:28:32  <delt0r> janzert: Right
2011-08-18T11:28:59  <janzert> personally I think they may be a bit too misleading outweighing the convenience factor
2011-08-18T11:29:01  <delt0r> so the build (assuming we submit source) env have the same rules as last time --ie no packages
2011-08-18T11:29:16  <janzert> interest seems to have died a bit in the last couple weeks yes
2011-08-18T11:29:46  <delt0r> well make files is not how java should be build in general...but that doesn't matter
2011-08-18T11:29:51  <janzert> mostly though the people doing the programming haven't had the time to make much progress
2011-08-18T11:30:24  <delt0r> will it pickup when it starts... looks like the test server has a lot of entries
2011-08-18T11:30:43  <delt0r> Perhaps is just summertime :D
2011-08-18T11:30:47  <janzert> yeah, I'm sure there will be a large surge of interest when it really starts
2011-08-18T11:31:08  <delt0r> thinking of perhaps doing another JbotManager...
2011-08-18T11:31:19  <delt0r> but only if there is the interest
2011-08-18T11:31:25  <janzert> I'm rather surprised how much interest there has been so far given how hard it is to find even
2011-08-18T11:31:27  <delt0r> with cleaner code this time
2011-08-18T11:31:34  <delt0r> YEA
2011-08-18T11:31:56  <delt0r> I only kept looking because i lurked here till a few months ago
2011-08-18T11:32:06  <delt0r> so i knew there was something to find
2011-08-18T11:32:37  <janzert> yeah and really I don't think we want anymore interest at the moment, we have a large enough group for the beta
2011-08-18T11:33:02  <janzert> we just need to get the final problems wrapped up so we can actually launch it
2011-08-18T11:33:22  <delt0r> what are the final problems?
2011-08-18T11:33:26  <delt0r> web site?
2011-08-18T11:33:28  <delt0r> server code
2011-08-18T11:33:37  <delt0r> game managment code?
2011-08-18T11:33:46  <delt0r> starter packs?
2011-08-18T11:33:47  <janzert> ranking/matchup problems mostly
2011-08-18T11:33:51  <delt0r> right
2011-08-18T11:34:02  <janzert> everything else can probably be fixed post launch
2011-08-18T11:34:09  <delt0r> for more than 2 player i imagine its less than trivial
2011-08-18T11:34:33  <janzert> https://github.com/aichallenge/aichallenge/issues?state=open&page=1&milestone=3
2011-08-18T11:35:08  <janzert> not really a large number of problems left, but some of them are pretty certainly non-trivial
2011-08-18T11:35:34  <delt0r> I could have a look at the JSkills
2011-08-18T11:35:38  <delt0r> I know my java
2011-08-18T11:35:45  <delt0r> even if it my fav lang
2011-08-18T11:35:53  <delt0r> if its not my fav lang
2011-08-18T11:37:08  <janzert> basically any game that shows the participants as having a 0.00 skill in there list of games is one that jskills is crashing on
2011-08-18T11:37:55  <janzert> it seems to be related to draws
2011-08-18T11:38:05  <janzert> but I'm not really sure about that
2011-08-18T11:38:11  <delt0r> well at first glance
2011-08-18T11:38:27  <delt0r> the code is an odd design to say the least
2011-08-18T11:38:43  <delt0r> I am not surpised inputs are not checked
2011-08-18T11:38:52  <delt0r> surprised
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2011-08-18T11:39:49  <delt0r> janzert: don't suppose there is a crash report or stack-trace ?
2011-08-18T11:39:57  <janzert> I think it was initially a port of C# code so I imagine it kept a lot of C#isms :}
2011-08-18T11:40:13  <delt0r> of course trueSkill is not complicated --so could do from scratch
2011-08-18T11:40:18  <janzert> I don't have one offhand no
2011-08-18T11:40:25  <delt0r> np
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2011-08-18T11:40:53  <janzert> it was a too many iterations exception of some sort
2011-08-18T11:41:09  <janzert> but that is a month plus old memory ;)
2011-08-18T11:41:45  <janzert> my temporary try at a fix was to raise the maximum iterations to 1000 from 100
2011-08-18T11:42:06  <janzert> which helped relieve how often it was triggered
2011-08-18T11:42:55  <delt0r> right
2011-08-18T11:43:13  <delt0r> just got the paper
2011-08-18T11:43:30  <delt0r> Seek first to understand. then to debug ;)
2011-08-18T11:43:45  <janzert> the ideal thing would be a python library implementation
2011-08-18T11:44:08  <delt0r> not sure why some simple theory always gets translated into massive class structs etc
2011-08-18T11:44:17  <delt0r> what was wrong with the phython one?
2011-08-18T11:45:02  <janzert> it fairly consistently gave results that were different from the online trueskill calculator
2011-08-18T11:45:16  <janzert> almost always with a lower skill given
2011-08-18T11:45:41  <delt0r> oh
2011-08-18T11:45:41  <janzert> so the overall skill of the population would continually drift lower over time
2011-08-18T11:45:50  <delt0r> well i would expect a difference
2011-08-18T11:45:57  <delt0r> but a "roundoff" difference
2011-08-18T11:46:09  <delt0r> not a bias
2011-08-18T11:46:14  <janzert> yeah
2011-08-18T11:46:19  <delt0r> thats a harder bug to find
2011-08-18T11:47:48  <janzert> I gotta run, if you get a chance to work on it or find anything be sure to update the bug
2011-08-18T11:49:28  <delt0r> will do
2011-08-18T11:58:26  <delt0r> Interesting --TrueSkill is not that much better than Elo... don't think it will fix the complaints
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2011-08-18T12:27:27  <janzert> delt0r: I rather think anything short of the ability to change human nature will fail to stop the complaints ;)
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2011-08-18T12:47:40  <delt0r> lol
2011-08-18T12:47:41  <delt0r> true
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2011-08-18T14:55:05  <bhasker_> delt0r it would be more useful if you could get a tcp server working!
2011-08-18T14:55:15  <bhasker_> that would probably bring more interest than anything else
2011-08-18T14:55:31  <bhasker_> the current setup is just not sufficient to get fast iterations on the bot performance
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2011-08-18T14:58:33  <delt0r> well if i did a jbotmanager... it would have a tcp server/client
2011-08-18T14:59:04  <delt0r> but a server "server" version is a little more work... not a lot --but some since you want scoring etc intergrated
2011-08-18T14:59:08  <delt0r> ranks etc
2011-08-18T14:59:27  <delt0r> at any rate i am at a another conference next week
2011-08-18T15:00:00  <delt0r> also i cant host a server
2011-08-18T15:00:15  <delt0r> mmm
2011-08-18T15:00:19  <delt0r> will think about it
2011-08-18T15:01:03  <delt0r> cpu load is easy with server stuff too...
2011-08-18T15:04:08  <bhasker_> :)
2011-08-18T15:04:16  <bhasker_> i would think even without proper scoring a server version would be useful
2011-08-18T15:04:44  <bhasker_> if nothing to be able to have a larger pool of bots to test your stuff against
2011-08-18T15:04:44  <bhasker_> scoring can always be retrofitted
2011-08-18T15:04:45  <bhasker_> etc
2011-08-18T15:04:49  <bhasker_> initially something that just does basic matchmaking and maintains win/loss ratios would also do
2011-08-18T15:05:15  <bhasker_> currently the bots are getting like 1 game every 2-3 hours
2011-08-18T15:05:16  <bhasker_> which makes it really hard to iterate over the bot
2011-08-18T15:05:27  <bhasker_> it takes a few days for the bot to reach its previous skill level where it starts to play similar opponents
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