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Here is a little job for you: http://ai-contest.com/forum/viewforum.php?f=4 :) 2011-08-29T07:44:36 *** delt0r_ has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-08-29T07:44:37 pow :) 2011-08-29T07:46:43 You're reallly fast guy :D 2011-08-29T07:47:55 i'm not your guy, sir :P 2011-08-29T07:51:51 In fact you are. Politicians are chosen to serve for people. But yes, they are forget about this all the time :P 2011-08-29T07:52:47 TIL i'm a politician :P 2011-08-29T07:53:27 TIL = Than I Like? 2011-08-29T07:57:00 today i learned 2011-08-29T07:58:47 *** chris___0076 is now known as chris_0076 2011-08-29T08:04:09 *** UncleVasya has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-08-29T08:08:03 *** UncleVasya has joined #aichallenge 2011-08-29T08:37:01 *** mathis has quit IRC (Quit: Page closed) 2011-08-29T08:41:29 *** mceier has joined #aichallenge 2011-08-29T09:10:20 *** |UncleVasya| <|UncleVasya|!kvirc@31.144.250.108> has joined #aichallenge 2011-08-29T09:12:24 *** UncleVasya has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-08-29T09:15:14 *** onensora has joined #aichallenge 2011-08-29T09:20:34 *** |UncleVasya| <|UncleVasya|!kvirc@31.144.250.108> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-08-29T09:40:01 *** amstan has joined #aichallenge 2011-08-29T09:40:01 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o amstan 2011-08-29T09:44:19 *** amstan has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2011-08-29T10:17:18 *** foRei has joined #aichallenge 2011-08-29T10:36:56 *** FireFly has joined #aichallenge 2011-08-29T10:48:41 *** sigh has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-08-29T10:55:51 *** mcstar has joined #aichallenge 2011-08-29T10:59:41 *** kaemo has joined #aichallenge 2011-08-29T11:14:22 I did not see in the rules about food spawning? 2011-08-29T11:14:54 I think its better to have in down in rules rather than just source 2011-08-29T11:23:17 How is eclipse for python support? 2011-08-29T11:26:40 *** a1k0n has joined #aichallenge 2011-08-29T11:28:03 *** boegel has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2011-08-29T11:30:52 it is spooky quiet in here :/ 2011-08-29T11:30:59 *** kaemo has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2011-08-29T11:37:14 Also i am having problems with python2.6 --as in i need 2.7 --however a lot of machines here don't have 2.7 (they have 2.6.6 and 3.x) 2011-08-29T11:37:14 *** mathis has joined #aichallenge 2011-08-29T11:40:45 delt0r: why you keep breaking the silence? 2011-08-29T11:40:50 :) 2011-08-29T11:41:18 yeah, 2.7 is needed but as far as i know, the stable 3.1 is also supported 2011-08-29T11:41:54 what do you mean regarding foos spawning? 2011-08-29T11:41:57 s->d 2011-08-29T11:45:01 well what are the "parameters" 2011-08-29T11:45:14 ie is a random change per turn etc... 2011-08-29T11:45:14 *** mleise has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.) 2011-08-29T11:45:38 It would be nice to be able to write a engine from spec rather than source... 2011-08-29T11:46:23 perhaps that is just my commercial programing experience tainting my world view ;| 2011-08-29T11:46:59 *** mleise has joined #aichallenge 2011-08-29T11:47:19 there are some ideas on the wiki of possible food spawning methods i believe 2011-08-29T11:47:30 i c 2011-08-29T11:47:31 but theres no clear specs on that 2011-08-29T11:47:43 so nothing final... hard to write it down in that case 2011-08-29T11:47:53 new proposals for the neverending story? :D 2011-08-29T11:47:59 lol 2011-08-29T11:48:18 design by a committee without a chairman 2011-08-29T11:48:29 so delt0r are you writing a hwole new engine for the tcp server? 2011-08-29T11:48:42 more or less... 2011-08-29T11:48:54 it just fits with my stuff better 2011-08-29T11:49:05 i thought the corporate world didnt like code duplication 2011-08-29T11:49:06 don't forget this is the fun part for me 2011-08-29T11:49:11 they don't 2011-08-29T11:49:11 i hope you thought enough about that decision. it is usually always better to reuse code 2011-08-29T11:49:22 hence why i now intend to never leave university 2011-08-29T11:49:31 :S 2011-08-29T11:49:37 Oh i did 2011-08-29T11:49:43 do you really want to drink beer in your whole life? 2011-08-29T11:49:57 ants is not exactly rocket science 2011-08-29T11:50:01 *sigh* did I tell you what happened when I rewrote my boss' code? 2011-08-29T11:50:17 Ironically I use to make rockets 2011-08-29T11:50:18 the boss offered his job? 2011-08-29T11:50:40 ? 2011-08-29T11:50:43 uh yes, that's what happened. 2011-08-29T11:50:49 :) 2011-08-29T11:50:49 oh 2011-08-29T11:50:50 really, 2011-08-29T11:50:53 ? 2011-08-29T11:51:11 well i turned down promotions a lot 2011-08-29T11:51:15 of course not. I had to kneel and promise never to do such blasphemy again 2011-08-29T11:51:15 like to be cutting code 2011-08-29T11:51:21 not talking in meetings 2011-08-29T11:51:24 poor you 2011-08-29T11:51:41 was a contractor 2011-08-29T11:52:11 one companay they even gave me a "Dirty Contractor" badge 2011-08-29T11:52:26 delt0r: ants i better than rocket science, easier to test your bots than your rockets, and the game isnt really easy 2011-08-29T11:52:43 engine wise the game is easy 2011-08-29T11:52:49 i wrote one too 2011-08-29T11:52:50 ai wise not 2011-08-29T11:53:06 especially the price for experimental material is cheaper in ants than rocket science 2011-08-29T11:53:09 I wrote on of the first ones... 2011-08-29T11:53:21 yea--but rockets blow up when they don't work 2011-08-29T11:53:37 well, i didnt implement everything, i used it to write my bot parrallel with it 2011-08-29T11:53:38 which is more fun that seg fault or null pointer 2011-08-29T11:53:52 anyway I find it interesting that 'rocket science' is an idiom in the english speaking world. i don't know anything similar in continental europe 2011-08-29T11:54:00 but basically i am wrting JAntManager 2011-08-29T11:54:16 that needs its own engine 2011-08-29T11:54:30 mleise: brain surgeon? 2011-08-29T11:54:46 i think we say that in hungarian, agysebesz 2011-08-29T11:54:48 no, doesn't ring a bell 2011-08-29T11:54:58 ok 2011-08-29T11:55:02 maybe nuclear physics 2011-08-29T11:55:14 nah 2011-08-29T11:55:15 mleise: I find that at least german has a similar idom to any english one with they same meaning --more or less 2011-08-29T11:55:36 ie where have you been, living under a rock 2011-08-29T11:55:51 the german is something like living on the other side of the moon 2011-08-29T11:56:06 delt0r: you are right, there is a smiliar one for almost everything, but not this particular one :D 2011-08-29T11:56:57 so , what is this jantmanager? 2011-08-29T11:57:05 Ok, I'm off playing some WWII online shooter. So much for the dark side of the moon *evilgrin*. DoD is really fun though ;) 2011-08-29T11:57:23 i quit fsp 2011-08-29T11:58:50 mcstar: The jbotManager was very popular in the last challenge 2011-08-29T11:59:11 its just a tool to watch games, manage bots, and "spectate" games on tcp 2011-08-29T11:59:41 the last one had a manual play option as well. 2011-08-29T11:59:43 i see, a point and click interface for everything? 2011-08-29T11:59:49 more or less 2011-08-29T12:00:07 unclevasya did something like this 2011-08-29T12:00:17 there where several 2011-08-29T12:00:18 a gui for running games 2011-08-29T12:00:23 for this one 2011-08-29T12:00:27 C++ and .net ones 2011-08-29T12:00:39 he used delphi 2011-08-29T12:00:47 Delphi rocks! 2011-08-29T12:00:49 mine was java so worked on more platforms and was easier to get going for the most part 2011-08-29T12:00:55 mleise: you are not here 2011-08-29T12:00:59 right 2011-08-29T12:01:18 delt0r: what im saying is that he wrote that for this contest 2011-08-29T12:01:26 right 2011-08-29T12:01:38 did you take a look? or it doesnt matter 2011-08-29T12:01:43 you do that anyways 2011-08-29T12:01:45 link? they website does not seem to have anythting 2011-08-29T12:01:52 i think its in the forums 2011-08-29T12:02:15 i dont like the idea too much, and dont like gui's so never downloaded it 2011-08-29T12:02:19 is it platform specific... i don't have anything that has windows 2011-08-29T12:02:23 and its for windows only 2011-08-29T12:02:29 yea 2011-08-29T12:02:53 windows only is no fun... 2011-08-29T12:03:05 also my last one had a cmd line interface too 2011-08-29T12:03:19 for batch testing your bots. 2011-08-29T12:03:24 I used that quite a bit 2011-08-29T12:03:34 so did you get anywhere with the tcp server part in the weekend? 2011-08-29T12:03:42 but mostly i think it was used as a game perviewer... 2011-08-29T12:03:58 Started... not finished 2011-08-29T12:04:14 also this year the js game view is a lot more solid 2011-08-29T12:04:20 game viewer 2011-08-29T12:04:32 yeah, its pretty good 2011-08-29T12:05:25 so, its gonna take some time for you to make the server if you make your own engine 2011-08-29T12:05:27 so i think such a tool will be used less... but meh... 2011-08-29T12:05:39 its the easy part... the bot is the hard part 2011-08-29T12:05:43 hope contest wont start until youre done 2011-08-29T12:06:13 well, the whole engine is not an easy task to write 2011-08-29T12:06:21 mcstar: not really...Last weekend ended up at the pub untill 5am 2011-08-29T12:06:22 it took quite some time for mcleopold 2011-08-29T12:06:27 didn't get much code done 2011-08-29T12:06:55 a few weekends should be enough 2011-08-29T12:07:35 of course I could just write a generic server that takes a cmd line for a engine 2011-08-29T12:07:53 but then i should use phython 2011-08-29T12:07:56 the biggest problem, why the contest hasnt started yet, is because key people dont have enough time to spend with the engine/trueskill 2011-08-29T12:08:05 yea 2011-08-29T12:08:12 looked at true skill 2011-08-29T12:08:12 so you will make quite a lot of effort to duplicate their work 2011-08-29T12:08:36 but the contest could be started sooner if you for example concentrated on issues at hand 2011-08-29T12:08:54 mcstar: Really the engine is not that complicated --I already wrote one when folks were only talking ants 2011-08-29T12:08:55 its python 2011-08-29T12:09:01 not phython 2011-08-29T12:09:03 lol 2011-08-29T12:09:36 yeah, sure its your call 2011-08-29T12:10:11 a huge amount of the time has been spend *debating* not coding 2011-08-29T12:10:12 and yes, its still sommer, now i'd be better to start the contest when its colder 2011-08-29T12:10:15 spent 2011-08-29T12:10:24 o->u 2011-08-29T12:10:43 i hate typos 2011-08-29T12:11:20 im not decided on the matter to correct each and every one that i find or just leave them there 2011-08-29T12:12:32 im stuck with my bot, havent touched it in more than a month 2011-08-29T12:13:01 i tried some complicated things, i ended up makeing a snake-like bot 2011-08-29T12:13:35 but i think a succesfull bot needs to be simpler than mine, and should really utilize the board 2011-08-29T12:13:44 indeed 2011-08-29T12:13:48 now i have to exmplain what i mean by that 2011-08-29T12:14:09 there is some interesting strategy possibilities 2011-08-29T12:14:35 i think a lot of bots are board-based, ie, they look out for neigboring cells, check cell status and such 2011-08-29T12:14:42 mine started from a higher level 2011-08-29T12:14:58 Mine is global ... 2011-08-29T12:15:03 i have a fsm in it, that makes snakes, and has a recursive resolver logic 2011-08-29T12:15:17 see 2011-08-29T12:15:28 already more complicated than a simple engine 2011-08-29T12:15:30 :D 2011-08-29T12:15:32 plus it uses the hungarian algorithm(perfect matching) and a* path finding 2011-08-29T12:15:51 I only have local a* 2011-08-29T12:16:07 but all in all it makes some mistakes, and its hard to debug 2011-08-29T12:16:16 so im thinking of a complete new bot 2011-08-29T12:16:23 *** bhasker has quit IRC (Quit: bhasker) 2011-08-29T12:16:51 honestly, i thought about changing my languge 2011-08-29T12:16:58 but dont tell this to anyone 2011-08-29T12:17:28 what are you using? 2011-08-29T12:17:33 cl 2011-08-29T12:17:54 but if a board based logic is really succefull, then im considering c/c++ 2011-08-29T12:18:15 *** ibdknox has joined #aichallenge 2011-08-29T12:18:17 the problem with lisp, is that you can make what you want 2011-08-29T12:18:21 god i hate c/c++ 2011-08-29T12:18:37 but sometimes what i want, turns out complicated 2011-08-29T12:18:37 Had to use em a lot 2011-08-29T12:18:57 but still don't like em... in fact i like some asm better 2011-08-29T12:19:04 hm 2011-08-29T12:19:09 i only read about asm 2011-08-29T12:19:10 but hay 2011-08-29T12:19:11 never used it 2011-08-29T12:19:16 whatever ... 2011-08-29T12:19:24 huh? 2011-08-29T12:19:29 dont' really get into lang wars 2011-08-29T12:19:47 never understood why some take it so personally 2011-08-29T12:19:50 i dont like the smell of napalm in the morning either 2011-08-29T12:20:29 mmmm 2011-08-29T12:20:32 trust me, im not going into flame wars over this matter 2011-08-29T12:20:32 napalm 2011-08-29T12:20:47 they call it something else 2011-08-29T12:20:48 now 2011-08-29T12:21:02 so then they can say "we are not using napalm" 2011-08-29T12:21:18 its a quote from apocalypse now 2011-08-29T12:21:25 I know 2011-08-29T12:21:32 my brothers fav movie 2011-08-29T12:21:50 "your either surfing, or your fighting" 2011-08-29T12:21:57 ah, ok, i want sure if i remembered it correctly, ive seen it long ago 2011-08-29T12:23:28 so, what lang. do you indend to use? 2011-08-29T12:23:31 t 2011-08-29T12:23:40 tend to use java a lot 2011-08-29T12:23:48 but i would love to use more lisp 2011-08-29T12:23:49 so for the bot too 2011-08-29T12:23:54 yea 2011-08-29T12:24:05 just don't have time for anything else 2011-08-29T12:24:17 I know java --and its api pretty well now 2011-08-29T12:24:30 sure, use what you know best 2011-08-29T12:24:31 all my work stuff is in right now 2011-08-29T12:24:43 well ironically i don't really like java 2011-08-29T12:24:51 just like it more than c/c++ 2011-08-29T12:25:18 and i need to support Sun/linux/mac/windows 2011-08-29T12:25:43 also if you don't write it wrong, performance can be pretty good too 2011-08-29T12:25:58 but then that goes for a lot of langs 2011-08-29T12:26:09 yeah, i was surprised when i saw benchmarks, java was pretty damn fast 2011-08-29T12:26:24 my current code replaces some C 2011-08-29T12:26:29 is more than 5x faster 2011-08-29T12:26:55 but im a scientist, so im not really interested in corporate languages, and i can choose whatever i want 2011-08-29T12:26:57 but then if someone sees a slow java program --they think its java 2011-08-29T12:27:10 if they see a slow C program, they know its the coder 2011-08-29T12:27:25 :) 2011-08-29T12:28:19 mcstar: me too -- and for a great many things, raw performance is not the limmiting factor 2011-08-29T12:28:22 dev time is 2011-08-29T12:28:31 for simulations we use c, obviously, fortran could be a choice, but im not going to learn it 2011-08-29T12:28:44 fortan should die 2011-08-29T12:28:50 ;) 2011-08-29T12:28:50 maybe 2011-08-29T12:28:58 im not against it 2011-08-29T12:29:16 bleh -- only physics folks use nowdays 2011-08-29T12:29:18 but form a small exposition, i made up my mind that i dont like it 2011-08-29T12:29:26 that would fit 2011-08-29T12:29:30 :) 2011-08-29T12:29:36 well its stuck in 1965 2011-08-29T12:29:42 but its fast 2011-08-29T12:29:46 and even lisp was already ahead of the curve 2011-08-29T12:29:49 has cuda support 2011-08-29T12:29:51 so is asm 2011-08-29T12:30:04 has hpc capabilities 2011-08-29T12:30:06 that is not enough IMO 2011-08-29T12:30:29 i dont think its a beautiful language 2011-08-29T12:30:35 just about everything has hpc 2011-08-29T12:30:57 i have a 500 core cluster here 2011-08-29T12:31:12 and 2 more 250+ core cluster at other campuses i can use 2011-08-29T12:31:17 we have couple of 200's 2011-08-29T12:31:22 and teslas and fermis 2011-08-29T12:31:22 I use java and --c 2011-08-29T12:31:30 yea we have those too 2011-08-29T12:31:44 but i am out of the loop now... was one of my students 2011-08-29T12:32:02 good if the problem fits the hardware 2011-08-29T12:32:08 i just wrote a software that runs 120-140 times faster on a c1060 than on a single core 2011-08-29T12:32:18 not convinced about the longevity however 2011-08-29T12:32:33 longevity of what? 2011-08-29T12:32:46 GPU type processing 2011-08-29T12:32:56 well, it amazing 2011-08-29T12:32:58 s 2011-08-29T12:33:03 really 2011-08-29T12:33:05 when you have CPU with 16+ core 2011-08-29T12:33:25 its still gonna be faster for number crunching 2011-08-29T12:33:26 not convinced it will last... think general process will "catch up" 2011-08-29T12:33:32 no 2011-08-29T12:33:33 it cant 2011-08-29T12:33:40 :) 2011-08-29T12:33:49 yea--that is what everyone said about RISC 10 years ago 2011-08-29T12:34:05 just imagine that if general can be better, so can specialized units too 2011-08-29T12:34:21 but for such a narrow range of problems 2011-08-29T12:34:29 that is the problem... 2011-08-29T12:34:47 i mean, in some applications we really need fast arithmetic, and we dont want generic processing, this will stay the same 2011-08-29T12:34:53 so a 500+ core cluster is more flexable and hence a better investment for a department. 2011-08-29T12:35:35 it really depends on the problem 2011-08-29T12:35:36 and once the GPU market shifts to more generic cores, there will not be the economies of scale 2011-08-29T12:35:43 So i remain unconvinced... 2011-08-29T12:35:51 I do think that right now it works well 2011-08-29T12:36:19 thats enough, in the worst case, this arhitecture will pave the way for many-core precessing in genela 2011-08-29T12:36:22 general 2011-08-29T12:36:26 we see about a 10-50x speed up 2011-08-29T12:36:28 i mean people will get used to it 2011-08-29T12:36:51 well i was doing multicore coding more than 12 years ago 2011-08-29T12:37:04 with mpi? 2011-08-29T12:37:05 the conection machine is more than 20 years old IIRC 2011-08-29T12:37:18 VP whatever 2011-08-29T12:37:22 the other one 2011-08-29T12:37:25 on SGI 2011-08-29T12:37:27 openmp? 2011-08-29T12:37:45 no 2011-08-29T12:37:53 well, im not that old 2011-08-29T12:38:31 imagine, that these gpu's will have integrated network controllers 2011-08-29T12:38:40 maybe a cpu integrated in them too 2011-08-29T12:38:51 i think theres some research in this direction 2011-08-29T12:39:02 when you conntect those together 2011-08-29T12:39:21 there has been a lot of work on this sort of thing 2011-08-29T12:39:23 the arithemtic density will increse, and will beat cpu clasters more 2011-08-29T12:39:25 a *lot* 2011-08-29T12:39:35 u 2011-08-29T12:39:50 also with faster clocking things change a lot 2011-08-29T12:40:12 ie feeding --or distance signals travel dominate performance 2011-08-29T12:40:12 explain 2011-08-29T12:40:27 right now density is limited by heat disipation 2011-08-29T12:40:49 well, yeah, signal travels with finite speed 2011-08-29T12:41:01 in 1ns (1GHz) light can only travel ~30cm... 2011-08-29T12:41:06 but then you can imagine a 3d semiconductor structure 2011-08-29T12:41:22 the signal travels quite a bit slower than that... 2011-08-29T12:41:30 about 2-3times slower 2011-08-29T12:41:33 IIRC 2011-08-29T12:41:58 mcstar: we would have 3d by now if you could get rid of the heat 2011-08-29T12:42:02 but we can't 2011-08-29T12:42:16 well, they will 2011-08-29T12:42:30 obviously, the moore curve needs to be continued 2011-08-29T12:42:38 why? 2011-08-29T12:42:55 why not? 2011-08-29T12:43:00 it was true in the past 2011-08-29T12:43:04 we are at 20nm --that law only talks about component density 2011-08-29T12:43:06 i can only assume it will hold 2011-08-29T12:43:20 Past performance is no indication of future gains 2011-08-29T12:43:43 given that 20nm is about 400 atoms accross 2011-08-29T12:43:55 and clock cycles have not incressed 2011-08-29T12:43:55 obviously one can only extrapolate from the past 2011-08-29T12:44:11 we need some kind of "shift" like perhaps ... more cores 2011-08-29T12:44:29 well, we had that a couple of years ago 2011-08-29T12:44:58 yea--so now we have a data point that shows that mMores law is not a given 2011-08-29T12:45:06 what? 2011-08-29T12:45:13 next is either better heat managment 2011-08-29T12:45:13 no, it still holds 2011-08-29T12:45:16 lol 2011-08-29T12:45:22 no it didn't 2011-08-29T12:45:36 yeah, it does hold 2011-08-29T12:46:23 whatever 2011-08-29T12:47:07 the really big breakthrough will be, when ohmic dissipations will be mimimized, or electron-based technology will be repalced with ligh/plasmons 2011-08-29T12:47:24 (excuse my typos) 2011-08-29T12:47:53 and then, maybe, 3d structures will be possbile 2011-08-29T12:48:06 *** berak has quit IRC (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.84 [SeaMonkey 2.0a3/20090223135443]) 2011-08-29T12:49:45 mcstar: I worked with the author to make it run on wine 2011-08-29T12:50:05 referring to "it only runs on windows" a few pages up 2011-08-29T12:50:19 do you mean the author of the car that runs on water? 2011-08-29T12:50:27 why do you want to put wine in it? 2011-08-29T12:50:45 ah, not the car then 2011-08-29T12:50:59 well, you see, im undereducated in these matters :) 2011-08-29T12:51:38 or, maybe, i lied, or i dont consider something running under wine something worth mentioning 2011-08-29T12:51:49 Seriously, he write the app in Delphi as a programming beginner I suspect and Delphi produces Windows binaries only. So I helped him make it work on Linux, because he was well aware that his program would be of little use when most of use use Linux 2011-08-29T12:51:54 *wrote 2011-08-29T12:53:03 so mleise what's your take on the future of computing? 2011-08-29T12:53:04 I had no more problems with it since then. You give it the tools directory on your disk and select the bots and maps from a combo box 2011-08-29T12:54:09 Looks like Google is driving the whole industry somewhat. So we will see proprietary software like Word run in browsers only in the future 2011-08-29T12:55:12 Installation is far too complicated for users in the future. They just browse to their app store, click on Word and have all the Web 2.0 integrated as well 2011-08-29T12:55:26 well, they cant take Tex away from us 2011-08-29T12:55:47 Tex will be something for ubergeeks 2011-08-29T12:56:00 im wating for some super-duper computer virus to kill their brains 2011-08-29T12:56:02 like any virtual console window 2011-08-29T12:56:23 mleise: but i meant hardware wise 2011-08-29T12:56:24 omg he is a hacker! he has a black window with glyphs open! 2011-08-29T12:56:42 oh i c. i have no idea yet. let me make up my mind quickly 2011-08-29T12:56:49 :) 2011-08-29T12:57:00 i think thats the attitude of god too 2011-08-29T12:57:00 Raytracing chips for example. 2011-08-29T12:57:04 are you two friends? 2011-08-29T12:57:16 lol, no we avoid each other 2011-08-29T12:57:36