2011-09-07T00:16:11 *** dvladim has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2011-09-07T00:21:23 *** antimatroid has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 258 seconds) 2011-09-07T00:29:48 *** SimonT has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2011-09-07T00:30:32 *** SimonT has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T01:07:42 mcleopold was working on the matcup stuff earlier :/ 2011-09-07T01:07:48 matchup even 2011-09-07T01:10:37 *** ArchMonkey has quit IRC (Quit: ArchMonkey) 2011-09-07T01:52:47 *** onensora has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2011-09-07T01:56:22 *** onensora has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T01:59:19 *** berak has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T02:36:19 *** delt0r_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2011-09-07T02:44:41 *** antimatroid has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T02:48:49 *** delt0r_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T03:21:14 *** aerique has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T03:23:21 *** Palmik has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T03:27:27 *** jako has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T03:31:11 *** ltriant has quit IRC (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep) 2011-09-07T04:27:48 *** SimonT has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2011-09-07T04:28:31 *** SimonT has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T04:29:27 *** mceier has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T04:33:14 aichallenge: Marco Leise epsilon * r27f7492 / (8 files): regression: fog of war is not transparent at first / colors: swapped red and green, moved brow to position 10 / removed: clear fog button (the others work as toggles now) - http://git.io/kbQaiA 2011-09-07T04:55:08 aichallenge: Marco Leise epsilon * re32ceac / (2 files): timeline scale will now automatically scale with available space and replay duration to the next power of two such that the spacing is at least 2 pixels - http://git.io/Xs4TaQ 2011-09-07T05:38:13 *** patrisk has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T05:44:54 *** sigh has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T06:03:33 it might be time for me to watch the wire 2011-09-07T06:03:38 anyone got any movie/show suggestions? 2011-09-07T06:03:44 i've been saving the wire for a rainy day 2011-09-07T06:12:05 *** patrisk has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-09-07T06:16:55 Let's do two player games only. 2011-09-07T06:19:07 mleise: ? 2011-09-07T06:19:59 It's more interesting to watch games with just you and your arch enemy 2011-09-07T06:20:26 And these matchup and ranking problems could be avoided 2011-09-07T06:21:20 hmmm :( 2011-09-07T06:21:26 :) 2011-09-07T06:21:27 i would have liked at least up to 4 or 5 players 2011-09-07T06:21:34 up to unlimited 2011-09-07T06:21:45 and i was originally very opposed to moving away from 2 player games :P 2011-09-07T06:21:53 why not put all players in one game? 2011-09-07T06:22:01 yeah 2011-09-07T06:22:26 not enough resources, maps would need to be LARGE which bots couldn't handle, too much noise etc. etc. :P 2011-09-07T06:23:39 I whish I could make the games as entertaining to watch as Planet Wars matches! 2011-09-07T06:23:48 yeah 2011-09-07T06:24:00 even tron was more fun to watch :\ 2011-09-07T06:24:07 really? :O 2011-09-07T06:24:07 well, maybe not 2011-09-07T06:24:17 i'm comparing the ants bots to the best tron bots 2011-09-07T06:24:21 a bit of an unfair comparison 2011-09-07T06:24:25 hey! nukes, mines, heat targeting missles, and such! 2011-09-07T06:24:25 :D 2011-09-07T06:25:00 (was a joke) 2011-09-07T06:31:39 We had some funny ideas in the forum. But for simplicity sake much didn't make it. 2011-09-07T06:34:07 Oh btw... does anyone want to write a map editor? We could use some nice hand-crafted maps 2011-09-07T06:42:47 sorry to disturb you, mleise , but the latest push seems broken with firefox(3.6.7 / 6.0.2) http://i.imgur.com/MkG4Y.png 2011-09-07T06:45:20 I use 3.6.20 and don't see a problem on the server 2011-09-07T06:45:35 berak: How can I reproduce this? 2011-09-07T06:49:19 good question, seems to happen with the server and locally: http://i.imgur.com/RzWpP.png 2011-09-07T06:51:03 the mouse leaves a trail, and everything off-center is black 2011-09-07T06:55:08 ok, I'll try to revert the rendering mode to default. thought copy mode would make it faster. but if that is the cause of gfx gliches like this... did you try reloading the visualizer (i.e. clear cache?) 2011-09-07T06:55:54 let me do that 2011-09-07T06:56:11 oh wait, now I see artifacts as well in Opera. 2011-09-07T06:56:41 same 2011-09-07T06:57:55 it's only today's changes worked 24 hrs before 2011-09-07T07:00:09 berak: does this game work for you? http://aichallengebeta.hypertriangle.com/visualizer.php?game=158410 2011-09-07T07:01:34 no, same problems. mouse trails, black sides, fog only on the outside 2011-09-07T07:04:02 my vintage seamonkey can handle it, but not ff 2011-09-07T07:05:28 Yeah I should revert to alpha blending mode. it seems like browsers all handle the non-default blending modes differently. I was hoping that a simple plain overwrite mode would make things faster 2011-09-07T07:08:30 Actually it slowed down Opera by solid 50% *g*. Damnit. 2011-09-07T07:08:33 started ubuntu in a vm, old ff3.5.3 there -works fine. so maybe a windows problem only 2011-09-07T07:08:49 *** mathis has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T07:09:32 *** mathis has quit IRC (Client Quit) 2011-09-07T07:10:14 aichallenge: Marco Leise epsilon * r85a6202 / (2 files): regesssion: graphics glitches and mouse trails / regression: game/player link is not clickable in non-interactive mode - http://git.io/82Xlyw 2011-09-07T07:10:34 oh god, so awesome 2011-09-07T07:10:41 zsnes and super mario world rom 2011-09-07T07:10:49 berak: ok I'll update the server once more :) 2011-09-07T07:11:10 antimatroid: You should try the Jurassic Park SNES rom :) 2011-09-07T07:11:36 mleise: super mario world is pretty much my childhood game :P 2011-09-07T07:12:30 I didn't have addictive childhood games. Accolade Formula 1, Flight Simulator 4, QBasic Gorillaz 2011-09-07T07:12:56 Well, Zelda - Links awakening was pretty addictive later 2011-09-07T07:13:58 *** fgump has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T07:14:10 And it kinda pushed the Game Boy to the limits with full screen images, polyphonic music and effects. 2011-09-07T07:17:01 berak: It should work now, like before. 2011-09-07T07:18:29 *** fgump has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2011-09-07T07:20:54 pulled 3 files, cleared the cache, still the same 2011-09-07T07:23:09 but it works with aichallenge now 2011-09-07T07:24:42 so, problem on my side only, thanks anyway! 2011-09-07T07:33:10 ahhh it's all ok now. (my little webserver was caching the old version) thanks again! 2011-09-07T07:47:46 *** b_jonas has left #aichallenge 2011-09-07T08:28:23 *** rabidus has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2011-09-07T08:39:54 *** rabidus has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T08:40:34 *** mathis has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T08:56:59 *** eashoka has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T08:59:42 *** jako has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2011-09-07T09:11:55 *** mcstar has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T09:42:23 *** zoz has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T09:57:19 would someone be so nice, and test this ? : https://github.com/berak/ants-tcp 2011-09-07T09:59:35 i'm shure, this contains bugs... 2011-09-07T09:59:37 I will try to get to it before i go home 2011-09-07T09:59:41 that is funny 2011-09-07T09:59:45 berak 2011-09-07T09:59:50 *** mathis has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2011-09-07T09:59:55 btw berak nice to see youre working on it 2011-09-07T10:00:01 thanks ;) 2011-09-07T10:02:20 If debugging is the process of removing bugs, then programming must be the process of putting them in. [Edsger Dijkstra] 2011-09-07T10:03:17 i know it's a joke but it doesn't really work :P 2011-09-07T10:03:22 the opposite of debugging is bugging 2011-09-07T10:03:34 *** UncleVasya has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T10:04:44 *** MikeTheAnt has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T10:16:22 *** fgump has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T10:21:49 it seems this contest isnt really about debugging for me, i usually spend my time thinking what to actually program 2011-09-07T10:22:52 hi all, there has been no games played today? for anyone? 2011-09-07T10:22:53 python taught me otherwise ;( 2011-09-07T10:23:28 i played several today 2011-09-07T10:24:44 in fact i just started another one 2011-09-07T10:25:00 I had a game early morning and since then it has said: "88 players are ahead of you. The current game rate is about 0.0 players per minute. Your next game could take awhile..." 2011-09-07T10:25:03 my bot spits out ppm images of the influence maps 2011-09-07T10:25:28 i think it is correct 2011-09-07T10:25:36 mcstar: yes, it's a contest about strategy :) 2011-09-07T10:26:11 not ones ability to play a game, but how they can come up with a strategy to play it (and then with bugs how well you can implement said strategy) 2011-09-07T10:26:49 my strategy will be very happy in the end 2011-09-07T10:27:53 antimatroid: what do you say to this? couple of the top players should make their executables available, so that others could match their bots locally, so they would stop complaining till the contest starts? 2011-09-07T10:28:25 nah, just have them wait 2011-09-07T10:28:29 :) 2011-09-07T10:28:36 if a tcp server went up they'd stop complaining :P 2011-09-07T10:28:56 yeah, i guess, bereak how advanced yours is now? 2011-09-07T10:28:59 once tcp up the main server is useless until the final contest except for bragging rights imo 2011-09-07T10:29:01 hell berak 2011-09-07T10:29:15 that was hello, i guess ? 2011-09-07T10:29:35 nope 2011-09-07T10:29:37 no, i made a type, and i usually prefix the corrections with "hell" 2011-09-07T10:29:41 he thinks you're going to hell :P 2011-09-07T10:29:56 berak: this is a hello: hi! 2011-09-07T10:30:02 i think it's quite better than the last one 2011-09-07T10:30:16 but, hell you never know 2011-09-07T10:30:24 do you think it can be hosted? 2011-09-07T10:30:39 hosted ? 2011-09-07T10:30:54 theres was a guy who wanted to run the whole system, you should tell him to try it out 2011-09-07T10:30:55 *** aerique has quit IRC (Quit: ...) 2011-09-07T10:31:02 yep, hosted 2011-09-07T10:31:06 fired up 2011-09-07T10:31:09 run 2011-09-07T10:31:10 ahh, obeleh, i think 2011-09-07T10:31:14 try it out 2011-09-07T10:31:25 maybe i cant remember 2011-09-07T10:32:20 hell typo 2011-09-07T10:33:27 at least those 'moved blocked' things got fixed, and running multitheraded, a game only takes 1 or three minutes 2011-09-07T10:34:41 i dont think it matters how fast the engine is, isnt it true that if the bots take their time, than that will be much greater than the time the engine needs to calculate the next turn? 2011-09-07T10:35:06 yep 2011-09-07T10:35:07 it would still be nice if the engine isn't ridiculously slow 2011-09-07T10:35:13 *** delt0r_ has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) 2011-09-07T10:35:38 antimatroid: i think you must make an effort to make it really slow 2011-09-07T10:36:08 (from my brief experience, but true, that engine wasnt complete) 2011-09-07T10:37:27 on the other hand, im good at slowing down my bot 2011-09-07T10:37:49 20 iterations of diffusion is pretty slow 2011-09-07T10:39:12 are there any known buggs in the server now conserning the selection process of ants to play games? Seems like some ants don't get that many matches. 2011-09-07T10:40:07 MikeTheAnt: yes, they are being investigated 2011-09-07T10:40:29 - some typos.. :) Ok, good to know. Thought my ants where lazy.. 2011-09-07T10:40:31 *** mathis has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T10:45:21 mcstar: you're trying diffusion now ? 2011-09-07T10:46:00 did pretty good pathfinding for me, but i could never build some strategy on top of it 2011-09-07T10:49:42 *** delt0r_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T10:49:58 berak: well yeah, im diffusing the influence of my ants over the map 2011-09-07T10:50:17 i read about these a bit, and it seems they are a basic RTS/AI technique 2011-09-07T10:50:41 yea 2011-09-07T10:50:49 I have tried them in my RTS 2011-09-07T10:51:15 "influence maps" is similar 2011-09-07T10:51:39 im mentioned that earlier didnt I? 2011-09-07T10:51:40 was not so impressed tbh --but then my RTS have very open terrain 2011-09-07T10:51:55 mcstar: sorry missed it 2011-09-07T10:52:32 another kind of map is the potential map /method 2011-09-07T10:52:57 but as far as i understand its for navigating and instead of pathfinding 2011-09-07T10:53:10 But you know you can "solve" the diffusion very efficiently with supergrid methods 2011-09-07T10:53:20 so im using influence maps(trying to) to make strategic decisions 2011-09-07T10:53:28 The math is more or less the same 2011-09-07T10:53:35 idk 2011-09-07T10:53:41 i mean ive just tried it 2011-09-07T10:53:46 doing that recursively was gross slow, but then i found some old double-buffering code for that 2011-09-07T10:54:16 double-buffering is a fancy term for not in-place calculation 2011-09-07T10:54:27 hehe 2011-09-07T10:54:36 and its not recursively but iteratively right? 2011-09-07T10:54:46 *** foRei has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T10:54:49 that's the point 2011-09-07T10:55:02 ? 2011-09-07T10:55:04 supergrid methods can solve the diffusion equation (potential equation) with log(n) iterations 2011-09-07T10:55:10 did you try it recursively? 2011-09-07T10:55:16 i mean why=how? 2011-09-07T10:55:22 why/how? 2011-09-07T10:55:55 delt0r: a moment, seems interesting but first lets execute berak 2011-09-07T10:55:57 :D 2011-09-07T10:56:03 * berak googles supergrid 2011-09-07T10:56:19 no, berak answers my questions 2011-09-07T10:56:30 hell, don't shoot me, i'm only the piano player ! 2011-09-07T10:56:36 :) 2011-09-07T10:56:54 piano? why not bass? 2011-09-07T10:56:58 or drums... 2011-09-07T10:56:59 ;) 2011-09-07T10:57:04 you said: that's the point 2011-09-07T10:57:10 what is? 2011-09-07T10:57:23 you wrote: recursively, im stuck there 2011-09-07T10:57:28 what is recursive? 2011-09-07T10:57:44 iterating over a grid (double buffer) is only dependant on the map size 2011-09-07T10:58:06 while recursing over your ants ... 2011-09-07T10:58:07 or you can treat your map like a graph :) 2011-09-07T10:59:26 hm 2011-09-07T10:59:41 influence maps != potential map 2011-09-07T10:59:43 s 2011-09-07T11:00:10 its not like evaluating a functions per ant then summing and writing it for every cell 2011-09-07T11:00:12 ahh, k 2011-09-07T11:00:20 -s 2011-09-07T11:00:42 the influence must flow you see 2011-09-07T11:00:44 mcstar: they are in fact very related... 2011-09-07T11:00:50 *** MikeTheAnt has quit IRC (Quit: Page closed) 2011-09-07T11:00:59 in fact the PDE is the same type 2011-09-07T11:00:59 theres a source, and there are obstacles in the map 2011-09-07T11:01:09 and the influence flows/dissipates 2011-09-07T11:01:19 yea.. there is a reason we have "potental flows" 2011-09-07T11:02:06 delt0r: theres a difference: time dependent diffusion vs iteratively solving the poisson equation 2011-09-07T11:02:09 the navier stokes equation reduces to Poisson equation in the invisid incompressible limit 2011-09-07T11:02:34 no, to the euler equation 2011-09-07T11:02:39 inviscid 2011-09-07T11:03:19 yea--you solve potentail flow... the you have a grad operator... sweet... 2011-09-07T11:03:53 what i really mean, is that the 2 processes are fundamentally different also, they seem similar 2011-09-07T11:03:55 mcstar: true with time dependance --however you can just add a time dimension... and use a "upwinding" 2011-09-07T11:04:20 im not really clear on the AI side though 2011-09-07T11:04:45 mcstar: the math can be --in many cases-- to be more or less ==... hence can use efficient solvers 2011-09-07T11:05:09 i read 2 tutorials, on the same thing, one used influence diffusion, the other just summed values on the map i think 2011-09-07T11:05:45 ? summed values? 2011-09-07T11:06:00 bit vague there 2011-09-07T11:06:31 the may reason for using some kind of diffusion, is that the resulting influence map will contain the geometry of the real map, like obstacles, corridors and such 2011-09-07T11:06:58 *** sigh has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-09-07T11:07:04 like evaluating a superposable potential 2011-09-07T11:07:19 which depends only on the distance 2011-09-07T11:07:35 may->main 2011-09-07T11:07:37 with many sources 2011-09-07T11:07:39 *** Kingpin13 has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T11:07:41 yes? 2011-09-07T11:07:48 sure 2011-09-07T11:08:23 right so solving that with summation at each square is expensive compared to these grid methods 2011-09-07T11:08:44 if you only need it for a few squares... then well it works better 2011-09-07T11:09:13 not just that, when your potential is distance based, you essentially ignore obstacles(you can choose a defualt value for them) 2011-09-07T11:09:48 *** FireFly has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T11:09:48 just imagine a wall between a source and a test point 2011-09-07T11:09:55 *** FireFly has quit IRC (Changing host) 2011-09-07T11:09:55 *** FireFly has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T11:10:17 now try diffusion, or simply evaluate the potential as a function of the distance 2011-09-07T11:10:27 potential/PDE type things work with obstacles... they are "negative" sources... in a grid method, potential or flow is propogated through the grid 2011-09-07T11:10:27 you can clearly see the problem 2011-09-07T11:11:33 it seems you dont get what i say 2011-09-07T11:11:57 nvm 2011-09-07T11:12:07 The trick with propagation through the grid --is that these super grids propagate information over the grid faster.. 2011-09-07T11:12:53 Oh i do... this does work... it is done with complicated geometry fluid and potential solvers all the time 2011-09-07T11:13:09 look em up 2011-09-07T11:13:11 you see, you dont :) 2011-09-07T11:13:22 what im saying is not really a potential solver 2011-09-07T11:13:32 niether is a fluid solver 2011-09-07T11:13:42 but its simmilar 2011-09-07T11:13:53 just get a function with compact support, put them in the sources, and sum up the values on the map 2011-09-07T11:14:02 the FDM PDE system of equations 2011-09-07T11:14:30 delt0r: i just wrote an fdm solver for the gpu 2011-09-07T11:14:36 but im not talking about that 2011-09-07T11:16:11 so this primitive method can be used too, for example to make ants spread out evenly in a volume(map) 2011-09-07T11:16:55 and it can be made more accurate, if you dont use the distance function, but actually use a pathfinding-based distance 2011-09-07T11:17:09 i.e. you dont cut through obstacles 2011-09-07T11:18:05 now delt0r pls give me a hint how to search for this supergrid method 2011-09-07T11:18:25 do they use this for solving relaxational problems? 2011-09-07T11:19:04 or is it rather a computer-science method? 2011-09-07T11:22:59 A Super-Grid-Scale Model for Simulating 2011-09-07T11:23:06 Compressible Flow on Unbounded Domains 2011-09-07T11:23:09 sorry... busy... 2011-09-07T11:23:13 delt0r: is that it? 2011-09-07T11:23:23 got the name wrong Multigrid 2011-09-07T11:23:29 ah 2011-09-07T11:23:32 anyway...chat later 2011-09-07T11:23:36 gtg 2011-09-07T11:23:49 bb 2011-09-07T11:24:56 *** McLeopold has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T11:25:12 @later tell janzert workers down again 2011-09-07T11:25:12 McLeopold: Yes master! 2011-09-07T11:41:24 *** Accoun has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2011-09-07T11:42:02 *** McLeopold has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.) 2011-09-07T11:46:48 *** dvladim has joined #aichallenge 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delt0r_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds) 2011-09-07T18:49:42 *** delt0r_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T18:51:32 *** Eruonen has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 250 seconds) 2011-09-07T18:52:28 *** onensora has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T19:07:06 *** spacebat has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T19:09:39 hi, I've been to the website and there is no mention of this year's competition 2011-09-07T19:09:57 is there a better URL to find out where things are at? 2011-09-07T19:10:15 @beta 2011-09-07T19:10:16 antimatroid: beta could be http://aichallengebeta.hypertriangle.com/. 2011-09-07T19:10:38 ok so the contest hasn't started 2011-09-07T19:10:42 thanks 2011-09-07T19:15:50 no, it hasn't started 2011-09-07T19:54:28 timeout with only 101 ants? http://aichallengebeta.hypertriangle.com/visualizer.php?game=163853 FlagCapper should look over the code :) 2011-09-07T20:16:41 *** Apophis_ has joined #aichallenge 2011-09-07T20:16:56 janzert: ping 2011-09-07T20:17:38 *** Apophis has quit IRC 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