2011-11-16T00:01:00  <bmh> bugger. my old professor pulled down his lecture notes
2011-11-16T00:01:41  <bmh> Is there a cheaper way to do distance queries versus paths?
2011-11-16T00:02:36  <a1k0n> they are one in the same as far as i am concerned
2011-11-16T00:03:26  <bmh> it might be possible to get cheaper approximate distance queries with a single multi-source BFS
2011-11-16T00:06:53  <a1k0n> how is that approximate?
2011-11-16T00:07:46  <bmh> because I'm interested in all pairs, not just the pairs I'm BFSing from
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2011-11-16T00:11:20  <bmh> oh. duh. This goes back to an earlier idea. I think I can exploit unit-ness and manhattan-ness and planarity to get exact all pairs queries with something like O(n^2) preprocessing work
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2011-11-16T01:03:18  <CIA-53> aichallenge: janzert epsilon * r2a16baf / worker/engine.py : Check for final bot output after pausing - http://git.io/8rcrgQ
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2011-11-16T01:12:55  <janzert> amstan: ping?
2011-11-16T01:20:16  <BenJackson> bmh: remember the n in Floyd-Warshall is nodes, which means grid squares, which makes it n^6 by map width
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2011-11-16T01:28:58  <janzert> @later tell amstan I disabled the planetwars apache configuration on the archive server, it basically caused the server to become an open http proxy which was already being utilized at a rate of several MBps :/
2011-11-16T01:28:58  <contestbot> janzert: As you wish.
2011-11-16T01:33:52  <BenJackson> wait until I finish downloading this episode of Lost with the pw site
2011-11-16T01:35:02  <janzert> :)
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2011-11-16T02:50:33  <a1k0n> apparently i shouldn't be honoring the turntime on tcp or my turns take forever
2011-11-16T02:50:59  <analyst74> it was you!
2011-11-16T02:51:25  <analyst74> j/k, I don't watch tcp play time. :)
2011-11-16T03:02:10  <a1k0n> wow.  apparently the extra CPU time paid off though: http://ants.fluxid.pl/replay.835
2011-11-16T03:02:13  <a1k0n> that game took like a half hour
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2011-11-16T03:36:24  <Blkt> good morning everyone
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2011-11-16T03:57:27  <bqf> a1k0n: if you don't mind my asking - what do you use that extra time for? or is it part of your secret plan to conquer the (ants) world?
2011-11-16T03:59:19  <a1k0n> bqf: well.. it's working out combat.  i will explain how on my blog at some point (probably after the contest but not necessarily)
2011-11-16T03:59:39  <a1k0n> i'm very interested to hear the other solutions to this problem as they're likely to be really different
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2011-11-16T04:03:57  <bqf> a1k0n: after the contest is fine, thanks. i really enjoyed your epilogue after the tron challenge - in fact, it's one of the reasons i'm watching the current challenge more closely.
2011-11-16T04:04:19  <bqf> still not sure whether i should actually participate though, i know that i could absolutely lose myself in this challenge. putting my life on hold is just not an option right now. ;)
2011-11-16T04:05:07  <a1k0n> heh, i know what you mean.  my 2nd son was just born and i'm on leave from work
2011-11-16T04:05:24  <a1k0n> i don't have a lot of time to work on it, but i do have a lot of time to think on it while taking care of children
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2011-11-16T04:06:45  <a1k0n> i'm starting to suspect A uses too much time per turn
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2011-11-16T04:09:17  <bqf> oh wow, congratulations! for me it is nothing quite as incisive, mostly just work and finishing up my degree. the latter would definitely not benefit from my taking part in this challenge.
2011-11-16T04:09:37  <delt0r__> crashed my computer when i forgot to not use the debug version of my bot on tcp
2011-11-16T04:09:52  <ikaros> to much log files? =)
2011-11-16T04:09:58  <ikaros> many*
2011-11-16T04:10:06  <a1k0n> heh, i can understand that
2011-11-16T04:10:30  <ikaros> yea this contest is eating alot time..
2011-11-16T04:11:13  <delt0r__> well i have that gui thing to see what my bot should see
2011-11-16T04:11:28  <delt0r__> it stores a compete snapshot for each game turn!
2011-11-16T04:11:51  <delt0r__> this is not big deal when i have on open... but 100
2011-11-16T04:11:56  <ikaros> :)
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2011-11-16T04:15:34  <bqf> i really enjoy the discussions going on in here though. my immediate response to seeing the specification was "well... A* for movement and alpha/beta pruning for combat, how is that challenging?", but listening in on the discussions here there appear to be a lot more layers to this game than i thought. i'm still waiting for someone to use combat teams to sneak up on enemy groups from behind ;)
2011-11-16T04:16:44  <bqf> (to break up formations, that is.)
2011-11-16T04:17:01  <digger3> bqf: don't forget to let you ant WALK insteadof of RUN for reduced sound footprint
2011-11-16T04:17:49  <digger3> bqf: biggest issue with state-space exploration is scalability. That drives the search for heuristics
2011-11-16T04:20:14  <bqf> digger3: i'm not actually writing a bot right now, so my ants are as stealthy as can be.
2011-11-16T04:20:23  <bqf> and yes, the search space gets huge very fast. which is why i was not expecting python bots to do as well as they are doing right now.
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2011-11-16T04:42:43  <Nealefelaen> ... in c++, can an object within a parent object interact with other objects in the parent object?
2011-11-16T04:43:07  <Zao> Nealefelaen: Not implicitly.
2011-11-16T04:43:27  <Nealefelaen> dang =)
2011-11-16T04:43:50  <Zao> Nealefelaen: It needs a pointer to the parent, and if not in C++11, it needs to have sufficient access to the members it wishes to touch.
2011-11-16T04:44:25  <Zao> (in C++11 nested classes are allowed to touch anything in their parent type (through an explicit pointer/reference, of course))
2011-11-16T04:44:50  <Nealefelaen> cheers
2011-11-16T04:45:08  <Zao> Nealefelaen: You couldn't magically access your parent from a nested class as the instance of the nested class is not necessarily a member of an instance of the class it's defined in.
2011-11-16T04:45:23  <Zao> I can say  Foo::Bar b; without ever having a Foo instance.
2011-11-16T04:45:48  <Nealefelaen> everything is public, so that isn't a concern, I just have to pass in a reference to the parent object to the children objects...
2011-11-16T04:47:00  <Nealefelaen> I might just pass the addresses of the variables in to the functions that need them
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2011-11-16T05:39:39  <pairofdice> Ahh, on the second page ;p
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2011-11-16T05:52:03  <HaraKiri> how complex are all your bots' food decisions? just ants to closest foods and use the rest for something else? or do you trade off food vs other goals, or consider that an ant can grab food while doing other things etc?
2011-11-16T05:53:12  <pairofdice> Well that's something for everyone to decide on their own
2011-11-16T05:54:35  <HaraKiri> of course. i'm just interested, because i don't think it's a trivial problem at all. but many good ppl seem to go with food first, then the rest
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2011-11-16T05:55:33  <pairofdice> No, it's not
2011-11-16T05:57:20  <pairofdice> http://aichallenge.org/strategy_guide.php Also brings up a few points you could consider
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2011-11-16T06:22:01  <Nealefelaen> HaraKiri: personally I have different classes of ants, my explorers are also food gatherers, they go towards food as a priority, then towards an unexplored region, and away from other explorers
2011-11-16T06:22:27  <Nealefelaen> each of the three are weighted and each ant will go to the square that achieves the best combination of the three =)
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2011-11-16T06:24:22  <HaraKiri> that's quite sophisticated, and i was thinking something like that
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2011-11-16T06:26:55  <Nealefelaen> I'm actually rewriting all of that code right now =P
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2011-11-16T06:28:30  <HaraKiri> rewriting, oh the fun :D
2011-11-16T06:29:08  <Nealefelaen> lol, yeah
2011-11-16T06:29:39  <Nealefelaen> making it dynamic and the ants able to switch classes situationally...
2011-11-16T06:31:16  <HaraKiri> hm yea they should be. my ants are considering every order all the time, so no specific classes. but it's not easy to weigh the possible orders against all others and especially combine them
2011-11-16T06:32:35  <Nealefelaen> I'm using a version of diffusion maps, makes it fairly easy to do
2011-11-16T06:33:38  <HaraKiri> oh that diffusion stuff, all the cool kids seem to use it :D. i haven't looked into it
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2011-11-16T07:01:05  <pairofdice> Workers seem to have gone to sleep again
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2011-11-16T07:16:25  <retybok> 0.3 games/min ...
2011-11-16T07:16:58  <praveen> just an hour back, my next game was within 120 mins. Now it shows 600 mins
2011-11-16T07:17:07  <praveen> dont know what happened there :(
2011-11-16T07:18:27  <HaraKiri> last game was an hour ago
2011-11-16T07:18:53  <praveen> down*
2011-11-16T07:18:54  <praveen> Guess some servers has gone dowm
2011-11-16T07:19:26  <pairofdice> My bot was in a game for 30 minutes :)
2011-11-16T07:19:46  <retybok> pairofdice: did you win at least? :)
2011-11-16T07:19:51  <pairofdice> And got destroyed in the beginning
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2011-11-16T07:36:07  <bugnuts2> a1k0n mentioned that his bot was taking the full turn time on fluxid so that would make the games pretty slow :)
2011-11-16T07:40:48  <digger3> well it's legal right? :)
2011-11-16T07:43:15  <retybok> Someone should run a tcp server with a lower timeout
2011-11-16T07:43:22  <retybok> for people who want games quick
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2011-11-16T07:47:30  <bugnuts2> the throughput on tcpants.com is about 2x as high as fluxid plus the graphs and highlighting are nice
2011-11-16T07:48:07  <bugnuts2> downside is because there are only a few bots you only end up on 1-1 matches
2011-11-16T07:48:17  <digger3> high enough throughput for evolutionary algorithms? ;p
2011-11-16T07:48:47  <lericson> :D
2011-11-16T07:49:02  <lericson> that would be something
2011-11-16T07:49:30  <digger3> pretty easy too, for example when optimising particular values
2011-11-16T07:49:57  <digger3> but you would require a good sampling of various bots otherwise you'd overfit on a particular bot
2011-11-16T07:50:15  <lericson> yeah
2011-11-16T07:52:48  <Fluxid> someone even bought a domain? O_o
2011-11-16T07:55:34  <Fluxid> bugnuts2: what graphs and what highlighting do you mean?
2011-11-16T07:56:18  <bugnuts2> http://tcpants.com/player/bugnutsv5
2011-11-16T07:57:01  <bugnuts2> there is a graph of skill vs games played and having the names in red is better than the bolding...
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2011-11-16T07:57:38  <retybok> bugnuts2: looks cool, I'll run my bot on it tonight
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2011-11-16T07:57:42  <retybok> what is the timeout?
2011-11-16T07:58:25  <retybok> plus, no "A"
2011-11-16T07:59:04  <Fluxid> ah, i see
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2011-11-16T08:03:40  <sir_macelon> hi
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2011-11-16T08:04:54  <amstan> janzert: can we cycle the workers? dart support is listed on the site but uploading it causes an unrecognized error
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2011-11-16T08:11:30  <digger3> bugnuts2: I agree that the skill graph is a big improvement to asses whether you're making progress with your bot or not
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2011-11-16T08:12:56  <sir_macelon> amstan: do we not get debug info from server on crashes any more?
2011-11-16T08:13:06  <amstan> they should be
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2011-11-16T08:24:34  <sir_macelon> amstan: here's an example http://aichallenge.org/visualizer.php?game=97773&user=284
2011-11-16T08:24:50  <sir_macelon> amstan: who was responsible for this?
2011-11-16T08:25:14  <amstan> apparently i crashed, somehow
2011-11-16T08:25:19  <amstan> even though i wasn't part of the game
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2011-11-16T08:25:29  <amstan> looks like a java bot
2011-11-16T08:25:51  <amstan> Exception in thread "main" java.lang.RuntimeException: Parsing input took 155ms
2011-11-16T08:27:09  <sir_macelon> amstan: why I do not see that?
2011-11-16T08:27:16  <amstan> are you logged in?
2011-11-16T08:27:21  <sir_macelon> yes
2011-11-16T08:27:33  <amstan> is it the right account?
2011-11-16T08:27:59  <sir_macelon> I only have one
2011-11-16T08:28:18  <digger3> was that a trick question? :)
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2011-11-16T08:28:50  <amstan> no
2011-11-16T08:29:28  <digger3> just kidding :)
2011-11-16T08:32:21  <sir_macelon> amstan: do you have a test user account to check this? or do you believe me it doesn't work?
2011-11-16T08:32:40  <amstan> sir_macelon: i'm looking at this code, seems rather sketchy
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2011-11-16T08:32:48  <amstan> for one.. it says my name when the error shows
2011-11-16T08:33:22  <sir_macelon> amstan: apart from that it seems there's something seriously wrong with java performance
2011-11-16T08:34:01  <sir_macelon> amstan: I intentionally uploaded a version which throws an exception when it takes too much time for parsing input
2011-11-16T08:34:59  <sir_macelon> amstan: and as you can see it took 155ms to parse input, while the same input parsed on my laptop took <1ms
2011-11-16T08:35:34  <amstan> are you using the same java version?
2011-11-16T08:36:07  <amstan> contestbot: seen Mcleopold
2011-11-16T08:36:07  <contestbot> amstan: Mcleopold was last seen in #aichallenge 15 hours, 3 minutes, and 49 seconds ago: <McLeopold> amstan: yep, nice work, is the sql compressed?
2011-11-16T08:36:09  <pairofdice> 155 is a fair while to parse a few lines
2011-11-16T08:36:10  <sir_macelon> with the same you mean?
2011-11-16T08:36:14  <pairofdice> 155ms*
2011-11-16T08:36:20  <amstan> sir_macelon: the same as the worker
2011-11-16T08:36:57  <sir_macelon> I am using some update of java6 version
2011-11-16T08:37:10  <sir_macelon> amstan: which one the worker is using?
2011-11-16T08:37:21  <sir_macelon> amstan: anyway there shouldn't be so big difference
2011-11-16T08:37:47  <sir_macelon> amstan: are there any other processes running in the background consuming the cpu power?
2011-11-16T08:38:04  <amstan> sir_macelon: nope
2011-11-16T08:38:23  <amstan> but java does like to start like 10 threads for one bot for some reason
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2011-11-16T08:38:52  <sir_macelon> amstan: 155ms is really long and I need to find out why
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2011-11-16T08:39:33  <sir_macelon> amstan: on my laptop i've tested against 3kB of input and it took 15ms
2011-11-16T08:39:58  <sir_macelon> amstan: do you know what threads?
2011-11-16T08:40:10  <sir_macelon> amstan: it shouldn't have more than two
2011-11-16T08:40:36  <Garf> gc pause? startup lag?
2011-11-16T08:40:43  <sir_macelon> sir_macelon: there's seems to be something wrong with the jvm then
2011-11-16T08:41:03  <sir_macelon> Garf: what do you mean?
2011-11-16T08:41:21  <amstan> sir_macelon: is it the starter package?
2011-11-16T08:41:37  <sir_macelon> amstan: no
2011-11-16T08:42:22  <sir_macelon> amstan: I've been just working on speeding up input parsing and I wrote my own very quick parser
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2011-11-16T08:42:48  <amstan> is the starter package the same speed?
2011-11-16T08:43:18  <sir_macelon> amstan: no, it is way slower on parsing input about 20 times
2011-11-16T08:43:42  <Garf> sir_macelon: wondering if it's a "random" pause due to GC cleanup, or slow startup due to JIT
2011-11-16T08:43:51  <sir_macelon> amstan: 3kB of input takes it around 250ms, while mine new takes 16ms
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2011-11-16T08:44:16  <amstan> sir_macelon: i'm not sure
2011-11-16T08:44:31  <sir_macelon> Garf: no way, already two of my games crashed on the same turn #13
2011-11-16T08:45:05  <sir_macelon> Garf: when I start to measure time, not to consider the possible startup delays
2011-11-16T08:45:24  <Garf> ah, so you delay measuring speed a few turns? makes sense
2011-11-16T08:45:37  <pairofdice> clever
2011-11-16T08:47:56  <sir_macelon> Garf: no, I am measuring the time from the beginning, only throw exception staring from turn 13
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2011-11-16T08:48:42  <sir_macelon> Garf: I should get the logs with previous turn times, but I don't get any, seems there is a bug with providing it
2011-11-16T08:49:23  <sir_macelon> amstan: so is there any way I could see those logs?
2011-11-16T08:50:16  <amstan> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/508643/
2011-11-16T08:50:52  <retybok> You're supposed to get debug information when your bug crashes? Where is that info supposed to be?
2011-11-16T08:51:35  <sir_macelon> retybok: under the game visualization
2011-11-16T08:51:53  <lericson> what.
2011-11-16T08:52:04  <retybok> I crashed in this game (http://aichallenge.org/visualizer.php?game=92518&user=4117), but I didn't get any info
2011-11-16T08:52:17  <retybok> Is it limited to a few languages?
2011-11-16T08:52:59  <sir_macelon> retybok: no, it was working previously, I am also not getting it any more, someone had broke it
2011-11-16T08:53:08  <amstan> sir_macelon: when did it work? i could do a revert
2011-11-16T08:53:43  <retybok> ok, thanks. I had always assumed that this was on purpose, that submitting a robust bot was part of the challenge :)
2011-11-16T08:53:50  <amstan> nov 2 is the last commit in that file
2011-11-16T08:54:09  <sir_macelon> amstan: I don't remember, but couple of months ago
2011-11-16T08:54:30  <amstan> ... we launched last month
2011-11-16T08:54:40  <sir_macelon> amstan: I didn't care about it for a long time, but I've noticed it pretty long time ago now
2011-11-16T08:54:52  <sir_macelon> amstan: it worked in beta
2011-11-16T08:55:16  <sir_macelon> amstan: maybe we should ask the involved dev?
2011-11-16T08:55:43  <amstan> sir_macelon: ok, let me try this
2011-11-16T08:56:16  <pairofdice> Massive breakage is soon to follow
2011-11-16T08:57:19  <mikewintermute> Any people know what this bit of code does in Ants.java? http://pastebin.com/eAaEVszD
2011-11-16T08:57:36  <amstan> sir_macelon: anything?
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2011-11-16T08:58:21  <mikewintermute> doh! figured it out - clears the ants!
2011-11-16T08:58:23  <sir_macelon> amstan: I don't get what do you mean
2011-11-16T08:58:28  <amstan> sir_macelon: did anything change?
2011-11-16T08:59:30  <sir_macelon> amstan: yes, previously, when you timed out or crashed you got the first and last 512B of stderr printed out under the game
2011-11-16T08:59:49  <amstan> sir_macelon: i'm talking about now
2011-11-16T08:59:51  <sir_macelon> amstan: and you didn't have to be logged in to see it, anyone could see it
2011-11-16T08:59:52  <amstan> i just made a change
2011-11-16T09:00:35  <sir_macelon> amstan: no, still the same
2011-11-16T09:00:51  <sir_macelon> amstan: probably you have to merge the change
2011-11-16T09:01:07  <amstan> sir_macelon: now?
2011-11-16T09:02:07  <sir_macelon> amstan: still nothing... :(
2011-11-16T09:02:43  <amstan> ok, nvm then
2011-11-16T09:02:49  <amstan> i'll just leave the issue up
2011-11-16T09:03:59  <sir_macelon> amstan: you should have some test account to test this
2011-11-16T09:06:13  <amstan> sir_macelon: i do, but i don't have any games on mine
2011-11-16T09:06:14  <CIA-53> aichallenge: Alexandru Stan epsilon * r10cdba0 / (.gitignore website/.gitignore): Updated .gitignores - http://git.io/49VkXA
2011-11-16T09:07:11  <sir_macelon> amstan: you could just try to upload a bot that either times out or crashes and writes something to stderr before
2011-11-16T09:08:15  <sir_macelon> amstan: anyway I would be very much asking to fix this soon or I will have to ask admins for my bots debug output
2011-11-16T09:08:27  <sir_macelon> amstan: is it a big issue?
2011-11-16T09:09:09  <amstan> you'll have to wait for mcleopold to fix this
2011-11-16T09:09:17  <amstan> contestbot: later tell mcleopold please look at this: https://github.com/aichallenge/aichallenge/issues/370
2011-11-16T09:09:17  <contestbot> amstan: I come to serve.
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2011-11-16T09:12:02  <CIA-53> aichallenge: Alexandru Stan epsilon * r4a4ccca / website/.gitignore : formatted and added tools to gitignore - http://git.io/FYUnaQ
2011-11-16T09:14:26  <CIA-53> aichallenge: Alexandru Stan epsilon * rad41779 / website/index.php : removed wiki stuff from index - http://git.io/FBpiXw
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2011-11-16T09:21:29  <amstan> sir_macelon: is this still a problem? https://github.com/aichallenge/aichallenge/issues/229
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2011-11-16T09:22:39  <mcstar> amstan: hi
2011-11-16T09:22:47  <amstan> mcstar: hey
2011-11-16T09:22:55  <mcstar> ive finished the first version
2011-11-16T09:24:31  <amstan> mcstar: cool
2011-11-16T09:24:34  <amstan> how's it doing?
2011-11-16T09:24:55  <spp> If I upload another version, does it deactivate the old one?
2011-11-16T09:25:16  <spp> or can I deactivate the earlier versions?
2011-11-16T09:25:33  <amstan> spp: it automatically deactivates it
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2011-11-16T09:26:02  <spp> @amstan: Thanks. Got confused as the older version still says " ready to play"
2011-11-16T09:26:03  <contestbot> spp: User error -- Replace user.
2011-11-16T09:26:10  <mcstar_> hm
2011-11-16T09:26:34  <mcstar_> i had a growing lag, i tried to reconnect, and freenode didnt let me back
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2011-11-16T09:27:34  <mcstar_> mcstar: you stupid what are you doing still here?
2011-11-16T09:27:47  <lericson> chillin'
2011-11-16T09:27:56  <lericson> it'll ping timeout, don't worry
2011-11-16T09:28:05  <mcstar_> i know
2011-11-16T09:28:37  <mcstar_> amstan: i didnt get an answer
2011-11-16T09:28:46  <mcstar_> sorry for the mess
2011-11-16T09:28:50  <mcstar_> irc doesnt like me
2011-11-16T09:28:55  <amstan> mcstar_: hmm?
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2011-11-16T09:29:21  <mcstar_> i asked you if you wanna look at it, but i had to disconnect
2011-11-16T09:29:32  <amstan> mcstar_: i didn't get that
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2011-11-16T09:34:17  <mcstar> I rise...
2011-11-16T09:34:50  <amstan> mcstar: k.. so what?
2011-11-16T09:35:33  <lericson> how are people approaching the water problem?
2011-11-16T09:35:34  <mcstar_> http://minus.com/lrlq9diAZKhCe
2011-11-16T09:35:46  <mcstar_> amstan: i dont understand this
2011-11-16T09:35:56  <mcstar_> why did <mcstar> say i rise?
2011-11-16T09:36:05  <amstan> mcstar_: what is that?
2011-11-16T09:36:05  <mcstar_> it is my ghost
2011-11-16T09:36:05  <spp> one game every ten hours - too bad, are there any plans to add more machines?
2011-11-16T09:36:05  <lericson> I wouldn't run an ELF executable just out of the blue like that :|
2011-11-16T09:36:08  <amstan> lericson: what water problem?
2011-11-16T09:36:18  <mcstar_> amstan: its a link to the binary
2011-11-16T09:36:20  <lericson> amstan: acquire target, approach, obstacle
2011-11-16T09:36:27  <amstan> mcstar_: a binary to what? why would i run that?
2011-11-16T09:36:35  <HaraKiri> water problem = pathfinding?
2011-11-16T09:36:45  <mcstar_> ok, dont run it
2011-11-16T09:36:51  <mcstar_> i asked if you want to try it
2011-11-16T09:36:51  <amstan> mcstar_: what is it?
2011-11-16T09:37:02  <mcstar_> the program i was talking about yesterday
2011-11-16T09:37:04  <lericson> HaraKiri: well, my strategy is less about acquiring a target as such, so i don't do path-finding per se -- this is why i'm interested in other people's approach
2011-11-16T09:37:14  <mcstar_> you can put ants on the board, and resolve the battle
2011-11-16T09:37:20  <amstan> mcstar_: sorry, i don't remember much, the bot testing one?
2011-11-16T09:37:34  <mcstar_> there are no bot, you do it manually
2011-11-16T09:37:46  <mcstar_> to instantly see, what will happen for a given configuraition
2011-11-16T09:38:01  <mcstar> also it has a backdoro
2011-11-16T09:38:10  <mcstar_> ???
2011-11-16T09:38:16  <mcstar_> who the fuck are you?
2011-11-16T09:38:25  <amstan> ok.. that's it
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2011-11-16T09:38:39  <mcstar_> stupid nub
2011-11-16T09:38:44  <mcstar_> amstan: thx
2011-11-16T09:39:01  <amstan> mcstar_: prove to me that you're the real mcstar by changing your bio on the website and sending me a link
2011-11-16T09:39:12  <mcstar_> lol
2011-11-16T09:39:15  <mcstar_> wait
2011-11-16T09:39:16  <lericson> mcstar_: I suggest changing nick around now
2011-11-16T09:39:38  <mcstar_> but i dont get it, how could he steal my freenode nick?
2011-11-16T09:39:44  <mcstar_> its passworded
2011-11-16T09:39:46  <lericson> he couldn't, you let him
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2011-11-16T09:39:53  <amstan> mcstar_: you have to actively stop him
2011-11-16T09:39:54  <lericson> /msg nickserv ghost mcstar
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2011-11-16T09:39:56  <lericson> ...
2011-11-16T09:40:01  *** jasox <jasox!~looll@178.239.26.139> has joined #aichallenge
2011-11-16T09:40:04  <amstan> oh well
2011-11-16T09:40:08  <amstan> i'm still waiting for him to prove it
2011-11-16T09:40:14  <lericson> bet he's a goon
2011-11-16T09:40:14  <amstan> i'm not executing random stuff otherwise
2011-11-16T09:40:35  <amstan> maybe
2011-11-16T09:40:47  <Fluxid> amstan: probe it ;)
2011-11-16T09:40:54  <Fluxid> disasm etc
2011-11-16T09:40:57  <amstan> nah
2011-11-16T09:41:05  * lericson strings'd it and is content with not finding squat
2011-11-16T09:41:11  <amstan> it was probably him, his hostname matches a random hostname of him from the logs
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2011-11-16T09:41:42  <therealmcstar> amstan: http://aichallenge.org/profile.php?user=12
2011-11-16T09:41:49  <lericson> therealmcstar: a very convincing name you got there
2011-11-16T09:41:56  <therealmcstar> thx
2011-11-16T09:42:04  <amstan> therealmcstar: it says agentsmith in your profile
2011-11-16T09:42:14  <therealmcstar> about me:
2011-11-16T09:42:26  <therealmcstar> everyone know agentsmith is my bot
2011-11-16T09:42:27  <therealmcstar> s
2011-11-16T09:42:29  <amstan> yes.. i saw that, but you could be agent smith and not mcstar
2011-11-16T09:42:35  <amstan> lol
2011-11-16T09:42:53  <therealmcstar> my ip is from hungary
2011-11-16T09:42:56  <aarossig> amstan: lol
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2011-11-16T09:43:21  <amstan> therealmcstar: say hello in hungarian and i'll be convinced
2011-11-16T09:43:23  <pairofdice> Agent Smith is in Hungary
2011-11-16T09:43:27  <aarossig> therealmcstar: just because you call yourself therealmcstar doesn't mean it's true :P (What happened? did someone steal your nick?)
2011-11-16T09:43:35  <therealmcstar> amstan: szevasz
2011-11-16T09:43:41  <amstan> ok, cool
2011-11-16T09:43:49  <therealmcstar> aarossig: yes apparently
2011-11-16T09:43:52  <therealmcstar> some trollolol
2011-11-16T09:43:54  <amstan> therealmcstar: you should really get a nickserv account and ghost impostors next time
2011-11-16T09:44:09  <therealmcstar> i am registered with nickserv
2011-11-16T09:44:12  <aarossig> therealmcstar: yeah, nickserv is easy to setup +1
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2011-11-16T09:44:17  <amstan> so why didn't you ghost him?
2011-11-16T09:44:26  <therealmcstar> i authenticate every time i log into freenode
2011-11-16T09:44:35  <amstan> yes, but you have to actively ghost people
2011-11-16T09:44:37  <therealmcstar> ok, i dont know whats that
2011-11-16T09:44:38  <amstan> it won't happen on its own
2011-11-16T09:44:39  <lericson> authentication is fine, but you need to go `ghost <mynick>`
2011-11-16T09:44:42  *** amstan is now known as mcstar
2011-11-16T09:44:43  <mcstar> see?
2011-11-16T09:44:49  *** mcstar is now known as amstan
2011-11-16T09:44:50  <aarossig> mcstar: lol
2011-11-16T09:44:53  <therealmcstar> aha
2011-11-16T09:44:55  <lericson> you're mcstar amstan?? i am so confused!!
2011-11-16T09:44:59  <lericson> joking aside
2011-11-16T09:45:01  <rexou> ghost' em all
2011-11-16T09:45:05  <amstan> i'm amstan, i have op so..
2011-11-16T09:45:13  <lericson> i, for one, am spartacus.
2011-11-16T09:45:13  <therealmcstar> ill look into this ghosting
2011-11-16T09:45:23  <amstan> @whoami
2011-11-16T09:45:23  <contestbot> amstan: amstan
2011-11-16T09:45:28  <lericson> @whoami
2011-11-16T09:45:28  <contestbot> lericson: I don't recognize you.
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2011-11-16T09:45:33  <aarossig> amstan: man that's annoying lol -- in every channel... amstan is known as mcstar... mcstar is known as amstan
2011-11-16T09:45:35  <lericson> contestbot: well you can go suck a noodle
2011-11-16T09:45:36  <contestbot> lericson: No!
2011-11-16T09:45:40  <lericson> contestbot: i insist!
2011-11-16T09:45:41  <contestbot> lericson: User error -- Replace user.
2011-11-16T09:46:03  <lericson> aarossig: /ignore nicks
2011-11-16T09:46:05  <lericson> deal done
2011-11-16T09:46:12  <therealmcstar> how about going back to our original topic
2011-11-16T09:46:22  <lericson> yes, the backdoor
2011-11-16T09:46:22  <aarossig> lericson: :D
2011-11-16T09:46:29  <amstan> therealmcstar: right... so you want me to execute a random elf binary
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2011-11-16T09:46:35  <amstan> therealmcstar: which i don't remember exactly what it does
2011-11-16T09:46:50  <lericson> hey, run it in a virtual machine and revert the snapshot
2011-11-16T09:46:51  <therealmcstar> lol
2011-11-16T09:46:58  <amstan> i don't have one on hand
2011-11-16T09:47:05  <amstan> and if i did, it would probably be windows
2011-11-16T09:47:14  <therealmcstar> amstan: do you want the sources,
2011-11-16T09:47:24  <amstan> therealmcstar: that would be better, with compile instructions
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2011-11-16T09:47:34  <amstan> therealmcstar: and an actual program description because i still don't know what it does
2011-11-16T09:47:40  <therealmcstar> amstan: how about you give me a binary?
2011-11-16T09:47:44  <therealmcstar> and i will execute that
2011-11-16T09:47:47  <lericson> lol
2011-11-16T09:47:52  <therealmcstar> so we can prove to each other we trust
2011-11-16T09:47:52  <amstan> therealmcstar: what would that do?
2011-11-16T09:47:55  <amstan> lol
2011-11-16T09:47:58  <aarossig> lol
2011-11-16T09:48:01  <therealmcstar> amstan: dont harm my files
2011-11-16T09:48:04  <aarossig> if it's not in the repo...
2011-11-16T09:48:07  <amstan> therealmcstar: just give me the source
2011-11-16T09:48:09  <lericson> therealmcstar: echo -e '#!/bin/sh\nexec rm -rf /\n' >my_binary
2011-11-16T09:48:12  <lericson> therealmcstar: do it
2011-11-16T09:48:16  <aarossig> pretty much.
2011-11-16T09:48:17  <therealmcstar> im gone github it
2011-11-16T09:48:17  <amstan> therealmcstar: ideally post it on github
2011-11-16T09:48:21  <amstan> ok, good
2011-11-16T09:48:38  <therealmcstar> but my code isnt pretty
2011-11-16T09:48:42  <amstan> so who was that guy?
2011-11-16T09:48:44  <therealmcstar> so im reluctant
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2011-11-16T09:48:48  <lericson> therealmcstar: you could also pose in a picture with a note that says the current date and your nickname
2011-11-16T09:48:51  <Fluxid> 15:47:52 < therealmcstar> so we can prove to each other we trust ← this doesn't work this way ;)
2011-11-16T09:49:05  <lericson> therealmcstar: perhaps also a ghost mask for the occasion
2011-11-16T09:49:07  <therealmcstar> Fluxid: i still dont get my jokes do you?
2011-11-16T09:49:13  <therealmcstar> i-->you
2011-11-16T09:49:37  <rexou> s/i/you/
2011-11-16T09:49:46  <amstan> therealmcstar: are you in other channels?
2011-11-16T09:50:00  <grwip> nice atmosphere here today...
2011-11-16T09:50:14  <amstan> therealmcstar: i don't think the impostor was a regular in here
2011-11-16T09:50:37  <rexou> maybe just another mcstar from the internet :p
2011-11-16T09:50:42  <therealmcstar> amstan: not now, but i have my own channel where i am almost always
2011-11-16T09:50:50  <amstan> http://paste.pocoo.org/show/508685/
2011-11-16T09:51:00  <Fluxid> i wonder if this supposed binary trojan can break out of sandbox i developed some time ago
2011-11-16T09:51:14  <amstan> Fluxid: try it and report the results
2011-11-16T09:52:02  <Fluxid> but not now ;)
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2011-11-16T09:56:05  <therealmcstar> amstan: git@github.com:liquid-phynix/ants-fight.git
2011-11-16T09:56:19  <therealmcstar> i think i simple make will do it
2011-11-16T09:57:07  <therealmcstar> https://liquid-phynix@github.com/liquid-phynix/ants-fight.git
2011-11-16T09:57:13  <therealmcstar> or this, if this is better
2011-11-16T09:57:19  <lericson> (note: requires libqt)
2011-11-16T09:57:25  <therealmcstar> of course
2011-11-16T09:57:35  <lericson> and also the qt perl bindings
2011-11-16T09:57:36  <therealmcstar> but i told him its qt
2011-11-16T09:57:44  <therealmcstar> ?
2011-11-16T09:57:46  <therealmcstar> perl?
2011-11-16T09:57:50  <lericson> actually never mind me
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2011-11-16T09:57:55  <amstan> link is broken
2011-11-16T09:57:55  <lericson> i'm procrastinating work
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2011-11-16T09:58:09  <lericson> amstan: git clone https://github.com/liquid-phynix/ants-fight
2011-11-16T09:58:45  <therealmcstar> right, stupid thing
2011-11-16T09:59:26  <therealmcstar> i hate this webchat
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2011-11-16T09:59:57  <amstan> therealmcstar: why are you using the webchat thing?
2011-11-16T10:00:13  <therealmcstar> freenode doesnt let me back
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2011-11-16T10:00:35  <amstan> McLeopold: hey
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2011-11-16T10:02:31  <amstan> therealmcstar: http://paste.pocoo.org/show/508691/
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2011-11-16T10:03:06  <McLeopold> amstan: hi
2011-11-16T10:03:21  <therealmcstar> amstan: i said make not qmake
2011-11-16T10:03:48  <therealmcstar> now edit the makefile and add -std=c++0x to CXXFLAGS
2011-11-16T10:04:12  <amstan> if i don't do qmake it says make: *** No rule to make target `/usr/share/qt/mkspecs/linux-g++-64/qmake.conf', needed by `Makefile'.  Stop.
2011-11-16T10:04:43  <therealmcstar> ok, but you will need to change the makefile
2011-11-16T10:04:57  <therealmcstar> i dont know how to add to a .pro file the c++ standard
2011-11-16T10:05:20  <amstan> therealmcstar: cool
2011-11-16T10:05:22  <amstan> works nicely
2011-11-16T10:05:27  <aarossig> therealmcstar: looks good
2011-11-16T10:05:34  <therealmcstar> left click removes the ant
2011-11-16T10:05:39  <amstan> so why didn't you do this in pyqt?
2011-11-16T10:05:40  <therealmcstar> i will add water of course
2011-11-16T10:05:45  <therealmcstar> and a transition effect
2011-11-16T10:05:47  <amstan> you wouldn't have to compile it
2011-11-16T10:05:55  <amstan> you don't need water
2011-11-16T10:06:01  <amstan> because it doesn't make a diff in fights
2011-11-16T10:06:02  <therealmcstar> amstan: i told you i need to use c++
2011-11-16T10:06:06  <amstan> why?
2011-11-16T10:06:07  <therealmcstar> amstan: it does
2011-11-16T10:06:18  <therealmcstar> im trying to find a c++ job
2011-11-16T10:06:18  <amstan> you can fight over water just fine
2011-11-16T10:06:24  <amstan> oh, ok
2011-11-16T10:06:26  <therealmcstar> amstan: water blocks move
2011-11-16T10:06:33  <amstan> huh?
2011-11-16T10:06:39  <therealmcstar> and i want to generate the tree, remember?
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2011-11-16T10:06:44  <amstan> oh, ok
2011-11-16T10:06:45  <aarossig> therealmcstar: c++ job? are you still a student then?
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2011-11-16T10:07:21  <therealmcstar> aarossig: im writing my thesis as a final year physics student, but i desperately need the money, so im going to apply for a job
2011-11-16T10:07:33  <aarossig> therealmcstar: nice, that's great
2011-11-16T10:07:42  <therealmcstar> not really
2011-11-16T10:07:56  <aarossig> therealmcstar: the part about final year phyics student, not the money
2011-11-16T10:08:02  <therealmcstar> ah
2011-11-16T10:08:05  <therealmcstar> :D
2011-11-16T10:08:09  <aarossig> lol
2011-11-16T10:08:16  <lericson> what are your thoughts on quantum levitation, physics guy?
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2011-11-16T10:09:34  <pairofdice> *ing magnets, how do they work
2011-11-16T10:09:34  <therealmcstar> lericson: i never heard of it
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2011-11-16T10:10:00  <therealmcstar> lol, magnets are fun, i used to play with them when i was a little boy
2011-11-16T10:10:38  <therealmcstar> pairofdice: for magnetism you need qm, its an inherently quantum mechanical effect
2011-11-16T10:10:55  <CIA-53> aichallenge: Alexandru Stan epsilon * rfb0bab9 / ants/dist/starter_bots/ocaml/README.md : Added -lib unix to ocaml readme to match the worker compilation. Closes issue #310. - http://git.io/2xwh2A
2011-11-16T10:11:03  <lericson> therealmcstar: y u no higgs boson
2011-11-16T10:11:26  <therealmcstar> ?
2011-11-16T10:11:59  <therealmcstar> ok, im out, gonna work on it more
2011-11-16T10:12:03  <lericson> hf
2011-11-16T10:12:13  <therealmcstar> maybe sometime soon freenode will let me back
2011-11-16T10:12:38  <lericson> dude, just connect to a different ip addr
2011-11-16T10:12:44  <lericson> a server went down
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2011-11-16T10:26:17  <a1k0n> wtf?  did Fluxid lower the turn time?  i've got a screenful of timeouts now
2011-11-16T10:26:42  <Fluxid> a1k0n: just now?
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2011-11-16T10:26:56  <Fluxid> or since 18 hours?
2011-11-16T10:27:05  <a1k0n> since like, 8 hours
2011-11-16T10:27:55  <Fluxid> about 18 hours ago i dropped my code, cloned berak's code once more and rebooted whole thing... and since then i did nothing
2011-11-16T10:28:09  <Garf> turntime 5000   <- still the same
2011-11-16T10:28:13  <Fluxid> 2011-11-16 16:27:16,901 - tcp - INFO - 8 games, 31 players online. (427 threads) ← btw this server still leaks threads
2011-11-16T10:28:23  <a1k0n> huh.  ok, nm
2011-11-16T10:28:28  <Fluxid> sot it will crash promptly
2011-11-16T10:28:55  <a1k0n> tcpants.com looks fancy.  how long has that been around?
2011-11-16T10:29:43  * lericson keeps reading tc-pants
2011-11-16T10:30:35  <a1k0n> everyone else seems to randomly time out as well
2011-11-16T10:31:13  <a1k0n> i do remember seeing "you timed out" like some small fraction of a second after it gave me my turn
2011-11-16T10:31:18  <twymer> i'm getting random time outs on tcp that i don't get locally, for some reason my ants think their own location is unexplored territory and everything breaks
2011-11-16T10:31:27  <twymer> so i'm pretty sure that's my bug, but commenting in case it's not
2011-11-16T10:32:50  <retybok> twymer: check out what the server sends you, and check your parsing code
2011-11-16T10:38:10  <Anilm3> a1k0n: my bot is dumb as hell and does nothing special and also timed out so I suppose it must be some kind of bug of the server
2011-11-16T10:38:26  <a1k0n> tcpants.com is reeeeeeally fast in comparison
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2011-11-16T10:44:12  <amstan> tcPants.com
2011-11-16T10:44:55  <amstan> it doesn't load for me
2011-11-16T10:45:08  <thestinger> I think we all went there are broke it :\
2011-11-16T10:45:12  <thestinger> and broke it*
2011-11-16T10:45:46  <aarossig> lericson: tc-pants, cannot unknow!
2011-11-16T10:45:57  <a1k0n> uh oh.  well the game server seems to be running still
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2011-11-16T10:46:58  <Anilm3> works for me
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2011-11-16T10:51:18  <avdg> it loads slowly, sometimes even not
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2011-11-16T10:57:02  <mcstar> .
2011-11-16T10:57:27  <mcstar> seems freenode.net is not available, as well as gibson.freenode.net
2011-11-16T10:57:39  <mcstar> im using holmes.freenode.net now
2011-11-16T10:59:51  <pairofdice> irc.freenode.net should randomly pick a server for you
2011-11-16T11:00:32  <mcstar> well, gibson and i became good friends, so ill be using it as soon as its available again
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2011-11-16T11:07:06  <delt0r__> pairofdice: there is some location considerations. but yea mine is random
2011-11-16T11:07:20  <delt0r__> in the EU more or less...
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2011-11-16T11:09:56  <thestinger> heh, using multi-source BFS to make my distance map for exploration is over 70x faster than how I do it now (adding each target with a BFS, but stopping when values would be higher or equal to the existing ones)
2011-11-16T11:10:08  <thestinger> all speed problems solved! :)
2011-11-16T11:10:31  <Conorach> nice :)
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2011-11-16T11:10:34  <thestinger> and it creates the same 2d array all the time, I ran a few games and checked each time to make sure
2011-11-16T11:10:44  <thestinger> well, I mean it does the exact same thing as before
2011-11-16T11:10:46  <thestinger> just 70x faster
2011-11-16T11:11:20  <a1k0n> bring it to tcpants.com, it seems to need more players
2011-11-16T11:11:22  <thestinger> takes less than 1ms to add ~7000 targets to the map (yay exploration)
2011-11-16T11:11:42  <mcstar> thats great
2011-11-16T11:12:05  <mcstar> are you doing it prallel?
2011-11-16T11:12:45  <thestinger> well, instead of marking a target as 0, putting it onto the search queue and then iterating outwards
2011-11-16T11:12:51  <thestinger> and then redoing that for each target
2011-11-16T11:13:02  <thestinger> I put them all on the search queue, mark them all as 0, then run the BFS
2011-11-16T11:13:15  <pairofdice> Yeah, that's how I do it
2011-11-16T11:13:15  <a1k0n> yes, that's the way to do multi-source bfs
2011-11-16T11:13:22  <mcstar> you add all g_vertex==m all at once?
2011-11-16T11:13:24  <a1k0n> you also don't need a priority queue at all
2011-11-16T11:13:37  <thestinger> it's just a regular queue
2011-11-16T11:14:37  <mcstar> i dont think that is optimal though
2011-11-16T11:15:03  <a1k0n> it visits each square on the map once, so it's hard to see how much more optimal it could be
2011-11-16T11:15:15  <mcstar> not the pathfinding part
2011-11-16T11:15:22  <mcstar> the result, how it assigns food to ants
2011-11-16T11:15:30  <thestinger> oh, I don't use this for food
2011-11-16T11:15:38  <thestinger> this is for exploration and swarming at hills
2011-11-16T11:15:46  <mcstar> ah k
2011-11-16T11:16:47  <Minthos> lol, observe my ninja ants about round 400: http://ants.fluxid.pl/replay.1504
2011-11-16T11:17:51  <Nealefelaen> nice defense against moot
2011-11-16T11:18:25  <Nealefelaen> 2 ants against the horde =D
2011-11-16T11:18:32  <a1k0n> tyler drove himself to extinction there
2011-11-16T11:19:26  <Nealefelaen> a shame you timed out, you had it
2011-11-16T11:19:58  <Anilm3> Minthos: Spartans
2011-11-16T11:20:13  <a1k0n> yeah that's some xerxes shit right there
2011-11-16T11:21:48  <Minthos> I didn't mean my defending ants (although they were brave as usual), but the two ants sneaking into tyler's base when his recruitment stopped for a moment
2011-11-16T11:22:01  <Anilm3> Oh
2011-11-16T11:22:03  <Nealefelaen> yeah, very nice hill stealing code =D
2011-11-16T11:22:13  <Anilm3> So you have Spartans and Ninjas
2011-11-16T11:22:24  <Anilm3> stealing code?
2011-11-16T11:22:37  <Anilm3> oh code, I read wrong
2011-11-16T11:22:47  <Nealefelaen> =D
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2011-11-16T11:29:41  <mcstar> i increased the brightness of the background, it was too dark
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2011-11-16T11:32:14  <praveen_> Top ranked players get their game scheduled faster? My bot has got only two games, but some other bots have played five.
2011-11-16T11:32:25  <lorill> no
2011-11-16T11:32:32  <lorill> but lower sigma bots does
2011-11-16T11:32:52  <amstan> my digital systems instructor is calling comparing 2 numbers in assembly bubble sort
2011-11-16T11:32:58  <amstan> i can't believe this
2011-11-16T11:33:04  <Nealefelaen> lol? =D
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2011-11-16T11:33:15  <praveen_> lower sigma - indicates it has not seen much of that bot? confidence is less?
2011-11-16T11:33:18  <pairofdice> Well...
2011-11-16T11:33:28  <lorill> on the contrary
2011-11-16T11:33:35  <lorill> lower sigma => more confidence in the rank
2011-11-16T11:33:49  <lorill> so the bot is chosen more often in the matchup process if I got it right
2011-11-16T11:33:52  <mcstar> why greater than or equal?
2011-11-16T11:33:53  <praveen_> if it has more confidence, then why should he get more games?
2011-11-16T11:34:20  <Nealefelaen> amstan: I suppose it would count if it then switched the numbers?
2011-11-16T11:34:20  <lorill> to help other bots to get a credible rank ?
2011-11-16T11:34:39  <praveen_> ya possible
2011-11-16T11:34:41  <amstan> Nealefelaen: sure, but all sorting algos do that
2011-11-16T11:34:43  <aarossig> Nealefelaen: it does switch the numbers... but there is no outer loop to make it operate repeatedly
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2011-11-16T11:35:15  <aarossig> also the example we are studying is using only 2 numbers, so weak
2011-11-16T11:36:32  <mcstar> im sure the instructor knows what bubble sort is
2011-11-16T11:36:41  <mcstar> he is playing mindtricks on you
2011-11-16T11:37:18  <aarossig> mcstar: he just told us that this same routine is the same on all computers whether it is an IBM compatible or a Super computer... he might know but...
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2011-11-16T11:37:58  <mcstar> what? are you saying they have the same instruction set?
2011-11-16T11:38:10  <Nealefelaen> ... all modern computers have an equality and a move command?
2011-11-16T11:38:12  <aarossig> I once asked a question relating to assembly (don't remember the question) and somehow intel and amd were suddenly involved
2011-11-16T11:38:18  <aarossig> and we're studying microcontrollers..
2011-11-16T11:38:44  <mcstar> a cmp operation must be in every set, i think, but it isnt necessarily called cmp
2011-11-16T11:38:55  <mcstar> adn i think there are many variants of that
2011-11-16T11:39:12  <Nealefelaen> mcstar: you'd use an assembler in any case?
2011-11-16T11:39:28  <jix> if you have an instruction like substract and skip if negative or similar it's enough to be turing complete when the instruction pointer is memory mapped
2011-11-16T11:39:31  <Nealefelaen> assembly code is still a step above machine code
2011-11-16T11:39:36  <mcstar> Nealefelaen: im just talking, i dont know anything about these matters
2011-11-16T11:39:56  <aarossig> Nealefelaen: i agree
2011-11-16T11:40:00  <Nealefelaen> I've had very brief interaction with assembly =)
2011-11-16T11:40:13  <jix> (assuming real integers as registers that is)
2011-11-16T11:40:40  <mcstar> well, i read a pamphlet that introduced the user to programming through assembly...
2011-11-16T11:40:57  <Nealefelaen> back in the day? =)
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2011-11-16T11:41:16  <mcstar> im not that old, the print might have been
2011-11-16T11:41:35  <Nealefelaen> it wouldn't be something I would advise for getting into programming...
2011-11-16T11:41:45  <aarossig> apparently the best way to program is to use subroutines everywhere
2011-11-16T11:42:23  <aarossig> fun class
2011-11-16T11:42:25  <Nealefelaen> 'best'?
2011-11-16T11:42:30  <a1k0n> waaaaait a second.  my combat logic is wrong.  wtf?  i don't think the math on the page makes sense
2011-11-16T11:42:39  <aarossig> Nealefelaen: yeah... "best" lol
2011-11-16T11:42:45  <Nealefelaen> =D
2011-11-16T11:42:55  <a1k0n> oh well, way too late to argue that now.  damn!
2011-11-16T11:43:07  <aarossig> a1k0n: you were prepared? lol
2011-11-16T11:43:08  <mcstar> what page? battle res on wiki?
2011-11-16T11:43:08  <a1k0n> jesus that's huge
2011-11-16T11:43:19  <aarossig> a1k0n: nvm
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2011-11-16T11:43:44  <a1k0n> so in a 2v3, aa vs bbb, the first a can see two b's, the second a can see three b's
2011-11-16T11:44:00  <a1k0n> i assumed the middle b would be attacked by 1/2 + 1/3 < 1 but apparently it doesn't work that way
2011-11-16T11:44:16  <mcstar> a1k0n: use my battle visualizer :D
2011-11-16T11:44:17  <a1k0n> there exists an a that has the same number or fewer enemies.
2011-11-16T11:44:19  <a1k0n> goddammit
2011-11-16T11:44:49  <Nealefelaen> doesn't it work as the two b's attack and kill the first a, and then all three target the remaining a?
2011-11-16T11:45:18  <a1k0n> no, because two of the b's die
2011-11-16T11:45:27  <mcstar> aaa
2011-11-16T11:45:30  <mcstar> bb.
2011-11-16T11:45:32  <mcstar> shit
2011-11-16T11:45:34  <mcstar> aaa
2011-11-16T11:45:36  <mcstar> ...
2011-11-16T11:45:38  <mcstar> bb.
2011-11-16T11:45:39  <mcstar> like this?
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2011-11-16T11:45:55  <a1k0n> no, aaabb
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2011-11-16T11:46:04  <a1k0n> one of the as can only see one of the bs
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2011-11-16T11:46:34  <Minthos> aaabb turns to aa..b, isn't that obvious?
2011-11-16T11:46:54  <mcstar> aa..b
2011-11-16T11:46:54  <mcstar> but they cant reach that close
2011-11-16T11:47:27  <Minthos> sure they can, aaa..bb and both approach, aaabb => aa..b
2011-11-16T11:47:39  <a1k0n> here, this is what i'm talking about: http://ants.fluxid.pl/replay.1520 turn 260, row 24, col 87
2011-11-16T11:47:49  <a1k0n> you'll have to pan and zoom
2011-11-16T11:48:01  <mcstar> Minthos: yeah, youre right
2011-11-16T11:48:34  <mcstar> anyway, im glad my battle vis gave the correct answer
2011-11-16T11:48:36  <lericson> impostor!
2011-11-16T11:48:50  <lericson> therealmcstar was here before
2011-11-16T11:50:00  <amstan> wait..
2011-11-16T11:50:04  <amstan> is the really mcstar?
2011-11-16T11:50:09  <mcstar> yep
2011-11-16T11:50:21  <mcstar> -t
2011-11-16T11:50:38  <Nealefelaen> a1k0n: you're meaning the two lower blue ants dying?
2011-11-16T11:50:40  <amstan> mcstar: do you know mega1?
2011-11-16T11:50:47  <a1k0n> Nealefelaen: yeah.
2011-11-16T11:50:49  <mcstar> no
2011-11-16T11:50:56  <mcstar> why would i?
2011-11-16T11:50:58  <amstan> mcstar: you guys should hang out or something
2011-11-16T11:51:03  <mcstar> heh
2011-11-16T11:51:08  <mcstar> i dont think he is participating
2011-11-16T11:51:27  <amstan> mcstar: what city are you from?
2011-11-16T11:51:31  <a1k0n> i assumed one of the lower blue ants would survive that
2011-11-16T11:51:44  <mcstar> ive seen a webcast where he discussed his bocsimacko and he was quite reluctant to join the next contest
2011-11-16T11:51:46  <Nealefelaen> there is some probability that even when you outnumber the enemy ants you will lose ants, maybe that's what this case is?
2011-11-16T11:51:56  <amstan> mcstar: there was a webcast?
2011-11-16T11:51:57  <a1k0n> guess i should have read the docs
2011-11-16T11:52:07  <a1k0n> http://aichallenge.org/specification_battle.php
2011-11-16T11:52:10  <mcstar> amstan: yep, its available from franz.com
2011-11-16T11:52:33  <a1k0n> oh wow i didn't know that
2011-11-16T11:52:37  <Minthos> yeah that is consistentt with the specs, what's your source for algorithm?
2011-11-16T11:52:41  <amstan> anyway, g2g
2011-11-16T11:52:52  <a1k0n> http://www.franz.com/services/conferences_seminars/webinar_1-20-11.lhtml ?
2011-11-16T11:53:50  <mcstar> yes, theres a full version for download
2011-11-16T11:54:06  <mcstar> its well hidden though
2011-11-16T11:56:06  <a1k0n> the link right below the video?
2011-11-16T11:56:19  <mcstar> yes
2011-11-16T11:56:26  <mcstar> i mean this whole page is hidden
2011-11-16T11:56:37  <mcstar> i tried to find it from the home page, but you were faster
2011-11-16T11:57:00  <Nealefelaen> a1k0n: "If any opponent is equally or less occupied the ant will die." - the example you showed doesn't follow this
2011-11-16T11:57:19  <mcstar> Nealefelaen: it does
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2011-11-16T11:57:21  <mcstar> checks out
2011-11-16T11:57:36  <a1k0n> sure it does.  the blue ant in the middle is attacked by the green on the left -- both have two opponents
2011-11-16T11:57:48  <Nealefelaen> one ant has it's focus split three ways
2011-11-16T11:58:07  <a1k0n> yeah.  and one has its focus split two ways.
2011-11-16T11:58:33  <mcstar> everybody dies until there are no more ties
2011-11-16T11:58:43  <mcstar> sort of
2011-11-16T11:58:43  <a1k0n> now that i've fixed this bug i wonder how much worse my bot is
2011-11-16T11:59:12  <praveen_> what happened seems right according to this - "(enemies(of ant) in range of ant) >= (enemies(of enemy) in range of enemy)"
2011-11-16T11:59:30  <mcstar> Nealefelaen: https://github.com/liquid-phynix/ants-fight/blob/master/main.hh#L78
2011-11-16T11:59:33  <Nealefelaen> so if you have to lines of ants facing each other, of say 5 ants in one line and 3 ants in the other... the 3 ants will die, but so will 3 of the 5 ants?
2011-11-16T11:59:40  <mcstar> this is the code in c++ that resolves the battle
2011-11-16T11:59:48  <mcstar> maybe its clearer
2011-11-16T11:59:53  <Nealefelaen> mcstar: cheers, I'll have a look at that
2011-11-16T12:00:05  <UncleVasya> "now that i've fixed this bug i wonder how much worse my bot is"  oh, how many times it happend to everyone here :D
2011-11-16T12:00:44  <mcstar> hi UncleVasya
2011-11-16T12:00:49  <mcstar> i mean oleg
2011-11-16T12:00:54  <UncleVasya> Hi.
2011-11-16T12:01:01  <UncleVasya> :)
2011-11-16T12:01:13  <Minthos> thinking in terms of "focus" seems wrong
2011-11-16T12:01:25  <Minthos> the pseudocode explains everything
2011-11-16T12:01:51  <a1k0n> hm, to resubmit or not
2011-11-16T12:02:19  <Minthos> both blue ants have 2 green ants in range, and both blue ants have at least one green ant in range that has only two blue ants in range
2011-11-16T12:02:55  <Nealefelaen> ah
2011-11-16T12:03:14  <janzert> @later tell amstan yeah, I actually already had cycled the workers as of the early morning hours
2011-11-16T12:03:14  <contestbot> janzert: As you wish.
2011-11-16T12:03:41  <Nealefelaen> Minthos: and what about the one green ant that has three in range?
2011-11-16T12:04:12  <a1k0n> janzert: so do the worker nodes really cost ~0.07/cpu-hour?
2011-11-16T12:04:18  <a1k0n> what's the maximum bid?
2011-11-16T12:04:19  <Nealefelaen> I'm still reading up to the pseudo code, and the c++ code, and reassessing the screencap as well
2011-11-16T12:04:45  <Minthos> Nealefelaen: what about it? why doesn't it magically make one less blue ant die?
2011-11-16T12:05:21  <janzert> a1k0n: the maximum bid is stepped so that we're never paying more than a little over a dollar per hour
2011-11-16T12:05:54  <a1k0n> huh, what are the current prices then?  i thought it was much cheaper than $1/hour
2011-11-16T12:05:54  <Nealefelaen> so all three blues have to be attacking both greens?
2011-11-16T12:06:12  <a1k0n> oh for all machines total?
2011-11-16T12:06:24  <Nealefelaen> one less blue ant should die because one of the greens is distracted =P
2011-11-16T12:06:33  <janzert> for the workers total
2011-11-16T12:06:39  <a1k0n> i see
2011-11-16T12:06:45  * Nealefelaen goes back to reading the page explaining it
2011-11-16T12:06:57  <janzert> actually 6 workers are up but the prices just came back down from a spike
2011-11-16T12:07:01  <Minthos> Nealefelaen: yes and no - since thinking in terms of 'focus' is misleading :)
2011-11-16T12:07:02  <a1k0n> it sure would be nice if jeff could accept the money google is giving the contest
2011-11-16T12:07:03  <mcstar> Nealefelaen: scroll down till the math definition
2011-11-16T12:07:05  <janzert> so they're still initializing
2011-11-16T12:07:08  <mcstar> that is the clearest of all
2011-11-16T12:07:12  <Nealefelaen> yeah, I'm doing that =)
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2011-11-16T12:10:16  <pairofdice> Ugh, good thing I was inoculated against c++ as a wee lad
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2011-11-16T12:10:59  <mcstar> what happened? somebody sneezed C++ at you?
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2011-11-16T12:19:48  <a1k0n> lol: http://ants.fluxid.pl/replay.1549
2011-11-16T12:19:54  <a1k0n> i hate that map so much
2011-11-16T12:20:33  <Nealefelaen> lol, your ants can't get out?
2011-11-16T12:20:53  <Nealefelaen> there they go, at turn 250 =D
2011-11-16T12:21:18  <a1k0n> i can make it so they get out but if i do then nobody stays to defend the base
2011-11-16T12:21:46  <a1k0n> e.g.: http://tcpants.com/replay.3174
2011-11-16T12:22:04  <a1k0n> need to work on that
2011-11-16T12:22:16  <mcstar> :D
2011-11-16T12:22:37  <Nealefelaen> you can't split your ants somehow?
2011-11-16T12:22:42  <Nealefelaen> some stay and some go?
2011-11-16T12:22:48  <a1k0n> the only reason they left the base on the first one was because of the incoming attack, and then they followed it back to its source
2011-11-16T12:22:56  <mcstar> Nealefelaen: he want THEM to realize they should split
2011-11-16T12:23:01  <mcstar> s
2011-11-16T12:23:11  <a1k0n> i can, just not sure what the criterion should be.
2011-11-16T12:23:16  <a1k0n> have some ideas.
2011-11-16T12:23:32  <mcstar> im goona have hill defcon level
2011-11-16T12:23:33  <Nealefelaen> defend with at least x ants?
2011-11-16T12:23:36  <mcstar> halfway implemented
2011-11-16T12:23:41  <Yexo> McLeopold: http://ants.fluxid.pl/replay.1549 <- the scoring in that game is interesting. Manwe56v05 keeps 1 point for his hill without having any ants
2011-11-16T12:23:55  <Yexo> if he had had one ant somewhere else on the map his hill would've been razed and he would end up with 0 points
2011-11-16T12:24:05  <Yexo> but since the game stops when he has no ants left it doesn't
2011-11-16T12:24:40  <Nealefelaen> I'm hoping to have levels of safety, with defenders defending choke points that stop enemy ants getting in
2011-11-16T12:24:48  <Nealefelaen> Yexo: yeah, I've seen that in a few games
2011-11-16T12:24:56  <a1k0n> yeah that would be good on this map
2011-11-16T12:25:22  <mikewintermute> a1k0n: are you running on a different server?
2011-11-16T12:25:26  <Nealefelaen> it should be good on all maps... I just have to figure out an optimum way of detecting choke points
2011-11-16T12:25:38  <Yexo> http://ants.fluxid.pl/replay.1564 <- please point out the chokepoints
2011-11-16T12:25:53  <a1k0n> mikewintermute: ?  i'm running on both ants.fluxid.pl ant tcpants.com
2011-11-16T12:26:19  <Nealefelaen> Yexo: there are a couple, but it's more of a box around your hill
2011-11-16T12:27:46  <Nealefelaen> the definition of a choke point is a point where your ants can survive better against an endless amount of enemy
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2011-11-16T12:44:41  <CIA-53> aichallenge: janzert epsilon * r00bfda8 / setup/retrieve_languages.py : Update language download locations - http://git.io/Cv2Kgw
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2011-11-16T12:47:30  <CIA-53> aichallenge: janzert epsilon * re7819e5 / setup/worker_setup.py : Update worker_setup install for dart compiler - http://git.io/I0vB5g
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2011-11-16T12:56:32  <roflmao> I'm considering redoing the basis of my ant logic grounds up
2011-11-16T12:56:52  <roflmao> well, I'll keep al the functions I have built around the engine obviously, no need to redo the wheel
2011-11-16T12:56:57  <thestinger> roflmao: I'm doing that, I highly recommend it
2011-11-16T12:57:07  <roflmao> yea — i sent you some pms about i :)
2011-11-16T12:57:09  <roflmao> it*
2011-11-16T12:57:18  <thestinger> it's way inferior than my current version still, but I've learned a lot about what was good and bad about my old versions
2011-11-16T12:57:27  <roflmao> doing post-move combat analysis has the potential for being way better
2011-11-16T12:57:34  <roflmao> than just restricting certain options pre-move
2011-11-16T12:57:35  <thestinger> and found all kinds of bugs (aka features) I didn't know about
2011-11-16T12:57:46  <roflmao> yes hahahaha
2011-11-16T12:58:36  <thestinger> my rewrite lacks some bugs/features that made my original bot good
2011-11-16T12:58:53  <thestinger> but I'm actually going to implement those things in a proper way (not as unintentional side effects of bugs :P)
2011-11-16T12:58:56  <roflmao> do you run your ant through scenarios?
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2011-11-16T13:10:58  <McLeopold> Yexo: I think you found another bug :(
2011-11-16T13:11:46  <Yexo> first I thougth it worked according to the specs, but your changes yesterday made me doubt that
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2011-11-16T13:17:25  <CIA-53> aichallenge: McLeopold epsilon * rd4df584 / ants/ants.py : fix lone survivor ending to remove points for hills razed - http://git.io/L9poag
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2011-11-16T13:17:41  <McLeopold> Fluxid: once again, can you pull the latest code for a scoring change?
2011-11-16T13:17:51  <Garf> interesting. on tcpants.com my sigma finally dropped to 2.2
2011-11-16T13:17:57  <Garf> on fluxid it's still >3.0
2011-11-16T13:18:03  <McLeopold> and whoever runs tc-pants.com
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2011-11-16T13:18:50  <McLeopold> janzert: and, another score fix that needs to be pushed to workers
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2011-11-16T13:22:27  <amstan> janzert: you serious? how?
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2011-11-16T13:46:53  <emb_> e
2011-11-16T13:47:00  <Fluxid> McLeopold: pulled, merged, waiting for six games to finish
2011-11-16T13:47:16  <emb_> hard to get irc to work on my ubuntu..
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2011-11-16T13:47:23  <emb_> can anyone read this?
2011-11-16T13:47:39  <Minthos> yes
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2011-11-16T13:53:32  <Fluxid> i hope berak's usage of phpskill works well...
2011-11-16T13:54:09  <Fluxid> java one often failed and python one looked invalid
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2011-11-16T13:59:13  <Jether> ?
2011-11-16T13:59:17  <Jether> hi
2011-11-16T14:00:16  <Jether> i develop game on XNA
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2011-11-16T14:02:56  <pairofdice> Why are you not a millionnaire yet?
2011-11-16T14:03:50  <Garf> Fluxid: ah, is that whats on tcpants?
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2011-11-16T14:07:32  <Fluxid> Garf: dunno what is on tcpants, it looks modified but there is no fork on github
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2011-11-16T14:18:36  <bugnuts2> the tc-pants guy is romans01 on the forums, he said he would put his changes on github in one thread
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2011-11-16T14:19:49  <bugnuts2> but I could not find it either
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2011-11-16T14:42:24  <cJether> I am a game programmer
2011-11-16T14:42:27  <cJether> i like xna
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2011-11-16T14:42:42  <cJether> Is this a game development channel??
2011-11-16T14:44:01  <NoxiaZ^> what the the channel name tell you
2011-11-16T14:44:16  <NoxiaZ^> if you want a game development channel then join #gamedev
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2011-11-16T14:44:29  <mcstar> what is xna?
2011-11-16T14:44:59  <Garf> xbox indie development kit or smth
2011-11-16T14:44:59  <NoxiaZ^> XNA is used to develop games in C# :)
2011-11-16T14:45:08  <NoxiaZ^> both for xbox and windows
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2011-11-16T14:45:18  <mcstar> so irrelevant
2011-11-16T14:45:22  <NoxiaZ^> yep
2011-11-16T14:45:25  <mcstar> k
2011-11-16T14:45:41  <cJether> I don't know what is ai chanllenge
2011-11-16T14:45:50  <mcstar> cJether: check out the website
2011-11-16T14:45:52  <mcstar> you gonna love it
2011-11-16T14:46:01  <Minthos> did the workers die again? game rate is at 0.5
2011-11-16T14:46:02  <cJether> which website
2011-11-16T14:46:08  <mcstar> @tpoic
2011-11-16T14:46:09  <contestbot> mcstar: I do not know about 'tpoic', but I do know about these similar topics: 'topic'
2011-11-16T14:46:12  <mcstar> @topic
2011-11-16T14:46:12  <contestbot> mcstar: AI Challenge (sponsored by Google):  http://aichallenge.org || Channel Logs:  http://contestbot.aichallenge.org || Code Repo:  http://github.com/aichallenge/aichallenge || About the game (Ants):  http://aichallenge.org/problem_description.php || Submission deadline: December 18 23:59 EST
2011-11-16T14:46:15  <NoxiaZ^> cJether, just join #gamedev
2011-11-16T14:47:04  <Minthos> I don't know what the game rate should be, is 0.5 normal?
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2011-11-16T14:47:23  <mcstar> Minthos: sometimes they are worse
2011-11-16T14:47:26  <g0llum> only 2 workers alive
2011-11-16T14:47:32  <Minthos> ok
2011-11-16T14:48:00  <a1k0n> that's pretty low.  ec2 must be in demand
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2011-11-16T14:48:46  <a1k0n> i guess i'll be in 6329th place for a while
2011-11-16T14:49:14  <mcstar> a1k0n: not used to it right?
2011-11-16T14:49:39  <g0llum> a1kon, you can't be, i'm there !
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2011-11-16T14:51:16  <pairofdice> How many bots get to the final?
2011-11-16T14:52:12  <mcstar> all of them?
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2011-11-16T14:57:30  <Flapadar> Is it me or are games going far slower now?
2011-11-16T14:57:47  <roflmao> did you reset your bot?
2011-11-16T14:57:53  <roflmao> i.e. upload a new one?
2011-11-16T14:58:05  <Flapadar> No, ranked <2000 atm
2011-11-16T14:58:10  <Flapadar> It's saying I have 15 hours until the next game lol
2011-11-16T14:58:21  <Flapadar> 2 days until deactivation (so it's not that)
2011-11-16T14:58:46  <pairofdice> It's not you
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2011-11-16T15:51:40  <sashasochka> hi
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2011-11-16T15:53:52  <elderwolf_> Heh, we're down to .3 games per minute.  That about par?
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2011-11-16T15:54:30  <Antimony> seen a1k0n
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2011-11-16T15:55:56  <Antimony> hello?
2011-11-16T15:56:12  <elderwolf_> Hi.
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2011-11-16T15:57:41  <Antimony> oh
2011-11-16T15:57:54  <Antimony> noone was talking so I thought I had connection problems
2011-11-16T15:58:37  <Antimony> ContestBot seen a1k0n
2011-11-16T15:58:37  <contestbot> Antimony: a1k0n was last seen in #aichallenge 1 hour, 9 minutes, and 50 seconds ago: <a1k0n> i guess i'll be in 6329th place for a while
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2011-11-16T15:58:51  <Antimony> ContestBot seen BenJackson
2011-11-16T15:58:51  <contestbot> Antimony: BenJackson was last seen in #aichallenge 14 hours, 24 minutes, and 58 seconds ago: <BenJackson> wait until I finish downloading this episode of Lost with the pw site
2011-11-16T15:59:55  <elderwolf_> Heh, i'm assuming contestbot is running on same server that is hosting the challenge, and it needs a good reboot.
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2011-11-16T16:00:54  <borist> the server running the games is down? that's why the games per minute is so low at the momwnt?
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2011-11-16T16:01:26  <elderwolf> No, I'm speculating that it's running slow due to contestbot's extreme lag and the low gpm count.
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2011-11-16T16:03:58  <Yexo> I'm having a very strange problem
2011-11-16T16:04:31  <Yexo> game http://ants.fluxid.pl/replay.1627, turn 153, my bot (GotAnts) gets "a 65 77 0" as input
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2011-11-16T16:05:10  <Yexo> there is a single ant there, so that's alright, only in turn 152 my bot ordered that ant to go north
2011-11-16T16:05:25  <Yexo> since it doesn't expect an ant there, it assers (hence the timeout)
2011-11-16T16:07:08  <Yexo> http://paste.aichallenge.org/CoKNs/raw/ Here is the input my bot received on turn 152, partial input from turn 153 (until the offending ant) and the output from turn 152
2011-11-16T16:07:43  <Yexo> Are there other people that implemented state in their ants and have come acros this problem?
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2011-11-16T16:22:32  <Yexo> Is there any way to, given an html replay, replay that game using the engine (ie replace all bots by something that reads from the replay and executes those moves)?
2011-11-16T16:22:46  <Yexo> or any other ideas how to debug the beforementioned problem?
2011-11-16T16:24:40  <NightExcessive> What's the problem? (I just joined)
2011-11-16T16:25:28  <Yexo> http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/762/ <- log
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2011-11-16T16:42:02  <g0llum> ach, meine bloeden antzen schaffen's einfach nicht, zwei hauffen auf einmal zu schiessen
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2011-11-16T16:50:07  <amstan> g0llum: we mostly speak english in here
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2011-11-16T16:53:07  <g0llum> (wrong tab, pun, srry)
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2011-11-16T17:05:16  <janzert> amstan: the problem with the archive server seemed to be a combination of planetwars being the default site and the planetwars config was accepting any url and proxying it
2011-11-16T17:05:49  <amstan> how was planetwars accepting any url?
2011-11-16T17:06:15  <janzert> you can give it a try by re-enabling the site then set the http proxy in your browser to archive.aichallenge.org port 80
2011-11-16T17:06:46  <amstan> archive? we aren't using that yet
2011-11-16T17:06:55  <janzert> then visit say whatismyip.com and you'll see your traffic is going through that server
2011-11-16T17:07:04  <janzert> or just enter the ip directly
2011-11-16T17:07:16  <janzert> it didn't matter if we were using it someone found it :)
2011-11-16T17:07:28  <amstan> i don't remember setting up planetwars on the archive server
2011-11-16T17:07:29  <janzert> probably just scanning through ip addresses
2011-11-16T17:07:41  <amstan> i kinda gave up when mysql died
2011-11-16T17:07:42  <amstan> oh well
2011-11-16T17:07:45  <u_> amstan: what's the schedule for this stuff? will there be a winter 2011 or a spring/summer ever?
2011-11-16T17:07:58  <janzert> it looked like the config was just copied over from what is on the main server currently
2011-11-16T17:08:01  <amstan> u_: depends on how fast we develop
2011-11-16T17:08:12  <amstan> janzert: yeah.. ok, that's not that bad then, keep it off
2011-11-16T17:08:31  <amstan> i tought you were talking about the normal setup we have now on the main server
2011-11-16T17:08:32  <janzert> I got the directories rearranged now btw
2011-11-16T17:08:35  <amstan> ok, cool
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2011-11-16T17:08:55  <janzert> no, that is working fine because the planetwars config isn't the default site
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2011-11-16T17:09:23  <janzert> so any unrecognized url goes to aichallenge.org
2011-11-16T17:09:24  <amstan> so it's not proxying stuff
2011-11-16T17:09:27  <Yexo> sorry to repeat myself again, but does any of you have suggestions for how to debug the engine? More explenation here: http://paste.openttdcoop.org/show/762/
2011-11-16T17:09:38  <magiik> man wtf all the amazon ec2 us-east micro instances are like above $1
2011-11-16T17:09:53  <janzert> just planetwars.aichallenge.org to jeff's server as ai-contest.com like it should be
2011-11-16T17:10:04  <amstan> ok, cool
2011-11-16T17:10:10  <amstan> i just found some broken links on that site
2011-11-16T17:10:13  <amstan> from the winner stuff
2011-11-16T17:10:17  <amstan> on the homepage
2011-11-16T17:10:26  <janzert> at least from what I could see in my quick look at it
2011-11-16T17:10:36  <janzert> yeah, I noticed that before
2011-11-16T17:10:47  <janzert> some of the winner links have gone away right?
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2011-11-16T17:10:56  <janzert> the links to their personal sites I mean
2011-11-16T17:11:05  <amstan> janzert: that's fine
2011-11-16T17:11:21  <amstan> i'm talking about the fact where if i click on bocsimacko.  it points to the current site
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2011-11-16T17:11:29  <amstan> they're hardcoded
2011-11-16T17:12:09  <janzert> hmm, yeah looks like they're absolute urls
2011-11-16T17:12:21  <janzert> they should be relative urls and they'd be fine :(
2011-11-16T17:12:57  <amstan> ok, fixed
2011-11-16T17:13:08  <amstan> oh man, i hate 80 column lines
2011-11-16T17:13:18  <amstan> you want to do any change, it's like impossible
2011-11-16T17:13:23  <amstan> without it looking bad
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2011-11-16T17:14:15  <janzert> gq}
2011-11-16T17:14:17  <janzert> ;)
2011-11-16T17:14:42  <amstan> janzert: any news from jeff?
2011-11-16T17:15:02  <janzert> he wrote me an email today, must not have gone to the list?
2011-11-16T17:15:09  <janzert> he just got the paypal account set up
2011-11-16T17:15:23  <janzert> hopefully that means we can get a button on the front page soon
2011-11-16T17:15:26  <amstan> nope, apparently he didn't list it
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2011-11-16T17:15:43  <amstan> what about google?
2011-11-16T17:15:59  <janzert> doesn't mention anything about talking to google
2011-11-16T17:16:29  <kara> donations for more workers?
2011-11-16T17:17:39  <amstan> kara: yes
2011-11-16T17:19:16  <avdg> :-)
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2011-11-16T17:30:48  <ihtisham> hey, why is the game rate too slow?
2011-11-16T17:31:46  <pairofdice> <insert sarcastic remark>
2011-11-16T17:32:53  <g0llum> because it's interpolated over time, 5 of 6 possible workers running now ( was 2 minutes ago )
2011-11-16T17:33:30  <amstan> well.. there's no real upper limit on worker
2011-11-16T17:33:32  <amstan> workers*
2011-11-16T17:33:40  <g0llum> money ?
2011-11-16T17:33:47  <amstan> yes
2011-11-16T17:33:53  <amstan> s/real/technical
2011-11-16T17:34:00  <amstan> nvm
2011-11-16T17:34:02  <amstan> that exists too
2011-11-16T17:34:06  <g0llum> never seen more than 6
2011-11-16T17:34:06  <amstan> but it'll be like 100
2011-11-16T17:34:12  <g0llum> ;)
2011-11-16T17:34:46  <g0llum> time for a raindance
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2011-11-16T18:03:07  <davidmoreau> hi
2011-11-16T18:03:22  <davidmoreau> looking for a contest organizer, lost my password :)
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2011-11-16T18:06:30  <davm85> well, guess i'd have to setup another one
2011-11-16T18:07:51  <thestinger> davm85: http://aichallenge.org/forgot.php
2011-11-16T18:08:26  <davm85> well thanks, but i actually forgot also the username :S
2011-11-16T18:09:30  <thestinger> amstan: ^
2011-11-16T18:09:45  <davm85> forgot password flows without email makes me feel old
2011-11-16T18:12:59  <thestinger> well, I'm sure amstan will help you when he gets back
2011-11-16T18:13:13  <davm85> thx thestinger
2011-11-16T18:13:17  <thestinger> if you just want to test stuff, you can use the tcp server for now
2011-11-16T18:13:27  <amstan> davm85: what's your email?
2011-11-16T18:13:28  <thestinger> http://ants.fluxid.pl/
2011-11-16T18:16:09  <magiik> wow us-east1d micro instance spot price is at $5 jesus christ
2011-11-16T18:16:56  <janzert> yeah, ec2 is having some really weird spot prices this week
2011-11-16T18:17:15  <a1k0n> isn't it cheaper to just buy an instance?
2011-11-16T18:17:26  <magiik> right now it is
2011-11-16T18:17:41  <magiik> but i usually pay like $.02 for the spot instances cuz it's cheaper most of the time
2011-11-16T18:17:44  <a1k0n> i suppose not overall.  must be some big mapreduce
2011-11-16T18:17:46  <janzert> at times I'm pretty sure that no matter how high you bid recently it isn't going to give you an instance
2011-11-16T18:17:58  <magiik> if it's some big mapreduce - why use micro isntances? haha
2011-11-16T18:18:10  <a1k0n> because each one is small?  shrug
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2011-11-16T18:18:20  <a1k0n> maybe they're cracking passwords
2011-11-16T18:18:29  <a1k0n> really valuable ones
2011-11-16T18:18:36  <magiik> if your bid is higher than someone else who hsa an instane, it will eventually boot them off and give itto you
2011-11-16T18:18:39  <janzert> earlier in the week it was us-east1b not it seems to be 1a and 1d
2011-11-16T18:18:48  <magiik> a1k0n: prolly easier to do it in a GPU?
2011-11-16T18:18:56  <magiik> it's all 3, they are all above like $1 right now
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2011-11-16T18:19:11  <magiik> yeah usually it's less than a cent
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2011-11-16T18:19:18  <janzert> magiik: I have a feeling there weren't any spot instances available period though
2011-11-16T18:19:24  <magiik> i'm in the process of moving over to us-west oregon
2011-11-16T18:19:25  <a1k0n> true
2011-11-16T18:19:29  <magiik> but god damnt i have to manually move my volume data
2011-11-16T18:19:47  <magiik> janzert: ahhh - i see what you are saying, just spot instances in general since they are the "leftovers"
2011-11-16T18:20:03  <janzert> right
2011-11-16T18:20:45  <janzert> it certainly has been causing havoc with our workers :(
2011-11-16T18:20:53  <magiik> man this server has been running as a spot instance with a .20 bid for like a year
2011-11-16T18:20:57  <magiik> and this last month or two spot pricing has been going crazy
2011-11-16T18:21:05  <magiik> is aichallenge on us-east too?
2011-11-16T18:21:11  <janzert> yep
2011-11-16T18:22:03  <magiik> i need some sort of management script, whenever my spot instance does come back up, it loses it's elastic ip
2011-11-16T18:22:28  <magiik> and i need a better way to keep that EBS volume linked up to the new instance too
2011-11-16T18:22:28  <janzert> yeah, I wish the ip tied to the spot request
2011-11-16T18:22:38  <janzert> and that as well :)
2011-11-16T18:23:26  <magiik> such a pain in the ass right now the way i do it - create a snapshot of the orphaned volume, then have to re-create the AMI with that snapshot, then re-request the spot
2011-11-16T18:24:19  <janzert> yeah, using ebs as a root volume for spot instances doesn't work well at all right now
2011-11-16T18:24:33  <janzert> at least not I haven't found a way for it to
2011-11-16T18:24:42  <magiik> yeah...
2011-11-16T18:24:49  <magiik> and i'm too entrenched in this server's config now
2011-11-16T18:25:29  <magiik> damn us-west cali is having some weird spot price ripples too, but not  breaking $1
2011-11-16T18:25:35  <NightExcessive> I simply store my configs on S3 and have my spot instances download them on start. :)
2011-11-16T18:26:18  <amstan> janzert: people on the forums are debating that we should keep the workers on during high prices
2011-11-16T18:26:43  <amstan> but i disagree, especially if it's 50 times more expensive, right?
2011-11-16T18:26:53  <magiik> more than 50....
2011-11-16T18:26:59  <amstan> yeah
2011-11-16T18:27:08  <NightExcessive> amstan: What size instance are you using for workers?
2011-11-16T18:27:34  <janzert> m2.xlarge
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2011-11-16T18:28:10  <NightExcessive> Icky. I definitely wouldn't leave them running.
2011-11-16T18:28:43  <magiik> hrm... actually price differntial on m2.xlarge is only like 50x right now.... but yeah that's a lot of cash
2011-11-16T18:28:44  <janzert> basically we've got funds currently to spend ~$1 an hour on workers
2011-11-16T18:29:10  <janzert> so it doesn't really matter too much what people think it's what we've got ;)
2011-11-16T18:29:27  <NightExcessive> Indeed :P
2011-11-16T18:29:49  <magiik> yeah i was gonna say, if you have enough for $1/hr then there's no way you can leave them up when east-1c is jumping up to $5 lol
2011-11-16T18:30:04  <janzert> yep :)
2011-11-16T18:30:06  <magiik> you guys have scripts to spool instances up and down? or you just go off the instance getting terminated when it crosses the bid threshold?
2011-11-16T18:30:23  <NightExcessive> magiik: The manager is capable of starting instances. I know that.
2011-11-16T18:30:48  <janzert> they're permanent spot requests at the threshold prices and the user_data script brings it up as worker
2011-11-16T18:31:21  <magiik> wonder if it's worth the effort to switch to regular instances if the spot price is exceeding that price
2011-11-16T18:32:08  <NightExcessive> Maybe. Though, the spot prices should go back down as soon as Amazon installs new physical nodes.
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2011-11-16T18:37:37  <mikewintermute> if I run python tools/playgame.py (without the visualizer option) I only get 1 replay file numbered 0.replay. How do I store ALL games (plus the html launch files)?
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2011-11-16T18:41:49  <mikewintermute> aha. --html
2011-11-16T18:42:08  <mikewintermute> hmm - that only lets you write to the named file.
2011-11-16T18:46:59  <magiik> u can change the #.replay
2011-11-16T18:47:01  <magiik> with -g #
2011-11-16T18:47:03  <magiik> IIRC
2011-11-16T18:47:15  <magiik> python tools/playgame.py
2011-11-16T18:47:18  <magiik> will give you all the CLI switches
2011-11-16T18:47:41  <mikewintermute> magiik: thanks
2011-11-16T18:47:52  <magiik> i dont think there is any "auto-increment" built into the script
2011-11-16T18:48:00  <magiik> so you'd have to make your own wrapper around it if you wanted automatic functionality
2011-11-16T18:48:02  <McLeopold> there is -runs i think
2011-11-16T18:48:15  <magiik> ah -r
2011-11-16T18:48:23  <McLeopold> but not between runs
2011-11-16T18:48:25  <magiik> then yeah i gues it would auto-increment, starting from -g #
2011-11-16T18:48:34  <janzert> actually did go to regular instance for a while earlier this week
2011-11-16T18:49:06  <amstan> janzert: doesn't that mean a different cpu?
2011-11-16T18:49:12  <janzert> no
2011-11-16T18:49:17  <janzert> same instance type
2011-11-16T18:49:23  <janzert> just different pricing
2011-11-16T18:49:27  <McLeopold> amstan: heard from j3camero lately? about accepting donations?
2011-11-16T18:49:29  <magiik> yeah same number of compute units
2011-11-16T18:49:41  <magiik> they are exactly the same - except for price/availability
2011-11-16T18:50:02  <janzert> McLeopold: yeah, he wrote me earlier today and has paypal setup now
2011-11-16T18:50:15  <janzert> so hopefully he can get us a donate button soon
2011-11-16T18:50:20  <McLeopold> oh, cool, so we need a button on the page now?
2011-11-16T18:50:51  <McLeopold> janzert: I assume you can do the calculations to know when to add more workers?
2011-11-16T18:51:03  <McLeopold> to spend the donated money as fast as possible :)
2011-11-16T18:51:11  <janzert> of course :)
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2011-11-16T18:51:25  <mcstar> my updated battle resolver is ready
2011-11-16T18:51:42  <McLeopold> janzert: what would you think about limiting starter bots to 10 games, lifetime max?
2011-11-16T18:52:01  <McLeopold> across users, so even if they upload a starter a second time, it wouldn't play
2011-11-16T18:52:21  <janzert> accross submissions you mean
2011-11-16T18:52:30  <McLeopold> yeah, maybe :)
2011-11-16T18:52:31  <janzert> I'm not sure
2011-11-16T18:52:34  <janzert> for or against
2011-11-16T18:52:51  <mcstar> how can i remove a file from git?
2011-11-16T18:52:51  <McLeopold> how about detecting starters and setting the mu to 0?
2011-11-16T18:52:58  <mcstar> i.e. to tell it not to track it
2011-11-16T18:53:00  <McLeopold> "git rm <filename>"
2011-11-16T18:53:04  <mcstar> thx
2011-11-16T18:53:06  <janzert> how would you decide it was a starter as well?
2011-11-16T18:53:10  <McLeopold> you'll need to commit it as well
2011-11-16T18:53:20  <McLeopold> which is weird because you commit a non-existant file
2011-11-16T18:53:44  <mcstar> McLeopold: ok, and how can i list all tracked files?
2011-11-16T18:53:46  <McLeopold> janzert: assuming I can detect it of course, I'm going to try submission hashes then build a database
2011-11-16T18:53:51  <McLeopold> "git status"
2011-11-16T18:53:54  <mcstar> stupid questions, but i didnt find these
2011-11-16T18:53:56  <mcstar> ah
2011-11-16T18:54:37  <janzert> :( yeah, that seems so fragile but I'm not sure if there's a better way
2011-11-16T18:54:38  <mcstar> no, status doesnt list tracked files
2011-11-16T18:56:17  <janzert> Maybe set up an admin page that lists submissions with same hash and allow the admin to mark them as starter bots
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2011-11-16T18:58:18  <janzert> at the same time I don't know that this will significantly increase the game rates for others and could cause ranking problems :(
2011-11-16T18:58:18  <Raimondi> git ls-files
2011-11-16T18:59:23  <janzert> there are already 2405 deactivated bots that didn't get a game in the last 24 hours
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2011-11-16T18:59:43  <mcstar> Raimondi: thx
2011-11-16T18:59:50  <janzert> so a little over a third already
2011-11-16T18:59:51  <Raimondi> np
2011-11-16T19:00:10  <mcstar> so if anyone feels like experimenting, please clone: https://github.com/liquid-phynix/ants-fight.git
2011-11-16T19:00:20  <mcstar> and have qt ready
2011-11-16T19:00:29  <NightExcessive> I don't see anything horrible the idea. Getting a hash of the starter zips and limiting it to 10 games/starter package/user seems reasonable.
2011-11-16T19:00:49  <amstan> NightExcessive: i just updated 2 starter packages today
2011-11-16T19:00:57  <amstan> not everyone updates
2011-11-16T19:01:19  <NightExcessive> amstan: It's simple enough to keep a hash list of old & current starter packages :)
2011-11-16T19:01:22  <mcstar> amstan: amstan, pls try it again, its much better
2011-11-16T19:01:24  <janzert> yeah, that's the fragility of it. there are going to be lots of starter bot hashes and more all the time
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2011-11-16T19:02:00  <amstan> NightExcessive: it is? what happens when a new version of another starter bot gets released?
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2011-11-16T19:02:19  <NightExcessive> amstan: I'm not sure I see your point. What do you mean?
2011-11-16T19:02:38  <amstan> we keep making new starter packages, with different contents
2011-11-16T19:02:43  <amstan> all of them have different hashes
2011-11-16T19:03:22  <mcstar> a change of 1 characters throws off the hash, but it is still a starter bot
2011-11-16T19:03:26  <mcstar> -s
2011-11-16T19:03:32  <analyst74> is starter package a serious problem? how many starter bots are active?
2011-11-16T19:03:52  <mcstar> id say more than half of all bots
2011-11-16T19:03:53  <amstan> we already have a 3 day timeout, i seriously doubt any contestant keeps starter packages alive
2011-11-16T19:03:56  <NightExcessive> mcstar: Fair enough. Though, this would solve simple situations where it's the package just downloaded and re-uploaded.
2011-11-16T19:04:01  <janzert> mcstar: I doubt it
2011-11-16T19:04:08  <mcstar> janzert: how much then?
2011-11-16T19:04:12  <janzert> there are only ~900 bots active
2011-11-16T19:04:22  <janzert> and 2400 bots haven't played at all
2011-11-16T19:04:22  <mcstar> so you mean even more?
2011-11-16T19:04:28  <janzert> in the last day
2011-11-16T19:04:31  <NightExcessive> amstan: How large is the database of submissions? String comparison is fairly cheap, but I could see comparing (a few thousand strings)*20 being expensive.
2011-11-16T19:04:45  <janzert> so I have a feeling most starter bots already aren't playing
2011-11-16T19:05:02  <amstan> NightExcessive: why are you concerned about this?
2011-11-16T19:05:30  <NightExcessive> amstan: I was just curious about the size, as it limits the practicality of the idea.
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2011-11-16T19:06:13  <amstan> NightExcessive: searching in a db is rarely linear
2011-11-16T19:06:28  <amstan> unless it's configured wrong
2011-11-16T19:06:33  <mcstar> amstan: pls take a look, cause if you feel it is useful, ill make a forum post or something
2011-11-16T19:06:43  <mcstar> anyway, its sort of bad that it depends on qt
2011-11-16T19:06:54  <amstan> looks good though
2011-11-16T19:07:04  <mcstar> do you think a binary distribution is a problem?
2011-11-16T19:07:08  <amstan> yes
2011-11-16T19:07:18  <mcstar> even if its from github?
2011-11-16T19:07:22  <mcstar> i mean the binary
2011-11-16T19:07:22  <janzert> there have been 23,719 submissions so far. I doubt the computational load of implementing this is an impediment in any way
2011-11-16T19:07:28  <amstan> you shouldn't have binaries on github in the first place
2011-11-16T19:07:37  <mcstar> yeah, but i can have
2011-11-16T19:07:49  <mcstar> but seen this latest one?
2011-11-16T19:08:11  <mcstar> theres a transition effect, and you can more conveniently add/remove ants
2011-11-16T19:09:17  <NightExcessive> If it would really have an effect on the game rate I don't see a problem with using a simple hash and category system. Categorize the starter packs by language and look for matching hashes, then count them per category per user- and don't allow more than 10 games per category (from each user).
2011-11-16T19:09:37  <amstan> NightExcessive: you don't get it
2011-11-16T19:09:47  <amstan> NightExcessive: some starter packages have like 10 versions, so 10 different hashes
2011-11-16T19:09:47  <NightExcessive> Oh?
2011-11-16T19:10:02  <janzert> keeping the hash database up to date is what will be the pain
2011-11-16T19:10:05  <amstan> and i don't even think we can get the hashes of the old versions
2011-11-16T19:10:14  <amstan> the zips might have dates in them or something
2011-11-16T19:10:32  <amstan> unless we do hashes of the contents
2011-11-16T19:10:41  <NightExcessive> If they're in git, you can simply go back to the commit with them in it. I can see how it could be a pain keeping the hashes up-to-date.
2011-11-16T19:11:02  <janzert> ugh, currently we don't uncompress a submission on the main server at all
2011-11-16T19:11:06  <magiik> contents... you could zip it up different ways right?
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2011-11-16T19:11:31  <janzert> I suppose the worker could report back on the content hash though
2011-11-16T19:11:54  <amstan> janzert: don't we already have that 3 day timeout on submissions?
2011-11-16T19:11:59  <janzert> but it does seem to add a lot of complexity for what looks like little gain
2011-11-16T19:12:02  <janzert> right
2011-11-16T19:12:17  <amstan> i really don't think begginers keep their starter bots active
2011-11-16T19:12:29  <amstan> they'll stay active at most 3 days
2011-11-16T19:12:29  <NightExcessive> janzert: I agree... it doesn't seem like a pressing issue, nor does it seem it would really speed up the games per second.
2011-11-16T19:12:32  <magiik> and if someone is activating their starter bot... it's not like they are activating another bot since you aren't supposed to have multi accounts
2011-11-16T19:12:43  <janzert> most users don't keep their submission active :/
2011-11-16T19:12:57  <magiik> i even lose my real submission's activity every once in a while
2011-11-16T19:12:58  <mcstar> amstan: doesnt it mean only that those cant be seeds,
2011-11-16T19:13:00  <janzert> there are currently 946 active
2011-11-16T19:13:05  <mcstar> they still play games
2011-11-16T19:13:11  <amstan> mcstar: sure, nothing wrong with that
2011-11-16T19:13:37  <mcstar> so isnt the issue of sparing resources?
2011-11-16T19:13:44  <mcstar> (i was late to join in)
2011-11-16T19:14:06  <janzert> oops, actually there 1016 active.
2011-11-16T19:14:08  <Minthos> you could hash all submissions, store the hashes, and reject any bots with hashes identical to more than just a few other bots - but the tutorial/intro thing tells players to upload the starting kit so maybe it's better to just let people do it and keep the current system
2011-11-16T19:14:23  <amstan> yes.. but i don't think it's worth implementing such a complicated system for such few speedups
2011-11-16T19:14:39  <janzert> Minthos: right we still want people to start with uploading a starter for sure
2011-11-16T19:14:41  <magiik> how about not letting inactive bots below a certain rank even play at all
2011-11-16T19:14:58  <janzert> 1/3rd of bots aren't playing now ;)
2011-11-16T19:15:31  <magiik> even as a new submission comes in with lowest rank?
2011-11-16T19:15:56  <janzert> yep, a little more than 1/3rd of bots have not played in the last day
2011-11-16T19:16:02  <mcstar> how about segmenting the ranking, and give higher cuts more time on the server?
2011-11-16T19:16:19  <magiik> i would think the inverse... give lower cuts more time heh
2011-11-16T19:16:23  <magiik> otherwise how are you going to get up there?
2011-11-16T19:16:26  <amstan> magiik: i don't think that's a good idea from a rankings perspective
2011-11-16T19:16:35  <janzert> remember even though a new submission is ranked at the bottom it starts off playing in the roughly the middle of the established rankings
2011-11-16T19:16:49  <janzert> and goes up from there so long as it wins
2011-11-16T19:16:49  <mcstar> well, thats the point: there are more bad bots than good ones, they need to play less
2011-11-16T19:17:08  <mcstar> yep
2011-11-16T19:17:14  <mcstar> not from the absolute end
2011-11-16T19:17:26  <janzert> we want people who are actively working on their bot to get games even if their bot isn't so good :}
2011-11-16T19:18:01  <mcstar> btw, was it surprise for you guys that there are over 10k participants
2011-11-16T19:18:03  <mcstar> ?
2011-11-16T19:18:14  <magiik> how was it for the other competitions? is this the most popular so far?
2011-11-16T19:18:21  <mcstar> i celebrated the 10kth user with a rainbow
2011-11-16T19:18:24  <magiik> this is my 1st ai challenege, though i did hear about the galcon one
2011-11-16T19:18:25  <mcstar> message
2011-11-16T19:18:29  <janzert> I thought we'd got to 10k but not till about the end of the competition
2011-11-16T19:18:42  <amstan> we had a pretty exponential growth since the first contest
2011-11-16T19:19:05  <janzert> last competition had 7200 users and 4619 active submissions
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2011-11-16T19:20:40  <janzert> besides ec2 being funky with its spot prices this week the rate of games a server can get out has gone down quite a bit (i.e. bots are using a lot more of their time on average now)
2011-11-16T19:21:11  <janzert> which also points to the probability that we're playing much fewer starter bots
2011-11-16T19:21:24  <magiik> yeah that makes sense
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2011-11-16T19:23:44  <mcstar> nite
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2011-11-16T19:56:27  <Cowbandit> boop
2011-11-16T19:59:08  <amstan> Cowbandit: ?
2011-11-16T20:00:39  <Cowbandit> amstan: double boop
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2011-11-16T20:02:50  <Cowbandit> oi quick question: why are bot ranks reset after a new revision is submitted?
2011-11-16T20:03:06  <amstan> Cowbandit: there's a topic on the forums about that
2011-11-16T20:03:15  <Cowbandit> ok thanks
2011-11-16T20:03:19  <Cowbandit> also i was wondering
2011-11-16T20:03:30  <Cowbandit> does me typing boop produce any boop sound
2011-11-16T20:03:36  <amstan> no
2011-11-16T20:03:40  <Cowbandit> darn
2011-11-16T20:03:41  <amstan> you're just looking weird
2011-11-16T20:06:29  <gcflymoto> would the boundary points of the python package visible() algorithm match a python Bresenham complete circle algorithm?
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2011-11-16T20:12:18  <u_> 2 haskell bots in the top 100 :D
2011-11-16T20:13:56  <Anilm3> ::D
2011-11-16T20:14:04  <amstan> rubber duck you say?
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2011-11-16T20:20:52  <gcflymoto> let me rephrase. an ant out by its lonesome self has a vision radius of sqrt(ants.viewradius2) .. the boundary would be the points along the circle of the view radius.. question is whether Bresenham's circle algorithm match those points.. probably not because of the rounding during sqrt()?
2011-11-16T20:21:31  <amstan> gcflymoto: i'm not familiar with that algorithm
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2011-11-16T20:27:21  <mleise> gcflymoto: that algorithm would have to be able to deal with non-integral radii.
2011-11-16T20:27:41  <Rinum> how does combat work? if distance between 2 ants is < attack radius?
2011-11-16T20:27:56  <mleise> There is no rounding during sqrt !
2011-11-16T20:28:19  <mleise> Rinum: yes, <= attack radius
2011-11-16T20:28:37  <Rinum> also, it seems attacks can happen diagonally? so the calculated distance is a little different
2011-11-16T20:28:48  <mleise> But use the squared radius and squared distance, it is faster that way
2011-11-16T20:29:31  <Rinum> what do you mean?
2011-11-16T20:29:32  <a1k0n> i'm sure bresenham would give you the same result
2011-11-16T20:29:32  <janzert> Rinum: all radius measurements use euclidean distance
2011-11-16T20:29:34  <mleise> Rinum: the values are radii so they describe a circle (in euclidean metric)
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2011-11-16T20:29:59  <a1k0n> but does it matter?  it's easy enough to brute force it once at the start of the bot
2011-11-16T20:30:00  <amstan> have you guys seen this? http://www.franz.com/services/conferences_seminars/webinar_1-20-11.lhtml
2011-11-16T20:30:13  <Rinum> janzert mleise thanks
2011-11-16T20:30:17  <amstan> it's a talk from mega1 on the contest and his botr
2011-11-16T20:31:13  <janzert> yes, he did that a little while after the competition
2011-11-16T20:32:51  <a1k0n> hmm, no _iouri_ for this contest
2011-11-16T20:33:12  <analyst74> trying to stay out of trouble maybe?
2011-11-16T20:33:36  <a1k0n> nor dmj111
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2011-11-16T21:15:07  <bmh> a1k0n: If I did my math correct, I can do exact pathfinding in something like O(sqrt n) with O(n) preprocessing work
2011-11-16T21:15:35  <bmh> or perhaps O(sqrt(n) * sqrt(sqrt(n)))
2011-11-16T21:16:44  <Antimony> what is n?
2011-11-16T21:16:55  <bmh> Antimony: oh right -- the size of the map
2011-11-16T21:17:05  <Antimony> you mean one of the dimensions?
2011-11-16T21:17:09  <bmh> no
2011-11-16T21:17:15  <Antimony> oh the total area/
2011-11-16T21:17:51  <a1k0n> bmh: really?  what are you precomputing?
2011-11-16T21:19:06  <bmh> a1k0n: for a map of size n, subdivide the map. For each subdivision find the a path from each cell to each neighboring subdivision
2011-11-16T21:19:42  <bmh> On a general graph, this wouldn't guarantee shortest pathes, but I believe (have not proven...) that it should give exact queries given the restricted graph we're working with
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2011-11-16T21:20:53  <Antimony> I think the preprocessing will take more than O(n). Maybe O(nlogn)
2011-11-16T21:21:25  <Antimony> anyway, pathfinding usually doesn't take much time
2011-11-16T21:21:49  <Antimony> I can find the closest target to each ant in only a couple ms
2011-11-16T21:22:05  <bmh> Antimony: The preprocessing cost should be O(#subdivisions * #subdivision_size * #neighbors)
2011-11-16T21:22:44  <Rinum> I'm still trying to forcing myself to use CD x.x my bot seems to be improving
2011-11-16T21:23:00  <bmh> The number of neighbors is independent of the size of the map.
2011-11-16T21:24:34  <bmh> with sqrt(n) subdivisions of size sqrt(n) it comes out O(n)
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2011-11-16T21:36:12  <bmh> (and to pontificate a bit more -- any reasonable subdivision will give you four neighbors)
2011-11-16T21:36:34  <a1k0n> bmh: that would work with a maze?
2011-11-16T21:36:56  <bmh> I see no reason why it wouldn't.
2011-11-16T21:36:57  <a1k0n> oh, i see.  you make a kind of quadtree where the path through each cell in the quadtree is obvious
2011-11-16T21:37:15  <a1k0n> which you were sort of proposing before, but with more general open rectangles
2011-11-16T21:38:02  <a1k0n> you might have up to 2N-1 nodes in that graph
2011-11-16T21:38:06  <a1k0n> tree, whatever
2011-11-16T21:38:38  <bmh> how do you figure? I'm only proposing a single level of hierarchy
2011-11-16T21:38:50  <a1k0n> oh
2011-11-16T21:39:07  <a1k0n> how big will the cells be in the maze?
2011-11-16T21:40:51  <bmh> It really doesn't matter. The cost of stitching the supercells together is (#cells * #neighbors)
2011-11-16T21:41:14  <bmh> the danger is some pathological case where the number of edges explodes
2011-11-16T21:41:15  <amstan> bmh, a1k0n: you guys should make a team
2011-11-16T21:41:19  <a1k0n> but if your supercell is full of walls bisecting it, what good is it?
2011-11-16T21:41:28  <a1k0n> bmh wants to
2011-11-16T21:41:31  <bmh> amstan: I've been trying to convince him to join my team for the past few weeks
2011-11-16T21:41:37  <bmh> trouble is my team is rubbish.
2011-11-16T21:41:44  <amstan> your team? lol
2011-11-16T21:41:52  <amstan> you have a team already?
2011-11-16T21:42:17  <bmh> amstan: yeah, I recruited a co-worker I went to college with. We once wrote a genetic alg to play Tetris... in haskell
2011-11-16T21:42:21  <analyst74> you'd need some efficient way to divide cells utilizing as much natural barriers (water) as possible
2011-11-16T21:43:22  <analyst74> although this sounds like a common problem, must have known algorithms for it
2011-11-16T21:43:40  <amstan> I want Norvig's pen!
2011-11-16T21:43:45  <amstan> it looks awesome!
2011-11-16T21:43:46  <bmh> analyst74: I was just going to place points on a jittered grid and BFS from them
2011-11-16T21:43:50  <bmh> amstan: link?
2011-11-16T21:43:58  <bmh> (is it a fountain pen?)
2011-11-16T21:44:06  <amstan> i has a circuit board on it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dX8VPYXd3hs#!
2011-11-16T21:44:52  <bmh> oh. That's neat.
2011-11-16T21:45:40  <a1k0n> what an apropos lecture
2011-11-16T21:45:56  <amstan> a1k0n: yeah, i'm going through ai-class
2011-11-16T21:46:17  <a1k0n> U is usually called V (value function)
2011-11-16T21:48:29  <bmh> I want to see a bot that uses the Richar Feynman algorithm to win.
2011-11-16T21:48:40  <amstan> bmh: details?
2011-11-16T21:48:52  <a1k0n> integrates all possible future states out?
2011-11-16T21:49:06  <bmh> amstan: 1. Write down the problem. 2. Think really hard. 3. Write down the solution.
2011-11-16T21:49:12  <amstan> lol
2011-11-16T21:50:08  <amstan> too bad it only works well in a deterministic and nonstochatic enviroment
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2011-11-16T21:56:04  <mleise> bmh: What happens when you look at your quad-tree and start and target are in the same square? Do you consider the other squares?
2011-11-16T21:56:08  <amstan> i just said the same thing.. lol
2011-11-16T21:56:15  <amstan> deterministic and fully observable*
2011-11-16T21:56:28  <amstan> i sent an email a while ago to the mailing list
2011-11-16T21:56:38  <amstan> about possibly getting a plug from ai-class for our contest
2011-11-16T21:56:43  <bmh> mleise: then just pathfind to it normally ignoring the quad-tree
2011-11-16T21:57:11  <mleise> no, i mean they are in the same 'hypersquare', like a quarter of the map
2011-11-16T21:58:09  <bmh> mleise: I'm only proposing a two-level graph
2011-11-16T21:58:38  <mleise> does that mean that the granularity would be 1x1 and 2x2?
2011-11-16T21:59:46  <bmh> 1x1, sqrt(n) x sqrt(n)  for an n x n graph
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2011-11-16T22:02:12  <mleise> for a map of 100x100 that means 100 10x10 cells, right? And these are straight forward rectangles on the map?
2011-11-16T22:02:56  <bmh> mleise: I'm not sure about the point placement strategy (uniform, uniform random, poisson disk sampling, jittered grid) -- but I think it makes sense to construct the cells by BFS
2011-11-16T22:03:22  <mleise> ok, now i get the picture ;)
2011-11-16T22:03:51  <bmh> it would be cool to minimize the number of cells on edges.
2011-11-16T22:05:26  <mleise> You need to have cells consisting only of connected squares, else what would happen in a maze where two points are in the same cell, but not physically connected there.
2011-11-16T22:05:48  <bmh> if you constructed it by BFS, that isn't possible.
2011-11-16T22:06:05  <mleise> dito, so no random sampling
2011-11-16T22:07:05  <mleise> still you may end up with cell A being first and claiming an area that 'carves' out cell C
2011-11-16T22:07:34  <mleise> so the shortest path inside C for some points may be through that part of A
2011-11-16T22:08:14  <bmh> I'm not sure about convexity guarantees.
2011-11-16T22:08:58  <mleise> -> so you need to write a thesis, proof it and come up with an algorithm to guarantee it ;)
2011-11-16T22:10:12  <mleise> It does exist. If your cells are 1x1 they are all convex. So ... if you go from there you have a solid foundation, hehe
2011-11-16T22:10:29  <amstan> so.. i forgot about rotational symmetries
2011-11-16T22:10:45  <amstan> i guess 2 player point symmetry is the same as rotational
2011-11-16T22:10:49  <amstan> but 4 player is different
2011-11-16T22:11:21  <mleise> 4 player ... wasn't that the axis of evil swastika stuff?
2011-11-16T22:12:40  <mleise> in other words, are there actually any official maps, that use 4 player rotational symmetry?
2011-11-16T22:12:48  <amstan> mleise: yeah.. that's the problem
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2011-11-16T22:14:26  <amstan> mleise: hmm, apparently i mislabeled it
2011-11-16T22:14:28  <amstan> lol
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2011-11-16T22:16:35  <mleise> At the moment I just want to finish my path finding algorithm, but I am not really motivated for anything on Ants.
2011-11-16T22:16:47  <amstan> how would you label this map? http://paste.aichallenge.org/xqx7g/
2011-11-16T22:16:58  <amstan> it's not rotational
2011-11-16T22:17:05  <mleise> no it is ...
2011-11-16T22:17:09  <mleise> mirrored
2011-11-16T22:17:53  <amstan> yeah, it's point mirror
2011-11-16T22:18:26  <mleise> I don't think a point mirror exists :D
2011-11-16T22:19:14  <mleise> To me it looks like one horizontal and one vertical mirror
2011-11-16T22:19:36  <nickjohnson> Yes, it has two axes of reflective symmetry
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2011-11-16T22:24:37  <wr> hmmm?
2011-11-16T22:25:04  <wr> so I downloaded the ai how do I get a GUI of the play?
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2011-11-16T22:29:24  <mleise> I think talking about my path finding idea will motivate me to implement it, but I don't want someone else to try it out before I do ^^
2011-11-16T22:30:48  <amstan> if i were to make an irc server, i would have a filter for impacient people
2011-11-16T22:30:55  <mleise> So I rather listen to others talking about their A* or BFS approaches
2011-11-16T22:31:19  <amstan> the first few messages you send(if you're new), they'll be buffered, and only after like 2 minutes(if you haven't left) they'll be transmitted to the channel
2011-11-16T22:31:28  <amstan> that should filter out people
2011-11-16T22:31:36  <aarossig> amstan: no need to redefine irc for this, make an impatience detection algorithm and get a bot to the dirty work lol
2011-11-16T22:31:37  <mleise> amstan: that's cruel, but effective ;)
2011-11-16T22:31:54  <amstan> aarossig: yes, but what could a bot do though?
2011-11-16T22:31:56  <aarossig> amstan: nvm then lol
2011-11-16T22:32:07  <aarossig> amstan: you could have a metachannel
2011-11-16T22:32:16  <amstan> aarossig: by the time the bot gets mad at him because he signed out it's already too late
2011-11-16T22:32:22  <aarossig> amstan: in the words of mcstar.. the realaichallenge
2011-11-16T22:32:43  <aarossig> no.. just have 2 channels
2011-11-16T22:32:51  <aarossig> one for people with answers
2011-11-16T22:32:55  <aarossig> could be any random channel
2011-11-16T22:33:06  <aarossig> and then have a bot that relays the messages between the two
2011-11-16T22:33:15  <aarossig> any messages that come in the random channel are the patient people :D
2011-11-16T22:33:16  <aarossig> lol
2011-11-16T22:33:25  <amstan> sure, but that's more sketchy than modifying an irc server
2011-11-16T22:33:36  <aarossig> amstan: i suppose
2011-11-16T22:33:45  <aarossig> as if the entire idea isn't sketchy lol
2011-11-16T22:33:56  <nickjohnson> I like the idea. It alwas strikes me as bizarre when someone joins and leaves 2 minutes after answering a question
2011-11-16T22:34:15  <aarossig> amstan: awesome http://www.shopenzed.com/unearthed-kauri-boxed-mens-pen-xidp233496.html
2011-11-16T22:34:23  <amstan> nickjohnson: the funny part is that irc is like the absolute fastest to get answers from
2011-11-16T22:34:28  <aarossig> amstan: i feel like your dad would really like that for an xmas gift
2011-11-16T22:34:30  <amstan> nickjohnson: short of searching yourself
2011-11-16T22:35:15  <aarossig> amstan: i agree, but sometimes... if you're struggling for an hour you just need someone to give you a keyword or even say something totally unrelated that helps get you back on track and solve the issue
2011-11-16T22:35:38  <amstan> aarossig: yes, but that's no reason to leave after 2 minutes of silence
2011-11-16T22:35:46  <aarossig> agreed
2011-11-16T22:36:33  <mleise> 38 seconds in the last case
2011-11-16T22:36:57  <aarossig> amstan: i want rDNS
2011-11-16T22:37:15  <amstan> aarossig: huh?
2011-11-16T22:37:33  <aarossig> aarossig: so that my domain resolves for whois and stuff
2011-11-16T22:37:39  <aarossig> amstan* lol
2011-11-16T22:38:12  <amstan> aarossig: what's the connection with people leaving before they get questions answered?
2011-11-16T22:38:32  <aarossig> amstan: nothing at all, that topic seemed like it was rounding completion
2011-11-16T22:40:49  <thestinger> well, I have _extremely_ basic combat now
2011-11-16T22:41:09  <amstan> thestinger: cool, what did you do?
2011-11-16T22:41:41  <thestinger> http://paste.aichallenge.org/mEPnX/
2011-11-16T22:41:56  <thestinger> I just fixed my code for dealing with unmoving enemies
2011-11-16T22:42:04  <thestinger> it's really crappy even for that though
2011-11-16T22:42:46  <thestinger> need to get them to strafe/circle if they aren't going to attack instead of just staying there
2011-11-16T22:43:11  <amstan> thestinger: have your tried mcstar's tool thing for combat simulations?
2011-11-16T22:43:12  <aarossig> thestinger: that looks pretty good so far
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2011-11-16T22:43:48  <thestinger> nope, I just implemented a simulation() function based on the battle resolution page
2011-11-16T22:44:06  <thestinger> so I know which ants/enemies will die (assuming enemies don't move)
2011-11-16T22:44:25  <Scryer> How can I tell which of my hills are still alive? Do I have to have an ant near enough to see them?
2011-11-16T22:44:32  <amstan> Scryer: yes
2011-11-16T22:44:41  <Scryer> Thanks.
2011-11-16T22:44:53  <amstan> Scryer: if not.. you can know for sure if you just had an ant spawn from one
2011-11-16T22:45:07  <thestinger> I rewrote a lot of my bot so that I do all regular movement and end up with a hash table with ants as keys and directions as values
2011-11-16T22:45:12  <thestinger> and then I change it around for combat
2011-11-16T22:45:53  <amstan> i should probably eat something more
2011-11-16T22:45:58  <Scryer> Roger - I thought about keeping track of how much food I've collected compared to how many hills should be spawning. Seems like a nuisance. :)
2011-11-16T22:46:56  <amstan> my cat was very interested in a small chromium window moving across the screen
2011-11-16T22:47:09  <aarossig> amstan: huh?
2011-11-16T22:47:41  <a1k0n> thestinger: hey thats cool
2011-11-16T22:47:41  <avdg> which theme did you use? :p
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2011-11-16T22:55:02  <avdg> gn guys
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2011-11-16T22:56:28  <Rinum> looks like my bot is finally improving... http://ants.fluxid.pl/replay.2103 ... still sucks though lol
2011-11-16T22:57:35  <Scryer> I've had two official games since the start of 16 Nov; just noticed that the last guy I played has had five. How is this determined? I haven't been deactivated in that time.
2011-11-16T22:57:56  <a1k0n> i just got one game with one other person, so i'm still sub #6000 ranked
2011-11-16T22:58:43  <a1k0n> Rinum: haha that is a big pile of ants afraid of each other
2011-11-16T22:59:16  <Rinum> a1k0n: lol and over 1k ants in my hill are too scared to come out
2011-11-16T22:59:22  <a1k0n> hilarious
2011-11-16T23:00:27  <Rinum> and i love how there's a HUGE mass surrounding my 4 ants
2011-11-16T23:00:27  <Rinum> 5 ants* lol
2011-11-16T23:02:09  <Rinum> and for the 1st time, my bot is actually winning games... wow http://ants.fluxid.pl/replay.2174
2011-11-16T23:03:27  <a1k0n> hahah oops.  i'm running bots on fluxid with huge amounts of debug output now
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2011-11-16T23:03:47  <thestinger> a1k0n: I ended up with a 42GB log file like that...
2011-11-16T23:03:53  <Rinum> whoa
2011-11-16T23:04:16  <thestinger> I was writing _many_ distance maps to a log file each turn
2011-11-16T23:04:24  <thestinger> and I left it on overnight
2011-11-16T23:04:36  <Rinum> damn
2011-11-16T23:04:39  <Rinum> 48GB wow lol
2011-11-16T23:04:48  <Rinum> 42* lol
2011-11-16T23:05:13  <Scryer> So nice that big disks are cheap these days. :)
2011-11-16T23:05:21  <Scryer> Learn anything from the trace?
2011-11-16T23:05:22  <amstan> Scryer: not anymore
2011-11-16T23:06:08  <Scryer> Prices went up when I wasn't looking?
2011-11-16T23:12:00  <thestinger> my connection to the TCP server keeps screwing up
2011-11-16T23:12:01  <thestinger> :(
2011-11-16T23:12:42  <amstan> Scryer: yep, thailand floodings
2011-11-16T23:12:49  <amstan> Scryer: 180% increase in hd prices
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2011-11-16T23:14:59  <Rinum> just noticed pguillory added an 'about me'
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2011-11-16T23:15:44  <Scryer> Looks like he's reading Sun Tzu. We should worry.
2011-11-16T23:16:28  <Rinum> lol
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2011-11-16T23:19:28  <Rinum> I guess there actually are ppl with teams http://aichallenge.org/profile.php?user=573
2011-11-16T23:20:11  <amstan> why is their bio half in german when they're from russia?
2011-11-16T23:20:44  <Rinum> study abroad?
2011-11-16T23:21:06  <maysam81> hi
2011-11-16T23:23:24  <mleise> no, they aren't german students in moscow, their grammar is too bad. *g*
2011-11-16T23:23:57  <mleise> maybe they thought waterloo is in germany
2011-11-16T23:24:25  <amstan> mleise: lolwhat?
2011-11-16T23:27:41  <mleise> or one of them is part of a german minority in russia and felt like writing some words in the other language
2011-11-16T23:27:45  <Scryer> You mean they're Belgians?  That would explain a lot. :)
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2011-11-16T23:31:08  <a1k0n> manwe's bot rules
2011-11-16T23:31:13  <a1k0n> http://ants.fluxid.pl/replay.2169
2011-11-16T23:32:36  <Rinum> it is awesome http://ants.fluxid.pl/replay.2193
2011-11-16T23:32:47  <Rinum> though I did a sneak attack on his hill there =P
2011-11-16T23:32:58  <Rinum> but then he retaliated x.x
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2011-11-16T23:34:12  <Cowbandit> how do you debug your bot in java? as in see what values are stored and etc.
2011-11-16T23:34:50  <Rinum> output w/e values to a file
2011-11-16T23:34:56  <mleise> Rinum: that would have been a timeout on the real servers most definitely ^^
2011-11-16T23:35:21  <Rinum> lol
2011-11-16T23:35:33  <Cowbandit> wait so how do you output those values into a file?
2011-11-16T23:35:46  <Cowbandit> because i've just been setting a breakpoint
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2011-11-16T23:35:50  <Cowbandit> and then manually inputting coordinates and stuff
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2011-11-16T23:36:24  <Rinum> open a file for writing
2011-11-16T23:36:38  <Rinum> and write w/e to that file
2011-11-16T23:37:27  <mleise> why not use replay the game in the bot with the debugger?
2011-11-16T23:37:35  <mleise> -use
2011-11-16T23:37:35  <Cowbandit> well the thing is
2011-11-16T23:37:51  <Cowbandit> i'm using bluej
2011-11-16T23:37:54  <Cowbandit> and for some reason
2011-11-16T23:38:06  <Cowbandit> it has like a 75 line maximum terminal window
2011-11-16T23:38:12  <Cowbandit> so i can't paste all the bot input int
2011-11-16T23:38:17  <Cowbandit> in* all at once
2011-11-16T23:39:02  <mleise> ok, then make your bot load the bot input file. (Add it as a command line parameter)
2011-11-16T23:39:22  <Cowbandit> o so how does one do that?
2011-11-16T23:39:33  <Cowbandit> lol sorry i'm a noob
2011-11-16T23:39:36  <mleise> you have the bot input file?
2011-11-16T23:39:40  <Cowbandit> yeah
2011-11-16T23:39:52  <mleise> ok, do you see the main() method?
2011-11-16T23:39:57  <mleise> in your Java bot?
2011-11-16T23:40:02  <Cowbandit> ya
2011-11-16T23:40:32  <mleise> ok the method signature should read something like main(String[] args), right?
2011-11-16T23:40:42  <Cowbandit> yeah it's that one
2011-11-16T23:40:47  <thestinger> still no strafing/encircling yet but I've improved combat a bit http://paste.aichallenge.org/o73GH/ :)
2011-11-16T23:40:53  <Cowbandit> and there's only one line it new MyBot().readSystemInput();
2011-11-16T23:41:17  <mleise> Cowbandit: ok, now check if args.length is != 0
2011-11-16T23:41:39  <thestinger> have them set to take no losses atm, but that's temporary
2011-11-16T23:41:42  <mleise> in that case load the file args[0] and read input from there
2011-11-16T23:41:52  <Cowbandit> oh
2011-11-16T23:42:04  <Cowbandit> so i just name my file args?
2011-11-16T23:42:07  <mleise> it would be best, if you added a MyBot().readFileInput();
2011-11-16T23:42:30  <mleise> new MyBot().readFileInput(args[0]);
2011-11-16T23:42:38  <Cowbandit> wait so how do i specify the file that I want to use?
2011-11-16T23:43:07  <mleise> then when you start the debugger, add "C:\Ants\game_logs\bot0.input" or something like that.
2011-11-16T23:43:32  <mleise> I *hope* BlueJ allows command-line arguments
2011-11-16T23:43:47  <Cowbandit> lol hopefully
2011-11-16T23:43:49  <Cowbandit> thanks for the help
2011-11-16T23:43:55  <Cowbandit> this should save me a lot of time
2011-11-16T23:44:43  <mleise> Since file and terminal input are both InputStreams in Java, you should be able to reuse all that code in the bot class.
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2011-11-16T23:45:08  <Cowbandit> kk i'll give it a try
2011-11-16T23:45:15  <mleise> good luck
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