2012-02-06T00:11:14 *** Areks has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T01:04:04 *** Garf has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T02:06:54 *** Areks has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2012-02-06T02:09:20 *** Palmik has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T02:12:31 *** smiley1983 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2012-02-06T02:13:20 *** smiley1983 has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T02:33:58 *** AlliedEnvy has quit IRC (Read error: Connection timed out) 2012-02-06T02:34:34 *** AlliedEnvy has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T03:10:05 *** Areks has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T03:32:55 *** Harpyon has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T03:37:48 *** Blkt has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T03:38:39 *** UncleVasya has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T03:44:11 *** Harpyon has quit IRC (Quit: Computer has gone to sleep.) 2012-02-06T03:51:10 good morning everyone 2012-02-06T03:53:08 good morning 2012-02-06T03:56:11 *** AlliedEnvy has quit IRC (Read error: Connection timed out) 2012-02-06T03:56:40 *** AlliedEnvy has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T04:25:57 *** smiley1983 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2012-02-06T04:32:23 *** coeus has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T04:36:15 *** mviel has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T04:37:12 *** smiley1983 has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T04:39:18 smiley1983: Hi. Nice to see OCaml starter package for Asteroids ;) 2012-02-06T04:39:27 evenings 2012-02-06T04:39:48 UncleVasya: I fixed the spam, and later told a mispelling of your name :P 2012-02-06T04:41:42 interesting, how you mispelled it? 2012-02-06T04:41:50 Vasia? 2012-02-06T04:42:28 unvle 2012-02-06T04:44:22 *** AlliedEnvy has quit IRC (Read error: Connection timed out) 2012-02-06T04:44:34 I was wondering all the time why seach option on some sites doesn't want to search for Within Templation. And yesterday I found out that the name of that band is Within Temptation. 2012-02-06T04:44:51 *** AlliedEnvy has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T04:45:55 *** Apophis_ has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T04:46:18 *** Apophis has quit IRC (Write error: Connection reset by peer) 2012-02-06T04:58:53 *** Fandekasp has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2012-02-06T05:01:19 *** Fandekasp has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T05:03:27 *** Fandekasp has quit IRC (Client Quit) 2012-02-06T05:03:38 *** Fandekasp has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T05:05:31 *** Areks has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2012-02-06T05:07:01 *** sigh has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T05:08:01 *** ikaros has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T05:25:51 *** Areks has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T05:40:25 *** ikaros has quit IRC (Quit: Ex-Chat) 2012-02-06T05:47:32 *** pairofdice has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T05:53:08 *** thestinger has quit IRC (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6) 2012-02-06T05:56:42 *** thestinger has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T06:18:37 *** Kingpin13 has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T06:19:20 *** smiley1983 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2012-02-06T06:30:44 *** smiley1983 has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T06:35:48 *** coeus has quit IRC (*.net *.split) 2012-02-06T06:35:48 *** antimatroid1 has quit IRC (*.net *.split) 2012-02-06T06:35:48 *** AndrewBC has quit IRC (*.net *.split) 2012-02-06T06:35:55 *** AndrewBC has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T06:37:37 *** coeus has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T06:37:37 *** antimatroid1 has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T06:40:35 *** antimatroidl has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.) 2012-02-06T06:44:19 *** cyphase has quit IRC (Quit: http://www.cyphase.com/) 2012-02-06T06:45:42 more silence than ever 2012-02-06T06:50:03 *** cyphase has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T06:50:13 *** cyphase has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T06:50:50 *** AlliedEnvy has quit IRC (Read error: Connection timed out) 2012-02-06T06:51:27 *** AlliedEnvy has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T06:51:35 http://forums.aichallenge.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2170&start=90#p14107 2012-02-06T06:51:42 wait... Sri Lanka ?!?!??? 2012-02-06T06:57:40 *** mcstar has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T07:06:49 *** mceier has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T07:13:19 whats up? 2012-02-06T07:14:31 mleise: just for fun log in as Frontier and let's see how many messages contestbot has for you. 2012-02-06T07:14:53 *** mleise is now known as Frontier 2012-02-06T07:14:58 none 2012-02-06T07:15:14 @messages? 2012-02-06T07:15:15 Frontier: You have no gotten any error messages recently, so here's a random one just to let you know that we care. 2012-02-06T07:15:15 *** Jak_o_Shadows1 has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2012-02-06T07:15:25 kthx bye 2012-02-06T07:15:27 *** Frontier is now known as mleise 2012-02-06T07:15:53 delt0r: I was surprised about so many Sri Lankan bots in the top 200, that's all 2012-02-06T07:16:41 Thought it was just some island disconnected from the rest of the world :D 2012-02-06T07:16:46 i was surprised delt0r didnt compete 2012-02-06T07:17:08 neither did I, wait ... I fought JavaScript 2012-02-06T07:18:54 * mcstar remembers telling delt0r to rather build his bot than replicating the engine, he would have written a decent bot i that time 2012-02-06T07:20:57 one day I will finish that path finding routine 2012-02-06T07:21:22 XD 2012-02-06T07:21:33 what do you mean, finish it? 2012-02-06T07:22:04 Just write the module that handles path finding to a state where it is usable 2012-02-06T07:22:23 like adding newly dicovered tiles to it, make it update the internal data structure etc. 2012-02-06T07:22:42 mcstar: i had a bot 2012-02-06T07:22:52 but then i needed to still add combat 2012-02-06T07:23:02 did you submit? 2012-02-06T07:23:07 and well my real day job kinda got in the way 2012-02-06T07:23:13 *** alehorst has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T07:23:18 next thing i know... there is already a winner 2012-02-06T07:23:25 haha 2012-02-06T07:23:27 hehe 2012-02-06T07:23:41 *** NightExcessive has quit IRC (Quit: NightExcessive) 2012-02-06T07:23:52 looking at replays i would not have placed in the top 100 without some combat code 2012-02-06T07:24:18 how did yours do? 2012-02-06T07:24:24 180th 2012-02-06T07:24:29 not bad 2012-02-06T07:24:32 well well 2012-02-06T07:25:06 i thought i had a chance to be in the top100 2012-02-06T07:25:08 you know... if i had that path finder done, it could have moved ants in packs 2012-02-06T07:25:09 i was not surprised by the winning bot methodology... was close to mine 2012-02-06T07:25:26 and make ants from everywhere arrive at a time 2012-02-06T07:25:36 my bot was a mess, ill learn from my mistakes 2012-02-06T07:25:47 you can still battle Accoun on tcp 2012-02-06T07:25:49 my goal -had i entered --was the top 100 2012-02-06T07:25:51 lol 2012-02-06T07:25:59 how did Accoun do? 2012-02-06T07:26:04 didnt submit 2012-02-06T07:26:07 did we all cheat him again? 2012-02-06T07:26:13 he doesnt like canadians 2012-02-06T07:26:30 lol, i don't know. he preferred to play on tcp only 2012-02-06T07:26:52 probably because we are all cheating otherwise 2012-02-06T07:27:07 any word on the next comp? 2012-02-06T07:27:25 I was asked to do a visualizer 2012-02-06T07:27:25 they said delt0r will figure it out 2012-02-06T07:27:27 http://aigamedev.com/open/tutorial/symmetry-in-pathfinding/ <-very interesting 2012-02-06T07:27:53 ?? ok i am now confused --what? 2012-02-06T07:28:07 :> 2012-02-06T07:28:36 delt0r: my pathfinder is better than anything existing ... i mean would have been. it fits into CPU L1 cache and is super fast 2012-02-06T07:28:53 pathfinding has little to do with challenge i believe, it was a necessity, but thats all 2012-02-06T07:29:00 So the idea was a space dog fighting games with asteroids 2012-02-06T07:29:08 mleise: My one was finished :D 2012-02-06T07:29:28 mleise: really? 2012-02-06T07:29:32 delt0r: yeah, laught about me now, but some day you will see 2012-02-06T07:29:34 i already have code 2012-02-06T07:29:40 mleise: show us 2012-02-06T07:29:44 what? 2012-02-06T07:29:47 mleise: i am sure you will 2012-02-06T07:29:51 the code 2012-02-06T07:29:56 what code? 2012-02-06T07:30:07 Das Codes 2012-02-06T07:30:09 dem PAthFinder 2012-02-06T07:30:25 Ach! Der Pfadfinder! 2012-02-06T07:30:33 i started a space squad combat thing for the aichallenge last time 2012-02-06T07:30:53 but then everyone got the hots for ants in their pants and i never finished it 2012-02-06T07:31:17 I managed to make it 100% integer and stuff 2012-02-06T07:31:34 so the engine and basic game spec was sorta done 2012-02-06T07:32:16 * delt0r checks the forums 2012-02-06T07:32:16 only i didn't have aseroids... but nebular 2012-02-06T07:32:17 *** smiley1983 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2012-02-06T07:32:38 the idea was that everything was pathable for a low barrier to entry 2012-02-06T07:32:57 but adding things like A* would make a big difference 2012-02-06T07:32:58 mcstar: This is what I have: http://codepad.org/sn3I2DAs 2012-02-06T07:33:06 delt0r: fuck the what? that pathfinder you linked looks ridiculously effective 2012-02-06T07:33:09 *** smiley1983 has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T07:34:29 mleise: why is it soo long? 2012-02-06T07:34:38 Don't reason over my code. I've also started an essay about the path finder 2012-02-06T07:35:10 sure 2012-02-06T07:35:15 It uses several optimizations and needs a sophisticated algorithm to build the data structures 2012-02-06T07:35:21 * mcstar doesnt undestand "reason over" 2012-02-06T07:35:34 try to make sense of it 2012-02-06T07:35:41 why not? 2012-02-06T07:35:59 because it isn't finished and will not tell you the truth 2012-02-06T07:36:01 i didnt want to see it for its syntax highliting 2012-02-06T07:36:31 I thought, maybe you wanted to see, if there was *any* code at all, or I am just telling stories 2012-02-06T07:36:32 what is the alg. that you implemented? 2012-02-06T07:36:46 ? 2012-02-06T07:36:56 something homegrown. 2012-02-06T07:36:57 is it a known one? 2012-02-06T07:37:00 ok 2012-02-06T07:37:09 at least I haven't found it on the net 2012-02-06T07:37:11 where can it pathfind? 2012-02-06T07:37:20 wha kind of grap? 2012-02-06T07:37:21 mcstar: I don't understand your profanity 2012-02-06T07:37:25 it works only on the situation in ant 2012-02-06T07:37:33 mleise: you were dividing up the map into 'rooms' basically, right? I barely remember :) 2012-02-06T07:37:35 so: 4 directions on a grid 2012-02-06T07:37:50 right, rooms or portals 2012-02-06T07:37:58 mleise: so a square lattice, with obstacles 2012-02-06T07:38:24 mcstar: yes, the portals can be anywhere 2012-02-06T07:38:39 delt0r: think nothing of it, i just expressed that i was surpried by it 2012-02-06T07:38:46 they form convex areas without obstacles 2012-02-06T07:38:46 right 2012-02-06T07:39:14 mcstar: it seems like a great idea... need a particular structure however --but one we often have 2012-02-06T07:39:16 that's something you already see implemented though 2012-02-06T07:39:39 * delt0r keeps reading the forums... 2012-02-06T07:39:57 mleise: I see you even taught your ants to use portals :D 2012-02-06T07:40:15 The biggest gain was skipping dead ends and dividing the map into portals to reduce the number of queries 2012-02-06T07:40:58 I have a newfound hatred for C++ now thanks to boost spirit 2012-02-06T07:41:27 It means that a long path consists of maybe 8 segments only and is not laid down in detail yet, only the protals that will be used are known 2012-02-06T07:42:14 by the nature of the ants maps, most areas only have one ore two more portals 2012-02-06T07:42:40 this is different from A* as well, where you mostly have 3 degrees of freedom 2012-02-06T07:43:00 alias std.stdio.stdout.writefln wfln; useful alias 2012-02-06T07:43:05 so the search tree it is both shorter and less spread out 2012-02-06T07:43:22 mcstar: oh yeah, that one ;) 2012-02-06T07:43:46 mleise: do you know about waypoint-maps? 2012-02-06T07:43:53 graphs, sorry 2012-02-06T07:44:16 mcstar: I think so 2012-02-06T07:44:17 anyway, the idea to find a coarse path, and then refine it isnt new 2012-02-06T07:44:48 is that what you do? 2012-02-06T07:45:12 you build up a graps of these portals right? 2012-02-06T07:45:15 -s 2012-02-06T07:45:23 I do that ... and to be honest I see no other way to speed the search up 2012-02-06T07:45:26 can you guarantee optimality? 2012-02-06T07:46:14 mcstar: yes, i build up graphs of portals and can guarantee optimality, by knowing the positions of the portals and calculating the minimum distance from where I am to where I pass the portal 2012-02-06T07:47:11 and dead ends are skipped alltogether, making it especially fast on the maze maps with all the random noise on the walls 2012-02-06T07:48:02 I *really* have to finish that thing. I think it is new and awesome. 2012-02-06T07:48:02 what is the separation condition? 2012-02-06T07:48:12 what is that? 2012-02-06T07:48:33 when you consider some area consisting of 2,3... portals? 2012-02-06T07:48:48 how do you spearate portals 2012-02-06T07:48:55 A* 2012-02-06T07:48:56 lets say you see a dead end 2012-02-06T07:49:13 you have to close that dead end off 2012-02-06T07:49:18 where is the Frontier? 2012-02-06T07:49:24 lol 2012-02-06T07:49:26 (pun intended) 2012-02-06T07:50:03 you can imagine it like moving a huge wedge against the silhouette of an ostacle 2012-02-06T07:50:18 the squares it can't reach are a dead end 2012-02-06T07:51:01 if you move inside there, your path gets longer (unless the target is in the dead end) 2012-02-06T07:51:03 woah, non-silence! 2012-02-06T07:51:15 dont scream 2012-02-06T07:51:21 LOUD NOISES 2012-02-06T07:51:28 *** mcstar has left #aichallenge 2012-02-06T07:51:31 antimatroid1: just some talk about my super duper path finding algorithm 2012-02-06T07:51:41 *** mcstar has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T07:51:44 i shall read up in a sec 2012-02-06T07:51:46 I call it Pfadfinder for now 2012-02-06T07:52:22 have any of you played with the maximum path problem from tron? 2012-02-06T07:52:29 mcstar: anyway, I don't recall in all detail how the dead-end detection was supposed to work. I had to reiterate over that again and again 2012-02-06T07:52:35 Mmm, teenage girl simulator 2012-02-06T07:52:43 emulator? 2012-02-06T07:52:56 pairofdice: you can't be helped :p 2012-02-06T07:53:04 what? 2012-02-06T07:53:15 is this one of pairofdice's random commments? 2012-02-06T07:53:29 That long-ass article looks interesting 2012-02-06T07:54:04 fadfinder 2012-02-06T07:54:28 *** antimatroidl has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T07:54:58 To finish my talk: I finally found that I have to let the portals cut through each other, essentially creating small rectangular areas - some of them with obstacles on the sides/in the corners 2012-02-06T07:56:04 omg, portals never overlap!!!! 2012-02-06T07:56:05 Then when you navigate the portals there are some top secret optimizations that filter some of the options, so you don't end up where you started 2012-02-06T07:56:18 you might create an interdimensional passthrought 2012-02-06T07:56:26 where matter converts to antimatter 2012-02-06T07:56:33 and eats up the known universe! 2012-02-06T07:56:34 uhm 2012-02-06T07:56:36 * UncleVasya is saved mleise's code. In case you'll be selling your closed source pathfinding framework for 500$ in future. 2012-02-06T07:56:50 *** AlliedEnvy has quit IRC (Read error: Connection timed out) 2012-02-06T07:56:56 UncleVasya: that code you can have. it is a ruin 2012-02-06T07:57:09 haha 2012-02-06T07:57:09 [s] is [/s] 2012-02-06T07:57:16 sell stuff? 2012-02-06T07:57:21 but then less people will use it 2012-02-06T07:57:28 mleise is our invited speaker for tonite, please hear him out! 2012-02-06T07:57:30 mostly some 'scanner' sweep algorithm to build portals from an already known map 2012-02-06T07:57:31 *** AlliedEnvy has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T07:57:55 mcstar: open your window blinds, it is mid-day 2012-02-06T07:58:09 right 2012-02-06T07:58:23 it is kind of dark 2012-02-06T08:02:48 Shall I upload a sample picture of some portals? 2012-02-06T08:03:22 just dont forget to mark them as CreativeCommons 2012-02-06T08:03:38 oh right... one moment 2012-02-06T08:05:36 unbelievable 2012-02-06T08:05:51 my numerical libraries all die on my 2012-02-06T08:06:28 trilinos, dolfin/epetra 2012-02-06T08:06:50 http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/6691/pathfinder.png 2012-02-06T08:07:15 XD 2012-02-06T08:07:23 so 2012-02-06T08:07:28 explanations? 2012-02-06T08:07:43 black is land right? 2012-02-06T08:07:48 didn't i give all the explanations already? 2012-02-06T08:07:59 black is wa... yes land -.- 2012-02-06T08:08:36 as you can see all the small compartments are convex (in manhatten metric) 2012-02-06T08:09:05 so you can never be stuck with you ant, moving from one portal to the next! 2012-02-06T08:09:39 that's what makes this part both fast and we know the cost 2012-02-06T08:10:25 So what are the chances it will be Asteroids next? 2012-02-06T08:11:29 I don't know delt0r. I said I wouldn't do the visualizer and that's it. Is there no forum thread with ideas for the next game? 2012-02-06T08:13:27 The portals can be described in three bytes, so the whole path finding data should fit into CPU L1 cache, which should be way faster than allocating little nodes and connecting them through pointers 2012-02-06T08:14:12 Anyway I'm just keeping the channel busy 2012-02-06T08:14:33 i guess the cache size is constant on most machines... 2012-02-06T08:16:15 mcstar: 64KB at least I'd say 2012-02-06T08:16:34 that is what I have in my notebook 2012-02-06T08:16:58 i mean there will be a problem size that wont fit into the cash 2012-02-06T08:17:11 anyway, you dont really have control of the cache 2012-02-06T08:18:23 when you are ready, ill be interested in a speed comparison against some fast bfs implementation 2012-02-06T08:18:43 mcstar: a 256x256 map will most likely fit into the cache. I just count on that. 2012-02-06T08:19:19 I had some rough numbers for portals on some maps 2012-02-06T08:19:45 but it is difficult to update the map with each discovered square 2012-02-06T08:20:28 portals need to be created/removed, the "slices" where portals cut each other need to be updated, dead ends added... 2012-02-06T08:21:13 you know how long the code already is 2012-02-06T08:21:21 *** Fandekasp has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2012-02-06T08:21:30 I must find a simpler method 2012-02-06T08:23:03 just use a more conscise language 2012-02-06T08:23:10 preferably a functional one 2012-02-06T08:23:55 like OCaml! 2012-02-06T08:24:36 mcstar: that is the problem: I don't speak functional 2012-02-06T08:24:49 I used to learn Delphi, Java, Basic and so on 2012-02-06T08:25:13 mleise: well i would do a java one... but a js one? well i haven't touched js since like 2003 or so 2012-02-06T08:25:15 Me no speak functional 2012-02-06T08:25:28 mleise: if you are a optimizing speed freak, probably imperative languages will fit you better 2012-02-06T08:25:28 It is not like D doesn't support functional style, but I don't know how to make use of it 2012-02-06T08:25:57 delt0r: who said JS? 2012-02-06T08:26:36 well the last one was in JS and it worked pretty well IMO 2012-02-06T08:26:50 applets are crap 2012-02-06T08:26:52 *** AlliedEnvy has quit IRC (Read error: Connection timed out) 2012-02-06T08:27:16 folks don't like downloading stuff so much 2012-02-06T08:27:30 im torrenting as we speak 2012-02-06T08:27:35 i love downloading 2012-02-06T08:27:38 *** AlliedEnvy has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T08:27:39 lol 2012-02-06T08:27:52 delt0r: you mean the visualizer, right? 2012-02-06T08:27:56 mleise: yea 2012-02-06T08:28:25 you can try some language that converts to JS 2012-02-06T08:28:33 fark that 2012-02-06T08:28:53 if i am going to do a js one... i will do a js one 2012-02-06T08:29:08 what? 2012-02-06T08:29:09 otherwise i just make it someone elses problem 2012-02-06T08:29:18 does that mean you will write the asteroids visualizer? 2012-02-06T08:29:35 do a java one... let the resident node.js guru do the rest 2012-02-06T08:29:59 mcstar: i already have 90% of an enegine that would work well 2012-02-06T08:30:03 I saw Smiley do something in his fork. 2012-02-06T08:30:12 amstan already didd some pyqt mock-ups 2012-02-06T08:30:19 so add a visualliser with sexey sexy graphics... 2012-02-06T08:30:19 Last commit was made 5 days ago. 2012-02-06T08:30:29 yea... 2012-02-06T08:30:50 i just would like a better game idea though 2012-02-06T08:30:53 but its just that... from the thread i get the idea that its not meant to become the final version... 2012-02-06T08:31:16 unless of course it does become the production version... these things do tend to happen 2012-02-06T08:31:31 mcstar: for example? 2012-02-06T08:31:45 my orginal idea was "space squad" 2012-02-06T08:31:46 yes 2012-02-06T08:31:53 i dont have any ideas 2012-02-06T08:31:53 in a nebular 2012-02-06T08:32:16 mcstar: what kind of game would do it for you? 2012-02-06T08:32:22 *** Garf has quit IRC (Quit: Make a new plan, Stan!) 2012-02-06T08:32:23 it would probably be best if i dont participate in the next challenge 2012-02-06T08:32:28 lol 2012-02-06T08:32:31 why is that? 2012-02-06T08:32:38 we like you :D 2012-02-06T08:32:42 *** Garf has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T08:32:50 there are many more important things i need to do 2012-02-06T08:32:57 me too 2012-02-06T08:33:09 and aichallenge felt sort of like an excuse from them 2012-02-06T08:33:18 i was going to solve world hunger... but then i decided to go skiing instead :/ 2012-02-06T08:33:26 :D 2012-02-06T08:33:42 im in for solving world energy crisis 2012-02-06T08:33:51 next up... fusion... Always wanted to build a fusion reactor 2012-02-06T08:33:57 ah right 2012-02-06T08:34:15 magnetohydrodynamics, love at first sight 2012-02-06T08:34:49 even have thought about switching to plasma physics for a day job 2012-02-06T08:34:49 oh... its not a crisis ... yet 2012-02-06T08:35:08 well, i guess you know about Peak Oil theory 2012-02-06T08:35:36 of course... but the numbers don't lie... we are going to limp along for another 80-100 years yet... 2012-02-06T08:36:16 as much as everyone what to cut carbon emissions... no one want to do it at the expense of life style.. 2012-02-06T08:36:29 shale oil, coal etc... will be burnt... 2012-02-06T08:36:43 and even converted to oil as required... 2012-02-06T08:37:11 but demand grows exponentially->gives stability to economy->but soon we cant fulfill deman->demand slowly shrinks->economy becomes more irregular and extremal->society colapses 2012-02-06T08:37:12 its not the next 100 years that is the real problem... its the 100 years after than 2012-02-06T08:37:13 that 2012-02-06T08:38:10 demands don't in fact grow exponentially... for example energy use in the western world is not going up... that what peak whatever is about... 2012-02-06T08:38:24 economist may say otherwise of course 2012-02-06T08:38:30 omg omg how cute http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2012/02/funny-pictures-gif-my-deerest1.gif 2012-02-06T08:38:38 it is, wordlwide 2012-02-06T08:39:32 but no one expects the population to that much larger... and once the 3rd world gets the same life style ... usage levels out... as it has done in the west 2012-02-06T08:39:57 *** Fandekasp has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T08:39:58 the EU is at about 10kW per person... the US at 20kW 2012-02-06T08:40:10 china IIRC is something like 1kW 2012-02-06T08:40:22 and Africa is half that 2012-02-06T08:40:52 so yea... a bit... but a long way from an exp curve... long term... 2012-02-06T08:41:15 Not making this up... others do hold the same option. Of course only time will tell 2012-02-06T08:41:19 well not really 2012-02-06T08:41:28 sweet dystopian future 2012-02-06T08:41:29 we can't have exp grown... no matter what 2012-02-06T08:41:37 even fusion won't give us that 2012-02-06T08:41:42 anyway, seeing what happened to economy from 2008, it is pretty obvious that the most sensitive assets and the whole market is in the hands of monkeys 2012-02-06T08:41:45 But atleast there will be filtered water 2012-02-06T08:41:59 so any considerable change can mean chatastrophy 2012-02-06T08:42:27 mcstar: that comforts me... given that even with monkeys at the helm, things kinda work mostly... is good news :D 2012-02-06T08:42:47 delt0r: ofc we cant have exponential growth, but we had/have it 2012-02-06T08:42:54 it will stop 2012-02-06T08:43:02 as did population growth 2012-02-06T08:43:09 but, can you guarantee that it will be peaceful? 2012-02-06T08:43:17 who can... 2012-02-06T08:43:34 but i don't think the sky is falling any more now than any other time 2012-02-06T08:43:41 so what im saying, is that we will experience great changes much sooner than 100 years from now 2012-02-06T08:43:56 we seem to love the idea of living in "interesting times" no matter what the time 2012-02-06T08:44:17 i never lived in another time, so i cant say 2012-02-06T08:44:25 but this is itneresting times 2012-02-06T08:44:31 mcstar: I still strongly disagree with that... we will see the start of big changes... the next 100 years will be the real test 2012-02-06T08:45:09 delt0r: ok, as a side-project, will you help me communicating with dolphins? 2012-02-06T08:45:13 it is always interesting times... we are always on the brink, we must always repent of some "sin" or else 2012-02-06T08:45:32 frak the dolphins... 2012-02-06T08:45:35 :/ 2012-02-06T08:45:37 oh 2012-02-06T08:45:42 i like dolphins 2012-02-06T08:45:54 i would like to prove that they are as intelligent as humans 2012-02-06T08:46:14 mcstar: well i work with a group that studies launage devoplemt in animals and humans 2012-02-06T08:46:22 haha 2012-02-06T08:46:25 im not surpised 2012-02-06T08:46:34 mcstar: its easy to prove they are not... sorry... 2012-02-06T08:46:51 can you cite one profession that you werent involved in? 2012-02-06T08:47:17 we really stand apart... 2012-02-06T08:47:17 no animal gets close to humans... its interesting to ask why... 2012-02-06T08:47:25 why? 2012-02-06T08:47:35 i mean elaborate on the first part 2012-02-06T08:47:43 what makes us so different ... 2012-02-06T08:47:46 how do you prove they are inferior? 2012-02-06T08:47:54 not inferior 2012-02-06T08:48:37 less intelligent... ie lack some reasoning and stuff.. some classes of problems that we all solve easily they can't 2012-02-06T08:49:04 ironically crows do better at only those tasks. 2012-02-06T08:49:23 crows are really clever 2012-02-06T08:49:29 are those visual probelms? 2012-02-06T08:49:29 I don't remeber we last had the combined meeting in dec 2012-02-06T08:50:01 if crows had arms, they would own us 2012-02-06T08:50:05 dolphin brains are reallu huge 2012-02-06T08:50:05 mcstar: i don't recall now... just they are not as smart as popular option holds out... 2012-02-06T08:50:16 also dophines are very mean... 2012-02-06T08:50:27 rape is common for example... 2012-02-06T08:50:46 oh, i read about homosexuality among animals 2012-02-06T08:50:51 thanks, wiki 2012-02-06T08:50:54 lol 2012-02-06T08:51:20 yea most mammals exhibit it to some extend 2012-02-06T08:51:29 as well as masturbation... 2012-02-06T08:51:37 is this a family channel ? 2012-02-06T08:51:37 damn monkeys 2012-02-06T08:51:53 they are just bored probably... 2012-02-06T08:52:10 better than thowing poop 2012-02-06T08:52:14 haha 2012-02-06T08:52:30 thats funny 2012-02-06T08:52:56 so dolphins rape each other? 2012-02-06T08:53:02 thats sort of weird 2012-02-06T08:53:08 how does that work? 2012-02-06T08:53:13 since they dont have arms and such 2012-02-06T08:53:15 they can hardly grap each other 2012-02-06T08:53:18 yes 2012-02-06T08:53:22 grab 2012-02-06T08:53:29 grapling hook 2012-02-06T08:53:34 grap 2012-02-06T08:54:13 the male isolates the female and starve her until submission... 2012-02-06T08:54:16 I googled it, first hit was a furry encyclopedia :\ 2012-02-06T08:54:16 grapple 2012-02-06T08:54:20 not grap 2012-02-06T08:54:36 omg they gang rape 2012-02-06T08:54:52 what? "dolphin rape"? 2012-02-06T08:54:57 if they are as smart as us... i don't want to talk to em 2012-02-06T08:55:05 Dolphins try to rape people?? - Yahoo! Answers 2012-02-06T08:55:25 of course there is more to language than intelligence. 2012-02-06T08:55:29 humans are the most cruel animals ever 2012-02-06T08:55:41 mcstar: not even close 2012-02-06T08:55:47 not even remotely... 2012-02-06T08:55:51 what are you talking about? 2012-02-06T08:55:55 go to some bio classes 2012-02-06T08:56:07 i wont... 2012-02-06T08:56:12 so just tell me 2012-02-06T08:56:45 sure you can find *isolated* examples... of typical behavour in other animals... 2012-02-06T08:57:22 ie tigers, if they are a bit hungry ... will eat there own cubs.. so do pigs. 2012-02-06T08:57:30 mcstar: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/06/22/science/22chimp.html 2012-02-06T08:57:30 their 2012-02-06T08:58:06 ...net is slow today forme.... 2012-02-06T08:58:24 cub==offspring? 2012-02-06T08:58:44 the reason we have 7 Billon of us here is that for the most part we get along really well 2012-02-06T08:58:59 sure we could do better 2012-02-06T08:59:03 Ants get along really good too 2012-02-06T08:59:15 i dont think we get along well 2012-02-06T08:59:47 but that is not the same as worst 2012-02-06T08:59:49 So far i don't think we can even demonstrate empathy in any other animal. 2012-02-06T08:59:50 No one has tried to kill or rob me yet 2012-02-06T09:00:20 i think humans can suppress emotions with logic 2012-02-06T09:00:37 so we are able to controll ourselfes better than animals 2012-02-06T09:00:41 *** AlliedEnvy has quit IRC (Read error: Connection timed out) 2012-02-06T09:00:52 and remember there are laws 2012-02-06T09:01:01 and feel empathy... 2012-02-06T09:01:08 *** AlliedEnvy has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T09:01:11 before there werent any, i think tribes would engage in wars more often 2012-02-06T09:01:16 even families... 2012-02-06T09:01:56 delt0r: what about elephants remaining around a family member that died? 2012-02-06T09:02:18 *** amstan has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T09:02:18 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o amstan 2012-02-06T09:02:30 laws schmaws 2012-02-06T09:02:36 mleise: crows do something similar too 2012-02-06T09:02:51 as do cows... 2012-02-06T09:03:00 retaliation, the thinking about consequences, thinking about the future, is a very strong de-motivation for killing and all bad things 2012-02-06T09:03:23 but that is not nessicallry empathy... don't recall how they decide however... 2012-02-06T09:04:03 yeah empathy is feeling with someone who is still alive 2012-02-06T09:04:05 elephants probably get the closest... but then they kick out members all the time and leave them to die... often enough 2012-02-06T09:04:58 mcstar: i think understand someone elses pain is also a strong demotivator 2012-02-06T09:05:15 understanding... shesh i suck at this 2012-02-06T09:05:30 i think that depends more on the individual 2012-02-06T09:05:32 is that empathy or is that logical reflecting? 2012-02-06T09:06:11 sure a crow can steal from another crows food cache and watch out that noone is looking while hiding its own food 2012-02-06T09:06:15 empathy IIRC is "feeling" or the ability to feel someone else pain or emotional state. 2012-02-06T09:06:41 define feel 2012-02-06T09:06:47 hard to do... 2012-02-06T09:07:08 go to the biochemical level 2012-02-06T09:07:27 i guess in practice its if the animal can learn about things from watching others make painful mistakes. 2012-02-06T09:07:49 i mean knowing, that you might get killed in retaliation of having killed someone is a better demotivation, than just imagining the emotional pain of the family members' of the victim 2012-02-06T09:07:53 for example a dog watching another dog get the smackdown off an electric fence learns nothing 2012-02-06T09:08:14 really? stupid dog 2012-02-06T09:08:36 i dont like dogs 2012-02-06T09:08:41 they bark too much 2012-02-06T09:08:45 mcstar: punishment has long been shown to be ineffective for deterring crime. Harsher prison terms etc don't work 2012-02-06T09:08:50 so if *that* was empathy, then crows do have it 2012-02-06T09:08:51 lol 2012-02-06T09:09:07 and i am in a office right now with a dog that won't shut up 2012-02-06T09:09:14 *** antimatroidl has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.) 2012-02-06T09:09:22 what? on the office? with a dog? 2012-02-06T09:09:25 mleise: Do they learn off each other? 2012-02-06T09:09:25 in* 2012-02-06T09:09:25 yea 2012-02-06T09:09:33 stupid office 2012-02-06T09:09:44 Yeah, lock criminals together with other criminals. That will teach em! 2012-02-06T09:09:57 delt0r: I'm sure. Some corvids produce tools as well. That has to be passed on somehow 2012-02-06T09:10:41 mleise: spacial reasoning is crows has challenged how we measure intelligence in other animals. 2012-02-06T09:11:12 its not just tool use. its complicated tool use... the most advanced outside humans as far as we know 2012-02-06T09:11:20 ie hooks 2012-02-06T09:11:23 i know 2012-02-06T09:11:28 so i still dont see why cant dolphins be as intelligent as us, with that huge brains of their 2012-02-06T09:11:35 lol 2012-02-06T09:11:54 they have a sonar in there you know? 2012-02-06T09:11:59 yes 2012-02-06T09:12:02 So do bats 2012-02-06T09:12:22 thats why their hearing is much more sophisticated than ours, and their sight 2012-02-06T09:12:33 well i guess we just don't know yet.. but like i said. It easy to come up with things that even retarded humans have no problem with... some animals could do one or two of the test... only we can do all 2012-02-06T09:12:44 can you tell me 100% sure, that they dont actually speak a language? 2012-02-06T09:13:09 delt0r: did you by any chance read Left in the Dark? 2012-02-06T09:13:12 the consensus is that they don't .... 2012-02-06T09:13:17 by anthony wright 2012-02-06T09:13:20 nope 2012-02-06T09:13:29 look it up 2012-02-06T09:13:40 it was a nice book with some good ideas 2012-02-06T09:13:45 not dolphin related 2012-02-06T09:13:50 only human 2012-02-06T09:14:05 haha, Agent Brown: Only Human.. 2012-02-06T09:14:08 social organization in dolphins does not suggest advance communications. 2012-02-06T09:14:11 Trinity: Dodge this! 2012-02-06T09:14:13 booom 2012-02-06T09:14:20 lol 2012-02-06T09:14:23 great line 2012-02-06T09:15:40 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TwIXhzGUWwk 2012-02-06T09:15:40 Of course i should say that we don't really measure intelligence in humans very well either. IQ test are BS 2012-02-06T09:16:19 hah, i just got back my somnographic test results 2012-02-06T09:16:51 *** sigh has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2012-02-06T09:17:09 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggFKLxAQBbc 2012-02-06T09:17:28 Agents Thomson, Jackson and Johnson< 2012-02-06T09:17:31 ? 2012-02-06T09:19:23 i dont have sleep apnoe 2012-02-06T09:19:38 but the test night was horrible 2012-02-06T09:19:54 i had to sleep on a short bed, with the intrument on my chest 2012-02-06T09:20:09 why? 2012-02-06T09:20:19 ask them 2012-02-06T09:21:01 they should really buy a comfortable bed 2012-02-06T09:22:03 lol 2012-02-06T09:22:06 now i have proof of my daytime sleepiness 2012-02-06T09:34:45 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQo8Csj0k_c&feature=related 2012-02-06T09:34:59 Will you take the red or the blue pill? - I take ... the RING 2012-02-06T09:37:14 *** Areks has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2012-02-06T09:38:12 mleise: lol 2012-02-06T09:39:42 *** AlliedEnvy has quit IRC (Read error: Connection timed out) 2012-02-06T09:40:13 *** AlliedEnvy has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T09:40:48 omg 2012-02-06T09:41:03 why would people upload fake avatar trailers? 2012-02-06T09:42:37 That's fake, how can you tell? 2012-02-06T09:42:45 circling the swimmer as one of the group grabbed them with their penis and dragged them under 2012-02-06T09:43:16 pairofdice: what mleise linked in was sort of funny in a small way, but im talking about the others on the sidebar 2012-02-06T09:43:19 all fake 2012-02-06T09:43:24 avatar 2 trailers 2012-02-06T09:43:43 mcstar: what? like so? http://emtoast.com/wp-content/uploads/daolphin-caught-raping.jpg 2012-02-06T09:44:05 obviously thats not the real picture 2012-02-06T09:44:06 oh 2012-02-06T09:44:12 but from the same article 2012-02-06T09:48:02 haha 2012-02-06T09:48:22 search for "prehensile penis" 2012-02-06T09:48:52 why would somebody draw a manga-style picture of the action? 2012-02-06T09:51:35 i think those dolphins figure out that we are killing them, and they simple take revenge 2012-02-06T09:51:40 d* 2012-02-06T09:52:29 all in all, my mind is seriously blown by this news, if it is true 2012-02-06T09:55:00 *** thestinger has quit IRC (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.6) 2012-02-06T10:00:13 *** coeus has quit IRC (Quit: Verlassend) 2012-02-06T10:00:50 *** UncleVasya has quit IRC () 2012-02-06T10:05:09 mcstar: I could probably find the references to the orginal papers if you really wanted 2012-02-06T10:05:31 just give your word that this is not fiction 2012-02-06T10:09:16 I trust my Colleges 2012-02-06T10:14:39 delt0r: IQ tests have some relevence imo 2012-02-06T10:14:49 mcstar: you however should never shy away from skepticism.. too many take too much on faith of "experts" 2012-02-06T10:15:00 but me.. meh... its just a dolphin.. 2012-02-06T10:15:08 well at least on the stupid side lol 2012-02-06T10:16:10 i like the cambridge brain study exercises 2012-02-06T10:16:21 http://www.cambridgebrainsciences.com/ 2012-02-06T10:16:55 they arent the typical IQ test, and you can repeat them 2012-02-06T10:17:05 and now they have "high-scores" 2012-02-06T10:17:12 rwest: The last iq test i did was all english gramma... 2012-02-06T10:17:20 the one before was all math 2012-02-06T10:17:24 that is not "iq" 2012-02-06T10:17:34 its stuff you can learn to be good at 2012-02-06T10:17:50 delt0r: that depends 2012-02-06T10:18:02 but most are a heavy mix if they are ones from a psychiatrist 2012-02-06T10:18:03 some tests i have got like 105 others 150 2012-02-06T10:18:15 only ever for US companies... 2012-02-06T10:18:27 I have done 2 2012-02-06T10:18:33 the rest of the world doesn't care 2012-02-06T10:18:38 both by shrinks heh 2012-02-06T10:18:51 so how much? 2012-02-06T10:18:53 and they were the same result and completely different tests 2012-02-06T10:19:17 they are designed in a way so that you do not need prior knowledge 2012-02-06T10:19:22 they give you an example 2012-02-06T10:19:36 and then give you basic problems using that working up to harder ones 2012-02-06T10:19:38 also they claim things that can't work statistically 2012-02-06T10:19:42 and it' 2012-02-06T10:19:45 s times 2012-02-06T10:19:49 timed 2012-02-06T10:19:55 to see how fast you learn 2012-02-06T10:20:08 since each problem builds off the previous in concepts 2012-02-06T10:20:09 you can't claim a standard deviation of 3 if the question don't have that kind of resoultion. 2012-02-06T10:20:31 I have never taken an IQ test with grammar 2012-02-06T10:21:05 there is very little to back them up... in fact most data shows they don't work as intended. 2012-02-06T10:21:20 as in you can get better at iq tests... 2012-02-06T10:21:23 for example 2012-02-06T10:21:33 they must be accurate, the average people always scores 100 2012-02-06T10:21:39 lol 2012-02-06T10:21:42 lol 2012-02-06T10:21:48 olo 2012-02-06T10:21:50 * mcstar jokes 2012-02-06T10:21:58 you know i never meet Mr Average? 2012-02-06T10:22:23 i was afraid you wont get my joke.. 2012-02-06T10:23:09 But can I return it? 2012-02-06T10:23:24 I didn't order this 2012-02-06T10:23:25 sure 2012-02-06T10:23:35 what'd you like instead? 2012-02-06T10:23:52 *** Fandekasp has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2012-02-06T10:23:57 *** dorisabayon has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T10:23:58 maybe some diced dolphin penis meat 2012-02-06T10:24:29 Exoskeleton for starters 2012-02-06T10:28:07 anyway... what are the chances of a different suggestion for the next game making it? 2012-02-06T10:28:23 *** AlliedEnvy has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2012-02-06T10:28:55 10-200 i'd say 2012-02-06T10:29:09 no, thats too much 2012-02-06T10:29:13 10-100 2012-02-06T10:29:23 smart mouth 2012-02-06T10:29:47 what i "feel" is that its not decided at all 2012-02-06T10:30:16 you have to campaign with your idea probably 2012-02-06T10:30:25 gather supporters 2012-02-06T10:30:26 well once one idea gets going a bit in the forums, other topics just don't get a sideways look 2012-02-06T10:30:29 put up a vota.. 2012-02-06T10:30:31 e 2012-02-06T10:33:58 i might get stoned here, saying this, but since this is an AI challenge, i wouldnt be disappointed to see somethign more ai related for the next challenge 2012-02-06T10:34:17 where you actually have to use some state-of-the-art-ish ai technique 2012-02-06T10:34:31 you mean like something abstract and so boring that no one enters? :D 2012-02-06T10:34:37 pfff 2012-02-06T10:34:41 boring for some 2012-02-06T10:34:49 and what is a state of the art AI? 2012-02-06T10:35:06 i am sure it isnt pathfinding 2012-02-06T10:35:12 or game-tree search 2012-02-06T10:35:20 so what is it? 2012-02-06T10:35:33 im not an expert 2012-02-06T10:35:41 since heuristic is what gets used for the rest 2012-02-06T10:35:41 Natural language processing, robotics? 2012-02-06T10:35:47 *** dorisabayon is now known as Fandekasp 2012-02-06T10:35:49 but these machine learnign things and probabilistic modeling stuff sounds interesting 2012-02-06T10:36:20 Natural language processing would be inaccessible to many... just the databases that are needed 2012-02-06T10:36:47 robotics... well yes and know.. if its abstracted enough from just the basic physical control problem 2012-02-06T10:36:51 but to do what? 2012-02-06T10:37:07 Indeed 2012-02-06T10:37:15 the problem is that it perhaps wouldnt fit into 2 months 2012-02-06T10:37:23 This is supposed to be fun and accessible, no? 2012-02-06T10:37:24 or 20 years 2012-02-06T10:37:39 considering thats how long the experts have been working on these problems 2012-02-06T10:37:58 ok, but am i the only one thinking this isnt really ai? 2012-02-06T10:38:00 pairofdice: yes... fun and accessible are general requirements 2012-02-06T10:38:11 mcstar: not really... 2012-02-06T10:38:29 but i can't see how working on a very open game problem is *not* ai... 2012-02-06T10:38:40 since A* hardly won you the ants game 2012-02-06T10:39:01 in fact it was hardly even a start 2012-02-06T10:40:02 I mean for something complicated but accessible some kind of cut down RTS would be an interesting AI problem 2012-02-06T10:40:16 which means almost all high level stuff is heuristics... 2012-02-06T10:40:52 mcstar: perhaps you want to go straight to strong AI? 2012-02-06T10:41:04 uh oh 2012-02-06T10:41:07 thats is not feasible 2012-02-06T10:41:12 first to demonstrate self awareness wins! 2012-02-06T10:41:13 -s 2012-02-06T10:42:54 mcstar: so what kind of problem do you consider true AI? 2012-02-06T10:43:17 Choosing good politicians 2012-02-06T10:43:45 that is not AI, it is a exercise in futility. 2012-02-06T10:44:13 the set good intersect politician is empty 2012-02-06T10:44:21 i have no idea what id like to see specifically 2012-02-06T10:44:39 i want something more theoretically challenging 2012-02-06T10:44:41 mcstar: generally? tring to get an idea of what you really mean here 2012-02-06T10:44:46 but that wouldnt fit the time frame 2012-02-06T10:44:53 well get rid of the politicians entirely, let the AI run the government 2012-02-06T10:45:05 what could go rong? 2012-02-06T10:45:09 i mean ants is theoretically fairly intractable! 2012-02-06T10:45:46 so? 2012-02-06T10:45:54 pairofdice: AR in his latest book, Blue Remembered Earth has something like that... called the mechanism. 2012-02-06T10:46:03 if you mean theoretical==exact 2012-02-06T10:46:22 mcstar: so what do you mean by theoretical... since they are all very challenging in theory 2012-02-06T10:47:00 theoretical=you can actually derive some results, dont have to rely on gut feeling, can predict something at all 2012-02-06T10:47:10 ahh i c 2012-02-06T10:47:33 of course some don't like those kind of problem for the same reason you like em... 2012-02-06T10:47:52 personally i dont' care too much if the problem itself is interesting 2012-02-06T10:48:34 I would love the next challenge to be another rts 2012-02-06T10:49:16 rwest: think quite a few of us would... but at the same time... it needs to be different from the previous challenge 2012-02-06T10:49:28 also it needs to be a simple RTS 2012-02-06T10:49:45 it should be starcraft 2012-02-06T10:49:46 gogo 2012-02-06T10:49:52 too complicated 2012-02-06T10:49:56 but there are specifically rts challenges around... 2012-02-06T10:50:01 and there are already comps for it 2012-02-06T10:50:01 not really 2012-02-06T10:50:22 you could have something with the complications of sc 2012-02-06T10:50:30 but the data provided to the bot would be greater 2012-02-06T10:50:45 well there is the MIT comp for SC already... just enter that 2012-02-06T10:51:20 i wouldn't mind some more abstract type of game. like some board games 2012-02-06T10:51:30 most board games would not work 2012-02-06T10:51:40 but then i am aways partical to a space shooter 2012-02-06T10:52:07 in fact, I can't think of many board games that would work 2012-02-06T10:52:18 other than like the RP ones 2012-02-06T10:52:26 rwest: not true... most can be easily adapted to simultaneous turns... 2012-02-06T10:52:36 well not the turns problem 2012-02-06T10:52:53 and would work... of course many already have ai comps out there... so there is no point 2012-02-06T10:53:02 actually siumultaneous turns would solve a lot of issues most games have 2012-02-06T10:54:16 There is also the possibility of single player games... where you just try and get the best score... 2012-02-06T10:54:26 I want super puzzle fighter! 2012-02-06T10:54:30 or dr mario 2012-02-06T10:54:31 lol 2012-02-06T10:55:29 but it does need to be interesting to watch... 2012-02-06T10:55:44 those 2 would be 2012-02-06T10:55:45 this is a general requirement by the higher powers 2012-02-06T10:56:45 How far would a strong AI get in "I want to be the guy" before succumbing to tears and curling into a ball 2012-02-06T10:57:19 strong ai does not imply emotions. :/ 2012-02-06T10:57:52 but the desire to wipe out its creators! 2012-02-06T10:58:20 I like the idea of hidden information 2012-02-06T10:58:31 stratego is great 2012-02-06T10:59:26 from star trek? 2012-02-06T10:59:37 the board game 2012-02-06T11:00:17 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stratego 2012-02-06T11:01:25 a board game is not appealing graphically at all 2012-02-06T11:01:36 you don't think? 2012-02-06T11:01:36 if anything, graphics makes in more un-understandable 2012-02-06T11:01:47 stratego has awesome lakes 2012-02-06T11:02:11 all in all a board game is not a bad idea, im not against it 2012-02-06T11:02:12 stratego would be good 2012-02-06T11:02:20 but only if we are given both parts of the moves 2012-02-06T11:02:24 probably wouldbe better than some asteroids game 2012-02-06T11:02:26 as in starting and end position 2012-02-06T11:03:09 also it would be simultaneous moves... well that is what i would want 2012-02-06T11:03:29 to avoid copyright it would be slightly more abstract. 2012-02-06T11:03:29 ewww 2012-02-06T11:03:49 you can straight copy the whole thing 2012-02-06T11:03:54 just can't use the same wording 2012-02-06T11:04:17 look how many monopoly clones there are 2012-02-06T11:04:26 or risk 2012-02-06T11:04:53 no you can't... you can copy the game play... but if you call everything the same thing, then there is substantial coping... and we would need lawyers which is not worth it 2012-02-06T11:05:06 delt0r: "change the wording" 2012-02-06T11:05:12 I include names in that 2012-02-06T11:05:13 not enough 2012-02-06T11:05:20 if a marshal is a marshal... 2012-02-06T11:05:25 look at Lux Deluxe 2012-02-06T11:05:41 straight risk clone 2012-02-06T11:05:49 so it needs to be a super orc or something... aka the monopoly clones don't have a mayfair street 2012-02-06T11:06:04 its just cheaper than dealing with lawyers... even if you would win 2012-02-06T11:06:05 Lux has the original map 2012-02-06T11:06:51 that would be easy to take to court and win... copying the orginal map is a clear copyright thing... 2012-02-06T11:07:07 at least in the west 2012-02-06T11:07:28 well it's redone 2012-02-06T11:07:35 but nothing is changed but the graphic 2012-02-06T11:07:37 either way... its not something they/we would bother with 2012-02-06T11:07:53 I think something totally new is best though 2012-02-06T11:07:54 just not worth it 2012-02-06T11:08:00 no pre-conceived strategies 2012-02-06T11:08:15 tanks! 2012-02-06T11:08:33 solvable 2012-02-06T11:08:43 how so? 2012-02-06T11:08:45 well for the most part 2012-02-06T11:08:54 assuming you mean like scorched earth type tanks 2012-02-06T11:09:00 No no no 2012-02-06T11:11:01 The strategy of destroying the food supply of the civilian population in an area of conflict has been banned under Article 54 of Protocol I of the 1977 Geneva Conventions. 2012-02-06T11:11:14 mcstar: ? 2012-02-06T11:11:27 wikipedia on scorched earth tactics 2012-02-06T11:11:31 http://www.scorch2000.com/ 2012-02-06T11:11:33 haha 2012-02-06T11:12:33 thing is, winners get to define the rules after the war is over... and even apply those rules rather selectively 2012-02-06T11:12:55 there are some 2d ai tank games out there already 2012-02-06T11:13:25 *** Israfel has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2012-02-06T11:13:42 even if you hide almost all data from an AI in a game like scorched 2012-02-06T11:13:55 after 1 turn, everything can be calculated 2012-02-06T11:14:16 rwest: that was not the type of tank game suggested... 2012-02-06T11:14:17 assuming you tell the AI where it hit 2012-02-06T11:14:24 what was? 2012-02-06T11:14:37 pairofdice can correct me if i am wrong 2012-02-06T11:14:55 but i was assuming some sort of 2d tank game 2012-02-06T11:15:00 I guess if you did top down 2012-02-06T11:15:04 yea 2012-02-06T11:15:13 still, turn based 2012-02-06T11:15:13 sorry.. guess the other is 2d too. 2012-02-06T11:15:16 no 2012-02-06T11:15:22 well yes... 2012-02-06T11:15:32 but like ants etc... turns all at the same time 2012-02-06T11:15:43 aka "real time" 2012-02-06T11:15:48 something like that 2012-02-06T11:15:54 yea, but with tanks it wouldn't be interesting I don't think 2012-02-06T11:15:59 partial information, real time, random results 2012-02-06T11:16:04 depends on details 2012-02-06T11:16:32 eg the maps can add a strong strategic element... 2012-02-06T11:16:37 you would have to hide the detail of projectiles I think 2012-02-06T11:16:41 depending on how this affects game dynamics 2012-02-06T11:16:49 how about accepting that Ants was the greatest ai challenge, and it would be pointless to organize another challenge? 2012-02-06T11:16:56 slow-ish projectiles 2012-02-06T11:17:17 rwest: its not a phyiscs simulation 2012-02-06T11:17:48 delt0r: I know, but them being easily dodgeable makes the game well, boring 2012-02-06T11:17:52 mcstar: you seem a bit jaded with the whole thing? 2012-02-06T11:17:58 I have coded AI for games where I could dodge them 2012-02-06T11:18:03 was kind of lame 2012-02-06T11:18:27 you can't doge bullets... well i would never do it that way 2012-02-06T11:19:04 but i don't see a big difference between the Asteroids suggestion and tanks... 2012-02-06T11:19:32 I'm not the biggest fan of asteroid either heh 2012-02-06T11:19:38 pff! 2012-02-06T11:19:44 unless it was real time 2012-02-06T11:19:55 it is 2012-02-06T11:19:56 I want to make an xpilot bot though 2012-02-06T11:20:56 a set number of distinct turns where things are calculated in phases 2012-02-06T11:21:08 is not real time 2012-02-06T11:21:51 it is in pratice... that the only way to implement it for this sort of thing... 2012-02-06T11:22:15 its not the soccer simulation league... we are not all going to turn up with our own hardware 2012-02-06T11:23:10 it can be done quite easily on servers.. 2012-02-06T11:24:30 not fairly with 5 players at once on the same machine 2012-02-06T11:24:37 VMs 2012-02-06T11:24:55 does not make the same machine more than one machine 2012-02-06T11:25:06 but it can split the resources correctly 2012-02-06T11:25:18 also its a much higher barrier to entery 2012-02-06T11:25:22 so there is no advantage 2012-02-06T11:25:32 *** Israfel has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T11:25:36 how so? 2012-02-06T11:25:47 well I guess a little bit 2012-02-06T11:26:09 for the soccor leauge, a huge amount of the dev work is getting the bot to output orders at the last possible moment, but not so late that is missed a internal server tick 2012-02-06T11:26:35 well there would be no internal server tick 2012-02-06T11:26:43 orders processed as received 2012-02-06T11:26:50 rwest: VMs etc *do not time slice fairly* these are not real time systems... 2012-02-06T11:27:03 rwest: there is no way to do that 2012-02-06T11:27:14 you must have a internal update cycle 2012-02-06T11:27:19 delt0r: you divide it up so that you do not use more than the systems available resources. 2012-02-06T11:27:39 *** g0llum has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T11:27:58 otherwise it would be a semaphore nightmare with totally arbitrary execution. 2012-02-06T11:28:29 I believe AWS has 8-core systems 2012-02-06T11:28:33 rwest: does not matter how. The system divides it up the way it pleases... i have worked on this sort of thing.. 2012-02-06T11:28:40 not only would it not work... 2012-02-06T11:28:49 but its a massive amount of work for what? 2012-02-06T11:29:02 just have 5 turns per sec 2012-02-06T11:29:04 done and done 2012-02-06T11:29:17 well since they use AWS 2012-02-06T11:29:32 provisioning a bunch of small instances 2012-02-06T11:29:49 rwest: and how many address and data busses does it have? 2012-02-06T11:30:06 works fine for a web server... not for real time stuff... not real real time stuff anyway 2012-02-06T11:30:42 hmm let's see the latency between them 2012-02-06T11:30:43 sec 2012-02-06T11:30:46 but hay you want to set it all up then deal with the fall out when everyone complaines that they *don't* get the same cpu time... 2012-02-06T11:30:49 be my guest 2012-02-06T11:31:14 *** smiley1983 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2012-02-06T11:31:37 rwest: also you are not the first to say all this... i put money on it not happening... 2012-02-06T11:31:47 *** smiley1983 has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T11:31:58 for one simple reason... its only easy for people who won't put time into doing it 2012-02-06T11:34:00 *** dapplegate has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T11:34:10 64 bytes from 10.4.3.82: icmp_req=2 ttl=62 time=0.907 ms 2012-02-06T11:34:10 64 bytes from 10.4.3.82: icmp_req=3 ttl=62 time=0.634 ms 2012-02-06T11:34:10 64 bytes from 10.4.3.82: icmp_req=4 ttl=62 time=0.625 ms 2012-02-06T11:34:10 64 bytes from 10.4.3.82: icmp_req=5 ttl=62 time=0.668 ms 2012-02-06T11:34:11 64 bytes from 10.4.3.82: icmp_req=6 ttl=62 time=0.629 ms 2012-02-06T11:34:17 I think the internal network is good 2012-02-06T11:34:24 lol 2012-02-06T11:34:49 More like goo 2012-02-06T11:34:56 your not listening.... 2012-02-06T11:35:07 i have 0.4ms on average to my router 2012-02-06T11:35:17 on a 50cm long cabl 2012-02-06T11:35:19 e 2012-02-06T11:35:26 damn, i was disappointed yesterday 2012-02-06T11:36:04 my old laptop with wifi g 54mbps, reached 1.6MB/sec for file copying 2012-02-06T11:36:07 delt0r: I would put in time, and they WOULD get the same cpu time 2012-02-06T11:36:13 lol 2012-02-06T11:36:17 yea right 2012-02-06T11:36:22 good luck with that 2012-02-06T11:36:25 AWS ... 2012-02-06T11:36:52 oh by the way... if you don't get about 20 games per min there will also be a huge flood of complaints 2012-02-06T11:37:02 they don't get that now 2012-02-06T11:37:17 yea... did you read the forums or here? 2012-02-06T11:37:22 that is what i mean... 2012-02-06T11:37:35 so anyway, the only kind of computer games i ever liked was FPS 2012-02-06T11:38:07 delt0r: apparently I am supposed to read my chat logs every day, I will get on that 2012-02-06T11:38:15 Magic business talk crap is just that...with VMs etc... i have no time for. We got rid of it on our cluster because it was costing us 50% CPU 2012-02-06T11:38:46 nice for web servers... not much else 2012-02-06T11:39:08 EC2 gives you full systems 2012-02-06T11:39:18 well virtual systems 2012-02-06T11:39:25 with actual resources 2012-02-06T11:39:36 yea i know 2012-02-06T11:39:38 so what 2012-02-06T11:39:45 are you guys talking about some real-time engine for the game? 2012-02-06T11:39:47 it does not give you real time performance... 2012-02-06T11:40:08 its gives you good average time performance... well that can be debated as well 2012-02-06T11:40:18 these are not the same time 2012-02-06T11:40:38 and seriously... i want to see this game engine without an internal step 2012-02-06T11:41:07 i have seen theory papers on it... but never a real implementation... 2012-02-06T11:41:14 while(1) { update() } 2012-02-06T11:41:26 that is a internal step 2012-02-06T11:41:34 its not a calculatable one... 2012-02-06T11:41:40 yes it is 2012-02-06T11:42:02 ... 2012-02-06T11:42:18 when do the bots get updates? 2012-02-06T11:42:28 now the game plays at different rates too.... not a good way to implement it... 2012-02-06T11:42:54 depending on how busy the cpu is or what other processors are doing to the cache 2012-02-06T11:42:57 etc 2012-02-06T11:43:01 as with any game played with a server/client 2012-02-06T11:43:31 what is on the server is what matters 2012-02-06T11:43:48 if the client is behind because of latency or what not, the server doesn't care 2012-02-06T11:43:55 well to a point 2012-02-06T11:43:59 not when you have time slots for everything and the bots get a fixed amount of time to do stuff 2012-02-06T11:44:27 how about assigning the clients constant cpu cycles, and time can only advance when everyone used up theirs? 2012-02-06T11:44:37 ie its real time from the perspective of the bot... without all these PITA issues 2012-02-06T11:44:52 why bother? what have you gained? its not a real time real world robot 2012-02-06T11:45:15 KISS.... keep it simple stupid... 2012-02-06T11:45:22 silly 2012-02-06T11:46:03 mcstar: that is the idea... unfortunately this is hard to implement on modern PCs 2012-02-06T11:51:30 *** kilae has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T12:02:15 next topic: permanent magnets in physicotherapy 2012-02-06T12:02:24 *** lhb__ has joined #aichallenge 2012-02-06T12:02:34 *** raemde_ has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2012-02-06T12:07:18 awesomeness... what about homeopathy? 2012-02-06T12:08:04 that too 2012-02-06T12:08:44 add a couple of things like spiritual therapies and whatnot and you get my mother 2012-02-06T12:09:35 it is totally futile to convince these people of some things 2012-02-06T12:09:58 and the meaning of evidence is totally flawed in their minds 2012-02-06T12:14:36 *** Israfel has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) 2012-02-06T12:23:27 the thing is that the placebo effect is so strong that as long as the think it works... it can a bit... 2012-02-06T12:23:36 they think 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