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smiley1983 has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T09:41:09 *** smiley1983 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2012-03-21T09:42:11 *** smiley1983 has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T09:48:41 NoxiaZ^: you use a lot of langs that "compile" to class files --ie run on a jvm 2012-03-21T09:50:00 *** kurnevsky has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T09:53:05 *** kurnevsky has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2012-03-21T09:55:15 *** smiley1983 has quit IRC (Read error: Operation timed out) 2012-03-21T09:56:16 *** kurnevsky has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T09:56:34 *** smiley1983 has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T09:59:21 *** X-Scale has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T10:00:02 *** dici has quit IRC (Quit: ( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )) 2012-03-21T10:04:20 *** mcstar has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T10:04:43 did it again 2012-03-21T10:04:45 oops 2012-03-21T10:06:54 mcstar: ? 2012-03-21T10:07:17 i went biking in sand again 2012-03-21T10:07:20 with slick tires 2012-03-21T10:07:36 antimatroid 2012-03-21T10:07:40 hehe 2012-03-21T10:07:52 i have blisters on my right hand 2012-03-21T10:08:07 I went on soft sand at speed from rock... and then tried to turn... 2012-03-21T10:08:25 haha love those 2012-03-21T10:08:25 everyone watching thought it was pretty funny 2012-03-21T10:08:50 it is much safer than doing the same on gravel 2012-03-21T10:09:00 true 2012-03-21T10:09:02 you cant really hurt yourself on sand 2012-03-21T10:09:16 well did a bit of skiing this season 2012-03-21T10:09:29 even soft snow at speed can bloody well hurt 2012-03-21T10:09:32 there was some sections where the road was wet a bit, i think my speed increased 3 fold 2012-03-21T10:09:41 my gps said i was going 80km/h at the time 2012-03-21T10:09:52 insane speed 2012-03-21T10:09:56 even on a bike 2012-03-21T10:10:08 good skiers go a bit faster than that 2012-03-21T10:10:15 my point 2012-03-21T10:10:15 or faster conditions... 2012-03-21T10:10:17 they are insane 2012-03-21T10:10:32 but it is soo much fun 2012-03-21T10:10:42 i have never skiiied 2012-03-21T10:10:56 esp early in the morning when you have the whole mountian to yourself.. 2012-03-21T10:11:06 totally worth the 5am starts 2012-03-21T10:11:20 are your knees in good shape? 2012-03-21T10:11:25 well yea 2012-03-21T10:11:28 im sure mine arent 2012-03-21T10:11:35 did exersize over summer 2012-03-21T10:11:47 haha 2012-03-21T10:11:50 love your typos 2012-03-21T10:11:57 i had a motor bike accident when i was younger 2012-03-21T10:12:20 mcstar: i am told i have my own english dialect 2012-03-21T10:12:34 busted up one knee a bit 2012-03-21T10:12:41 so i have to be careful 2012-03-21T10:12:49 anyway 2012-03-21T10:12:57 was looking at the ai website... 2012-03-21T10:13:02 php ... 2012-03-21T10:13:06 * delt0r shudders 2012-03-21T10:13:41 both of my knees hurt at a specific angle 2012-03-21T10:13:51 i almost cant hold my weight at that angle 2012-03-21T10:13:57 increadibly painful 2012-03-21T10:14:11 I am a bit lost on why it needs a rewrite or what in particular is the problem with the "framework" 2012-03-21T10:14:12 and i dont really have a good explanation why is that 2012-03-21T10:14:15 whatever that is 2012-03-21T10:14:31 mcstar: that is what one of my knees is like 2012-03-21T10:14:50 but if i get the muscles around the knee in shape, its a lot better 2012-03-21T10:15:01 good thing that it doesnt affect cycling/running 2012-03-21T10:15:06 delt0r: I have also been trying to work out what needs rewriting in the backend, and it doesn't seem obvious from the issues list 2012-03-21T10:15:29 what are you guys talking about? aichallenge? 2012-03-21T10:15:37 smiley1983: oh yea issues list... is that in the gitrepo? 2012-03-21T10:15:52 delt0r: yes, but it looks like it hasn't been updated in a while 2012-03-21T10:16:01 smiley1983: well its kind of a big ball of code... but websites always get like that 2012-03-21T10:16:14 mcstar: yeah, sorry to change the subject :) 2012-03-21T10:16:28 np 2012-03-21T10:16:39 just wasnt sure what php 2012-03-21T10:16:55 I remember that one of the things they didn't like was the difficulty in setting up a contest server instance 2012-03-21T10:17:47 right... 2012-03-21T10:18:09 but I'm not sure a complete rewrite is going to make that better :) 2012-03-21T10:18:23 well if i was starting again i would not use php... 2012-03-21T10:18:24 BUT 2012-03-21T10:18:32 i am not sure what i would use instead... 2012-03-21T10:18:43 perhaps php is not so bad for something like this 2012-03-21T10:19:07 try haskell 2012-03-21T10:19:34 for a web site? 2012-03-21T10:19:37 i don't think so 2012-03-21T10:20:00 http://snapframework.com/ 2012-03-21T10:20:16 site looks nice 2012-03-21T10:23:25 i just saw it today, know nothing about it 2012-03-21T10:23:40 it looks smart to say 'try haskell' these days 2012-03-21T10:23:42 doesnt it? 2012-03-21T10:23:55 Try Haskell 2012-03-21T10:24:07 hey, thats a good idea! 2012-03-21T10:24:12 haskell is fine... untill you need to use it for real work 2012-03-21T10:24:34 then use common lisp 2012-03-21T10:24:55 (made with secret alien technology) 2012-03-21T10:24:59 XD 2012-03-21T10:25:14 that slogan is catchy, you have to admit it 2012-03-21T10:25:58 pairofdice: are you done with this week's cryto material? 2012-03-21T10:26:46 delt0r: or try clojure 2012-03-21T10:27:07 you know the java economy very well dont you? 2012-03-21T10:27:16 doing cs373: SkyNetCar 2012-03-21T10:27:29 is it more interesting that crypto? 2012-03-21T10:27:32 than* 2012-03-21T10:27:46 i guess the homework is much thicker 2012-03-21T10:28:16 It started earlier so I've stayed with it 2012-03-21T10:28:22 And it's interesting 2012-03-21T10:28:42 it sounds like you abandoned crypto, is that so? 2012-03-21T10:29:08 Nah 2012-03-21T10:29:29 mcstar: yea... i know the java eco system well --at least 6 years ago wrt web stuff 2012-03-21T10:29:36 did enterprise stuff etc 2012-03-21T10:30:18 mcstar: using lisp does sound tempting 2012-03-21T10:30:19 delt0r: so have you considered clojure at all? 2012-03-21T10:30:23 yes 2012-03-21T10:30:48 but for a website like this it seems prudent to use something more people are familiar with 2012-03-21T10:31:16 then why not write the site in python too? 2012-03-21T10:31:16 clojure should have kept the syntax as clean as lisp IMO 2012-03-21T10:31:59 mcstar: i think this was the main thrust of it... only can you do like html+phython easily like php? 2012-03-21T10:32:14 well, but this way most of clojure's data structure is readable 2012-03-21T10:32:15 *** coeus has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T10:32:24 and the [] makes some sense 2012-03-21T10:32:55 well some lisp compilers let you use [] and {} as direct substitutes for () 2012-03-21T10:33:25 you can use keys as lookup functions 2012-03-21T10:33:32 at leat syntactically 2012-03-21T10:33:37 thats conscice 2012-03-21T10:34:16 i have no idea about the concurrency part 2012-03-21T10:34:21 how succesful that is 2012-03-21T10:34:34 or its speed 2012-03-21T10:34:54 *** foRei has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T10:35:10 well java does that pretty well compared to most...but really you need to be explicit. Compilers still don't do a good job yet 2012-03-21T10:36:49 honestly, i am torn between programming languages 2012-03-21T10:36:55 * antimatroid is alive! 2012-03-21T10:36:59 hey 2012-03-21T10:37:12 don't be... just use what is ever best this time.. don't get stuck on one 2012-03-21T10:37:13 antimatroid: i went sandbikin again, how stupid is that 2012-03-21T10:37:19 *** Cyndre_ has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T10:37:28 mind you i am doing a lot of java these days and not much else 2012-03-21T10:39:17 mcstar: you said, not the brightest :p 2012-03-21T10:39:35 it was great tbh 2012-03-21T10:39:59 sucked out quite much of my energy in just 2 hours 2012-03-21T10:40:37 *** Cyndre__ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2012-03-21T10:46:07 python + numpy + scipy + matplotlib = can replace matlab, which i dont like, quite succint and much saner, also, slow very slow, numericla cores must be in c; common lisp = mature very nice language, SLIME is incredible, best dynamic experience, with not much effort it can be very fast, almost C, but youve got to look for libraries a bit harder, no simple plotting afaik; c++ = have to use it, not a 2012-03-21T10:46:09 'designed' language, performance characteristics are quite clear, also casting/classes/whatever arent very logical, keywords mean a lot of thing upon context, hard to read; haskell = looks nice, tons of wonderful ideas, and mature, exciting, but takes an AWFUL lot of time to actully understand those, has an interactive shell which can come handy 2012-03-21T10:51:04 *** sigh has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2012-03-21T10:53:40 this is what's wrong with the world 2012-03-21T10:53:43 nobody cares 2012-03-21T10:54:49 *** cyphase has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2012-03-21T10:55:45 * mcstar stfu 2012-03-21T10:58:27 C++ is quite hard to write fast code if you don't know what you are doing 2012-03-21T10:58:51 scientific or general? 2012-03-21T10:59:12 its ends up being very easy to be moving massive amounts of data round in RAM that no amount of DMAs can speed up 2012-03-21T10:59:15 both 2012-03-21T10:59:37 superflous copying? 2012-03-21T10:59:58 yea 2012-03-21T11:00:31 its clear whether you pass by value or by reference 2012-03-21T11:00:35 operators and == do a lot of bitwise object copying... as does STL 2012-03-21T11:00:44 i see 2012-03-21T11:00:51 i am talking about just in a method body 2012-03-21T11:01:01 to first order it does not matter 2012-03-21T11:01:33 but its performance trap if you are not aware for critical parts of the code 2012-03-21T11:02:00 i cant imagine writing some massive amount of code in it 2012-03-21T11:02:21 im writing this qt stuff now, but my classes are pretty interdependent 2012-03-21T11:02:27 quite ugly 2012-03-21T11:02:28 mcstar: my perfect lang. lisp with a stander lib like java that runs on just about anything 2012-03-21T11:02:42 mcstar: well it is gui stuff 2012-03-21T11:02:42 abcl? 2012-03-21T11:02:50 its always ugly in the end 2012-03-21T11:02:55 yea 2012-03-21T11:03:09 abcl is almost 100% lisp finsihed now 2012-03-21T11:03:09 did you use it? 2012-03-21T11:03:16 no 2012-03-21T11:03:21 sorry not abcl 2012-03-21T11:03:38 yea.. abcl does not run everywhere and it does not have the libs that java has 2012-03-21T11:03:58 what you cant interoperate with java? 2012-03-21T11:04:00 here is a lisp that runs on the jvm that is almost finished... as in 100% clisp 2012-03-21T11:04:19 wait im confused 2012-03-21T11:04:22 abcl is not the lisp on the jvm is it? 2012-03-21T11:04:26 it is 2012-03-21T11:04:27 me too 2012-03-21T11:04:32 armed bear common lisp 2012-03-21T11:04:38 a jar file 2012-03-21T11:04:42 * delt0r puts on his confused face 2012-03-21T11:04:43 if you compile it 2012-03-21T11:04:58 i did couple of days ago for testing 2012-03-21T11:05:07 clisp is a byte-compiler for CL 2012-03-21T11:05:15 quite slow, but some say its useful 2012-03-21T11:05:16 right... yea well last time i tried it it wasn't quite complete... 2012-03-21T11:05:30 that is the jvm one i meant 2012-03-21T11:05:47 but i would have a few changes to lisp to make it better. 2012-03-21T11:06:12 why isnt clojure ideal then? 2012-03-21T11:06:14 optimal strong typing. aka a strict keyword 2012-03-21T11:06:24 continuations 2012-03-21T11:06:49 clojure is kinda --but again i really like the clean syntax of lisp... 2012-03-21T11:07:04 also i am waiting for a project for me to use it on 2012-03-21T11:07:14 afaik you could get used to it 2012-03-21T11:07:22 right now... java is still the best tool for my current job 2012-03-21T11:07:45 ive seen some java snippets, but its soo much boilerplate isnt it? 2012-03-21T11:08:03 too much? it is not more than C/C++ 2012-03-21T11:08:08 which is perhaps too much 2012-03-21T11:08:12 thats too much too 2012-03-21T11:08:31 but it take what 20 sec to write boilerplate and how long to debug and dev an app 2012-03-21T11:08:50 its like having two letter function names because it is less typing 2012-03-21T11:08:58 its not the biggest problem with these langs 2012-03-21T11:09:27 what is? 2012-03-21T11:09:31 mutability? 2012-03-21T11:09:32 and well you also end up writing a lot of boilerplat in python too IME 2012-03-21T11:10:14 mcstar: well the C like langs IMO all have this "its still the 60s, and we know better than the compiler" 2012-03-21T11:10:18 feel to them 2012-03-21T11:10:28 true 2012-03-21T11:10:48 java is better than C/C++ in this regard... but still i feel we should be much futher along that we are 2012-03-21T11:10:56 its 2012 for gods sake 2012-03-21T11:11:37 I use things like "find bugs" etc... but better tools to find bugs before there are bugs 2012-03-21T11:12:40 would be good... perhaps better typing .. ie static typing, but inferred 2012-03-21T11:12:55 haskell has a nice type system 2012-03-21T11:13:05 the haskell type ssytem is its biggest selling point 2012-03-21T11:13:26 better matching syntax. like haskell's case things 2012-03-21T11:13:41 these are great. easy to read. easy to get right 2012-03-21T11:14:03 have you tried writing sequential code in haskell? 2012-03-21T11:14:31 and finally we need better standard libs... the fact that we still don't have tcp/ip in the standard C libs is a disgrace 2012-03-21T11:14:32 *** cyphase has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T11:14:44 i really feel like we are still in the 60s 2012-03-21T11:15:09 mcstar: not for a while--i did some haskell about 7 years ago .. have not touched it since 2012-03-21T11:19:27 *** mviel_ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds) 2012-03-21T11:21:56 smiley1983: janzert would probably be the best person to talk to about why specifically a rewrite is needed 2012-03-21T11:22:08 mcleopold would perhaps be helpful too 2012-03-21T11:22:08 I did ask 2012-03-21T11:22:15 all i got was look at the code... 2012-03-21T11:22:27 and "it really needs a rewrite" 2012-03-21T11:22:55 mcleopold would be keep for python i guess 2012-03-21T11:23:21 i'm not sure if this would be a good idea or not 2012-03-21T11:23:44 but if a tcp server was first to be set up with past games etc. it could help bringing in some more contributers 2012-03-21T11:23:50 well its the web... even a really bad idea, is probably still better than all the other ideas 2012-03-21T11:24:07 i'd be worried there aren't enough people to complete a rewrite even if it was somewhat organised 2012-03-21T11:24:09 I mean rather than php 2012-03-21T11:24:31 *** Areks has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2012-03-21T11:24:34 antimatroid: i wouldn't expect to start from scratch... but gradually replace things... 2012-03-21T11:24:36 my skills are very limited when it comes to this stuff 2012-03-21T11:24:54 if not non-existent 2012-03-21T11:25:02 since a lot of the thing is in python already it makes some sense 2012-03-21T11:25:19 if i did it in java i think i would be the only contributor :P 2012-03-21T11:25:39 I'm not the proponent for the complete rewrite, but I believe the motivation is to replace the php website with a python site that is better organized and the backend with python that is much more complicated and ornate :P 2012-03-21T11:25:46 This is experimental prerelease support for the Windows platform: use 2012-03-21T11:25:49 at your own risk. "Your Kitten of Death awaits!" 2012-03-21T11:26:06 janzert: lol 2012-03-21T11:26:26 janzert: a lot of core stuff was quite buggy yeah? that's about all i know 2012-03-21T11:26:33 janzert: so you don't think a rewirte is needed? just a clean up? 2012-03-21T11:26:36 i don't know what to tell people needs fixing up etc. 2012-03-21T11:27:01 i am looking at putting some time into this soon... just to have something else to do... 2012-03-21T11:27:05 what if we started a page on the wiki of what currently is too buggy to be "acceptable"? 2012-03-21T11:27:36 something being done has to be better than nothing at present :) 2012-03-21T11:27:38 I think the backend works pretty well, although there are things that should be moved back out of the database (specifically mostly the matchmaking) 2012-03-21T11:27:38 *** mviel_ has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T11:27:44 i have not found a bug list on git.. is there one... or is it more of a report in the forums 2012-03-21T11:27:58 right... 2012-03-21T11:28:02 there was one 2012-03-21T11:28:12 so really just the php needs replacing? 2012-03-21T11:28:19 but really I don't see it worth putting any effort into code atm, since the blocking problem is non-profit status and getting Jeff involved again 2012-03-21T11:28:29 lol 2012-03-21T11:28:37 well k then 2012-03-21T11:28:43 https://github.com/aichallenge/aichallenge/issues?milestone=1&sort=created&direction=desc&state=open ? 2012-03-21T11:28:55 may not have time later of course...and i can't see that stopping that comp 2012-03-21T11:29:01 I don't think Jeff is getting involved again 2012-03-21T11:29:02 I have heard some bit from him that he may be back around in the coming months so we'll see 2012-03-21T11:29:14 we either accept his "awayness" or ask that he pass his "role" onto someone else 2012-03-21T11:29:19 oh okay 2012-03-21T11:29:24 janzert: where are you located? 2012-03-21T11:29:32 Michigan 2012-03-21T11:29:41 Traverse city more specifically 2012-03-21T11:30:09 right... 2012-03-21T11:30:14 would it not be feasible to start working on a new game then? it took almost a year to get Ants ready to launch 2012-03-21T11:30:30 so the non profit status is hard to change? (in NZ it is really easy) 2012-03-21T11:30:53 delt0r: a new tcp server is definitely needed, and preferably an official one at that 2012-03-21T11:31:10 where is the current one? not hosted? 2012-03-21T11:31:23 there's github copies 2012-03-21T11:31:26 if organizational issues were taken care of I would like to see a multiplayer game fitted into the current system and run quickly while people interested in the rewrite worked on getting that up seperately 2012-03-21T11:31:34 also even if not officaly non profit.. you can still accept donations.. 2012-03-21T11:31:48 delt0r: https://github.com/berak/ants-tcp 2012-03-21T11:32:01 oh that is what you mean antimatroid 2012-03-21T11:32:08 I looked at what might be needed to get a TCP server with tron, pw and ants the other day 2012-03-21T11:32:10 mostly non-profit just needs Jeff to either do it or hand off to someone that is willing to do it 2012-03-21T11:32:17 janzert: yea keep people interested and keep the forums alive 2012-03-21T11:32:21 smiley1983: results? 2012-03-21T11:32:38 there was someone working on it in December but they got discouraged with trying to get responses from Jeff 2012-03-21T11:32:47 I knew tron would have to be rewritten, but I had forgotten that pw was in Java (was there a Python version implemented eventually?) 2012-03-21T11:33:04 pw was in java? :S 2012-03-21T11:33:04 the server engine was python 2012-03-21T11:33:09 *** coeus has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2012-03-21T11:33:12 janzert: why does Jeff need to be so involved when, tbh, he seems to never even be around? 2012-03-21T11:33:34 because he is still the person ultimately in charge 2012-03-21T11:33:52 pw? what is pw? 2012-03-21T11:33:53 if he would hand it off then we'd be ok too 2012-03-21T11:33:54 he brings the money 2012-03-21T11:34:01 planetwars 2012-03-21T11:34:07 and you know java is not like well cancer or anything 2012-03-21T11:34:09 if he is going to be back in some distant future then that's fine, but i wonder if that's realistic? 2012-03-21T11:34:19 otherwise it's about time he passed that on 2012-03-21T11:34:28 I also wasn't sure that I had retrieved the most recent pw code; I used the Ants git repo and backtracked, but may not have gone to the correct point 2012-03-21T11:34:43 its always... well we haven't got a reply from Jeff yet 2012-03-21T11:34:51 imo that is not in charge 2012-03-21T11:34:54 that is MIA 2012-03-21T11:35:08 smiley1983: i wouldn't worry too much about the games atm, i'd assume you have a working python engine and what not 2012-03-21T11:35:17 smiley1983: look under tags 2012-03-21T11:35:35 try to generalise tcp to work for multiple games with a "format" then make sure past games are fixed up to work for that "format" after 2012-03-21T11:36:06 janzert: so say writing up some mplayer asteroids and just rolling it out would be something you are interested in? 2012-03-21T11:36:19 the way the planetwars engine interfaced with the system was completely different than the ants did 2012-03-21T11:36:25 janzert: Thank you! that's what I was looking for the other day :) 2012-03-21T11:36:35 could that be generalised though? so it wasn't different? 2012-03-21T11:36:54 i don't think running past contest games has to be the exact same code from those contests 2012-03-21T11:36:57 delt0r: not without the organization issue being solved first though 2012-03-21T11:37:02 dammit 2012-03-21T11:37:13 * delt0r mumbles under his breath 2012-03-21T11:37:20 forkit! 2012-03-21T11:37:33 i don't really mean that... 2012-03-21T11:37:35 it just caused to much trouble for ants, I'm not interested in doing that again 2012-03-21T11:37:38 just it sounds like 2012-03-21T11:37:51 janzert: what troubles? 2012-03-21T11:37:58 i think i missed it 2012-03-21T11:38:17 money problems mostly 2012-03-21T11:38:27 really, as in no money? 2012-03-21T11:38:42 people wanting to donate and us sending mixed messages about how and the possibility of 2012-03-21T11:38:50 what does Jeff do for a day job? 2012-03-21T11:38:52 ic 2012-03-21T11:39:02 programmer for a finance firm i think 2012-03-21T11:39:08 something in finance, yeah 2012-03-21T11:39:11 hft ehh 2012-03-21T11:39:19 well that explains a lot 2012-03-21T11:39:39 jeff has also had to do some weird stuff previously i think taxwise because we're not a non-profit 2012-03-21T11:39:42 no time... but the forlorn hope that he will have time to have a life and a hobby 2012-03-21T11:39:44 sucker 2012-03-21T11:39:59 right we're really not anything :) 2012-03-21T11:40:08 you just need to pay tax... 2012-03-21T11:40:26 not the end of the world 2012-03-21T11:40:38 so roadmap: 1. Become a non-profit, 2. set up new game, ..., 4. non-profit!? 2012-03-21T11:40:43 so all money essentially is Jeff's personal income or whoever accepts it I suppose 2012-03-21T11:41:13 yea and others can't use it as a tax credit... or whatever you call it in the US 2012-03-21T11:41:33 tax deduction here 2012-03-21T11:41:49 so even if we were a 'for profit' would be better, but if we are going to set up anything it isn't much more trouble to setup the non-profit 2012-03-21T11:42:32 So in NZ we can just register as a non profit club/church/community group 2012-03-21T11:42:41 what's happened to amstan too? 2012-03-21T11:42:46 he seems to have mostly disappeared 2012-03-21T11:42:54 it takes about 3 hours to get the form and filling it in and getting filled 2012-03-21T11:43:04 does the US have something similar? 2012-03-21T11:43:21 i think in canada (where this will be done) they need like 2 people's names on there etc. 2012-03-21T11:43:34 fairly, but Jeff, et al. are Canadian :) 2012-03-21T11:43:35 it didn't sound that easy when people described it in the past anyway 2012-03-21T11:43:41 Canada? well i am in canada this summer 2012-03-21T11:43:54 summer in whose terms? :P 2012-03-21T11:44:23 summer is ending D: 2012-03-21T11:44:29 july and i will be in Ottawa, Montreal and Toronto 2012-03-21T11:44:56 I could party with Jeff :D 2012-03-21T11:45:08 Yeah, when you're in Toronto look up amstan and Jeff 2012-03-21T11:45:12 * delt0r thinks about beer 2012-03-21T11:45:26 cool amstan is there too 2012-03-21T11:45:29 didn't know that 2012-03-21T11:45:49 one or two others as well 2012-03-21T11:45:52 Dunno if amstan is still in Toronto. Thought he was living in Hamilton most of the time. 2012-03-21T11:46:06 (at Mohawk College) 2012-03-21T11:46:11 ahh 2012-03-21T11:46:25 Would have to check with him as I'm not 100% on that. 2012-03-21T11:47:02 jbroman might be there though 2012-03-21T11:47:14 jbroman: where is amstan these days? :P 2012-03-21T11:47:20 janzert: so in summary, do nothing. :( 2012-03-21T11:47:42 unfortunately 2012-03-21T11:48:02 occasional emails to Jeff probably wouldn't hurt 2012-03-21T11:48:19 and ask what? 2012-03-21T11:48:39 if he is not replying to you, i will be going into the spam folder 2012-03-21T11:49:42 yeah, just something to bump it back into his consciousness I suppose 2012-03-21T11:50:03 I'm personally heading into my busy time for work so won't be around much again 2012-03-21T11:50:13 it will just be work... I worked for a finance company once. 2012-03-21T11:50:31 no life outside sleep and work 2012-03-21T11:50:45 that is why i am now back at uni ... less pay 2012-03-21T11:50:49 great life 2012-03-21T11:51:08 janzert: what is your day job? 2012-03-21T11:51:31 family Audio/Visual business 2012-03-21T11:51:47 basically business meeting presentations 2012-03-21T11:52:07 mostly for medical groups 2012-03-21T11:52:59 nice.. sounds different 2012-03-21T11:54:38 yeah, it's certainly not bad but can be hard to explain :) 2012-03-21T11:58:53 'dont worry if you lose your 56bit DES key, in 22 hours you can essentialy recover it' lol 2012-03-21T11:59:08 hehe 2012-03-21T12:04:43 mcstar: 22 hours? I think you can do a bit quicker than that 2012-03-21T12:04:55 its from 1997 2012-03-21T12:05:42 but that was some 120 FPGA chips 2012-03-21T12:06:31 well i think a modern GPU could do it in like 10 hours or something these days. 2012-03-21T12:06:48 well i guess it depends on how well DES fits modern CPU/GPUs 2012-03-21T12:06:59 very well 2012-03-21T12:07:20 point is, 56bit DES is insecure 2012-03-21T12:08:08 guy shows us how to crack double-DES now 2012-03-21T12:09:06 well there is not really a double des.. rather a 2 key tripple des 2012-03-21T12:13:47 delt0r: Because Double-DES is vulnerable to a meet-in-the-middle attack, of course. 2012-03-21T12:16:59 i know 2012-03-21T12:17:04 that is why i said it 2012-03-21T12:17:11 there is not a 2 Des ... 2012-03-21T12:20:23 damnit, stop making me interested in things! 2012-03-21T12:20:26 there is, people just dont use it 2012-03-21T12:21:24 cryptography is just as interesting as skydiving, so i wont really get excited antimatroid 2012-03-21T12:21:42 skydiving sounds awesome 2012-03-21T12:22:00 i love freefall 2012-03-21T12:22:13 i fall free love 2012-03-21T12:22:15 i jumped off a 15m bridge once 2012-03-21T12:22:20 plop 2012-03-21T12:22:52 furtunate, that architects build bridges over water 2012-03-21T12:23:26 http://a6.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/2102_47837051199_729581199_1436415_5849_n.jpg 2012-03-21T12:23:33 stupid person taking the photo only got the splash :( 2012-03-21T12:24:12 *** elfangor has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T12:24:18 http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-prn1/11131_178290806199_729581199_3008255_1234737_n.jpg that looks like i'm jumping into something really shallow aha 2012-03-21T12:25:39 Tasmania is beautiful, I should go live there. 2012-03-21T12:25:54 mcstar: I do cryptography and skydiving! 2012-03-21T12:26:48 antimatroid: interesting application of crypto ... bitcoin 2012-03-21T12:27:10 * delt0r cackles an evil laugh 2012-03-21T12:27:22 now you'll never get any work done 2012-03-21T12:27:46 smiley1983: i'd live here forver if i could 2012-03-21T12:28:36 the bridge is in WA though 2012-03-21T12:28:40 well i want to stay in Vienna forever, but i may need to shift soon.. and/or find a job 2012-03-21T12:28:59 the "waterhole thing" is up mount wellington in hobart though (damn that water was cold!) 2012-03-21T12:29:13 i'm good here for another 3 years cause of phd 2012-03-21T12:29:22 i'm pretty much out of options here after that 2012-03-21T12:29:37 I applied for a job at the uni there... 2012-03-21T12:29:39 i might try hft then which means sydney 2012-03-21T12:29:41 didn't get it however 2012-03-21T12:29:48 god no 2012-03-21T12:29:49 yeah you mentioned, that sucks :( 2012-03-21T12:29:51 don't do it 2012-03-21T12:29:55 but money 2012-03-21T12:30:02 and it sounds not that different to ai 2012-03-21T12:30:04 games 2012-03-21T12:30:07 selling your sole like that 2012-03-21T12:30:11 soul 2012-03-21T12:30:13 hehe 2012-03-21T12:31:08 no hft is about a small group of people who are allowed to play by different rules than the rest of us. 2012-03-21T12:31:39 if its good for the economy etc, then it should be for everyone. 2012-03-21T12:31:41 hft? 2012-03-21T12:31:50 High Frequency Trading 2012-03-21T12:32:02 All sorts of wrong 2012-03-21T12:32:18 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Algorithmic_trading#Strategy_implementation 2012-03-21T12:32:24 *** kilae has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T12:32:31 how are the rules different for hft people? 2012-03-21T12:32:35 even exploit matching algo behaviors with stuffing etc 2012-03-21T12:32:40 i'm not sold on it being inherently bad as some people claim 2012-03-21T12:32:40 basically cheating 2012-03-21T12:33:01 finance is not zero sum either 2012-03-21T12:33:08 antimatroid: i am not either... but then i am not alowed to do it 2012-03-21T12:33:10 why 2012-03-21T12:33:19 because i am not them... that makes it wrong 2012-03-21T12:33:24 do you know what a comparative advantage is? 2012-03-21T12:34:00 oh and when there algos go all insane and cost one of these elite a lot of cash. Hours of trade are rolled backed 2012-03-21T12:34:32 sure, but humans fuck up too 2012-03-21T12:34:37 antimatroid: finance is zero sum on typical time scales 2012-03-21T12:35:00 antimatroid: So why the fuck can't I by a HFT brokerage account? 2012-03-21T12:35:08 it is not open 2012-03-21T12:35:18 its for a specail few with special treatment 2012-03-21T12:35:19 hmm okay i dunno why that isn't allowed 2012-03-21T12:35:27 that is what i don't like 2012-03-21T12:35:32 i would be in favour of allowing anyway to partake in hft 2012-03-21T12:35:36 anyone* 2012-03-21T12:35:46 no point 2012-03-21T12:35:50 if its a "good" thing then its not a special privilege 2012-03-21T12:35:51 if speed is the leverage 2012-03-21T12:36:51 but it is a special privilege... and liquidity arguments are BS too, since we don't need to measure that in millionths of a second 2012-03-21T12:37:26 how is it any different than normal trading? 2012-03-21T12:38:04 if i can i want to work at optiver 2012-03-21T12:38:08 they have a nice dress code 2012-03-21T12:38:08 antimatroid: because i am not allowed to do it. Normal brokerage accounts don't work like a hft one does 2012-03-21T12:38:14 i'm not kidding either, i care that much about dress code 2012-03-21T12:38:46 yes, but that's an issue with the current laws 2012-03-21T12:38:48 not hft itself 2012-03-21T12:39:00 or algo trading 2012-03-21T12:39:08 its a problem with a lot of the current finance sector 2012-03-21T12:39:14 personally i'd be more interested in playing with the strategic aspects rather than minimising speed 2012-03-21T12:39:18 special privileges 2012-03-21T12:39:37 even for things like short selling 2012-03-21T12:40:16 hell even the current banking system... banks other than the central bank have special privileges 2012-03-21T12:40:27 they shouldn't 2012-03-21T12:41:07 yeah, but the issue here is with the regulations and not the banks 2012-03-21T12:41:11 antimatroid: I dont have a direct problem with hft other than the potential to really make a market volatile in principal 2012-03-21T12:41:37 hate the game, not the player as they say :P 2012-03-21T12:42:01 but currently it is just a crony thing... like i said in the US they even rolled back a whole bunch of trades when i cost one of these groups a lot of cash 2012-03-21T12:42:39 yeah i don't doubt some aspects of it are shady 2012-03-21T12:43:13 I also have a hard time believing that you get any real benefit with less than 1 sec liquidity 2012-03-21T12:43:41 the less spread argument is BS since that is where a HFT tries to win... other traders don't see that 2012-03-21T12:44:22 delt0r: pls enlighten me, if all these hft firms are profitable, where comes that money? usual stocks? 2012-03-21T12:45:57 mcstar: in speculative trading -aka the share market. It is zero sum. So someone else losses money if someone makes money.. 2012-03-21T12:46:19 this is of course not true for stocks with dividends 2012-03-21T12:46:28 but that is pretty rare these days 2012-03-21T12:46:47 if you don't pay dividends wouldn't that just increase the value of the company and hence it's stock price? 2012-03-21T12:46:53 its* 2012-03-21T12:47:12 antimatroid: depends what is done with the casj 2012-03-21T12:47:14 cash 2012-03-21T12:47:15 (I don't know that much about finance, that's the plan over the next 3 years, doing measure and probability this semester) 2012-03-21T12:47:30 *** X-Scale has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2012-03-21T12:47:31 either way stock trading in this case *is* zero sum 2012-03-21T12:47:33 well, background plan 2012-03-21T12:47:42 how is this case different? 2012-03-21T12:47:44 delt0r: i dotn think you get my question, im interested where that exact money comes from, which these firms profit, whose loss is that? 2012-03-21T12:48:00 mcstar: other traders 2012-03-21T12:48:08 exactly like them? 2012-03-21T12:48:11 if hft is zero sum isn't every other aspect of trading? 2012-03-21T12:48:24 mcstar: mostly from the plain old traders... say like me 2012-03-21T12:48:41 delt0r: so hft is not closed over profit/loss lol 2012-03-21T12:48:41 and if people want to willingly partake in a zero sum game with each other, i don't see the problem, it's like betting 2012-03-21T12:48:43 ok 2012-03-21T12:48:58 antimatroid: on stock markets over short term... long term (years) economies are not zero sum 2012-03-21T12:49:14 so you don't like anyone trading short term? 2012-03-21T12:49:16 :P 2012-03-21T12:49:26 but yes... other trading is zero sum if the sole idea is that you can sell for more later 2012-03-21T12:49:34 rather than it has utility 2012-03-21T12:49:42 antimatroid: no 2012-03-21T12:49:58 but HFT is not making more money than any other form of speculative trading 2012-03-21T12:50:11 it doesn;t incresse the GDP 2012-03-21T12:50:24 its not productivity 2012-03-21T12:50:47 i dont get that either 2012-03-21T12:51:10 i mean a country can only increase its GDP at the loss of others' right? 2012-03-21T12:51:18 speculative trading just moves money around... from one set of traders to the other set 2012-03-21T12:51:30 mcstar: no that is not what i said 2012-03-21T12:51:37 delt0r: i am asking 2012-03-21T12:51:44 a full economy is not zero su, 2012-03-21T12:51:45 sum 2012-03-21T12:51:58 aka dig gold out of the ground 2012-03-21T12:52:05 milk a cow 2012-03-21T12:52:10 and that gold can be many things 2012-03-21T12:52:22 gains to trade etc. 2012-03-21T12:52:25 either way it is not zero sum at that point 2012-03-21T12:52:49 *** epicmonkey has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2012-03-21T12:52:53 but trading on what you think something will be worth is different entirely. 2012-03-21T12:53:02 i still dont see how can pour true value into an economy other than natural resources 2012-03-21T12:53:19 can sy* 2012-03-21T12:53:19 mcstar: you can't really 2012-03-21T12:53:41 primary production... 2012-03-21T12:53:55 you can increase how efficiently you use those natural resources i guess 2012-03-21T12:54:04 its why Aussie is don't so well. F ton of mining 2012-03-21T12:54:06 mcstar: go read about comparative advantage and benefits to trade 2012-03-21T12:54:18 it's basically akin to why you don't produce everything you consume for yourself 2012-03-21T12:54:32 starting with opportunity cost 2012-03-21T12:55:15 fucking time 2012-03-21T12:55:21 when i talk about zero sum, i am talking about speculative markets in particular. 2012-03-21T12:55:26 also gdp is a fairly rough way to look at output or whatever 2012-03-21T12:55:38 if you blow a city up and rebuild it gdp rises 2012-03-21T12:55:48 antimatroid: every economic indicator is pretty rough 2012-03-21T12:55:54 yep 2012-03-21T12:56:03 that's the problem with such a complex system 2012-03-21T12:56:19 macroeconomics confuses the hell out of me 2012-03-21T12:56:36 micro i can handle 2012-03-21T12:57:04 *** loglog has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2012-03-21T12:57:16 *** loglog has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T13:00:46 mcstar: http://web.mit.edu/krugman/www/ricardo.htm that seems good 2012-03-21T13:00:49 from krugman 2012-03-21T13:01:18 antimatroid: i said fucking time 2012-03-21T13:01:23 i know :P 2012-03-21T13:01:31 but if one was to read anything then i'd suggest that 2012-03-21T13:01:34 means i have no fucking time for anything :( 2012-03-21T13:01:38 k 2012-03-21T13:02:33 i might read it in the next 5-10 years, back to physics 2012-03-21T13:03:05 "Take ignorance seriously: I am convinced that many economists, when they try to argue in favor of free trade, make the mistake of overestimating both their opponents and their audience. They cannot believe that famous intellectuals who write and speak often about world trade could be entirely ignorant of the most basic ideas. But they are -- and so are their readers. This makes the task of explaining the benefits of tr 2012-03-21T13:03:06 ehehehe 2012-03-21T13:03:36 i think he means against free trade though? 2012-03-21T13:03:58 no 2012-03-21T13:04:00 derp 2012-03-21T13:04:37 in physics we like to be ignorant, it gives us statistical mechanics 2012-03-21T13:04:51 but youve got to be clever to use it 2012-03-21T13:07:17 anyway, i should get some sleep 2012-03-21T13:07:22 have to take a tute in 6 hours 2012-03-21T13:12:23 *** X-Scale has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T13:12:45 *** X-Scale is now known as Guest14172 2012-03-21T13:47:05 *** smiley1983 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2012-03-21T13:47:38 *** smiley1983 has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T13:55:29 ill try to put back together the pieces of my life 2012-03-21T13:55:37 but i can only do that offline 2012-03-21T13:55:56 i hope i wont be coming back for a long time 2012-03-21T13:55:57 gl 2012-03-21T13:56:00 *** mcstar has quit IRC (Quit: mcstar) 2012-03-21T14:12:57 *** mleise has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T14:13:28 what's up? how is the next context preparation going? 2012-03-21T14:14:09 :7 2012-03-21T14:14:32 mleise: its not 2012-03-21T14:14:48 see above (or the logs) 2012-03-21T14:15:20 I was offline for a a while. tl:dr - no more contests? 2012-03-21T14:15:48 well we need to wait till some legal stuff is sorted out with Jeff 2012-03-21T14:16:01 *** epicmonkey has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T14:16:09 otherwise we would be more or less wasting out time.. 2012-03-21T14:16:25 this was today btw, a few hours ago 2012-03-21T14:16:37 the link to the logs seems broken 2012-03-21T14:16:56 or rather ... the channel is not listed on that page 2012-03-21T14:18:13 try http://contestbot.hypertriangle.com/channellogs/%23aichallenge/ 2012-03-21T14:18:30 thx janzert 2012-03-21T14:19:14 * Zannick reads scrollback 2012-03-21T14:20:06 ...yeah... 2012-03-21T14:21:09 Jeff was part of the three-people-group needed for an organization by law, right? 2012-03-21T14:22:42 how did the programming language debate slip into the discussion again ? :p 2012-03-21T14:23:34 in the long run, we probably want to have the org not relying on jeff being around 2012-03-21T14:23:59 particularly he should not be the money guy if he's going to be unresponsive 2012-03-21T14:24:13 indeed 2012-03-21T14:24:20 as for doing more rewrites... 2012-03-21T14:24:54 getting a contest going while other people work on rewrites was the plan for ants 2012-03-21T14:25:00 that fell apart pretty fast 2012-03-21T14:25:32 There was not enough man power to do both 2012-03-21T14:25:52 Or at least the motivation to work on Zeta seemed rather low ;) 2012-03-21T14:26:50 it was myself and jbroman for a bit, then we got sidetracked with non-aichallenge things 2012-03-21T14:26:53 :) 2012-03-21T14:27:08 What do you think about the idea to move to New Zealand or other country where the laws on organizations are lax? 2012-03-21T14:27:31 we'd probably need a representative there, wouldn't we? 2012-03-21T14:27:56 Yes... someone with a long term commitment to the AI challenge 2012-03-21T14:28:27 delt0r: ? 2012-03-21T14:29:07 lol 2012-03-21T14:29:12 I live in Autria 2012-03-21T14:29:15 Austria 2012-03-21T14:29:23 On the other hand, it could be an organization in a different country every year :D, like soccer 2012-03-21T14:29:49 delt0r: sorry, I thought you spoke german, but you were so informed about NZ law that I placed you there 2012-03-21T14:30:00 I am from NZ 2012-03-21T14:30:13 I may end up back there this year yet 2012-03-21T14:30:14 ah, now i get it 2012-03-21T14:30:38 personally i would prefer we not need to handle any money at all ;) 2012-03-21T14:30:44 but that is pretty tough 2012-03-21T14:30:53 Also i was involved with a few clubs--so i am familiar with the requirements 2012-03-21T14:31:04 since we need so many cpus 2012-03-21T14:31:27 Zannick: People want to donate. And yea, cpu time is hard to get without cash 2012-03-21T14:31:36 Yeah, we have grown quite a bit. Look at Wikipedia to see where this ends: millions of donations 2012-03-21T14:31:49 ...hopefully 2012-03-21T14:32:18 sorry going to the pub 2012-03-21T14:32:19 people want to donate because we frequently don't have enough cpu 2012-03-21T14:32:19 later 2012-03-21T14:32:45 fortunately if the servers run slowly, some people come up and want to donate servers 2012-03-21T14:33:03 Zannick: yeah, that 2012-03-21T14:33:41 Can we run the contest on distributed computers like SETI? 2012-03-21T14:33:54 we very much should not 2012-03-21T14:34:41 yeah people will look at the source code :( 2012-03-21T14:35:04 aside from the security issues associated with running arbitrary code on people's computers, we kind of rely on having a mostly level processing field 2012-03-21T14:35:59 It could work if our contest was entirely different and ran psudo-code in a virtual machine or something 2012-03-21T14:36:04 seti has neither of those problems because the org itself writes the code, and the goal is simply computation, not purely level computation 2012-03-21T14:36:52 we do run in a virtual machine, actually 2012-03-21T14:37:14 oh the sandbox? 2012-03-21T14:37:33 yeah 2012-03-21T14:38:53 theoretically, with a profiler you could track the CPU time, right? 2012-03-21T14:39:38 and you get the CPU clock speed from somewhere else and then you have a ballpark figure :) 2012-03-21T14:41:10 i think it would be awesome if we had a cluster of gpus to run on 2012-03-21T14:41:10 and if the sandbox files were inaccessible from the host system, the source code would be protected from access 2012-03-21T14:41:36 that's a pretty big if 2012-03-21T14:42:17 :( GPUs is also a pretty big if, with all the compilers producing X86 code 2012-03-21T14:42:44 Other than C code? Is there anything that compiles to GPU instructions? 2012-03-21T14:43:19 i don't actually know 2012-03-21T14:43:30 it is just one of those absurd awesome dreams to have 2012-03-21T14:44:08 Sure, but GPUs - while good at parallelization - may not be flexible enough to keep up with CPUs on arbitrary code 2012-03-21T14:45:07 also I think you have to paralellize *inside* one program, not several programs. ultimately the code becomes something like a pixel shader 2012-03-21T14:46:42 I was quite seriously thinking about running the contest on everbodys PCs. If we started from scratch and didn't want to take any money in the hand, we would probably discuss this. 2012-03-21T14:48:02 my answer is no. 2012-03-21T14:48:15 a) sandboxing multiple architectures. 2012-03-21T14:49:14 b) running other people's unvetted code on other people's machines. even with their permission, that is really scary. 2012-03-21T14:49:31 - inside a sandbox VM right? 2012-03-21T14:49:45 * Zannick points back to a 2012-03-21T14:49:57 so there really is only a) 2012-03-21T14:50:05 now we have to support multiple sandboxes, and they have to be airtight 2012-03-21T14:50:22 like ... Google Native Client 2012-03-21T14:50:41 c) even if we only pass binary blobs, people can still grab those and essentially copy code 2012-03-21T14:50:51 we do not have the developer resources NaCl has 2012-03-21T14:50:59 *** sevikkk has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds) 2012-03-21T14:51:13 NaCl runs the code natively. that was a bad comparison by me 2012-03-21T14:51:33 now, writing this as an app for NaCl might be interesting, but i'd still be worried about b and c 2012-03-21T14:51:34 a VM should be safe by definition 2012-03-21T14:51:41 *** sevikkk has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T14:52:01 theory and practice are two very different things 2012-03-21T14:52:05 c): The VM downloads encrypted files 2012-03-21T14:52:12 and runs what? 2012-03-21T14:52:24 and those are never stored on disk, but in a RAM file system inside the VM 2012-03-21T14:52:29 and knows how to decrypt what? 2012-03-21T14:52:34 with what? * 2012-03-21T14:52:46 right, knows how to decrypt the files to .py, .exe ... 2012-03-21T14:53:29 assume a very savvy person with access to all data the VM processes 2012-03-21T14:53:50 oh 2012-03-21T14:54:42 d) since we like to open source everything, someone could take the information sent to the machine we assume is running the VM, have full access to whatever we send, encrypted or not, and forge their own results 2012-03-21T14:55:42 even if we don't open source it, that's still possible 2012-03-21T14:55:44 ok, I give up. I would need to be a network security expert to counter that compelling argument, if there was a counter argument 2012-03-21T14:55:45 maybe a little harder 2012-03-21T14:56:17 i know there are mechanisms to determine trustability of a computer 2012-03-21T14:56:42 but that would be really difficult with the amount of players we have 2012-03-21T14:57:08 because they could implement a fully working version that only forges when they're in the game 2012-03-21T14:57:31 For 1 on 1 TCP matches I think both players could run a server and validate each others game states. 2012-03-21T14:59:04 tcp servers have a server running the game, and the clients send it moves 2012-03-21T14:59:58 I know, that was just an idea for when people want to just play each other or when TCP servers are down 2012-03-21T15:00:15 a peer-to-peer connection 2012-03-21T15:00:15 there's no worry about forged results since everyone runs only their code 2012-03-21T15:00:25 ah, p2p aichallenge 2012-03-21T15:00:28 that would be interesting 2012-03-21T15:01:11 you know... just keep em busy while the few server capacities run the real contest 2012-03-21T15:01:24 *** kilae has quit IRC (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.1 [Firefox 11.0/20120312181643]) 2012-03-21T15:02:02 Maybe people care less about slow ranking updates, when they have several other options to test their bots 2012-03-21T15:02:46 *** g0llum has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T15:03:04 i like the idea of p2p games 2012-03-21T15:03:06 P2P could have the negative effect of splitting up the contest into little groups though. 2012-03-21T15:03:25 ranks/scores would still require a central authority 2012-03-21T15:03:26 but I'm with you on that 2012-03-21T15:04:52 with the TCP servers it is impossible to choose your opponent and get comparable results on each run 2012-03-21T15:06:20 *** mceier has quit IRC (Quit: leaving) 2012-03-21T15:06:46 A little chat window could also help. So you can tell your peer, when you change the bot's code. 2012-03-21T15:06:51 *** mceier has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T15:07:53 And you could always do something like: "Let's compare our bots from 2 contests ago." No infrastructure needed 2012-03-21T15:09:35 Especially Accoun keeps asking for some means to still play Ants against others 2012-03-21T15:10:27 *** smiley1983 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2012-03-21T15:11:15 *** smiley1983 has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T15:14:06 *** coeus has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T15:15:05 i'll see what's on the tube 2012-03-21T15:15:32 (I don't have a flat screen, I can still call it a tube) 2012-03-21T15:17:09 Should fetch a good price in the antiquariat 2012-03-21T15:26:12 *** Accoun has quit IRC () 2012-03-21T15:31:41 *** litejk has joined #aichallenge 2012-03-21T15:31:45 *** litejk has left #aichallenge ("67 AI Challenge (sponsored by Google): http://aichallenge.org || Channel Logs: http://contestbot.aichallenge.org || Code Repo: http://github.com/aichallenge/aichallenge || Congratulations to xathis. 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