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2012-04-05T02:10:00  <thestinger> mcstar is never here anymore :(
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2012-04-05T02:55:55  <antimatroid> thestinger: he said he was going away for a while to organise things
2012-04-05T02:55:58  <antimatroid> @last seen mcstar
2012-04-05T02:55:58  <contestbot> antimatroid: (last [--{from,in,on,with,without,regexp} <value>] [--nolimit]) -- Returns the last message matching the given criteria. --from requires a nick from whom the message came; --in requires a channel the message was sent to; --on requires a network the message was sent on; --with requires some string that had to be in the message; --regexp requires a regular expression the message must match; (1 more message)
2012-04-05T02:56:10  <antimatroid> @last from mcstar
2012-04-05T02:56:10  <contestbot> antimatroid: (last [--{from,in,on,with,without,regexp} <value>] [--nolimit]) -- Returns the last message matching the given criteria. --from requires a nick from whom the message came; --in requires a channel the message was sent to; --on requires a network the message was sent on; --with requires some string that had to be in the message; --regexp requires a regular expression the message must match; (1 more message)
2012-04-05T02:56:15  <thestinger> @seen mcstar
2012-04-05T02:56:15  <contestbot> thestinger: mcstar was last seen in #aichallenge 2 weeks, 0 days, 13 hours, and 17 seconds ago: <mcstar> gl
2012-04-05T02:56:18  <thestinger> :0
2012-04-05T02:56:33  <antimatroid> damn, if you can find the logs it has a better explanation
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2012-04-05T04:42:59  <smiley1983> In asteroids, if you shoot a friendly ship, what should happen to your score? Lose a point? Nothing? Currently you get a point for shooting someone, friend or enemy, but it doesn't quite seem right. :)
2012-04-05T04:44:04  <smiley1983> For that matter, does anyone have opinions about how score should be handled in Asteroids if there are multiple ships per player?
2012-04-05T04:44:32  <smiley1983> Are you aiming to have the last ship alive, to kill the most, to destroy the most asteroids?
2012-04-05T04:50:31  <aerique> i'd say either no point or deduct a point when shooting a friendly ship
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2012-04-05T04:52:25  <aerique> my personal preference is just killing the enemy, but others have indicated to be more interested in destroying asteroids (my preference would turn it in yet another straight-forward shooter, so there's something to say against that)
2012-04-05T04:53:27  <aerique> one could also score both (killing / shooting an enemy and destroying asteroids) and see what strategies will emerge to become the top bot
2012-04-05T04:53:54  <aerique> smiley1983: i like the work you've done btw on the server
2012-04-05T04:58:33  <smiley1983> aerique: thankyou, there is still more to do of course :)
2012-04-05T05:02:02  <smiley1983> Apart from some bugfixes, I'm thinking that delt0r is right about the need for a speed cap (currently the bots running on tcp limit their own speed voluntarily)
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2012-04-05T05:38:11  <antimatroid> i like the idea of wanting to clear the asteroids and kill enemies
2012-04-05T05:38:44  <antimatroid> would anyway oppose the statement "killing an enemy should be worth more than killing an asteroid"?
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2012-04-05T06:04:12  <smiley1983> antimatroid: I also like the idea of giving the players an incentive to break asteroids for its own sake
2012-04-05T06:04:47  <smiley1983> currently my MCbot doesn't like to break the asteroids too much, because it mostly just cares about its own survival
2012-04-05T06:04:54  <smiley1983> makes the games boring to watch
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2012-04-05T06:41:13  <aerique> mmm... http://94.26.36.43/bwapi_bot_automation_central_server/bots_stats.php (Starcraft bots)
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2012-04-05T06:57:28  <antimatroid> smiley1983: i watched those monte carlo games you linked, looked promising imo
2012-04-05T06:57:33  <antimatroid> as something interesting to watch
2012-04-05T06:57:44  <antimatroid> personally i'm way more interested in asteroids than risk
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2012-04-05T07:00:06  <smiley1983> the better games are certainly okay to watch, so smarter AI will produce a better ratio of interesting games.
2012-04-05T07:00:31  <smiley1983> Of the recent ones, I think this one is pretty good: http://50.116.32.118:2086/replay.1283
2012-04-05T07:02:15  <antimatroid> yeah looks cool
2012-04-05T07:02:17  <antimatroid> did you write that bot?
2012-04-05T07:02:30  <smiley1983> yes
2012-04-05T07:02:36  <antimatroid> my intentions would be to try and throw some numerical calculus of variations at it
2012-04-05T07:02:44  <antimatroid> but i haven't played around yet
2012-04-05T07:02:55  <antimatroid> it looks like maths will be much more useful though
2012-04-05T07:03:10  <antimatroid> that might be a downside
2012-04-05T07:03:17  <antimatroid> beginners need to be able to compete
2012-04-05T07:03:27  <antimatroid> not necessarily at the top, but not be out of things to do within a week
2012-04-05T07:05:13  <smiley1983> yes, that was my concern - entry bar may be too high
2012-04-05T07:05:21  <smiley1983> risk doesn't have that problem
2012-04-05T07:05:29  <antimatroid> i think risk will be boring to watch
2012-04-05T07:05:33  <smiley1983> but I also see that risk is not as exciting to watch :)
2012-04-05T07:05:35  <antimatroid> especially if like me you haven't played the board game
2012-04-05T07:05:55  <antimatroid> but that's just my opinion :)
2012-04-05T07:06:04  <smiley1983> yes, I just played one tutorial game of warlight and read the wiki for making the engine
2012-04-05T07:06:12  <antimatroid> if i'm the 1% i think it'd be good
2012-04-05T07:06:21  <antimatroid> but if lots of people are like me maybe it's not so good
2012-04-05T07:06:53  <smiley1983> I think the things I like about it relate to its similarity to planet wars
2012-04-05T07:07:08  <antimatroid> planet wars was tough
2012-04-05T07:07:16  <antimatroid> asteroids has the "something new" feature
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2012-04-05T07:10:01  <smiley1983> One variation which might make it more accessible to beginners would be to make asteroids non-fatal; they just bounce you around, so flying blindly isn't suicide
2012-04-05T07:10:10  <smiley1983> but you still get benefit from flying intelligently
2012-04-05T07:10:17  <aerique> Did you guys ever read the README of my initial asteroids prototype and specifically the "Turn 0: Ship Config" chapter?
2012-04-05T07:10:52  <aerique> that would add some nice variables to the gameplay I think
2012-04-05T07:11:05  <antimatroid> smiley1983: what if hitting an asteroid split the asteroid (or removed the smallest) and deducted a point from you?
2012-04-05T07:11:16  <antimatroid> then your ship dies if hit by a bullet
2012-04-05T07:11:21  <aerique> https://github.com/aerique/aichallenge/tree/asteroids/asteroids
2012-04-05T07:11:47  <antimatroid> you would need to work out which direction the asteroids move off and speed using simple physics :P
2012-04-05T07:13:01  <smiley1983> aerique: just looked at it again, and indeed, it could add depth. Especially if you could configure your multiple ships differently.
2012-04-05T07:13:20  <smiley1983> antimatroid: that's a great idea, linking asteroid collisions to your score
2012-04-05T07:13:54  <antimatroid> i'm not sure now about what rule i'd use for direction and speed of smaller asteroids moving away
2012-04-05T07:14:00  <antimatroid> i'd alter the speed and direction of the ship too
2012-04-05T07:14:06  <antimatroid> but maybe that's getting too complicated again?
2012-04-05T07:14:12  <smiley1983> you'd have to assign them all a weight
2012-04-05T07:14:19  <smiley1983> mass, rather
2012-04-05T07:14:24  <antimatroid> yep
2012-04-05T07:14:35  <antimatroid> ships could be like 2-3 and asteroids 1-n or whatever
2012-04-05T07:14:37  <antimatroid> not too bad
2012-04-05T07:15:14  <smiley1983> I think it's okay for the physics to be a bit complex
2012-04-05T07:15:45  <smiley1983> there's also the question of how to determine the heading of broken asteroids; currently it's random
2012-04-05T07:16:18  <smiley1983> which is okay with me, but I prefer the idea of everything being deterministic
2012-04-05T07:16:54  <antimatroid> yeah i'm very against random
2012-04-05T07:17:04  <antimatroid> but again if i'm the 1% it's not such an issue
2012-04-05T07:17:13  <antimatroid> but in my experience other top competitors like chrish agreed
2012-04-05T07:17:59  <antimatroid> some more complex formulas are alright if what they are calculating is easily described with words and starter packages implement them
2012-04-05T07:18:03  <antimatroid> i think
2012-04-05T07:19:30  <smiley1983> I was thinking that providing all the physics functions in the starter package would be good, as well as a detailed description of how to connect those function into an accurate simulation
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2012-04-05T07:20:14  <antimatroid> yeah
2012-04-05T07:20:28  <antimatroid> a basic simulation for the starter bot strategy would be good
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2012-04-05T07:20:58  <antimatroid> a basic simulation for the starter bot strategy would be good
2012-04-05T07:21:06  <antimatroid> just said that not realising you left
2012-04-05T07:21:43  <aerique> asteroid breakup being deterministic could also lead to interesting strategies (and easier debugging)
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2012-04-05T07:22:54  <smiley1983> I also like the idea of the smallest asteroids being indestructible, and your bullets pushing them around
2012-04-05T07:23:04  <smiley1983> I know it's less asteroids-like though
2012-04-05T07:24:44  <antimatroid> super strong cores?
2012-04-05T07:24:52  <antimatroid> i think that would be pretty cool
2012-04-05T07:25:18  <antimatroid> you could make it so asteroids don;t break up but do have varying size/mass
2012-04-05T07:25:49  <antimatroid> the larger the asteroid the slower it's starting speed
2012-04-05T07:26:01  <antimatroid> its*
2012-04-05T07:26:24  <antimatroid> i think the shooting range could be longer too
2012-04-05T07:26:33  <antimatroid> like one screen length maybe?
2012-04-05T07:26:43  <antimatroid> or can't cross the edges?
2012-04-05T07:29:25  <smiley1983> I prefer one screen length
2012-04-05T07:30:17  <smiley1983> but indeed, the current bullet range is quite short
2012-04-05T07:31:24  <antimatroid> too complicated too allow bots to control the bullets?
2012-04-05T07:31:27  <antimatroid> to*
2012-04-05T07:31:29  <antimatroid> hehe :P
2012-04-05T07:32:16  <smiley1983> programmable missiles were discussed - they wouldn't be too hard to implement
2012-04-05T07:32:40  <smiley1983> just ships who can't shoot and are smaller
2012-04-05T07:33:03  <smiley1983> and have different collision consequences :)
2012-04-05T07:34:02  <antimatroid> no acceleration either perhaps?
2012-04-05T07:34:17  <antimatroid> ie you can just control the direction
2012-04-05T07:34:46  <antimatroid> and speed is spaceship speed + something or 1.somethin*ship_speed or something
2012-04-05T07:36:12  <smiley1983> do you mean that you could fire them in any direction, but then they are just bullets?
2012-04-05T07:36:17  <smiley1983> that could be interesting
2012-04-05T07:36:42  <antimatroid> no, you fire them, then you can control their direction but not their speed
2012-04-05T07:36:52  <antimatroid> ie. you can control the speed of your ship with acceleration
2012-04-05T07:37:46  <antimatroid> i'm not sure i understood how you move a ship?
2012-04-05T07:37:59  <antimatroid> you probably pick a direction and amount to shoot and thuster at yeah?
2012-04-05T07:38:05  <antimatroid> and accelerate off in the opposite direction?
2012-04-05T07:41:00  <smiley1983> yes
2012-04-05T07:41:20  <smiley1983> so the missile would have constant thrust?
2012-04-05T07:43:02  <smiley1983> the speed would change when the missile turns
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2012-04-05T07:54:00  <antimatroid> yep
2012-04-05T07:54:08  <antimatroid> so changing missiles intended course is costly
2012-04-05T07:54:09  <antimatroid> i like that
2012-04-05T07:54:26  <antimatroid> initial course*
2012-04-05T07:54:34  <antimatroid> intended could be very different i guess
2012-04-05T07:55:01  <antimatroid> i think a missiles life would have to be time dependent then
2012-04-05T07:55:05  <antimatroid> rather than distance
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2012-04-05T08:00:12  <smiley1983> yes, bullets also have time to live
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2012-04-05T09:29:32  <mleise> so I can start to write my asteroids AI now?
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2012-04-05T09:42:14  <smiley1983> mleise: I think the bot I/O is now fairly complete, as long as the game doesn't change
2012-04-05T09:43:25  <smiley1983> just note that the epsilon branch is out of date, this is the latest branch: https://github.com/smiley1983/aichallenge/tree/multi-ship-asteroids
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2012-04-05T09:47:21  <smiley1983> also, scoring will change; if you have suggestions for how, it'd be great to hear them (there was some discussion about it a short time ago)
2012-04-05T09:49:00  <mleise> wow, I was half-joking. i didn't expect any serious work to be going on for the game
2012-04-05T09:56:41  <rwest> smiley1983: how is the scoring done now?
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2012-04-05T12:21:40  <smiley1983> rwest: +1 point for shooting an enemy, -1 point for shooting a friend, -1 point for crashing into an asteroid
2012-04-05T12:23:59  <smiley1983> mleise1: the work I've done is in no way official, I've just filled out aerique's prototype a bit
2012-04-05T12:25:20  <smiley1983> tcp games here: http://50.116.32.118:2086/
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2012-04-05T12:27:41  <a1k0n> nice
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2012-04-05T12:31:54  <smiley1983> though I notice that it's still giving +1 for shooting a friend, maybe I need to restart the server
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2012-04-05T12:40:49  <rwest> replays are a bit choppy, probably going to need half turns or something to smooth them out
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2012-04-05T12:55:34  <smiley1983> I imagine that if it were to be used for a competition, the visualizer would need quite a lot of work
2012-04-05T12:56:54  <smiley1983> Currently the engine divides each turn into ten steps, maybe it would be possible to give some of those intermediate states to the replay
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2012-04-05T13:08:25  <antimatroid> smiley1983: it could smooth it out though?
2012-04-05T13:08:40  <antimatroid> i wouldn't be opposed to increasing the distance a should would currently travel per turn
2012-04-05T13:08:50  <antimatroid> as janzert has been querying, length of games is important
2012-04-05T13:08:55  <antimatroid> due to time constraints
2012-04-05T13:09:22  <antimatroid> i'm going camping in 6 hours :D
2012-04-05T13:09:30  <delt0r> a game viewer should be responsible for interpolation.
2012-04-05T13:09:49  <delt0r> it can do internal steps itself or just use say splines
2012-04-05T13:18:21  <antimatroid> splines are awesome
2012-04-05T13:18:32  <antimatroid> so messy though
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2012-04-05T13:27:33  <rwest> if it is chosen to be the game, I will work on the viewer
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2012-04-05T13:51:11  <smiley1983> antimatroid: I agree that the step size per turn could be increased, especially since thrust and turn are non-binary
2012-04-05T13:52:09  <smiley1983> Have fun camping :)
2012-04-05T13:52:21  <antimatroid> i'll still be awake for a little bit :)
2012-04-05T13:52:29  <antimatroid> i can sleep when i'm dead
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2012-04-05T13:55:50  <rwest> antimatroid: alright pdiddy
2012-04-05T13:55:55  <rwest> :)
2012-04-05T13:56:13  <rwest> man my google adwords campaign for my dropbox referral worked awesome
2012-04-05T13:57:32  <Zannick> ahahaha
2012-04-05T13:57:47  <rwest> $100 free credit put to good use
2012-04-05T13:57:55  <rwest> people actually search for dropbox.com
2012-04-05T13:58:01  <rwest> it had a 12% ctr
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2012-04-05T14:05:43  <a1k0n> hahah
2012-04-05T14:05:54  <a1k0n> google shut down my adsense for lack of content :(
2012-04-05T14:07:00  <antimatroid> question... :P
2012-04-05T14:07:01  <antimatroid> what types of demand functions will give a constant arc elasticity? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_elasticity_of_demand) Solving for the point-price case is a simple ode to get P(Q) = aQ^n
2012-04-05T14:09:06  <rwest> a1k0n: don't you work for google?
2012-04-05T14:09:37  <delt0r> antimatroid: economics beyond "more demand makes prices go up" is pretty much total bs
2012-04-05T14:09:56  <a1k0n> yes, the irony
2012-04-05T14:10:01  <delt0r> i mean you can't in fact measure price elasticity anyway
2012-04-05T14:10:41  <a1k0n> i signed up for adsense because googlers are encouraged to use google products.  i had a great user experience there.
2012-04-05T14:10:50  <rwest> Real Google Glasses: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t3TAOYXT840
2012-04-05T14:15:02  <antimatroid> delt0r: you can estimate it
2012-04-05T14:15:36  <rwest> a1k0n: I found the adwords interface to be a lil much actually, it seems like everything is just crammed in
2012-04-05T14:15:44  <antimatroid> it would the stupid not to attempt to mathematically model how economies work
2012-04-05T14:16:06  <antimatroid> or economics* to include micro :D
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2012-04-05T14:30:56  <delt0r> antimatroid: you can only estimate it if you believe the rest of the BS in the equation.
2012-04-05T14:31:27  <delt0r> unless you can model humans... you can't ... and why should you be able to?
2012-04-05T14:31:51  <antimatroid> just like biologists can't model animals right?
2012-04-05T14:32:02  <delt0r> depends at what level
2012-04-05T14:32:02  <antimatroid> i cbf with this now
2012-04-05T14:32:32  <delt0r> modeling the effects of alchole on the brain is easy(er).
2012-04-05T14:32:41  <delt0r> behavor... much harder
2012-04-05T14:32:58  <delt0r> collective behavior of humans.... harder still
2012-04-05T14:33:41  <delt0r> in fact we can't ... of course you can even make and argument that because we use models to predict behavior that then alters behavior.....
2012-04-05T14:33:48  <antimatroid> modelling the collective behaviour of ai bots might be easier
2012-04-05T14:33:55  <delt0r> much easier
2012-04-05T14:33:57  <antimatroid> which will be more relevant the more they're used for different things
2012-04-05T14:34:11  <antimatroid> but i think it would be silly not to attempt to model humans anyway
2012-04-05T14:34:16  <delt0r> of course we could argue that humans don't really have a I in there
2012-04-05T14:35:01  <antimatroid> that was me attempting to make an argument of future relevance of economic theory which you so clearly dislike :P
2012-04-05T14:35:20  <antimatroid> i am a mathematician, i don't care about application, i find economic theory interesting like i find abstract algebra interesting :P
2012-04-05T14:36:12  <delt0r> I did economics... I am more from the Austrian school... that is their is no real useful model in the pure mathematical sense
2012-04-05T14:36:20  <delt0r> there
2012-04-05T14:36:38  <antimatroid> we will forever argue over economics then
2012-04-05T14:36:58  <antimatroid> imo a model is better than no model
2012-04-05T14:37:11  <delt0r> history is at least on my side. We suck at it... and a single line formula? Please?
2012-04-05T14:37:16  <antimatroid> and mathematics can be as general as you like
2012-04-05T14:37:30  <delt0r> no a miss leading model is worse than no model
2012-04-05T14:37:55  <delt0r> antimatroid: i did my masters in Physics... i know how useful math is
2012-04-05T14:38:08  <antimatroid> i'm currently doing a phd in math :P
2012-04-05T14:38:16  <antimatroid> don't try pulling that on me
2012-04-05T14:38:25  <delt0r> My phd was in applied math
2012-04-05T14:38:42  <antimatroid> algebra <3
2012-04-05T14:38:49  <delt0r> I currently do math all day... for the lutz
2012-04-05T14:39:00  <antimatroid> don't we all :)
2012-04-05T14:39:03  <antimatroid> anyway this is stupid
2012-04-05T14:39:09  <delt0r> yea
2012-04-05T14:39:14  * delt0r gets coffee
2012-04-05T14:39:21  <antimatroid> :)
2012-04-05T14:39:42  * delt0r gets a beer
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2012-04-05T15:23:35  <antimatroid> http://www.reddit.com/r/shittyaskscience/comments/ru1xh/if_i_set_an_oven_to_350_degrees_to_cook_a_pie/
2012-04-05T15:23:40  <antimatroid> best subreddit
2012-04-05T15:25:40  <rwest> omg
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