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2012-04-13T06:17:50  <pairofdice> gah, python challenge #7, the image with the grayscale stripe
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2012-04-13T07:07:58  <thestinger> mcstar: have you done the week4 crypto programming assignment yet?
2012-04-13T07:08:02  <thestinger> I'm about to start it
2012-04-13T07:08:17  <thestinger> going to have to rewatch this video >.<
2012-04-13T07:08:22  <mcstar> im going crazy over haskell
2012-04-13T07:08:25  <mcstar> thats what im doing
2012-04-13T07:08:54  <dici> ^^
2012-04-13T07:08:55  <mcstar> astronomers keep wondering why space expands
2012-04-13T07:09:01  <mcstar> i know why
2012-04-13T07:09:09  <mcstar> because haskell leaks the damn space!!!!!!!!!
2012-04-13T07:09:43  <thestinger> silly laziness
2012-04-13T07:09:46  <mcstar> no
2012-04-13T07:09:52  <mcstar> its all strinct
2012-04-13T07:09:56  <mcstar> strict
2012-04-13T07:11:14  <mcstar> thestinger: week3 problem: for 10M elements: c++ 16%, F# 28%, HS: 77% used memory
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2012-04-13T07:11:29  <mcstar> i cant solve that effing problem in haskell
2012-04-13T07:11:31  <antimatroid> yay for c++
2012-04-13T07:11:37  <mcstar> antimatroid: shut up pls
2012-04-13T07:11:42  <antimatroid> :P
2012-04-13T07:11:45  <mcstar> just kidding, but pls do
2012-04-13T07:12:15  <thestinger> brb, need to eat something so my brain starts working
2012-04-13T07:12:26  <antimatroid> dinner sounds good
2012-04-13T07:12:32  <antimatroid> it's 9:11pm, never forget
2012-04-13T07:12:35  <mcstar> i just had breakfast
2012-04-13T07:12:38  <mcstar> 13:16
2012-04-13T07:13:01  <mcstar> when im focused on something, i forget to eat
2012-04-13T07:13:07  <antimatroid> mcstar: i went for a fun ride before :)
2012-04-13T07:13:18  <antimatroid> bailed trying to go over this log thing but didn't get hurt
2012-04-13T07:13:22  <mcstar> good for you, ill try to fit in some sports
2012-04-13T07:13:38  <antimatroid> i have my first (field) hockey game of the year sunday too :D
2012-04-13T07:13:49  <mcstar> break a leg
2012-04-13T07:13:56  <mcstar> (i hate to say that)
2012-04-13T07:14:11  <mcstar> so instead: have fun
2012-04-13T07:14:47  <mcstar> so effing idiotic saying, we have a similar in hunagrian: break a leg and an arm
2012-04-13T07:14:58  <mcstar> (sounds good when you say it, but it is idiotic)
2012-04-13T07:16:29  <pairofdice> Don't break a leg, or anything else
2012-04-13T07:18:35  <mcstar> yeah dont!
2012-04-13T07:18:42  <mcstar> i didnt mean to imply to break it
2012-04-13T07:18:49  <mcstar> i just wanted to wish you luck
2012-04-13T07:18:55  <mcstar> damn words
2012-04-13T07:19:14  <mcstar> pairofdice: did you break the code however?
2012-04-13T07:19:50  <pairofdice> Nope
2012-04-13T07:20:15  <pairofdice> Too short to make a meaningful attack on
2012-04-13T07:20:52  <antimatroid> i imagine it'd take a lot to break a leg anyway
2012-04-13T07:21:05  <antimatroid> snapped femur would not be fun
2012-04-13T07:21:54  <mcstar> if i were you, i would stay home, and sit in fron of the computer the whole day
2012-04-13T07:22:05  <mcstar> and talk to ppl who do dangerius things
2012-04-13T07:22:07  <pairofdice> I always get stuck at python challenge #7
2012-04-13T07:22:28  <pairofdice> Too lazy
2012-04-13T07:22:46  <mcstar> what is python challenge?
2012-04-13T07:23:37  <pairofdice> pythonchallenge.com
2012-04-13T07:25:04  <mcstar> it is too high a price to pay for that kind of challenge
2012-04-13T07:25:12  <antimatroid> mcstar: it's more fun to do the dangerous things
2012-04-13T07:25:25  <mcstar> antimatroid: it is fun enough to hear about them
2012-04-13T07:25:36  <antimatroid> neg
2012-04-13T07:25:40  <mcstar> XD
2012-04-13T07:27:29  <antimatroid> not that dangerous, but got this snap last saturday http://i.imgur.com/dKzr8.jpg
2012-04-13T07:27:34  <antimatroid> dune was like 6-7 feet high
2012-04-13T07:28:07  <mcstar> wtf
2012-04-13T07:28:11  <mcstar> is that you jumping?
2012-04-13T07:28:27  <mcstar> 'got' ok
2012-04-13T07:28:40  <mcstar> so who is that idiot?
2012-04-13T07:28:47  <antimatroid> it was a fly kick, but kicking leg isn't very straight
2012-04-13T07:28:55  <antimatroid> that's me :P
2012-04-13T07:29:01  <mcstar> oh sry
2012-04-13T07:29:10  <pairofdice> haha
2012-04-13T07:29:37  <mcstar> if you had not said its you, i would think it was fake
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2012-04-13T07:30:44  <antimatroid> why?
2012-04-13T07:31:02  <mcstar> why what? it looks totally incredible
2012-04-13T07:31:09  <pairofdice> Nothing in it looks fake
2012-04-13T07:31:15  <mcstar> i didnt think anyone would do that kind of thing
2012-04-13T07:31:18  <pairofdice> sand = soft
2012-04-13T07:31:22  <mcstar> lol
2012-04-13T07:31:25  <antimatroid> land and roll
2012-04-13T07:31:31  <antimatroid> first and only rule to jumping off things
2012-04-13T07:31:31  <mcstar> yeah soft, but from that height>?>>>>>???
2012-04-13T07:31:39  <mcstar> fuckme
2012-04-13T07:31:41  <antimatroid> i've jumped off a lot higher
2012-04-13T07:31:45  <antimatroid> well, not that much higher, but yeah
2012-04-13T07:31:46  <mcstar> first rule: dont fucking jump
2012-04-13T07:32:02  <mcstar> i broke my spine for jumping
2012-04-13T07:32:09  <mcstar> sad thing, i dont even remember my biggest jump
2012-04-13T07:32:12  <antimatroid> didn't you fall?
2012-04-13T07:32:21  <mcstar> well, jumped and fall i think
2012-04-13T07:32:42  <mcstar> yeah, it was vertical probably
2012-04-13T07:32:46  <antimatroid> the worst fall from a height i can think of was in primary school
2012-04-13T07:33:03  <antimatroid> only from monkey bars, but i tried a backwards waterfall one morning and over rotated straight onto my back
2012-04-13T07:33:30  <mcstar> when i was young, i did backflips on my bed
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2012-04-13T07:34:02  <mcstar> i didnt like when i hit my back, and couldnt breath
2012-04-13T07:34:05  <antimatroid> http://i.imgur.com/YuSnJ.jpg me flipping for you :P
2012-04-13T07:34:26  <antimatroid> was a front flip though
2012-04-13T07:34:29  <mcstar> i have that one already
2012-04-13T07:35:02  <mcstar> im saving those images btw
2012-04-13T07:35:09  <antimatroid> :P
2012-04-13T07:35:14  <mcstar> to show my friends what kind of crazies the internet hides
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2012-04-13T07:35:27  <antimatroid> /s/internet/australia
2012-04-13T07:35:47  <mcstar> ok
2012-04-13T07:35:49  <antimatroid> i've got one more for you then
2012-04-13T07:35:50  <mcstar> tha
2012-04-13T07:35:53  <mcstar> t
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2012-04-13T07:36:00  <antimatroid> http://i.imgur.com/asKkf.jpg
2012-04-13T07:36:10  <antimatroid> i'd love to base jump off that
2012-04-13T07:36:17  <mcstar> f i screamed
2012-04-13T07:36:29  <mcstar> dont paralize me with those pictures pls
2012-04-13T07:36:49  <antimatroid> have you got my 15m bridge splash?
2012-04-13T07:37:01  <mcstar> i remember some bridge
2012-04-13T07:37:05  <mcstar> probably yes
2012-04-13T07:37:25  <mcstar> wait, who is making the photos?
2012-04-13T07:37:32  <antimatroid> dunno, different people
2012-04-13T07:37:51  <mcstar> i wondered maybe you bring a shooting pole with you
2012-04-13T07:37:53  <mcstar> and mount the camera
2012-04-13T07:38:40  <antimatroid> haha nah
2012-04-13T07:38:50  <antimatroid> i don't carry a wallet around with me let alone a camera
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2012-04-13T07:39:47  <antimatroid> now you've got me looking at old photo's aha
2012-04-13T07:40:56  <mcstar> ah old photos, where you are still alive
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2012-04-13T07:41:07  <mcstar> now look at some new ones, where you arent
2012-04-13T07:41:22  <antimatroid> http://imgur.com/a/JWG55
2012-04-13T07:41:25  <mcstar> live fast and die young...
2012-04-13T07:41:31  <antimatroid> my shitty skating steeze :P
2012-04-13T07:41:41  <antimatroid> that'll do
2012-04-13T07:42:07  <mcstar> i watched a couple of skater videos on youtube
2012-04-13T07:42:16  <mcstar> needless to say, i was scratching the wall
2012-04-13T07:42:51  <pairofdice> live smart and die old
2012-04-13T07:42:54  <antimatroid> haha i saw a thread on reddit yesterday and people were bitching about skateboarders not wearing helmets
2012-04-13T07:42:56  <antimatroid> good luck with that one
2012-04-13T07:43:31  <pairofdice> head against concrete, head always loses
2012-04-13T07:43:53  <mcstar> XD
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2012-04-13T07:44:04  <mcstar> eat concrete!
2012-04-13T07:44:04  <antimatroid> yeah there's some nasty clips of pro skaters splitting their heads open from bounding off the ground
2012-04-13T07:44:09  <mcstar> and harden the fuck up
2012-04-13T07:44:11  <antimatroid> i ate concrete
2012-04-13T07:44:16  <mcstar> XD
2012-04-13T07:44:47  <antimatroid> i lost
2012-04-13T07:44:48  <antimatroid> http://i.imgur.com/LFZVk.jpg
2012-04-13T07:45:02  <antimatroid> i know mstar has seen that
2012-04-13T07:45:55  <mcstar> you have a mesmerising smile
2012-04-13T07:46:56  <antimatroid> more like "look at my tooth"
2012-04-13T07:51:04  <pairofdice> Taking ages to grade the courses
2012-04-13T07:53:29  <antimatroid> ergh don't remind me
2012-04-13T07:53:40  <antimatroid> i have to mark assignments sometime this weekend
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2012-04-13T09:37:16  <antimatroid> http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=ab1_1334253751
2012-04-13T09:37:24  <antimatroid> well that looks safe
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2012-04-13T09:41:15  <pairofdice> hah
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2012-04-13T09:54:41  <mcstar> animals
2012-04-13T09:55:53  <mcstar> antimatroid: why did i just saw?
2012-04-13T09:56:11  <mcstar> what kind of explosive was that?
2012-04-13T09:56:11  <pairofdice> BOOM!
2012-04-13T09:56:16  <pairofdice> Gas
2012-04-13T09:56:33  <mcstar> the barrels were open i guess
2012-04-13T09:56:37  <antimatroid> mcstar: http://www.reddit.com/r/videos/comments/s6nai/having_a_barrel_of_fun/
2012-04-13T09:56:40  <antimatroid> that's where i saw it
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2012-04-13T09:57:53  <mcstar> they went like 50 meters high
2012-04-13T09:59:10  <mcstar> anyway, great video
2012-04-13T09:59:12  <antimatroid> yeah, i wouldn't want to be within 100 metres of that
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2012-04-13T12:32:02  <mcstar> i cant make this use less space http://hpaste.org/66917
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2012-04-13T14:42:38  <mcstar> judy arrays are awesome
2012-04-13T14:45:39  <rwest> jsJudge Judy?
2012-04-13T14:45:44  <rwest> -js
2012-04-13T14:45:58  <mcstar> huh?
2012-04-13T14:46:02  <mcstar> i dont think so
2012-04-13T14:46:04  <rwest> you might not get that referrence, but whatever
2012-04-13T14:46:10  <mcstar> no i dont
2012-04-13T14:46:12  <mcstar> what is it?
2012-04-13T14:46:25  <rwest> http://www.judgejudy.com/
2012-04-13T14:46:32  <rwest> a bane on a US tv
2012-04-13T14:47:07  <mcstar> ouch, i dont know where to put my boner
2012-04-13T14:47:13  <rwest> lol
2012-04-13T14:47:23  <rwest> in a car door
2012-04-13T14:47:25  <rwest> and slam it
2012-04-13T14:48:09  <mcstar> i leave that to the experts
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2012-04-13T16:16:48  <lorill> smiley1983: i'm trying your multiship asteroid prototype
2012-04-13T16:17:06  <lorill> but for whatever reason, no bullets are fired
2012-04-13T16:19:16  <lorill> (forget this, i forgot a \n somewhere... shame on me)
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2012-04-13T16:43:34  <lorill> new ocaml starter bot : http://pastebin.com/NVPZ1w8V
2012-04-13T16:44:16  <lorill> if only to get rid of all those scanfs... parsing is clearer, faster, and probably easier to maintain.
2012-04-13T16:45:50  <mcstar> ocaml looks horrible
2012-04-13T16:46:01  <mcstar> you could flood a city with lets
2012-04-13T16:46:26  <mcstar> you know you can bind vars in a tuple, right?
2012-04-13T16:47:54  <lorill> yes, where would you use it ?
2012-04-13T16:49:08  <mcstar> instead of ands
2012-04-13T16:49:16  <mcstar> not that i have a problem with your code per say
2012-04-13T16:49:21  <lorill> if it's where i used "and" in the Input module, i'd rather keep one coerce by line
2012-04-13T16:49:26  <lorill> guessed right :)
2012-04-13T16:49:44  <lorill> you could. I'm still new to ocaml.
2012-04-13T16:49:54  <mcstar> im new to haskell :)
2012-04-13T16:50:25  <lorill> i like my side effects, and i'm not fond of the do notation myself.
2012-04-13T16:50:57  <mcstar> well, i wrote something in c++ in like 15 minutes
2012-04-13T16:51:09  <lorill> but yeah, I miss typeclasses. Not being able to print a basic int list directly sucks
2012-04-13T16:51:17  <mcstar> and took 2 days to bring the haskell one up to the same speed/space as the c++ one
2012-04-13T16:52:05  <mcstar> yeah, i was surprised, why i say uncleavasya's own list printer
2012-04-13T16:52:52  <thestinger> mcstar: the crypto programming assignment was actually pretty easy
2012-04-13T16:53:00  <thestinger> took 3 mins after I looked at a drawing of CBC
2012-04-13T16:53:15  <mcstar> it was easy allright
2012-04-13T16:53:24  <mcstar> now try to translate that to haskell
2012-04-13T16:53:29  <mcstar> and you run out of memry
2012-04-13T16:53:32  <thestinger> oh
2012-04-13T16:53:34  <thestinger> I meant the 4th
2012-04-13T16:53:35  <mcstar> it it is fast enought at all
2012-04-13T16:53:50  <mcstar> i havent got around to that yet
2012-04-13T16:54:12  <thestinger> I'm going to catch up today because I want to start 2 more udacity courses on the 16th
2012-04-13T16:54:13  <mcstar> (i mean i havent watched the videos even)
2012-04-13T16:54:19  <mcstar> lol
2012-04-13T16:54:28  <mcstar> you are a time-millionaire
2012-04-13T16:54:33  <thestinger> :P
2012-04-13T16:55:25  <mcstar> thestinger: http://hpaste.org/66929
2012-04-13T16:55:32  <mcstar> i dont think this is particularly trivial
2012-04-13T16:55:45  <mcstar> (uses unboxed vectors and judy arrays)
2012-04-13T16:55:51  <mcstar> (and ofc monadic)
2012-04-13T16:56:24  <mcstar> and you need the mersenne generator, cause it is fast
2012-04-13T16:56:29  <thestinger> radix trees!
2012-04-13T16:56:32  <thestinger> :P
2012-04-13T16:56:35  <mcstar> and you need to compile sha2 with sse2
2012-04-13T16:56:50  * thestinger still has to implement radix tries for fun
2012-04-13T16:57:20  <mcstar> is that for algo?
2012-04-13T16:57:41  <thestinger> no, just seems like a neat thing
2012-04-13T16:58:06  <thestinger> algo was just graph stuff and heaps + hash tables for week 5
2012-04-13T16:58:10  <thestinger> easiest week so far
2012-04-13T16:58:22  <thestinger> I liked week4 a lot because I learned a lot of graph theory stuff
2012-04-13T16:58:25  <thestinger> this week was... meh
2012-04-13T16:59:53  <thestinger> the programming assignment was pretty silly
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2012-04-13T17:03:27  <mcstar> thestinger: do you know how unordered_sets are implemented in c++?
2012-04-13T17:04:12  <thestinger> well, hash tables
2012-04-13T17:04:22  <thestinger> linked lists for buckets I think
2012-04-13T17:04:42  <thestinger> at least in libstdc++
2012-04-13T17:04:51  <thestinger> mcstar: it will be slower than std::set for small sets
2012-04-13T17:05:04  <thestinger> std::set is a balanced tree so I think it has 3 pointers as overhead per element
2012-04-13T17:05:28  <thestinger> and O(logn) lookup/insert/delete
2012-04-13T17:05:54  <thestinger> until n is big that will be fast as hell
2012-04-13T17:06:12  <thestinger> the point where hash tables become faster is probably at least 100k+ elements
2012-04-13T17:06:34  <thestinger> except for integers where a hash is easy
2012-04-13T17:06:45  <mcstar> you wouldnt believe what kind of overhead i suffered form hashtables in haskell
2012-04-13T17:06:54  <thestinger> hash tables suck in haskell :P
2012-04-13T17:07:03  <mcstar> not really
2012-04-13T17:07:05  <mcstar> i mean speedwise
2012-04-13T17:07:10  <thestinger> I know
2012-04-13T17:07:12  <thestinger> I meant speed
2012-04-13T17:07:21  <mcstar> they are ok speed wise
2012-04-13T17:07:27  <thestinger> #haskell will tell you to use IntMap or whatever
2012-04-13T17:07:27  <mcstar> but they took up too much space
2012-04-13T17:07:39  <mcstar> im on #haskell for a couple of days now
2012-04-13T17:08:01  <mcstar> i did some 'comprehensive' study
2012-04-13T17:08:07  <mcstar> maybe ill write it up
2012-04-13T17:08:10  <mcstar> i dont know
2012-04-13T17:09:56  <mcstar> thestinger: storing 10M 32byte long bytestrings in a hashtable/hashmap whatever took like 4-5GB memory
2012-04-13T17:10:24  <thestinger> mcstar: that's a bit ridiculous
2012-04-13T17:10:30  <mcstar> yeah
2012-04-13T17:10:31  <thestinger> the overhead shouldn't be that high at all
2012-04-13T17:10:56  <mcstar> that code, i showed, stores key(Word64) and index pairs(Int, 64bit)
2012-04-13T17:11:08  <mcstar> and the whole of the random numbers is in 1 single vector
2012-04-13T17:11:26  <mcstar> which i generate before sha hashing
2012-04-13T17:12:15  <thestinger> with ~10 million elements it should have  ~10 million buckets
2012-04-13T17:12:29  <thestinger> which should just be the overhead of a linked list with ~1 element each
2012-04-13T17:14:51  <mcstar> http://imgur.com/30wsF
2012-04-13T17:15:12  <mcstar> on this you see the red stripe, which is the random vector, with a correct size
2012-04-13T17:15:16  <mcstar> 32Mbytes
2012-04-13T17:15:32  <mcstar> the other stripes are for the Data.HashTable
2012-04-13T17:15:49  <mcstar> 16bytes / key-value pair
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2012-04-13T17:16:20  <mcstar> http://imgur.com/rTlgD
2012-04-13T17:16:45  <mcstar> now this is a bit better, with another mutable hashtable, from unordered-containers i think
2012-04-13T17:22:36  <mcstar> 'youre doing the thing, that thing we discussed, that i dont like, and start with an L, looming"
2012-04-13T17:22:43  <mcstar> wtf does this mean?
2012-04-13T17:23:17  <thestinger> who told you that? :\
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2012-04-13T17:25:11  <mcstar> its a line from Zodiac
2012-04-13T17:25:52  <thestinger> well... looming is sort of like lurking
2012-04-13T17:25:55  <thestinger> it's a silly line
2012-04-13T17:26:54  <mcstar> guy was following another one, talking to him, right till the desk of the other one
2012-04-13T17:27:01  <mcstar> kind of make him angry
2012-04-13T17:27:07  <mcstar> made*
2012-04-13T17:27:45  <mcstar> lurking
2012-04-13T17:27:46  <mcstar> hm
2012-04-13T17:27:53  <mcstar> i still dont get it
2012-04-13T17:28:19  <mcstar> i get that looming is like lurking, but i cant put this into context
2012-04-13T17:33:25  <mcstar> hm
2012-04-13T17:40:50  <thestinger> I think the unordered_ containers in libstdc++ are actually still a somewhat poor implementation
2012-04-13T17:41:06  <thestinger> compared to how well optimized everything else is
2012-04-13T17:41:53  <mcstar> are you lookign at the source?
2012-04-13T17:42:17  <thestinger> benchmarks
2012-04-13T17:42:25  <mcstar> yours?
2012-04-13T17:42:34  <thestinger> no, random ones via google :P
2012-04-13T17:42:45  <mcstar> vs. what?
2012-04-13T17:42:50  <mcstar> fortran?
2012-04-13T17:42:55  <mcstar> haha
2012-04-13T17:43:01  <mcstar> .net?
2012-04-13T17:43:04  <thestinger> std::set/map, CPython's hash table, etc.
2012-04-13T17:43:13  <thestinger> mcstar: no, other C or C++ implementations
2012-04-13T17:43:31  <mcstar> thestinger: try to dig up some .net Collections benchamrks
2012-04-13T17:44:00  <thestinger> they don't have the ruby/perl/python obsession with dicts though :P
2012-04-13T17:44:26  <thestinger> writing 'var' in the global scope in python is a dict lookup for "var"
2012-04-13T17:44:31  <thestinger> and objects are dicts
2012-04-13T17:44:33  <thestinger> etc.
2012-04-13T17:45:32  <thestinger> mcstar: the CPython benchmarks are using the type from C code
2012-04-13T17:45:40  <thestinger> to make it comparable to C++
2012-04-13T17:45:48  <thestinger> I think it's still doing refcounting though
2012-04-13T17:47:07  <thestinger> mcstar: gcc uses memory pools for objects under 64K so must of the java/C# propaganda about heap stuff is a lie :P
2012-04-13T17:47:46  <thestinger> meh
2012-04-13T17:47:51  <thestinger> so many visual studio benchmarks
2012-04-13T17:47:57  <mcstar> im not familiar with that propaganda
2012-04-13T17:48:24  <mcstar> anyway, even mono hash collection was at least as fast as unordered_map
2012-04-13T17:48:33  <mcstar> thats why i said look at .net
2012-04-13T17:48:36  <thestinger> ah
2012-04-13T17:48:52  <thestinger> btw make sure to use .find() for lookups
2012-04-13T17:48:57  <thestinger> operator[] is evil for maps
2012-04-13T17:49:17  <thestinger> works like python's defaultdict and adds the key and a default constructed value
2012-04-13T17:49:23  <thestinger> just by looking it up...
2012-04-13T17:49:38  <thestinger> and then returns a reference
2012-04-13T17:49:50  <thestinger> (well that's if it's not in there already)
2012-04-13T17:50:15  <mcstar> i always use find
2012-04-13T17:50:22  <mcstar> and insert
2012-04-13T17:50:43  <thestinger> sometimes the default insert is nice though
2012-04-13T17:50:45  <thestinger> like for counters
2012-04-13T17:50:51  <thestinger> I don't really understand why it's the default
2012-04-13T17:53:48  <thestinger> maybe I should just compare the libstdc++ implementation to the boost one
2012-04-13T17:55:31  <thestinger> I've been using so much crap from boost anyway
2012-04-13T17:56:59  <mcstar> for what?
2012-04-13T17:57:18  <mcstar> do you do real programming, aside from benchmarking, and homework assignments?
2012-04-13T17:57:50  <thestinger> mcstar: I code random things :P
2012-04-13T17:58:59  <thestinger> I should do something useful and contribute to some project
2012-04-13T17:59:34  <mcstar> yeah
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2012-04-13T17:59:49  <mcstar> i was thinking about that too actually
2012-04-13T18:00:10  <thestinger> I was going to write a new database backend for pacman but the codebase scared me off for now
2012-04-13T18:00:19  <mcstar> oh
2012-04-13T18:00:26  <mcstar> what doest it have now?
2012-04-13T18:00:30  <thestinger> flat files
2012-04-13T18:00:52  <mcstar> it just got digital signatures
2012-04-13T18:01:03  <thestinger> yeah, those are on the packages
2012-04-13T18:01:05  <mcstar> realatively young package manager
2012-04-13T18:01:23  <thestinger> you can look at the db in /var/lib/pacman
2012-04-13T18:01:32  <thestinger> the sync ones are now kept in tarballs now
2012-04-13T18:01:59  <thestinger> because reading from one file helps caching compared to 100000 files
2012-04-13T18:02:12  <thestinger> local database is still just extracted flat files
2012-04-13T18:02:14  <thestinger> plain text
2012-04-13T18:03:24  <thestinger> it would be 100x faster for trivial things like pacman -Si pkg with sqlite, and definitely a lot faster (5x-20x) for searches
2012-04-13T18:04:05  <mcstar> :( i just extracted extra.db into my home
2012-04-13T18:04:35  <thestinger> mcstar: tar tf extra.db to get a file list
2012-04-13T18:04:45  <mcstar> i thought its gonna be in a folder
2012-04-13T18:04:58  <mcstar> now i have to cherrypic and delete
2012-04-13T18:05:01  <mcstar> fuck
2012-04-13T18:05:04  <thestinger> noooo
2012-04-13T18:05:06  <thestinger> tar tf extra.db
2012-04-13T18:05:09  <thestinger> and pass that to rm -r
2012-04-13T18:05:26  <thestinger> well
2012-04-13T18:05:33  <thestinger> assuming you don't have dirs named the same as packages...
2012-04-13T18:05:48  <thestinger> they have version numbers in them
2012-04-13T18:05:49  <mcstar> package names has long  versio numbers
2012-04-13T18:06:00  <mcstar> damn, my engrish sucks
2012-04-13T18:06:46  <mcstar> i dont quite know xargs
2012-04-13T18:06:54  <mcstar> guess i have to learn it some day
2012-04-13T18:06:57  <mcstar> why not now
2012-04-13T18:07:15  <thestinger> or be lazy and use $()
2012-04-13T18:07:37  <thestinger> mcstar: `yes no | xargs'
2012-04-13T18:08:50  <mcstar> zile-2.4.7-1/desc
2012-04-13T18:09:08  <mcstar> i have  ti check tar to only list folders
2012-04-13T18:09:44  * thestinger would just me lazy and run dirname on them all and then sort -u
2012-04-13T18:09:49  <thestinger> s/me/be/
2012-04-13T18:16:02  <mcstar> with a bit of vim foo i have the dir names
2012-04-13T18:16:58  <mcstar> ah, my ~ is clean now
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2012-04-13T20:35:47  <cyphase> for anyone who doesn't know, GCJ 2012: http://code.google.com/codejam/
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2012-04-13T22:19:10  <_flag> Anyone here?
2012-04-13T22:19:30  <antimatroid> yeah
2012-04-13T22:20:17  <antimatroid> cyphase: you're in #aichallenge #math and I saw you on some game theory class channel the other day
2012-04-13T22:20:26  <antimatroid> expect to be berated with questions some time in the future :)
2012-04-13T22:21:11  <cyphase> antimatroid, what questions?
2012-04-13T22:21:30  <antimatroid> when i get stuck
2012-04-13T22:21:47  <cyphase> ah
2012-04-13T22:21:47  <antimatroid> i have a problem i want an "example" to break if you would be interested
2012-04-13T22:22:00  <antimatroid> it's for a symmetric finite normal form game, but requires some explanation to say the least
2012-04-13T22:22:23  <antimatroid> i assume you know what groups are?
2012-04-13T22:23:57  <cyphase> as in the algebraic structure?
2012-04-13T22:24:03  <antimatroid> yeah
2012-04-13T22:24:11  <cyphase> rusty, but yea
2012-04-13T22:24:58  <antimatroid> in very vague terms you can define various types of a symmetric game based on the structure of its automorphism group
2012-04-13T22:25:56  <antimatroid> i call a symmetry group of a game a subgroup of its automorphism group (which is a pretty horrible abuse of automorphism/symmetry since they're basically the same word)
2012-04-13T22:26:29  <antimatroid> do you know what a transtive and n-transtive subgroups of S_n (permutations on n numbers) are?
2012-04-13T22:26:56  <cyphase> no, you've lost me :)
2012-04-13T22:27:41  <antimatroid> well S_n is the only n-transitive subgroup of S_n since it has every permutation
2012-04-13T22:28:06  <antimatroid> a transitive subgroup is one that for each 1<=i,j<=n there exists a permutation mapping i to j, but not necessarily every permutation of the numbers
2012-04-13T22:28:28  <cyphase> no, you've really lost me
2012-04-13T22:28:34  <antimatroid> hmm :(
2012-04-13T22:28:35  <cyphase> lol
2012-04-13T22:28:39  <antimatroid> sorry :)
2012-04-13T22:28:40  <cyphase> not your fault
2012-04-13T22:29:23  <antimatroid> can i keep trying?
2012-04-13T22:30:14  <cyphase> you can, but i dont think you're gonna have any luck :D
2012-04-13T22:30:22  <antimatroid> say you have two games (N, (A_i), (u_i)) and (M, (B_i), (v_i)) are you okay with that?
2012-04-13T22:31:00  <antimatroid> N and M are player sets, A_i's and B_i's are strategy sets and u_i's and v_i's are utility/payoff functions
2012-04-13T22:31:11  <cyphase> alright
2012-04-13T22:31:53  <antimatroid> a bijection between the two games consists of a player bijections p:N->M and for each player i \in N a strategy set bijection t_i:A_i->B_p(i)
2012-04-13T22:32:03  <antimatroid> don't worry about what form they take
2012-04-13T22:32:57  <antimatroid> each of these bijections induces a bijection between the strategy profiles of the two games
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2012-04-13T22:33:55  <cyphase> alright..
2012-04-13T22:34:11  <antimatroid> if you take the set of bijections from a game to itself, the automorphisms are the bijections for which the utility to player i in the first game for a strategy profile is always equal to the mapped players utility for the mapped strategy profile.
2012-04-13T22:34:51  <_flag> Anyone here doing CodeJam?
2012-04-13T22:34:58  <cyphase> _flag, me
2012-04-13T22:35:07  <_flag> cyphase: Nice, how far are you?
2012-04-13T22:35:09  <cyphase> already qualified
2012-04-13T22:35:14  <cyphase> 40 points
2012-04-13T22:35:32  <cyphase> even if the two ungraded ones are wrong, which i highly doubt they are
2012-04-13T22:35:38  <_flag> ah
2012-04-13T22:35:56  <_flag> Wait, how did you get 40?
2012-04-13T22:35:57  <cyphase> antimatroid, go on, let's see if i understand enough for the next part
2012-04-13T22:36:06  <cyphase> _flag, both C's and A
2012-04-13T22:36:22  <_flag> Oh I see
2012-04-13T22:36:25  <antimatroid> well these automorphisms form a group for any game (obviously the identity bijection is always an automorphism)
2012-04-13T22:36:48  <antimatroid> in the weakest sense a game is symmetric if the automorphism group is player transitive
2012-04-13T22:36:52  <_flag> I'm stuck on problem 4 (I want to try to get all of them)
2012-04-13T22:36:53  <cyphase> obviously
2012-04-13T22:36:55  <cyphase> :D
2012-04-13T22:37:17  <antimatroid> which is to say for each i, j \in N there exists an automorphism which permutes player i to j
2012-04-13T22:37:26  <cyphase> (that wasn't for you _flag :) )
2012-04-13T22:37:45  <_flag> cyphase: Yeah, I realized that
2012-04-13T22:38:52  <cyphase> antimatroid, the scaffolding is getting shaky, but go on
2012-04-13T22:39:03  <antimatroid> i'm going to give you an example :)
2012-04-13T22:39:15  <cyphase> a.k.a. duct tape
2012-04-13T22:40:53  <antimatroid> http://pastebin.com/HiAT1PH7
2012-04-13T22:40:58  <antimatroid> that's a symmetric 3 player game
2012-04-13T22:41:15  <antimatroid> sorry, i'll put an automorphism on there too
2012-04-13T22:42:20  <antimatroid> http://pastebin.com/cmA4y3r3
2012-04-13T22:42:40  <antimatroid> basically you use the player permutation (123) and treat the strategies like they're already "in order"
2012-04-13T22:43:43  <antimatroid> ie. (a,d,e) would map to (a,c,f) since a->c, d->f and e->a
2012-04-13T22:44:10  <antimatroid> so you want u_i(a,d,e) = u_p(i)(a,c,f) for all players i
2012-04-13T22:45:28  <antimatroid> cyphase: now i have this diagram http://i.imgur.com/Q78CF.png
2012-04-13T22:45:42  <cyphase> u_i(a,d,e) = u_p(i)(a,c,f) meaning that it's a symmetric game?
2012-04-13T22:46:35  <antimatroid> the bijection is an automorphism if for each i \in N u_i(s) = u_p(i)(t(s)) for all strategy profiles s
2012-04-13T22:46:37  <antimatroid> that was just an example
2012-04-13T22:47:00  <_flag> antimatroid: did you ever receive a response from Jeff regarding Google wanting to see the top 100 contestants?
2012-04-13T22:47:14  <_flag> Or from Google?
2012-04-13T22:47:43  <antimatroid> _flag: nope
2012-04-13T22:47:52  <_flag> Okay, It's not just me then :(
2012-04-13T22:47:53  <antimatroid> i don't expect to tbh
2012-04-13T22:48:03  <antimatroid> i wouldn't worry too much
2012-04-13T22:48:31  <antimatroid> if you really want to work for google continue doing well in programming contests throughout uni and try to do a summer internship there or something
2012-04-13T22:48:43  <antimatroid> i doubt there's many like a1k0n at google (didn't finish uni)
2012-04-13T22:48:44  <cyphase> i think a clearer picture is forming. so if the bijection is an automorphism, what does that mean exactly?
2012-04-13T22:49:01  <antimatroid> it means that bijection preserves the strategic structure of the game
2012-04-13T22:49:03  <_flag> I didn't even send them anything though, it would make sense if they would contact me asking for information
2012-04-13T22:49:11  <antimatroid> you can define weaker notions of an isomorphism but this does for now
2012-04-13T22:49:14  <_flag> I just sent a reply to Jeff saying it would be okay to contact me
2012-04-13T22:49:47  <cyphase> antimatroid, alright.. why does that matter to your question/point?
2012-04-13T22:49:56  <_flag> I think he just never got around to informing Google who to contact or something
2012-04-13T22:50:05  <antimatroid> i told you, it takes me some time to get there :P
2012-04-13T22:50:13  <antimatroid> have you got that diagram up i linked?
2012-04-13T22:50:17  <cyphase> yea
2012-04-13T22:51:08  <antimatroid> a game is symmetric if it's automorphism group is transitive, it's automorphism group is player n-transitive if is has an automorphism for each player permutation/bijection (note there can exist more than one automorphism for each player permutation)
2012-04-13T22:51:29  <antimatroid> that is obviously a stricter notions of a game being symmetric (which turns out to be fairly unuseful)
2012-04-13T22:51:50  <antimatroid> then a game is standard symmetric if it has a player transitive and strategy trivial symmetry group (more definitions)
2012-04-13T22:52:47  <antimatroid> a symmetry group is strategy trivial if every automorphism that maps player i to itself (but not necessarily all players to themselves) has the identity bijection for it's strategy set
2012-04-13T22:53:03  <cyphase> lol
2012-04-13T22:53:09  <cyphase> that last batch is a bit much
2012-04-13T22:53:11  <cyphase> hold on
2012-04-13T22:53:13  <cyphase> brb
2012-04-13T22:53:21  <antimatroid> i'm just going to finish now, it's going to get worse yet :P
2012-04-13T22:53:30  <cyphase> hopefully i wont forget it all in the next 10 minutes :P
2012-04-13T22:54:50  <antimatroid> so i call a game fully symmetric if it has a player n-transitive and strategy trivial symmetry group
2012-04-13T22:55:13  <antimatroid> in a fully symmetric game, no matter what move each player makes their opponents are still playing a fully symmetric game with each other
2012-04-13T22:55:32  <antimatroid> the analogous statement doesn't hold for the other definitions i have for a symmetric game
2012-04-13T22:56:24  <antimatroid> now, i was kind of hoping if a game had a player n-transitive symmetry group and had a player transitive and strategy trivial symmetry group (standard symmetric) then it would have a player n-transitive and strategy trivial symmetry group (fully symmetric) unfortunately this is not the case
2012-04-13T22:56:33  <antimatroid> http://pastebin.com/6MJ16hXc
2012-04-13T22:56:57  <antimatroid> that game has an n-transitive automorphism group, is standard symmetric and is not fully symmetric (what a pita right!)
2012-04-13T22:57:57  <antimatroid> now that was all good and well, except there's this novel theorem that any fully symmetric game where each player only has two strategies has a pure strategy nash equilibrium
2012-04-13T22:58:59  <antimatroid> my problem is to show there exists a standard symmetric game with a player n-transitive automorphism group which is not fully symmetric and does not have a pure strategy nash equilibrium
2012-04-13T22:59:36  <antimatroid> but however i assign the numbers/payoffs/preferences in the above game there always exists a pure strategy nash equilibrium
2012-04-13T23:00:01  <antimatroid> so i'm looking for another/more examples of a standard non-fully symmetric game with a player n-transitive automorphism group
2012-04-13T23:00:04  <antimatroid> and that's my problem :S
2012-04-13T23:01:00  <antimatroid> either that or prove that the theorem generalises
2012-04-13T23:01:05  <_flag> Is this stuff all from this class: https://class.coursera.org/gametheory/auth/welcome ?
2012-04-13T23:01:07  <antimatroid> but i don't think it will
2012-04-13T23:01:21  <antimatroid> _flag: i imagine it's quite a bit more involved than what's covered in that class
2012-04-13T23:01:37  <antimatroid> this is a problem that popped up with my honours thesis research
2012-04-13T23:01:50  <antimatroid> i am planning to publish but would like to tie that up neatly first
2012-04-13T23:02:12  <antimatroid> the idea of symmetry groups isn't new although fairly unknown
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2012-04-13T23:02:37  <antimatroid> oh i forgot to say, the idea of a standard symmetric game can be simplified from that definition i gave above
2012-04-13T23:03:30  <antimatroid> basically a game is standard symmetric if you can match up the players strategy sets such that the induced automorphisms from a player transitive subgroup of S_N is a symmetry group
2012-04-13T23:03:47  <antimatroid> that probably sounds harder now that i've written it, but it's much easier, let me give the fully symmetric one
2012-04-13T23:04:33  <antimatroid> a game is fully symmetric if you can match up the players strategy sets such that the induced game bijection from each player permutation is an automorphism
2012-04-13T23:04:42  <antimatroid> iff* for both of those
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2012-04-13T23:06:35  <_flag> If that explaination is directed at me keep in mind I don't know what half the words you're using actually mean
2012-04-13T23:06:49  <_flag> So it's probably best not to bother trying to explain it :)
2012-04-13T23:06:49  <antimatroid> that was for cyphase
2012-04-13T23:06:52  <_flag> Okay
2012-04-13T23:06:54  <antimatroid> although i suspect it's going to lose him too
2012-04-13T23:07:06  <antimatroid> it took me a lot of playing around to work out a lot of this stuff
2012-04-13T23:07:32  <antimatroid> it took me months to find the one example i have talked about
2012-04-13T23:08:11  <antimatroid> i have a program that will take in game bijections and spit out the game that the subgroup generated by those as the automorphism group but even with that i still can't find another example
2012-04-13T23:08:41  <antimatroid> _flag: i still think maths is useful to do at uni :P
2012-04-13T23:08:43  <antimatroid> cough cough
2012-04-13T23:09:00  <antimatroid> it gives you a much larger toolbox to approach problems with
2012-04-13T23:09:11  <antimatroid> and abstraction has proved very powerful
2012-04-13T23:10:20  <_flag> antimatroid: I agree, I'm planning to go into math-heavy fields, but I'm not majoring in pure math
2012-04-13T23:10:32  <antimatroid> major in all the things
2012-04-13T23:10:32  <_flag> I'll try to take as much as I can though
2012-04-13T23:10:43  <_flag> Major in math, physics and compsci?
2012-04-13T23:10:53  <antimatroid> i didn't major in pure math for undergrad, i did lots of both pure and applied classes
2012-04-13T23:11:01  <antimatroid> i did cs, economics and maths
2012-04-13T23:11:24  <antimatroid> if the university will allow it it is possible, but i did a lot of overloads (i also did more units than necessary for all my majors so yeah)
2012-04-13T23:11:24  <_flag> Probably a lot of overlap there (although I guess that's true for my 3 as well)
2012-04-13T23:14:34  <cyphase> antimatroid, yea, you lost me
2012-04-13T23:15:05  <cyphase> maybe if i stared at it for an hour and did some research, i could get an idea
2012-04-13T23:15:21  <antimatroid> cyphase: "it's for a symmetric finite normal form game, but requires some explanation to say the least" I wasn't kidding :)
2012-04-13T23:15:37  <antimatroid> i think you'd need to write them down and play around with them
2012-04-13T23:15:44  <antimatroid> there's quite a lot to take in
2012-04-13T23:16:04  <antimatroid> even then i dunno if anyone else is likely to have more luck than i finding the game
2012-04-13T23:16:07  <cyphase> indeed
2012-04-13T23:16:10  <cyphase> it's a good goal
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2012-04-13T23:16:24  <cyphase> learn everything i need to know to understand everything you just said :D
2012-04-13T23:16:26  <antimatroid> i have a few other results anyway even if i don't get that
2012-04-13T23:16:47  <cyphase> what was your question btw? just for kicks :P
2012-04-13T23:17:36  <antimatroid> does there exists a standard symmetric game with a player n-transitive automorphism group which is not fully symmetric and does not have a pure strategy nash equilibrium?
2012-04-13T23:17:59  <antimatroid> or alternatively, prove that every such game has a pure strategy nash equilibrium
2012-04-13T23:18:22  <antimatroid> there is a proof to show that all fully symmetric games have a pure strategy nash equilibrium
2012-04-13T23:18:43  <antimatroid> as far as i can tell their approach no longer words though
2012-04-13T23:19:05  <antimatroid> because it depended on the matching of the players strategy sets such that each player permutation induces an automorphism
2012-04-13T23:19:15  <antimatroid> implicitly
2012-04-13T23:19:25  <antimatroid> they proved it without relabellings of strategies
2012-04-13T23:19:30  <antimatroid> just assumed all players have the same strategy set
2012-04-13T23:19:34  <antimatroid> which leads to...
2012-04-13T23:19:44  <antimatroid> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Symmetric_game#The_general_case
2012-04-13T23:19:48  <antimatroid> that definition is wrong :)
2012-04-13T23:20:01  <antimatroid> and it's written exactly the same in the paper it cites
2012-04-13T23:20:13  <antimatroid> and as far as i know nobody has ever called them out on it because quite a few other people have used it
2012-04-13T23:21:27  <cyphase> antimatroid, you said this is for your honours thesis? for what degree?
2012-04-13T23:21:35  <antimatroid> honours in maths
2012-04-13T23:21:43  <cyphase> phd?
2012-04-13T23:21:51  <antimatroid> i started that in january
2012-04-13T23:21:57  <antimatroid> i'm doing that on something else though
2012-04-13T23:22:00  <antimatroid> to do with diagram algebras
2012-04-13T23:22:21  <antimatroid> trying to find a presentation for a subsemigroup of the partition semigroup
2012-04-13T23:22:42  <antimatroid> or monoid if you want
2012-04-13T23:23:04  <antimatroid> the problem of symmetric games has bothered me for quite some time
2012-04-13T23:23:32  <antimatroid> it first bothered me in first year, people often say a 2x2 game is symmetric if the players payoff matrices are transposes
2012-04-13T23:23:51  <antimatroid> but that's only sufficient and not necessary if you consider the ordering of players strategy sets strategically unimportant
2012-04-13T23:24:12  <antimatroid> to consider relabellings you need to introduce game bijections
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2012-04-13T23:24:34  <antimatroid> and that isn't general enough anyway
2012-04-13T23:24:53  <antimatroid> most people think of fully symmetric games without relabellings as "symmetric"
2012-04-13T23:25:01  <antimatroid> but it's more rich than that
2012-04-13T23:25:40  <antimatroid> ie. matching pennies is an example of a non-standard symmetric game
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2012-04-13T23:26:06  <antimatroid> some people would say it is not a symmetric game, but it's obviously fair and essentially you want symmetric games to capture fair games right?
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2012-04-13T23:28:04  <cyphase> antimatroid, to much for me right now
2012-04-13T23:28:24  <cyphase> i already have enough work for subjects i have the prereqs for :P
2012-04-13T23:28:29  <cyphase> http://www.class-central.com/
2012-04-13T23:28:42  <antimatroid> i signed up for pgm but haven't found any time for it
2012-04-13T23:28:56  <antimatroid> i'm swamped this semester (i keep wanting to spell that symmester now)
2012-04-13T23:29:26  <antimatroid> i'm taking 4 tutes (weekly marking for one of them), doing 2 classes and have to find time for research
2012-04-13T23:29:34  <cyphase> there are lots of new classes about to start as well
2012-04-13T23:30:02  <antimatroid> cyphase: what are you studying and at what level?
2012-04-13T23:30:08  <cyphase> antimatroid, lol
2012-04-13T23:30:47  <cyphase> i'm not actually in uni
2012-04-13T23:31:01  <antimatroid> how old are you?
2012-04-13T23:31:15  <cyphase> 22 in june
2012-04-13T23:31:17  <antimatroid> i assumed you'd done an abstract algebra class before :P
2012-04-13T23:31:20  <antimatroid> sorry
2012-04-13T23:31:25  <cyphase> no, np
2012-04-13T23:31:39  <cyphase> i've been to community college, and learned on my own
2012-04-13T23:31:54  <antimatroid> algebra is the shit
2012-04-13T23:32:19  <antimatroid> http://www.extension.harvard.edu/open-learning-initiative/abstract-algebra
2012-04-13T23:32:21  <antimatroid> there's that
2012-04-13T23:32:44  <cyphase> i know :(
2012-04-13T23:32:46  <cyphase> too much
2012-04-13T23:32:47  <cyphase> lol
2012-04-13T23:33:02  <cyphase> there aren't enough hours in a day
2012-04-13T23:33:07  <antimatroid> i know
2012-04-13T23:33:10  <antimatroid> it sucks
2012-04-13T23:33:21  <antimatroid> i wish i could download the knowledge we have so i could play with what we don't know
2012-04-13T23:33:24  <antimatroid> it's too much fun
2012-04-13T23:33:26  <cyphase> lol
2012-04-13T23:33:57  <cyphase> "i know kung fu"
2012-04-13T23:34:06  <antimatroid> kung fuuu fighter
2012-04-13T23:34:11  <cyphase> how old are you?
2012-04-13T23:34:14  <antimatroid> 23
2012-04-13T23:35:08  <cyphase> and what are you planning to do with your symmetric gaming skills and whatnot? :P
2012-04-13T23:40:50  <antimatroid> have fun
2012-04-13T23:41:27  <antimatroid> i'm not entirely sure what i'm going to do yet, if i could just work at the uni here my whole life that'd be swell, but i don't like my chances
2012-04-13T23:41:44  <cyphase> where are you?
2012-04-13T23:41:54  <antimatroid> other options are try and become a professor and be poor, try and get into algo trading, learn more and try to go to google or dunno what else
2012-04-13T23:41:55  <antimatroid> tasmania
2012-04-13T23:41:55  <cyphase> i figure from 'honours' either england or australia
2012-04-13T23:42:00  <antimatroid> yeah australia
2012-04-13T23:42:12  <antimatroid> where are you?
2012-04-13T23:42:22  <cyphase> san francisco bay area
2012-04-13T23:42:28  <antimatroid> typical
2012-04-13T23:42:32  <cyphase> lol
2012-04-13T23:42:34  <cyphase> typical how?
2012-04-13T23:42:44  <antimatroid> lots of people from those parts
2012-04-13T23:42:50  <antimatroid> especially programmers
2012-04-13T23:43:05  <cyphase> yea
2012-04-13T23:48:27  <cyphase> i like how my brain feels after trying to wrap it around something big
2012-04-13T23:48:36  <cyphase> :D
2012-04-13T23:48:45  <antimatroid> cyphase: ever come across micro / game theorists online?
2012-04-13T23:48:53  <antimatroid> i want people to ask questions from
2012-04-13T23:49:24  <antimatroid> i sort of managed to find one guy, but understandably his replies are quite infrequent now as he finished his phd and went to industry
2012-04-13T23:50:25  <cyphase> nope, sorry. you're already in both the channels i would recommend
2012-04-13T23:50:30  <antimatroid> preferably with a knowledge of basic analysis/algebra
2012-04-13T23:50:52  <antimatroid> yeah i get the feeling there aren't too many grad students in that field
2012-04-13T23:51:26  <antimatroid> i don't mind if someone else finds that example anymore, i just want the problem resolved
2012-04-13T23:51:52  <antimatroid> before i found that other example i thought no such example existed