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2012-04-23T05:24:21  <mleise1> antimatroid: You'll just have to invent your own langauge or look around the internet some more. I guess the list of languages that offer pattern matching and C-like performance is rather short at the moment.
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2012-04-23T05:25:37  <mleise1> Some functions could be written more cleanly structured with pattern matching, like working with angles and special casing 0°, 90° and so on
2012-04-23T05:56:41  <mleise1> Removing simple pattern matching languages and oldies, I see: Scala, Objective CAML, ML, Haskell
2012-04-23T05:58:52  <mleise1> and I'll just add Rust, since I heard of it and it has switch-cases that do _some_ pattern matching
2012-04-23T06:10:19  <mleise1> Now let's remove from these 5 languages the ones that don't have "anything as an operator": there goes Rust, Haskell, ML dialects
2012-04-23T06:12:32  <mleise1> Wikipedia also has a list of languages that allow new definable operators: ALGOL 68, Eiffel, Fortran, F#, Haskell, Io, Perl 6, R, Scala, Smalltalk. Maybe you want to learn ALGOL instead or Perl? :D
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2012-04-23T06:48:27  <mleise> Also F# offers pretty much the same overloading scheme as ALGOL. You get a set of symbolic characters that you can use to define new operators. ALGOL uses proper mathematical symbols, while F# can combine multiple ASCII characters. But neither allows you to just put down anything you like as an operator. Honestly I don't know if it wouldn't create more problems than it solves in a language implementation.
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2012-04-23T07:08:42  <antimatroid> mleise: i suspect my largest problem is insufficient knowledge of basic programming concepts
2012-04-23T07:08:48  <antimatroid> it seems to trip me up a lot
2012-04-23T07:09:04  <mleise> what do you mean by basic concepts?
2012-04-23T07:09:20  <mleise> you know what inheritance is, what a recursion is etc.
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2012-04-23T08:57:47  <antimatroid> mleise: you gotta nic me or I forget :P
2012-04-23T08:58:01  <antimatroid> i don't know, but haskell just confuses the hell out of me every time i play with it
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2012-04-23T09:01:32  <mcstar> ahoy
2012-04-23T09:03:44  <mcstar> antimatroid: haskell lets you add new infix operators, define a precedence for them, you can define associativity to the left or to the right, or none, you can use any 2 argument function as an infix operator, you can add new types to numerical typeclasses(or others), what else do you need?
2012-04-23T09:04:08  <antimatroid> it sounds so awesome
2012-04-23T09:04:09  <antimatroid> but i don't get it
2012-04-23T09:04:17  <mcstar> :(
2012-04-23T09:04:24  <mcstar> im failed as a teacher
2012-04-23T09:04:29  <antimatroid> i get what you just said
2012-04-23T09:04:39  <antimatroid> but i don't get programming in haskell
2012-04-23T09:04:44  <antimatroid> and there's so much syntax to remember just to do stuff like input
2012-04-23T09:04:49  <antimatroid> i like >> and << in c++
2012-04-23T09:04:56  <antimatroid> it's simple and composable
2012-04-23T09:05:19  <mcstar> >> has a similarity to haskell's >>
2012-04-23T09:05:27  <mcstar> (monadic composition)
2012-04-23T09:06:11  <mcstar> anyway, haskell is very much syntax less
2012-04-23T09:06:25  <mcstar> it is quite logical
2012-04-23T09:06:48  <mcstar> antimatroid: how much did you read from the gentle introduction?
2012-04-23T09:06:57  <antimatroid> first few things
2012-04-23T09:07:00  <antimatroid> then tried to play around :P
2012-04-23T09:07:03  <mcstar> chapters?
2012-04-23T09:07:05  <antimatroid> i don't have time atm anyway
2012-04-23T09:07:08  <mcstar> k
2012-04-23T09:07:18  <antimatroid> swamped atm :(
2012-04-23T09:07:54  <mcstar> im waiting for new firmware to arrive...
2012-04-23T09:08:28  <mcstar> antimatroid: machine learning starts soon, got an email from them
2012-04-23T09:08:36  <antimatroid> yeah i know
2012-04-23T09:08:40  <antimatroid> i don't have time though
2012-04-23T09:08:46  <mcstar> yeah...
2012-04-23T09:10:45  <mcstar> mleise: clean lets you define operators like haskell, the two language is very similar, and there is pure, which is based on term rewriting, it is very configurable
2012-04-23T09:10:55  <mcstar> languages are*
2012-04-23T09:14:18  <mleise> mcstar: about that failing as a teacher... I don't know. You can chose: either its Haskell's fault, our exposition to C++ or yours.
2012-04-23T09:15:57  <mcstar> mleise: how do you solve en-route dihydration?
2012-04-23T09:16:36  <mleise> I take a PET bottle of water and apple juice with me
2012-04-23T09:16:43  <mcstar> mleise: btw, you can judge the above a bit, since i tried to explain some things to you
2012-04-23T09:16:47  <mleise> or I jog in the morning hours
2012-04-23T09:17:00  <mcstar> i sleep in the morning hours
2012-04-23T09:17:24  <mcstar> well, anyway, i woke at 7, but i dont think im gonna start running that early
2012-04-23T09:17:45  <mcstar> i just hate holding a bottle all the time
2012-04-23T09:18:18  <mcstar> i should strap it on my back, and have a straw to drink from it
2012-04-23T09:29:15  <antimatroid> mcstar: ride a bike :P
2012-04-23T09:29:37  <mcstar> antimatroid: good idea, but it takes too long
2012-04-23T09:29:46  <antimatroid> pedal harder then
2012-04-23T09:29:51  <mcstar> XD
2012-04-23T09:34:05  <mcstar> mleise: have you heard of something like compressing memory to  increse throughput?
2012-04-23T09:35:07  <mleise> mcstar: compressing data in RAM with a sophisticated algorithm (like zip) for local processing? no
2012-04-23T09:35:36  <mleise> I've heard of compressing files on low storage or for internet transfers (obvious)
2012-04-23T09:36:06  <mcstar> i mean something like always writing compressed data to dram
2012-04-23T09:36:11  <mleise> And it is a nice optimization to store a collection bit flags instead of larger data types
2012-04-23T09:36:15  <mcstar> and uncompress it into cache, and process it
2012-04-23T09:36:41  <mleise> mcstar: no, do some memory controllers do that?
2012-04-23T09:36:42  <mcstar> im just thinking about the memory bandwidth/latency problem
2012-04-23T09:36:49  <mcstar> i dont know
2012-04-23T09:38:57  <mleise> it's probably too complicated to implement on hardware (you need to be able to address the memory byte-by-byte)
2012-04-23T09:39:13  <mcstar> mleise: you know what us annoying? video cards have the same kind of memory as cpu's, and they can reach 100GB/s+ , why cant these ppl, integrate dram into the motherboard?
2012-04-23T09:39:16  <mleise> unless you restrict yourself somehow
2012-04-23T09:39:19  <mcstar> right next to the cpu? or something
2012-04-23T09:39:42  <mcstar> us->is
2012-04-23T09:39:49  <mleise> fast ram is expensive and ... yes you need it close to the cpu
2012-04-23T09:41:22  <mleise> After all CPUs *have* L1 + L2 caches, what more do you want :)
2012-04-23T09:41:45  <mcstar> that is just patching the problem, it isnt a solution
2012-04-23T09:41:48  <mleise> the latency is actually hidden *perfectly* when you access data in sequence
2012-04-23T09:42:05  <mcstar> what happens when you have 4 or more cores?
2012-04-23T09:42:16  <mleise> the modern x86 cpus only 'stall' when you use a random pattern
2012-04-23T09:42:41  <mcstar> mleise: im reading an article, i will be much smarter in 30 minutes
2012-04-23T09:42:47  <mleise> they can follow up to 16(?) data streams either forward or backwards
2012-04-23T09:43:02  <mcstar> but it definitely says, today's cpus starve more than ever
2012-04-23T09:43:28  <mleise> They just say that to support their claims :-|
2012-04-23T09:43:49  <mcstar> mleise: what does follow data stream mean?
2012-04-23T09:44:17  <mcstar> they have 16 pointers to fetched memory regions?
2012-04-23T09:44:27  <mleise> when the CPU detects a sequential access pattern it will preload the data into the cache
2012-04-23T09:44:39  <mcstar> yeah
2012-04-23T09:44:42  <mleise> arr[0], arr[1], arr[2] and so on
2012-04-23T09:45:06  <mleise> and yes, they can follow multiple such streams, but I don't know the exact number
2012-04-23T09:45:25  <mleise> So I tried it out with a linked list
2012-04-23T09:45:44  <mleise> Once with the linked items actually in the correct order in RAM and once with a random linking
2012-04-23T09:46:06  <mcstar> what was the test? copying?
2012-04-23T09:46:15  <mleise> The random order was slow as molasses, whereas the ordered list was as fast as using L1 or L2 caches
2012-04-23T09:46:26  <mleise> no I just accessed the pointers *g*
2012-04-23T09:46:40  <mleise> but still, it means reading data at that memory location
2012-04-23T09:47:01  <mcstar> how did you make a random list?
2012-04-23T09:47:19  <mcstar> i guess memory allocation happens pretty sequantially
2012-04-23T09:47:20  <mleise> using a uniform RNG
2012-04-23T09:47:38  <mcstar> i dont get it
2012-04-23T09:47:39  <mleise> i just created some random indexes and then linked the items accordingly
2012-04-23T09:47:45  <mcstar> ah
2012-04-23T09:47:50  <mcstar> ok
2012-04-23T09:47:52  <mleise> i had a preallocated array
2012-04-23T09:47:56  <mcstar> pfff
2012-04-23T09:47:57  <mcstar> stupid me
2012-04-23T09:48:09  <mcstar> i think for the very first time i understood it like that
2012-04-23T09:48:17  <mcstar> but then started thinking(which i shouldnt)
2012-04-23T09:48:39  <mleise> hey, it took me a while to understand a simple function call in haskell
2012-04-23T09:49:20  <mcstar> the important thing is that you had fun
2012-04-23T09:49:24  <mleise> You can actually write the test yourself. It's quickly done in any language
2012-04-23T09:49:45  <mcstar> i believe you
2012-04-23T09:50:01  <mleise> no, seeing is believing :p
2012-04-23T09:50:19  <mcstar> how long was the list?
2012-04-23T09:51:06  <mleise> long enough to exceed both cache levels
2012-04-23T09:51:25  <mcstar> was it larger than operational memory?
2012-04-23T09:51:28  <mcstar> XD
2012-04-23T09:51:31  <mleise> a multiple of the L2 cache actually. i tried different lengths and compared them
2012-04-23T09:51:53  <mleise> what is the operational memory? all RAM? ... well no.
2012-04-23T09:52:04  <mleise> more like maybe 512 MB
2012-04-23T09:52:34  <mcstar> yeah, ram is called operational memory too
2012-04-23T09:53:01  <mcstar> in contrast with swapped  memory i guess
2012-04-23T09:54:01  <mleise> I once implemented this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fibonacci_heap
2012-04-23T09:54:06  <mleise> It was a total fail
2012-04-23T09:54:12  <mcstar> :)
2012-04-23T09:54:24  <mcstar> why?
2012-04-23T09:54:30  <mleise> It has nice O(...) bounds, but it just isn't practical on the usual hardware
2012-04-23T09:54:38  <mleise> too many cache misses, pointers etc...
2012-04-23T09:55:13  <mleise> A normal array for storing the data (like Java uses) was 2 times faster for A* in Ants
2012-04-23T09:55:18  <mcstar> when i needed a priority queue, i tried like 4 heap implementations in CL
2012-04-23T09:55:49  <mcstar> i think our problem size was really small
2012-04-23T09:58:06  <mleise> Fibonacci heaps are not the easiest to implement, and I had to debug mine quite a bit, but it showed me that you cannot trust big-O notations for everything. (I hoped that the A* application was a long enough list to hide the constant overhead of F.heaps)
2012-04-23T09:58:57  <mleise> in fact you may often need n>=1000 to see any benefit over naive approaches
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2012-04-23T10:07:24  <mcstar> mleise: why do you say you cannot trust big-oh?
2012-04-23T10:08:27  <mcstar> big-oh(well, theta), just says, there is an n, when this will be better than that
2012-04-23T10:09:00  <mcstar> you really cant blame a theoretically sound technique, for poor performance
2012-04-23T10:09:02  <mleise> yes, that's what I liked to ignore.
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2012-04-23T10:32:51  <mcstar> i can clearly see my lcd flicker
2012-04-23T10:34:18  <pairofdice> On flat bakcground colors?
2012-04-23T10:34:31  <pairofdice> Mine flickers on some gray tones
2012-04-23T10:35:06  <mcstar> yeah, on gray stripes
2012-04-23T10:35:45  <mcstar> pairofdice: http://fc20630405.wordpress.com/
2012-04-23T10:35:56  <mcstar> that background is very flickery
2012-04-23T10:36:09  <pairofdice> some flicker
2012-04-23T10:36:51  <pairofdice> Here it's more noticeable on flat
2012-04-23T10:37:36  <mcstar> i think nouveau is running my screen at 60hz
2012-04-23T10:37:56  <mcstar> yeah
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2012-04-23T19:29:24  <mleise> hey kids
2012-04-23T19:30:28  <mleise> You don't get any pudding if you don't come to hear me!
2012-04-23T19:31:12  <mleise> I think that's actually a nice filter. Young people surely don't know Pink Floyd
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2012-04-23T19:33:40  <a1k0n> *that's* what he says?
2012-04-23T19:34:56  <mleise> Now where did that "that's what she said" phrase come from anyway?
2012-04-23T19:35:09  <mleise> I had a hard time tracking down "all your base are belong to us"
2012-04-23T19:35:53  <mleise> I'm just a german guy. and every day there is some new inside joke or phrase on the internet that i don't get
2012-04-23T19:37:36  <mleise> I just came back from the pub where a guy tried to couple me with a friend of his. She was a business woman. Can you imagine that? She wore a needle-stripe suit. That's so not my cup of tea
2012-04-23T19:40:42  <mleise> man, this photo i shot and use for my background looks so noisy.
2012-04-23T19:42:01  <mleise> why is it that your perception is so different under alcohol? it's not all getting blurry. actually it makes you take any time you need to look at things the way they are ... sometimes
2012-04-23T19:43:25  <mleise> damn those small digital cameras. they only make good photos when your look at them sober
2012-04-23T19:44:14  <mleise> now all that's left of this marveleous sky is noise. random noise all over the screen
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2012-04-23T19:49:24  <mleise> http://imageshack.us/f/542/img0075it.jpg/
2012-04-23T19:51:49  <mleise> and what's more... why am i the only one writing something?
2012-04-23T19:52:13  <mleise> I don't think that's how a chat is supposed to work
2012-04-23T19:54:24  <mleise> ok good night you hollow emptiness of a chat window
2012-04-23T19:58:22  <Zannick> good night
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2012-04-23T22:02:49  <amstan> janzert1: http://forums.aichallenge.org/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2423
2012-04-23T22:03:18  <amstan> janzert1: tell me if you agree or not, or if you even want to be part of the next iteration
2012-04-23T22:06:03  <amstan> Zannick: you might be interested too ^
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2012-04-23T23:15:11  <janzert1> @later tell amstan I'm in complete agreement with the first two paragraphs. For the complete rewrite I'm still rather dubious but if someone(s) can get it done then more power to 'em. 2 weeks from game implementation to full launch is also fairly worrisome to me that we will end up with a quality game. But for the next several months at least I don't have much time to put into the contest so those that do should do what they wa
2012-04-23T23:15:11  <contestbot> janzert1: I think that worked...
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2012-04-23T23:52:15  <Zannick> "should do what they wa"
2012-04-23T23:52:32  <Zannick> amstan: i might be game
2012-04-23T23:52:38  <Zannick> for the rewrite