2012-05-26T01:17:06 *** sigh has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T02:18:35 *** kurnevsky has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T02:21:40 *** pairofdice has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T02:24:59 *** Fandekasp has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2012-05-26T02:39:50 *** Palmik has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T02:39:50 *** thestinger has quit IRC (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7) 2012-05-26T02:40:37 *** thestinger has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T03:16:11 *** thestinger has quit IRC (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7) 2012-05-26T03:26:42 *** amstan has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2012-05-26T03:47:34 *** epicmonkey has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T04:02:51 *** NoxiaZ^ has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T04:51:00 *** epicmonkey has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds) 2012-05-26T04:59:08 *** thestinger has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T05:21:05 thestinger: did you see what a1k0n posted? 2012-05-26T05:21:33 nope 2012-05-26T05:21:41 antimatroid1: I would something you would laugh at though 2012-05-26T05:21:44 let me find it again 2012-05-26T05:21:54 http://www.scribd.com/jobs/botrace 2012-05-26T05:23:39 it's a bit like food collection for ants 2012-05-26T05:24:05 i would game tree it as always 2012-05-26T05:24:20 each move being collecting a fruit obviously 2012-05-26T05:27:17 ermm... dunno how to run games locally though? 2012-05-26T05:28:33 antimatroid1: ok wait, you have to watch this 2012-05-26T05:28:46 this game intrigues me though 2012-05-26T05:28:46 I guarantee you will laugh at how stupid the people who made this movie are 2012-05-26T05:28:50 even though i have no spare time 2012-05-26T05:28:51 and they call it an 'intellectual thriller' 2012-05-26T05:28:55 antimatroid1: http://youtu.be/6ybd5rbQ5rU 2012-05-26T05:31:32 ahahaha 2012-05-26T05:31:42 well maybe it's not as the trailer makes it seem, but the clip where he's hacking computers with the travelling salesman problem in metasploit is wut 2012-05-26T05:31:45 "I thought this was a joke." 2012-05-26T05:31:50 so did i until i read that comment 2012-05-26T05:31:54 they really didn't get competent consultants 2012-05-26T05:32:01 they never do 2012-05-26T05:33:33 "TRAVELLING SALESMAN is an intellectual thriller" ... lol 2012-05-26T05:33:48 i will be thrilled 2012-05-26T05:33:53 i'll give them that 2012-05-26T05:34:57 come on , that *is* a joke, right? 2012-05-26T05:35:36 mleise: no... 2012-05-26T05:35:45 mleise: that's the joke 2012-05-26T05:35:46 I thought it was a parody 2012-05-26T05:35:46 it isn't 2012-05-26T05:35:51 it's a real srs bsns movie 2012-05-26T05:35:57 no joke, no parody? 2012-05-26T05:36:04 nope, real movie 2012-05-26T05:36:15 real governments hiring real mathematicans to comb the desert for coins? 2012-05-26T05:36:31 melt it! 2012-05-26T05:36:33 Comb the desert! 2012-05-26T05:36:51 you get the reference? 2012-05-26T05:36:53 ok ok 2012-05-26T05:36:59 *** foRei has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T05:37:09 let's assume you could just melt sand to make it glass 2012-05-26T05:37:14 well someone solving p vs np allows them to hack people with a metasploit module called "travelling_salesman" and it is the greatest hacking algorithm ever known ??? 2012-05-26T05:37:23 * thestinger doesn't get it 2012-05-26T05:37:25 could you not just use a metal detector and still have to walk over the entire fucking dessert to find the coin? 2012-05-26T05:37:53 *** Kingpin13 has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T05:38:18 antimatroid1: you could just remove all the sand bit by bit :P 2012-05-26T05:38:53 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MtkK3eijBso 2012-05-26T05:39:01 i would eat my dessert (oops :P) 2012-05-26T05:40:03 we ain't found shit 2012-05-26T05:41:24 "if you melt the glass then the coin would melt first " 2012-05-26T05:41:25 my friend 2012-05-26T05:43:46 the quality of the camera and the plot differ so vastly, it must be a joke 2012-05-26T05:43:48 bye 2012-05-26T05:44:36 *** mleise has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.) 2012-05-26T06:24:00 *** mceier has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T06:44:25 *** epicmonkey has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T06:47:33 *** g0llum has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T07:16:35 *** test has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T07:58:39 *** Garf has quit IRC (Quit: Make a new plan, Stan!) 2012-05-26T08:09:44 *** epicmonkey has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds) 2012-05-26T09:39:12 *** thestinger has quit IRC (Quit: WeeChat 0.3.7) 2012-05-26T12:02:55 *** FireFly has quit IRC (Excess Flood) 2012-05-26T12:08:44 *** FireFly has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T12:35:29 *** mcstar has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T12:35:47 great movie, ill surely download it 2012-05-26T12:38:17 *** sigh has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2012-05-26T12:57:26 *** iglo has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T13:26:34 *** iglo has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2012-05-26T13:47:42 *** heinrich5991 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2012-05-26T13:53:37 *** amstan has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T13:53:51 *** ChanServ sets mode: +o amstan 2012-05-26T13:56:58 *** heinrich5991 has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T14:08:04 *** epicmonkey has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T14:09:20 *** coeus has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T14:18:56 *** mcstar has quit IRC (Quit: mcstar) 2012-05-26T15:30:59 *** Accoun has quit IRC () 2012-05-26T15:35:07 *** antimatroid has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T15:36:47 *** antimatroid1 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds) 2012-05-26T15:42:16 *** Accoun has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T15:46:11 *** CIA-4 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2012-05-26T15:46:18 *** CIA-95 has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T16:24:13 *** mceier has quit IRC (Quit: leaving) 2012-05-26T16:24:20 *** Palmik has quit IRC () 2012-05-26T16:28:01 *** Palmik has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T16:32:32 *** Palmik has quit IRC (Client Quit) 2012-05-26T16:36:17 *** kurnevsky has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.) 2012-05-26T17:10:13 *** g0llum has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2012-05-26T17:22:49 *** epicmonkey has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2012-05-26T18:34:52 *** AlliedEnvy has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2012-05-26T18:37:04 *** AlliedEnvy has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T18:41:17 *** AlliedEnvy has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection) 2012-05-26T18:43:00 *** AlliedEnvy has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T18:46:58 *** thestinger has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T18:48:23 *** FireFly has quit IRC (Changing host) 2012-05-26T18:48:23 *** FireFly has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T20:23:52 *** antimatroid1 has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T20:24:48 *** antimatroid has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds) 2012-05-26T20:37:23 *** sigh has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T21:43:47 *** Fandekasp has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T21:52:34 *** antimatroid1 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds) 2012-05-26T22:05:47 *** antimatroid has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T22:26:04 *** foRei has quit IRC (Quit: Bye) 2012-05-26T22:27:26 *** antimatroid1 has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T22:29:00 *** antimatroid has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 248 seconds) 2012-05-26T22:57:53 *** NoxiaZ^ has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 244 seconds) 2012-05-26T23:18:03 *** _flag <_flag!~flag@69-165-173-172.dsl.teksavvy.com> has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T23:24:32 *** deltree_ has joined #aichallenge 2012-05-26T23:24:51 any word on the next challenge yet? 2012-05-26T23:25:19 I've been redoing my planet wars bot out of boredome 2012-05-26T23:27:49 <_flag> ants is sort of a volunteer project -- right now nobody seems to be terribly motivated, so nothing is going on 2012-05-26T23:28:03 <_flag> or I shouldn't say "ants", I mean the ai challenge in general 2012-05-26T23:29:08 gotcha, I didn't enjoy ants 2012-05-26T23:31:29 I told them it was based a bit too much on optimization 2012-05-26T23:32:33 <_flag> This was even more true of Tron 2012-05-26T23:32:53 imo ants didn't require much optimization 2012-05-26T23:32:59 unless you used python/ruby... 2012-05-26T23:33:03 <_flag> In ants many of the top entries were at least java based, in tron it was all C++ 2012-05-26T23:33:55 it was mostly strategy rather than coding, since the game mechanics made it into something like Go where you couldn't just minimax 2012-05-26T23:34:05 tron was 1000000 year sago 2012-05-26T23:35:16 I'm just stating my personal feelings on the matter. My bot in C# kept crashing from having too much to do. Just building a map took my whole turn 2012-05-26T23:36:16 deltree_: mine worked in python before I added proper combat 2012-05-26T23:36:28 and it was still pretty good before that 2012-05-26T23:36:29 <_flag> Well you have to obviously be somewhat efficient, but the point was that efficiency wasn't the deciding factor 2012-05-26T23:36:34 <_flag> Obviously you can't be wasteful 2012-05-26T23:37:11 we're waiting to become a non-profit more than anything 2012-05-26T23:37:16 I could still do a search from every food on the map in python 2012-05-26T23:38:24 <_flag> antimatroid1: Has Jeff began the process on that? 2012-05-26T23:38:34 i think amstan was going to 2012-05-26T23:38:38 i don't think they have though 2012-05-26T23:38:42 they need time to do it 2012-05-26T23:38:52 <_flag> So basically everyone's sitting around, as I said :P 2012-05-26T23:39:14 i don't have time 2012-05-26T23:39:23 but i'd be down for writing tron bots again at some point 2012-05-26T23:39:26 without an actual contest 2012-05-26T23:39:52 <_flag> I'm not blaming you, I'm not doing anything either 2012-05-26T23:40:07 antimatroid1: pfft, you have time 2012-05-26T23:40:13 <_flag> But yeah, writing bots is usually appealing, writing game engines isn't as exciting 2012-05-26T23:40:35 writing engines that run the game engines... 2012-05-26T23:40:58 <_flag> Anyone know why these never caught on: https://github.com/smiley1983/ants-tcp ? 2012-05-26T23:41:00 antimatroid1: you just won't have time to find the optimal solution :) 2012-05-26T23:41:00 writing game engines is actually kind of fun 2012-05-26T23:41:07 but that's not a big part of getting a game up 2012-05-26T23:41:19 <_flag> There's versions of asteriods and warlight in there 2012-05-26T23:41:33 imo warlight is boring as shit to watch 2012-05-26T23:41:40 <_flag> True 2012-05-26T23:41:41 i'm keen on asteroids 2012-05-26T23:41:53 although what about removing the asteroids and adding fixed walls? 2012-05-26T23:42:08 so you fly around the course trying to shoot each other 2012-05-26T23:42:11 <_flag> I liked the idea of a non-turn-based game 2012-05-26T23:42:19 it's still turn based 2012-05-26T23:42:31 it only seems non-turn-based 2012-05-26T23:42:37 <_flag> So each player moves a set distance each turn? 2012-05-26T23:42:40 but then it's tick-based and essentially the same thing 2012-05-26T23:42:50 <_flag> Oh, I see 2012-05-26T23:42:51 they have variables like direction and velocity 2012-05-26T23:43:06 and you can control acceleration in a direction i assume in increments 2012-05-26T23:43:11 i haven't actually played around with it 2012-05-26T23:45:03 can i have people agree with me yet that random rules in the game mechanics suck? 2012-05-26T23:45:15 i know a lot of the top competitors in ants agreed 2012-05-26T23:45:23 especially chrisH with the spawning at bases :P 2012-05-26T23:45:32 <_flag> What do you mean random rules? 2012-05-26T23:45:48 like which base to spawn at if there's more than one feasible one 2012-05-26T23:46:05 or for example which direction asteroids split at 2012-05-26T23:46:11 rather than something a bot can model 2012-05-26T23:46:42 <_flag> I'm not so sure, if everything is completely deterministic then the contest becomes largely about simulating the game and a minmax search 2012-05-26T23:46:46 the state space in a game is already large enough without worrying about all the things that could happen with each move you make 2012-05-26T23:46:57 <_flag> With probability involved it's not as easy 2012-05-26T23:47:09 <_flag> But it's better for determining a concrete winner 2012-05-26T23:47:32 i don't think it makes minimax any less useful holding state space constant, it does increase the state space for a given game though if you will 2012-05-26T23:47:48 i'd rather a more complicated deterministic game though 2012-05-26T23:47:53 rather than a simple game with random elements 2012-05-26T23:48:14 <_flag> I agree with that, as long as the game is complex enough that it doesn't become an optimization race it's fine 2012-05-26T23:48:30 <_flag> That's the only reason I would agree to randomness 2012-05-26T23:48:35 i'm not sure tron was entirely optimisation based 2012-05-26T23:48:44 sure you couldn't be an inefficient baboon 2012-05-26T23:49:02 <_flag> Well I think the major breakthroughs were optimization based 2012-05-26T23:49:23 <_flag> Like a1k0n's checkerboard way of determining how to fill an area 2012-05-26T23:49:38 this is why i want past games to be continued to be "studied" after contests are over 2012-05-26T23:49:49 so ideas can be properly shared and we can see what really does work best 2012-05-26T23:50:03 antimatroid1: I agree that the randomness sucks 2012-05-26T23:50:10 like the fact that it was n-player and not 2-player 2012-05-26T23:50:15 what? 2012-05-26T23:50:19 that's fine 2012-05-26T23:50:21 from earlier 2012-05-26T23:50:30 that's not what i mean 2012-05-26T23:50:35 what then? 2012-05-26T23:50:38 that's like saying random maps aren't okay 2012-05-26T23:50:40 <_flag> antimatroid1: That would probably work if we could keep the main server running, since people tend to be motivated by having their bot show up on the scoreboard 2012-05-26T23:50:47 i don't like things being chosen randomly during the game 2012-05-26T23:50:49 <_flag> in regards to the studied thing 2012-05-26T23:51:02 i think main server isn't feasible 2012-05-26T23:51:09 it needs to be tcp based cause of money required 2012-05-26T23:51:19 <_flag> Yes, I know, but that's the only way I see people doing it 2012-05-26T23:51:22 just some official tcp servers would be good 2012-05-26T23:51:35 and perhaps have a few bots running on a main server 2012-05-26T23:51:42 which are only used if other matches can't be made 2012-05-26T23:51:44 I like the idea of a space game, it sounds better than the upcoming one http://0x10c.com/ 2012-05-26T23:52:05 you could add to the challenge by making it 3d 2012-05-26T23:52:12 we want beginners to be able to participate 2012-05-26T23:52:22 3d is just another direction to check for problems 2012-05-26T23:52:35 <_flag> Making things 3d doesn't affect strategy much though 2012-05-26T23:52:45 yeah, it's like nd tron 2012-05-26T23:52:47 <_flag> In most games you just modify a distance function 2012-05-26T23:52:51 it's not inherently harder than 2d 2012-05-26T23:52:54 <_flag> And add search directions 2012-05-26T23:52:56 just hte state space explodes 2012-05-26T23:55:03 <_flag> One thing I liked about planetWars over ants and trons was that there wasn't a binaryness to it. You don't just either send or not send ships, but you chose the amount to send 2012-05-26T23:55:09 <_flag> Which added a lot of depth IMO 2012-05-26T23:55:27 yeah i also liked that it had the feeling of "being solvable" 2012-05-26T23:55:37 i spent a lot of time on paper trying to do stuff mathematically 2012-05-26T23:55:47 and even 3 planet examples could be stupidly complicated 2012-05-26T23:55:52 it was a really cool problem 2012-05-26T23:55:57 <_flag> It felt like it should be solvable, but it wasn't trivial at all 2012-05-26T23:56:12 nope 2012-05-26T23:56:31 i think all three games went pretty well in the end 2012-05-26T23:56:42 ants went better than i expected 2012-05-26T23:56:52 <_flag> I'm surprised that they were all so decisive 2012-05-26T23:57:03 i was worried for xathis :P 2012-05-26T23:57:04 <_flag> ants got close, but xathis was clearly on top 2012-05-26T23:57:07 yep 2012-05-26T23:57:31 ahhh, reminiscing makes me want another challenge 2012-05-26T23:57:38 <_flag> Yeah, trueskill was pretty volitile, so I think he would feel sort of cheated if he lost at the last second 2012-05-26T23:57:53 see, told you ai contest is awesome 2012-05-26T23:58:02 i took measure and probability theory courses this semester 2012-05-26T23:58:15 i might sit down and play around with ranking at some point from a mathematical point of view 2012-05-26T23:58:20 i don't really understand it at present