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2012-08-27T15:15:27 mcstar: http://sprunge.us/ZAGP like that 2012-08-27T15:15:31 it's convenient when using C APIs 2012-08-27T15:15:34 that don't use RAII 2012-08-27T15:15:52 you just need a little make_scope_guard function and you can give anything RAII (unique_ptr does cover some use cases now though) 2012-08-27T15:15:53 dont use c 2012-08-27T15:16:05 mcstar: even C++ libraries don't use RAII properly 2012-08-27T15:16:08 for example LevelDB 2012-08-27T15:16:24 what is hard to get right about raii? 2012-08-27T15:16:46 lots of projects (for example anything made by google) don't use exceptions (they can't, due to legacy code) 2012-08-27T15:16:51 so their libraries don't use exceptions 2012-08-27T15:16:57 no exceptions means you can't really use constructors 2012-08-27T15:17:05 and then RAII ends up pretty hard to implement properly 2012-08-27T15:17:10 o.O 2012-08-27T15:17:19 why cant they use exceptions? 2012-08-27T15:17:27 that is one big selling point of c++ over c 2012-08-27T15:17:29 i think 2012-08-27T15:17:36 because exception safety requires RAII 2012-08-27T15:17:40 for pretty much *everything* 2012-08-27T15:17:49 no delete, fclose, close, sqlite3_close, or any equivalents allowed 2012-08-27T15:17:53 pretty much 2012-08-27T15:18:15 and they have big legacy codebases 2012-08-27T15:18:32 legacy c codebase? 2012-08-27T15:18:42 mcstar: also C++, before people used it like they do now 2012-08-27T15:18:49 anyway scope guards are nice for other things 2012-08-27T15:18:53 write a correct wrapper for it 2012-08-27T15:18:59 you can use raii for a lot more than resources 2012-08-27T15:19:05 like how the C++11 threading API has scoped locks 2012-08-27T15:19:30 scoped locks dont require c++11 2012-08-27T15:19:47 did c++11 add thread support for the language? 2012-08-27T15:19:50 yes 2012-08-27T15:19:51 Yes 2012-08-27T15:20:01 mcstar: as did C11 to C (I think they are somewhat compatible) 2012-08-27T15:20:30 mcstar: http://www.boost.org/doc/libs/1_51_0/doc/html/thread.html it was based on that 2012-08-27T15:20:43 but they also added atomics, etc. 2012-08-27T15:21:06 boost ofc 2012-08-27T15:21:40 http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/thread/lock_guard and http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/thread/unique_lock 2012-08-27T15:22:13 i dont care much for c++ as i said many times, it is just too bad, that there are not much choice other than c++ when you want cross platform high quality gui(qt) 2012-08-27T15:23:08 i wrote a little benchmark in f#/mono that trashed the qt event loop 2012-08-27T15:23:13 it wasnt really too bad 2012-08-27T15:23:26 qt isn't really high performance 2012-08-27T15:23:27 95fps vs. 120 2012-08-27T15:23:33 probably better than glib/gtk though 2012-08-27T15:23:39 qt is high quality 2012-08-27T15:23:41 yes 2012-08-27T15:23:46 performance is ok 2012-08-27T15:23:47 but it's coded in a very dynamic java style 2012-08-27T15:23:51 not that it's a bad thing 2012-08-27T15:23:55 it's just not fast/light 2012-08-27T15:24:00 it makes it more flexible 2012-08-27T15:24:21 it uses signals/slots which is quite dynamic and all the event handlers are virtuals 2012-08-27T15:24:35 I'm sure they would do things a bit differently today 2012-08-27T15:24:35 it is fast 2012-08-27T15:24:59 when it comes to complex thins, it is faster i think, than something an average joe would have come up with 2012-08-27T15:25:07 with its spaghetti code and such 2012-08-27T15:25:10 well ofc :P 2012-08-27T15:25:25 but it has a long legacy since it was around before the C++ standard lib 2012-08-27T15:25:42 but they do a good job modernizing stuff 2012-08-27T15:25:57 you dont have to use that part, but it fits nicely i think(also i dont use other components) 2012-08-27T15:26:14 *** Accoun has joined #aichallenge 2012-08-27T15:26:42 what id like to see, is a nice gui abstraction for a functional language, ocaml/haskell 2012-08-27T15:28:16 f# is multi paradigm, has a nice oo part, so qt can actually fit in, but you have to consider mono when deploying on linux 2012-08-27T15:28:38 and you have to get the smoke/smokegen/qyoto part working on windows 2012-08-27T15:29:46 thestinger: a similar app, written in ocaml, with graphics from its stdlib, performance was around 400fps 2012-08-27T15:30:11 but thats because of the much simpler event handling of that lib 2012-08-27T15:30:56 mcstar: have you tried the enlightenment stuff? 2012-08-27T15:31:03 http://sprunge.us/FefU 2012-08-27T15:31:12 thestinger: thats not for desktop 2012-08-27T15:31:19 it is closer to qt quick 2012-08-27T15:31:34 but e17 is a DE :P 2012-08-27T15:31:38 yeah 2012-08-27T15:31:53 but the enlightenment native gui's dont belong to the desktop 2012-08-27T15:32:11 it doesnt resemble usual widgets and stuff 2012-08-27T15:32:24 ah 2012-08-27T15:32:39 well linux doesn't really have a default widget look anyway 2012-08-27T15:32:39 and they are probably very limited in functionality comapred to full widget toolkits 2012-08-27T15:32:55 thestinger: motif! 2012-08-27T15:32:58 XD 2012-08-27T15:33:08 I love how ugly tk is on linux 2012-08-27T15:33:14 it looks okay on OS X and windows 2012-08-27T15:33:14 old tk is 2012-08-27T15:33:19 new tk isnt that ugly 2012-08-27T15:33:38 there are a couple of themes for linux 2012-08-27T15:33:46 the default is ugly 2012-08-27T15:33:51 sort of :) 2012-08-27T15:34:00 ok, damn ugly 2012-08-27T15:34:05 but its fast 2012-08-27T15:34:12 I don't actually mind gtk, but C APIs are just awful 2012-08-27T15:34:18 so it's awful to use 2012-08-27T15:34:22 anyway, im more concerned about the way you can program it 2012-08-27T15:34:27 stupid horrible gobject/glib stuff 2012-08-27T15:34:30 yeah 2012-08-27T15:34:41 gtkmm/glibmm are actually pretty nice 2012-08-27T15:34:51 wxwidgets vs qt, those are the main contenters 2012-08-27T15:35:04 d* 2012-08-27T15:35:20 ronchaine: btw, dont feel ignored 2012-08-27T15:35:28 but you have to talk more to be talked to 2012-08-27T15:35:48 gtkmm really isn't that bad 2012-08-27T15:36:44 the C++ style is actually a bit more modern than Qt, since that's all it really is (a modern-ish C++ wrapper around gtk) 2012-08-27T15:36:48 but Qt is a nicer toolkit 2012-08-27T15:38:55 mcstar: Don't worry, I don't. 2012-08-27T15:40:00 thestinger: the point is, these object oriented apis are not usable from a functional language 2012-08-27T15:40:10 except a multi-paradigm one, like F# 2012-08-27T15:40:14 yeah 2012-08-27T15:40:22 but the functional ones, like gtk, are a pain 2012-08-27T15:40:25 so fuck it 2012-08-27T15:40:29 *** mattswe has joined #aichallenge 2012-08-27T15:40:43 I was reading about the functional-reactive programming thing 2012-08-27T15:40:56 that doesnt really solve the problem 2012-08-27T15:41:02 it solves data dependency 2012-08-27T15:41:09 but doesnt solve the problem of composition 2012-08-27T15:41:16 according to my understanding 2012-08-27T15:42:32 there is a similar thing for common lisp, called 'cells' 2012-08-27T15:42:44 theres a cells-gtk binding 2012-08-27T15:43:19 but then, with common lisp you lose the static strong typing and things built around that 2012-08-27T15:44:21 thestinger: my qt paste was kind og motivated by frp, thats why the name, but maybe this is obvious 2012-08-27T15:45:55 rust is pretty cool 2012-08-27T15:46:34 it's neat that they have things similar to references and the different smart pointer types in C++, but it's still memory safe (you can't have a dangling pointer, etc.) 2012-08-27T15:47:07 they use typestate 2012-08-27T15:47:17 i bet theres no gui for rust 2012-08-27T15:48:08 it does have bindings 2012-08-27T15:48:37 not in the stdlib yet 2012-08-27T15:53:32 mcstar: http://dl.rust-lang.org/doc/tutorial.html#traits this is pretty neat 2012-08-27T15:53:39 kind of like type classes, but can also be dynamically 2012-08-27T15:54:03 I just wish the syntax wasn't so ugly 2012-08-27T15:55:01 I guess you become used to it 2012-08-27T15:55:07 they just use a lot of operators 2012-08-27T15:55:12 as does haskell 2012-08-27T16:19:20 thestinger: oh, btw, zsh sucks 2012-08-27T16:19:37 what now? :P 2012-08-27T16:20:30 well, it is slow 2012-08-27T16:20:35 much slower than bash 2012-08-27T16:20:38 or any other shell 2012-08-27T16:20:52 im talking about the delay, that the prompt is drawn 2012-08-27T16:21:22 I don't have a delay 2012-08-27T16:21:23 how fast is it for you if you leave your finger on enter? 2012-08-27T16:21:29 instant basically 2012-08-27T16:21:37 mcstar: it's as fast as the key repeat 2012-08-27T16:21:38 i have a huge delay 2012-08-27T16:21:46 mcstar: even with a simple prompt? 2012-08-27T16:21:47 not nearlyy as fast for me 2012-08-27T16:21:50 maybe your prompt is doing git stuff 2012-08-27T16:21:55 no 2012-08-27T16:22:00 it doesnt depend on PS1 2012-08-27T16:22:06 are you using a custom prompt? 2012-08-27T16:22:08 thats the weird part 2012-08-27T16:22:09 or a built-in one 2012-08-27T16:22:15 doesnt depend on it 2012-08-27T16:22:20 some of the built-in ones have really complex features 2012-08-27T16:22:23 mcstar: what do you mean? 2012-08-27T16:22:25 but its a custom simple prompt 2012-08-27T16:22:43 thestinger: the delay doesnt depend on the prompt configuration 2012-08-27T16:22:48 hmm 2012-08-27T16:23:08 if i enter bash, everything is isntant 2012-08-27T16:23:20 well I don't get a delay in either 2012-08-27T16:23:29 mcstar: what's in your zshrc? 2012-08-27T16:24:10 http://sprunge.us/KKjC 2012-08-27T16:26:19 mcstar: I don't get a delay with this prompt, so I guess that isn't it 2012-08-27T16:27:04 yay, einstein 2012-08-27T16:27:07 :P 2012-08-27T16:27:50 thestinger: is there a startup option, to prevent reading the config files? 2012-08-27T16:28:21 ZDOTDIR=/dev/null zsh 2012-08-27T16:28:35 well that prevents reading some 2012-08-27T16:29:07 slowness.. 2012-08-27T16:29:13 mcstar: I do get a slight delay with the default prompt that has git info in it 2012-08-27T16:29:33 ok, but that would be understandable 2012-08-27T16:29:45 but the difference between bash and zsh is huge 2012-08-27T16:29:52 like, rowing in honey 2012-08-27T16:29:54 not here :P 2012-08-27T16:30:08 thestinger: probably, this distro, arch sucks 2012-08-27T16:30:10 they seem to print at exactly the same speed 2012-08-27T16:30:16 i always suspected it is slow.. 2012-08-27T16:30:21 XD 2012-08-27T16:30:22 I am on arch too... :P 2012-08-27T16:30:43 ill try a real terminal 2012-08-27T16:30:59 well I'm using termite ofc :P 2012-08-27T16:31:26 same 2012-08-27T16:37:50 mcstar: it's still slow with defaults? 2012-08-27T16:38:11 yeah, with the envvar you pasted 2012-08-27T16:43:35 mcstar: oh 2012-08-27T16:43:53 mcstar: try without sharehistory set 2012-08-27T16:44:20 oh wait that wouldn't have been set anyway 2012-08-27T16:44:22 hmm 2012-08-27T16:44:34 * thestinger has no idea now 2012-08-27T16:46:54 ill just live with it in the moment 2012-08-27T16:47:02 at 2012-08-27T16:47:37 maybe a bug 2012-08-27T16:47:55 mcstar: try setopt nosharehistory though 2012-08-27T16:48:00 I suspect it could be that 2012-08-27T16:48:26 no 2012-08-27T16:48:33 it woudlnt save a newline anyway 2012-08-27T16:49:30 but I think it rereads the history on a prompt print 2012-08-27T16:52:38 why? 2012-08-27T16:52:50 it needs to read history, when you push up arrow 2012-08-27T16:53:11 things can happen in another instance of zsh while you idle at your prompt 2012-08-27T17:05:14 *** heinrich5991 has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 272 seconds) 2012-08-27T17:07:07 thestinger: apparently, a static templated class method cannot be called without parameterizing the name resolution 2012-08-27T17:07:48 thestinger: im trying to put your make_scope_guard function into the scope_guard class as a static method 2012-08-27T17:08:13 mcstar: well the reason for the wrapper function is to avoid that 2012-08-27T17:08:48 otherwise you have to use scope_guard guard(func) after doing auto func = []() {}; 2012-08-27T17:09:35 yeah 2012-08-27T17:09:41 but i thought it was possible without that 2012-08-27T17:12:02 *** kilae has quit IRC (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.88.2 [Firefox 14.0.1/20120713134347]) 2012-08-27T17:13:39 doesn't seem like there is 2012-08-27T17:14:01 the standard lib has stuff like make_pair due to that 2012-08-27T17:14:08 and make_tuple 2012-08-27T17:14:36 is there a make_fart_noises function too? 2012-08-27T17:15:11 *** alehorst1 has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2012-08-27T17:16:40 http://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/utility/tuple/tuple_cat now *that* is weird 2012-08-27T17:17:24 *** alehorst has joined #aichallenge 2012-08-27T17:19:00 *** heinrich5991 has joined #aichallenge 2012-08-27T17:19:40 http://bartoszmilewski.com/2009/09/08/template-metaprogramming-made-easy-huh/ 2012-08-27T17:20:23 http://bartoszmilewski.com/2009/10/21/what-does-haskell-have-to-do-with-c/ 2012-08-27T17:20:28 this is the better one 2012-08-27T17:20:37 i read it quite a while ago 2012-08-27T17:21:38 you can do nice stuff with variadic templates 2012-08-27T17:23:10 c++ simply has too much syntactic noise, and there a lot of intricacies too keep in mind, and it isnt good when you write your code, to satisfy your compiler 2012-08-27T17:23:31 yes 2012-08-27T17:23:34 way too much legacy crap 2012-08-27T17:23:42 and way too hard to do simple things 2012-08-27T17:24:13 Simple things should be simple, complex things should be possible." 2012-08-27T17:24:24 it is powerful, no doubt, but i dont think it scales well, and your time is better spent doing something else 2012-08-27T17:24:30 but ofc, it has its place 2012-08-27T17:24:39 C++ makes simple things complex and complex things complex :P 2012-08-27T17:25:07 templates are such a pain most of the time 2012-08-27T17:25:08 who said that? i forgot 2012-08-27T17:25:11 alan kay 2012-08-27T17:25:38 one of the early linux developers 2012-08-27T17:25:49 i saw a documentary yesterday 2012-08-27T17:25:52 The Code 2012-08-27T17:26:12 like a quarter of it was in finnish 2012-08-27T17:26:21 no english subtitles 2012-08-27T17:27:24 i think i confused him with some other alan 2012-08-27T17:27:36 alan kay is one of the smalltalk people 2012-08-27T17:27:53 alan cox 2012-08-27T17:28:06 thats the linux guru 2012-08-27T17:28:40 mcstar: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynabook also that 2012-08-27T17:29:11 never heard of it 2012-08-27T17:29:36 it? 2012-08-27T17:29:41 the dynabook? 2012-08-27T17:29:43 ok 2012-08-27T17:29:57 thestinger: tablets come from star trek 2012-08-27T17:30:01 well it feels like I should have heard of it :P 2012-08-27T17:30:10 steve just watched a scifis 2012-08-27T17:34:54 when ill have the time, ill practice continuations 2012-08-27T17:35:57 aerique is pretty much inactive 2012-08-27T17:36:30 your blog i mean ^^ 2012-08-27T17:42:11 *** fry has joined #aichallenge 2012-08-27T17:57:21 thestinger: http://ukijs.org/examples/ 2012-08-27T17:58:30 the most reponsive one, that ive seen so far 2012-08-27T17:58:33 s 2012-08-27T18:00:35 html itself has a lot of the widgets like sliders 2012-08-27T18:00:50 http://www.whatwg.org/specs/web-apps/current-work/multipage/the-input-element.html#attr-input-type 2012-08-27T18:19:20 thestinger: funny read http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Hungarian.txt 2012-08-27T18:25:14 *** Scooper has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) 2012-08-27T18:35:33 http://www.folklore.org/StoryView.py?project=Macintosh&story=Donkey.txt&characters=Charles%20Simonyi&sortOrder=Sort%20by%20Date&detail=medium 2012-08-27T18:35:37 this is good 2012-08-27T18:46:43 *** antimatroid has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2012-08-27T18:47:46 *** antimatroid has joined #aichallenge 2012-08-27T18:48:51 *** mcstar has quit IRC (Quit: mcstar) 2012-08-27T18:55:56 *** fry has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) 2012-08-27T19:01:00 *** foRei has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2012-08-27T19:02:40 *** coldkey21 has joined #aichallenge 2012-08-27T19:11:06 *** coldkey21 has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving) 2012-08-27T19:34:40 *** choas has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds) 2012-08-27T19:54:21 *** mleise has joined #aichallenge 2012-08-27T20:16:07 *** alehorst has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2012-08-27T20:17:34 *** mleise has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds) 2012-08-27T20:17:59 *** alehorst has joined #aichallenge 2012-08-27T21:43:18 *** replore_ has joined #aichallenge 2012-08-27T22:20:05 *** smj has joined #aichallenge 2012-08-27T22:20:05 *** smj has joined #aichallenge 2012-08-27T22:34:36 *** smj has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!) 2012-08-27T23:16:45 *** alehorst has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer) 2012-08-27T23:19:12 *** alehorst has joined #aichallenge