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2012-11-13T04:34:12  <ramn[work]> mleise: yea the strafe-walk is neat
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2012-11-13T05:12:33  <smiley1983> phildunstan: thanks for providing the link to the linux version, I'm installing a 64bit xubuntu 12.04 to try it out on. +1 for interest in extending the deadline, and +1 for interest in a 32bit version
2012-11-13T05:12:52  <smiley1983> also, I will be looking into making an Objective Caml starter pack if I can get the environment set up
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2012-11-13T05:19:47  <phildunstan> smiley1983:no problems, give me a yell if you have any problems with the network api
2012-11-13T05:20:17  <phildunstan> we should be releasing a network capable version of the server today, but i can send something to you earlier if you'd like
2012-11-13T05:20:28  <phildunstan> send us an email to team at aigamedev.com
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2012-11-13T06:22:51  <mleise> phildunstan: did you get some inspiration for that contest from aichallenge.org ?
2012-11-13T06:25:57  <phildunstan> mleise: certainly. a number of us have done previous aichallenge competitions, We are all sad that the internal problems prevented aichallenge from running this year
2012-11-13T06:26:07  <mleise> I think there are some parallels like the more or less free choice of programming language, no hidden statistics like health points and ammo, even black-and-white grid for the maps
2012-11-13T06:27:19  <phildunstan> The inspiration was less so on the game type, but aichallenge has set some high expectations from people as to choice of languages and development environment
2012-11-13T06:27:41  <mleise> yes, too bad. we had some ideas, like making a european ai challenge or playing the constest on everyone's home computers
2012-11-13T06:30:11  <mleise> It gave use some headaches, like we still don't have a good way to measure CPU time or limit the threads of a bot to 1. Especially Java likes to spawn some threads in advance.
2012-11-13T06:31:03  <phildunstan> our choice of game type/theme was more about reducing the complexity of a common AAA problem, Alex (aigamedev founder) worked on the Killzone bots so ctf was a natural choice
2012-11-13T06:31:05  <mleise> I've seen another contest that uses a special Java VM that counts byte code instructions.
2012-11-13T06:31:32  <mleise> I don't even know what Killzone is ^^
2012-11-13T06:31:49  <mleise> But I've seen people code bots for Half-Life 1
2012-11-13T06:32:36  <mleise> Those were deathmatch bots, though. So there wasn't much more than run for the next item while shooting everything on sight.
2012-11-13T06:33:23  <mleise> Well and some "cover the whole map to find the player" logic. Ok ... granted, they were quite sophisticated.
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2012-11-13T06:35:18  <ramn[work]> I don't think there should be a limit to one thread
2012-11-13T06:35:24  <ramn[work]> the future is multithreaded
2012-11-13T06:35:31  <ramn[work]> it should be encouraged rather
2012-11-13T06:41:01  <mleise> ramn[work]: when you cannot measure the CPU time, a bot that uses several CPU cores can imbalance the match. It has more CPU time and drains the opponents CPU time.
2012-11-13T06:43:22  <mleise> I don't remember the details, but Windows used to not count time slices that weren't fully used. So if a bot always 'yields' after <4ms CPU usage, it goes under the radar.
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2012-11-13T06:43:53  <mcstar> you want to provide equal resources to bots
2012-11-13T06:44:10  <mcstar> so, it doesnt make sense to provide more threads
2012-11-13T06:44:33  <mcstar> just limit it to 1 thread, and increase the turn per time as necessary
2012-11-13T06:44:47  <mcstar> (or a similar measaure of computational work)
2012-11-13T06:46:22  <mleise> this Killzone game looks somewhat addictive. I would just hate to control a shooter with an analog stick. Even in the release trailer the player can't aim.
2012-11-13T06:46:46  <mcstar> mleise: how about, we form a team for aisandbox?
2012-11-13T06:47:03  <mleise> mcstar: lol, that's what I wanted to ask you this morning
2012-11-13T06:47:10  <mcstar> :)
2012-11-13T06:47:22  <mleise> But then I though... well it is Python. I'd have to learn it.
2012-11-13T06:47:53  <mcstar> im not a python wizard, but i know enough
2012-11-13T06:47:55  <mleise> And how do we coordinate our efforts?
2012-11-13T06:48:02  <mcstar> CB radio
2012-11-13T06:48:04  <mleise> Everyone writes one strategy
2012-11-13T06:48:06  <mleise> ?
2012-11-13T06:48:10  <mcstar> oh
2012-11-13T06:48:12  <mcstar> idk
2012-11-13T06:48:20  <mcstar> it just occurred to me
2012-11-13T06:48:26  <mcstar> i have to think about it :)
2012-11-13T06:48:55  <mleise> Let's trick Accoun into playing it and shoot his bot to pieces.
2012-11-13T06:49:07  <mcstar> i dont care about accoun
2012-11-13T06:49:22  <mcstar> his funny when he is serious, a good laugh, thats all
2012-11-13T06:49:27  <mcstar> he's*
2012-11-13T06:49:48  <mleise> alright, so let's just shoot random bots
2012-11-13T06:50:33  <mcstar> mleise: also, must we use python? is that the only option?
2012-11-13T06:50:54  <mleise> no, there will be a C++ starter release in a few days
2012-11-13T06:51:15  <mcstar> id prefer python then
2012-11-13T06:51:30  <mleise> we can also write our own network code and use any language
2012-11-13T06:51:33  <phildunstan> mleise mcstar: which languages would you prefer?
2012-11-13T06:51:41  <mcstar> haskell
2012-11-13T06:51:43  <mleise> phildunstan: D
2012-11-13T06:51:48  <mleise> heh
2012-11-13T06:51:50  <phildunstan> we're interested in working with people to support additional languges
2012-11-13T06:52:08  <mleise> phildunstan: if we work as a team we will use Python eventually
2012-11-13T06:52:34  <mcstar> yeah, if we were a team, python would be great
2012-11-13T06:53:16  <mleise> most of the regulars here are veterans of writing starter kits though ^^
2012-11-13T06:53:57  <mleise> does the sandbox run under wine ?
2012-11-13T06:54:13  <mcstar> it doesnt run natively on linux?
2012-11-13T06:54:16  <mcstar> oh noes
2012-11-13T06:57:45  <mcstar> lol
2012-11-13T06:57:53  <mcstar> capture the fag
2012-11-13T07:02:03  <mleise> the linux support is on the way, like the c++ support
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2012-11-13T07:24:24  <mleise> looks like I have to recompile wine with libxml2 support, so VS2010 runtime can install and the sandbox can launch
2012-11-13T07:28:29  <mcstar> mleise: are you kidding?
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2012-11-13T07:28:41  <mleise> unfortunately not :-/
2012-11-13T07:28:45  <mcstar> just install a windows in a wm
2012-11-13T07:29:10  <mleise> I don't know how that works, and also I have Vista installed
2012-11-13T07:29:22  <mcstar> then? problem solved
2012-11-13T07:29:36  <mcstar> mleise: it works great, btw
2012-11-13T07:29:39  <mleise> hmm, devlop on windows ?
2012-11-13T07:29:46  <mcstar> xp and win7 are both very fast in virtualbox
2012-11-13T07:30:05  <mleise> alright, but I'll need Direct3D
2012-11-13T07:30:18  <mcstar> thats ok
2012-11-13T07:30:30  <mcstar> virtualbox even has wddm driver for aero
2012-11-13T07:30:48  <tsc> I will definitely check out this aisandbox thing, but I will wait for c++ support.
2012-11-13T07:31:05  <mcstar> also, i didnt say you should develop on windows
2012-11-13T07:31:21  <mcstar> just run your thingy on windows(if there is no linux version)
2012-11-13T07:31:28  <tsc> The interface is just a network protocol right?
2012-11-13T07:31:34  <mcstar> idk
2012-11-13T07:31:43  <mleise> hmm, they lauch the sandbox from a script. I don't know yet
2012-11-13T07:31:44  <tsc> I beleive so
2012-11-13T07:31:58  <mleise> tsc: I know what you want to say
2012-11-13T07:32:07  <mleise> use windows to start the server and linux to connect
2012-11-13T07:32:15  <mcstar> mleise: there is a beta download for linux
2012-11-13T07:32:23  <mleise> what ? where ?
2012-11-13T07:32:29  <mcstar> http://aisandbox.com/download/linux/
2012-11-13T07:32:42  <tsc> Well personally I don't care what platforms it runs on
2012-11-13T07:32:48  <mleise> oh great now, why don't you say that earlier ;)
2012-11-13T07:32:55  <mcstar> well, i care
2012-11-13T07:33:04  <mcstar> it is a pita to do anything on windows
2012-11-13T07:33:21  <mcstar> i only installed it to compile a program for windows users
2012-11-13T07:33:23  <mleise> libois ? never heard of that. I hope I have it on my box
2012-11-13T07:34:01  <mleise> well, VisualStudio is great, so that makes up for some of the pain
2012-11-13T07:34:10  <mcstar> oh, and the mathematica notebook is faster and more responsive on windows, even in the virtual machine, than the native qt frontend on linux :(
2012-11-13T07:34:18  <mcstar> wha a effing big shame, really
2012-11-13T07:34:22  <mcstar> what*
2012-11-13T07:34:37  <tsc> Yey, my ants bot seems to be consistently beating xathis in 1v1 now. Not doing too shabby in multiplayer games either
2012-11-13T07:35:12  <mcstar> great, now you can start writing for aisandbox
2012-11-13T07:35:19  <mleise> haha
2012-11-13T07:35:29  <mleise> let's see if it works first
2012-11-13T07:35:45  <tsc> Need either interface documentation or c++ support first, I can't write in python :p
2012-11-13T07:36:02  <mleise> So what, learn it ^^
2012-11-13T07:36:08  <mcstar> it is dead simple
2012-11-13T07:36:14  <mcstar> thats the charm
2012-11-13T07:37:01  <mcstar> im gonna make a text interface in python right now
2012-11-13T07:37:01  <tsc> well, if im going to code anything good, it's best to do it in a language i am already familiar with :)
2012-11-13T07:37:08  <mcstar> i need it for my job scheduler
2012-11-13T07:37:43  <tsc> the deadline for aisandbox is like 10th of december or something I think i saw on the site
2012-11-13T07:37:45  <mcstar> tsc: bad argument, but i followed it too, i started Ants with common lisp, and changed to c++ :(
2012-11-13T07:38:03  <tsc> It is sort of a bad argument, but meh
2012-11-13T07:38:06  <mcstar> yeah, around that
2012-11-13T07:38:28  <mcstar> i think they are going to expand it, eventually
2012-11-13T07:38:39  <mcstar> (well, that is my expectation)
2012-11-13T07:39:28  <mcstar> beautiful interfaces http://excess.org/urwid/examples.html
2012-11-13T07:40:31  <tsc> I'm interested to see what this whole no micromanagement thing is about
2012-11-13T07:40:44  <tsc> might be interesting
2012-11-13T07:40:59  <mleise> micromanagement ? where ?
2012-11-13T07:41:23  <tsc> aisandbox, supposedly you just program the commander and the bots sort of move on their own or something?
2012-11-13T07:41:24  <mcstar> you dont have to instruct the bots, how to battle, how to move, like that
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2012-11-13T07:41:45  <mleise> so isn't that macromanagement then :) ?
2012-11-13T07:42:02  <mleise> ah *no* micromanagement is what you said
2012-11-13T07:42:02  <tsc> I couldn't really say
2012-11-13T07:42:09  <mcstar> macromenegemtn here, is that you just tell them do what when and where
2012-11-13T07:42:10  <mleise> sorry
2012-11-13T07:42:18  <tsc> nice typing
2012-11-13T07:42:21  <mcstar> 'macromenegemtn'
2012-11-13T07:42:25  <mcstar> wtf
2012-11-13T07:45:18  <mleise> so what IDE to use for Python ...
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2012-11-13T07:45:30  <mcstar> emacs
2012-11-13T07:45:34  <mleise> O.o
2012-11-13T07:45:55  <mcstar> actually, it really is an ide
2012-11-13T07:45:58  <mleise> I ask for an IDE and you come with an operating system
2012-11-13T07:46:04  <mcstar> there are a lot of python 'plugins'
2012-11-13T07:46:14  <mcstar> but i dont use them :(
2012-11-13T07:46:35  <ramn[work]> mleise: yes provided the bots share CPU. If running over the network one shouldn't restrict multiple cpu use
2012-11-13T07:46:47  <mcstar> why not?
2012-11-13T07:46:58  <mleise> ramn[work]: that was never planned
2012-11-13T07:47:25  <mleise> sure you can do what you want on your computer when you run bots via tcp server
2012-11-13T07:47:38  <mcstar> what good is it, to make your bot multi threaded, when in the real contest, you would be restricted to 1 thread?
2012-11-13T07:48:26  <mcstar> by using way more resources then on the contest server, you only fool youreself
2012-11-13T07:48:30  <mcstar> yourself*
2012-11-13T07:49:26  <mcstar> anyway, chromium is annoying
2012-11-13T07:49:53  <mcstar> when i switch to it, a lot of times, the window turns white, and i cant see anything
2012-11-13T07:50:15  <mcstar> i have to do something with the content to be redisplayed
2012-11-13T07:50:25  <tsc> Chromium is a browser?
2012-11-13T07:50:34  <mcstar> yes
2012-11-13T07:50:42  <tsc> Uh, is it Chrome?
2012-11-13T07:50:42  <mcstar> on which chrome is based
2012-11-13T07:50:51  <tsc> oh, I see
2012-11-13T07:51:42  <tsc> So why not use chrome?
2012-11-13T07:52:13  <mcstar> why use chrome?
2012-11-13T07:52:27  <mcstar> i said, chrome is based on chromium
2012-11-13T07:52:35  <smiley1983> chrome has extra google branding, and flash pre-installed
2012-11-13T07:52:41  <mcstar> basically, it adds an auto updater, and a new icon
2012-11-13T07:52:48  <mcstar> and automatic statistics gathering
2012-11-13T07:53:03  <mcstar> smiley1983: chromium has built in flash too
2012-11-13T07:53:18  <tsc> Was just wondering about their differences :)
2012-11-13T07:53:21  <smiley1983> I used chromium for a while and eventually switched back to Firefox for proper adblock and flashblock
2012-11-13T07:53:44  <mcstar> i dont have a problem with it, except this 'bug'
2012-11-13T07:53:51  <mcstar> doesnt play well with a tiling wm
2012-11-13T07:54:35  <mcstar> smiley1983: adblock and flashblock work very well with chromium
2012-11-13T07:54:51  <mcstar> i use them both, too
2012-11-13T07:54:59  <smiley1983> clearly I just didn't set it up properly :)
2012-11-13T07:55:25  <mcstar> there is a right click menu item, so you can block ads easily
2012-11-13T07:55:44  <mcstar> and flashblock has a whitelist
2012-11-13T07:56:04  <smiley1983> I also thought it was eating up way too much RAM, but then I realized that having loads of tabs of modern webpages just does that.
2012-11-13T07:56:13  <mcstar> :)
2012-11-13T07:56:21  <mcstar> yeah
2012-11-13T07:56:37  <mcstar> i was making a jqplot demo, display a plot of some random data
2012-11-13T07:56:53  <mcstar> i could see with each plot, how the memory occupation of chromium was increasing
2012-11-13T07:57:16  <mcstar> around 26% system memory, it decided to GC
2012-11-13T07:57:20  <mcstar> :(
2012-11-13T08:01:19  <mcstar> ok, starting firefox, i cant take this..
2012-11-13T08:02:30  <mcstar> smiley1983: for me, chromium has a better js performance, at least for js ui applications
2012-11-13T08:02:44  <mcstar> menus and stuff were always more responsive
2012-11-13T08:03:39  <mcstar> oh, and chromium introduced first the menu-less interface
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2012-11-13T08:04:17  <mcstar> i.e. reach all the menu functions under a single buttom, that doesnt take up much space
2012-11-13T08:04:35  <smiley1983> The aisandbox linux package does run in a VM, but it is very slow on my on-board graphics card
2012-11-13T08:05:00  <mcstar> vm?
2012-11-13T08:05:15  <mcstar> do you run linux in a wm?
2012-11-13T08:05:38  <smiley1983> mcstar: chromium definitely had much better js support when I first switched away from firefox (during planet wars), and I've reconfigured my firefox menus to be very much like chromium\
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2012-11-13T08:05:56  <smiley1983> I run ubuntu in a virtual machine because I run arch on the real hardware
2012-11-13T08:06:13  <mcstar> probably you dont have 3d accel
2012-11-13T08:06:21  <smiley1983> probably not
2012-11-13T08:06:33  <mcstar> virtualbox has drivers for that too, for ubuntu
2012-11-13T08:06:38  <mcstar> iirc
2012-11-13T08:07:03  <mcstar> i think, my unity desktop is accelerated
2012-11-13T08:07:11  <mcstar> in the vm
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2012-11-13T08:07:47  <ramn[work]> mcstar: I would like the real tournament to allow multiple cpu use
2012-11-13T08:07:58  <mcstar> but why???
2012-11-13T08:08:01  <mcstar> i cant understand that
2012-11-13T08:08:08  <mcstar> give me some solid argument
2012-11-13T08:08:57  <ramn[work]> It's not a funky "experimental" feature of programming
2012-11-13T08:09:03  <ramn[work]> it's quite normal
2012-11-13T08:09:13  <mcstar> no it isnt
2012-11-13T08:09:24  <ramn[work]> in some languages it is
2012-11-13T08:09:40  <mcstar> the servers that run the game, have to provide equal resources to each contestant
2012-11-13T08:09:40  <ramn[work]> In scala you could be using threads without being very explicit about it
2012-11-13T08:09:53  <ramn[work]> yes then the bots should run over the network
2012-11-13T08:10:03  <ramn[work]> in that way I like the ants tcp solution
2012-11-13T08:10:22  <mcstar> but that cannot be used to rank the bots in the real contest
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2012-11-13T08:10:30  <smiley1983> mcstar: any idea what these drivers might be listed under? searching for subsets of 'xorg video virtualbox' and a few other terms doesn't yield anything promising (searching 'virtualbox video' yields nothing at all)
2012-11-13T08:10:32  <ramn[work]> some languages are "slower" but might provide better multithreading abstractions
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2012-11-13T08:10:46  <mcstar> smiley1983: a minute, im firing it up
2012-11-13T08:10:47  <ramn[work]> then I'd prefer the unofficial contest
2012-11-13T08:11:18  <smiley1983> I noted that this 'tbb2' library has no installation candidate for arch, even in aur
2012-11-13T08:12:14  <smiley1983> ramn[work]: there are all sorts of restrictions created by the central-server model, I like the TCP alternative for that freedom :)
2012-11-13T08:12:28  <mcstar> ramn[work]: you dont understand, you dont need multithreading, you can give bots a bigger timeslice!
2012-11-13T08:12:57  <mcstar> you still have to run a massive amount of bots in parallel, on the contest servers
2012-11-13T08:13:25  <smiley1983> mcstar: but multithreading is being built into many languages as a core feature, and people want to make use of it
2012-11-13T08:13:31  <mcstar> the solution is not to rewrite the bots to be multi thread aware, notwithstanding who easy/difficult it is
2012-11-13T08:13:43  <mcstar> you can still use concurrency
2012-11-13T08:13:51  <mcstar> you dont have to use multiple threads for that
2012-11-13T08:14:31  <smiley1983> Of course, I'm aware that it's impractical to offer multithreading to the bots now, but maybe one day, allocating eight processors per bot will seem like a reasonable proposition
2012-11-13T08:14:53  <smiley1983> gets rid of problems like Java wanting to spawn lots of threads whether or not they get used
2012-11-13T08:15:03  <ramn[work]> mcstar: Ok I see your point of view. But in some languages some concepts are based on threads, that couldn't be replaced with bigger time slice
2012-11-13T08:15:58  <mcstar> like what?
2012-11-13T08:16:11  <ramn[work]> futures perhaps
2012-11-13T08:17:13  <mcstar> no
2012-11-13T08:17:19  <mcstar> that is a concurrency feature
2012-11-13T08:18:05  <ramn[work]> what do you mean
2012-11-13T08:18:41  <mcstar> smiley1983: glxgears, fullscreen runs nicely, synched to 60Hz vsync
2012-11-13T08:18:56  <tsc> smiley1983: I agree that it sounds reasonable allocating eg. 8 processors per bot and allowing multithreads
2012-11-13T08:18:58  <mcstar> ramn[work]: what do *you* mean?
2012-11-13T08:19:31  <mcstar> smiley1983: vboxvideo is the module
2012-11-13T08:20:15  <ramn[work]> perhaps the developer doesn't want to care about exactly how many threads are started
2012-11-13T08:20:18  <mcstar> i think it comes with the kernle
2012-11-13T08:20:57  <mcstar> smiley1983: what is your vm? im using virtualbox, you just have to tick the 3D option, and assign enough vram
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2012-11-13T08:21:30  <smiley1983> aha, that'll be the problem, settings in virtualbox - thanks!
2012-11-13T08:22:00  <tsc> Okay, I installed some ai sandbox installer thingie, it said installation finished, uh what now
2012-11-13T08:22:17  <tsc> I hate installers, why can't they just give me the files in an archive or something
2012-11-13T08:22:17  <smiley1983> there should be a 'simulate' script
2012-11-13T08:22:29  <tsc> Well where the hell did it put the thing?
2012-11-13T08:22:35  <tsc> Maybe I should read the instructions...
2012-11-13T08:23:44  <mleise> _finally_ I got all dependencies installed. had an orphan libstdc++ that caused a problem
2012-11-13T08:23:48  <tsc> Yeah, that helped, nevermind me
2012-11-13T08:24:20  <mcstar> why would you want 8 processors per bot?
2012-11-13T08:24:21  <mleise> I have the little red and blue guys chasing flags already
2012-11-13T08:24:26  <mcstar> 1 core is fast enough
2012-11-13T08:25:49  <tsc> I feel multithreading isn't necessary or even helpful in solving most problems in AI, so there would be no need I guess
2012-11-13T08:25:50  <tsc> Maybe I'm wrong
2012-11-13T08:25:58  <mcstar> you are right
2012-11-13T08:26:17  <mcstar> as i said, you can still write your program in a concurrent way...
2012-11-13T08:26:28  <mcstar> if thats what you want...do it
2012-11-13T08:26:40  <mcstar> but you should not get unequal resources
2012-11-13T08:26:40  <mleise> hey they have no weapons! how do they kill each other? by looking mean ?
2012-11-13T08:26:48  <mcstar> mleise: probably
2012-11-13T08:26:54  <mcstar> light-of-sight kills
2012-11-13T08:26:56  <mcstar> line*
2012-11-13T08:27:16  <mcstar> actually, the kill radius is less than the view radius
2012-11-13T08:27:24  <mleise> i know
2012-11-13T08:27:25  <tsc> They look like robots or something, probably built-in eye lasers
2012-11-13T08:27:29  <mcstar> and you can set your bots to not auto engage
2012-11-13T08:27:44  <mleise> really ?
2012-11-13T08:27:53  <mleise> I though just run without shooting
2012-11-13T08:27:53  <mcstar> yeah, eye lasers, for sure
2012-11-13T08:28:02  <mcstar> :)
2012-11-13T08:28:52  <tsc> Could be some phychic powers too. Telepathy or whatever
2012-11-13T08:28:52  <mleise> the run animation looks funny. like they want to leap over something with every step
2012-11-13T08:28:57  <tsc> If so I want a mind-control option
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2012-11-13T08:29:24  <mleise> Yuri from C&C ?
2012-11-13T08:29:44  <mleise> oh I'm so gonna try a line formation now
2012-11-13T08:29:45  <tsc> Hah, that brings back memories :)
2012-11-13T08:30:03  <mleise> bad if your opponent had lots of Yuri clones
2012-11-13T08:30:42  <mleise> so standing always wins against walking, right ?
2012-11-13T08:31:29  <mcstar> i forgot to eat today
2012-11-13T08:32:57  <tsc> Is there some advantage to walking instead of running?
2012-11-13T08:33:06  <mleise> phildunstan: are the config.cfg options explained somewhere ? I'm interested in "Fixed Pipeline Enabled" and the options to "RTT Preferred Mode"
2012-11-13T08:33:34  <tsc> Aren't those just related to rendering
2012-11-13T08:34:14  <mleise> tsc: sure, I never start any game until it is properly configured :)
2012-11-13T08:34:41  <ramn[work]> tsc: there is a delay before they start shooting
2012-11-13T08:34:47  <ramn[work]> which is longer if they are running
2012-11-13T08:34:52  <tsc> I guess they have to stop before they shoot
2012-11-13T08:35:21  <tsc> This is probably explained somewhere, I could just go read about it
2012-11-13T08:36:01  <ramn[work]> shoot delay = a constant + time to turn around to face enemy + time to stop moving
2012-11-13T08:36:03  <tsc> But asking is easier. Is there a reason the whole thing is 3d? Seems like 2d would work just fine
2012-11-13T08:36:12  <ramn[work]> fun to watch
2012-11-13T08:36:31  <mleise> you can actually move to ground level
2012-11-13T08:36:42  <tsc> Then is there a key to reset to top-down view, I'm finding the camera controls awkward >.<
2012-11-13T08:36:43  <mleise> see the map from the side
2012-11-13T08:36:56  <mleise> especially the mouse controls ^^
2012-11-13T08:37:06  <mleise> like ... written by a console game programmer
2012-11-13T08:37:21  <tsc> Oh man, the F keys brings up a whole lot of ... lines and stuff
2012-11-13T08:37:37  <tsc> And makes it very laggy
2012-11-13T08:38:26  <mleise> F doesn't do anything for me on Linux
2012-11-13T08:38:42  <tsc> F3, F4?
2012-11-13T08:39:13  <mleise> HOME = reset camera
2012-11-13T08:39:35  <mleise> nope, no F3, F4
2012-11-13T08:39:36  <tsc> Ah, thanks. F1 seems to bring up the pathing lines
2012-11-13T08:40:28  <tsc> Actually all the F keys up to F10 do something
2012-11-13T08:40:32  <mleise> F12 = suspicious pause ... must be the screenshot mode
2012-11-13T08:41:05  <tsc> No noticable pause for me, but maybe my computer is just too beast :p
2012-11-13T08:41:31  <tsc> Uh, The whole thing just crashed when i hit page down, however
2012-11-13T08:42:06  <tsc> Straight-up segfault in python? Maybe it's not so beast...
2012-11-13T08:42:07  <mcstar> no, that is the quit key
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2012-11-13T08:52:21  <mleise> in any case it is taking quite a while to load
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2012-11-13T09:18:48  <mleise> lol I hacked the game
2012-11-13T09:19:34  <mleise> issue an order every tick and the bots will run to the upper left corner, even through crates
2012-11-13T09:20:36  <tsc> Sounds like something they should have encountered already
2012-11-13T09:20:54  <tsc> Wouldn't most bots issue orders every tick?
2012-11-13T09:22:36  <tsc> gcc just crashed in 4 different ways, the last of which was spamming "/usr/lib/gcc/x86_64-pc-linux-gnu/4.6.3/include/g++-v4/bits/basic_string.tcc:863:3: error: expected 'template'" in an endless loop
2012-11-13T09:22:48  <tsc> I think my RAM is faulty...
2012-11-13T09:23:16  <mcstar> run a memcheck
2012-11-13T09:23:47  <tsc> That would require a reboot!
2012-11-13T09:23:56  <mcstar> yes
2012-11-13T09:24:07  <tsc> I am much too lazy
2012-11-13T09:24:31  <tsc> Ah, it went through now. If it doesn't work, try again until it does
2012-11-13T09:24:54  <mcstar> arent you worried about your data?
2012-11-13T09:25:38  <tsc> Well it's not like faulty ram is going to sporadically delete my files or anything
2012-11-13T09:26:18  <mcstar> who knows
2012-11-13T09:26:45  <mleise> if-elif, no booleans ...
2012-11-13T09:27:00  <mcstar> mleise: what do you mean?
2012-11-13T09:27:37  <tsc> uh, shell scripts? >.<
2012-11-13T09:27:48  <mleise> Python
2012-11-13T09:27:55  <mleise> I cannot write true or false
2012-11-13T09:28:07  <mcstar> True False
2012-11-13T09:28:23  <tsc> Seems easy enough for me
2012-11-13T09:30:17  <mcstar> shells have booleans too
2012-11-13T09:30:25  <tsc> >>> Emerging (1 of 7) media-libs/ilmbase-1.0.2 Segmentation fault
2012-11-13T09:30:36  <tsc> Didn't even start to compile that time
2012-11-13T09:32:27  <tsc> Rebooted the thing in vmware, better now yey. Wish I could just tell Windows to use some other physical addresses or something.. Those weren't working so well
2012-11-13T09:33:20  <tsc> Or tell Linux for that matter
2012-11-13T09:33:23  <mcstar> just throw the faulty ram away, if thats the problem
2012-11-13T09:34:27  <tsc> Yes. I might try removing a stick next time I bluescreen :D
2012-11-13T09:36:48  <tsc> Yey, I got the aisandbox up and running on linux. Didn't even know this X server on windows had opengl support
2012-11-13T09:37:00  <tsc> Now I can try running the thing under lupa so I can write a bot in lua!
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2012-11-13T09:43:26  <mleise> I had faulty ram and detected that through emerge as well
2012-11-13T09:43:42  <mleise> was when I just got my laptop
2012-11-13T09:44:32  <mleise> oh jesus, half a minute of game server loading time just to find out I had a bug in my python code
2012-11-13T09:45:34  <mcstar> are you sure you have to restart the server every time?
2012-11-13T09:45:52  <mcstar> doesnt make sense, if the whole thing is netzwerk'd
2012-11-13T09:47:24  <tsc> It does seem to take a long while to load
2012-11-13T09:47:51  <mleise> I bet they use the same text IO that we used for our contests :p
2012-11-13T09:48:00  <mcstar> they use json
2012-11-13T09:48:15  <tsc> Wouldn't it be fast then? :)
2012-11-13T09:48:22  <mcstar> that doesnt matter
2012-11-13T09:49:06  <mcstar> the startup time is long, according to mleise, but i dont think you havet to actually quit the server to load a new bot
2012-11-13T09:49:13  <mcstar> at least, it doesnt make the least sense to me
2012-11-13T09:49:27  <tsc> Can I use both " and ' for strings in python?
2012-11-13T09:49:35  <mcstar> they are the same
2012-11-13T09:49:49  <mcstar> """ ... """ is for literal strings
2012-11-13T09:49:53  <tsc> Surely I can't start with " and finish with '? :p
2012-11-13T09:50:06  <mcstar> and there is @"" too
2012-11-13T09:51:14  <mcstar> r, not @
2012-11-13T09:51:19  <mcstar> idk where i got that from
2012-11-13T09:52:43  <tsc> r""? what does that do?
2012-11-13T09:53:04  <mcstar> escapes \ for you
2012-11-13T09:53:14  <mcstar> so that you dont have to write it escaped
2012-11-13T09:53:34  <tsc> What does the r stand for?
2012-11-13T09:53:50  <mcstar> regurgitation
2012-11-13T09:54:08  <tsc> That is very strange
2012-11-13T09:54:31  <mcstar> yeah, my humor is sometimes that
2012-11-13T09:54:43  <tsc> ;p
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2012-11-13T10:11:15  <tsc> God damnit, I was struggling trying to get this lua python wrapper thing to work, couldn't figure out why it didn't act like the documentation stated
2012-11-13T10:11:27  <tsc> Then I learned I had somehow downloaded version 0.9 instead of 0.20
2012-11-13T10:12:41  <mcstar> python could have been perfect(in a sense) if it had a jit from the beginning
2012-11-13T10:13:00  <tsc> Anyways, now it works. So now I can use lua instead of python. I guess the next is to write a C module for lua so I can write in c++ instead, haha
2012-11-13T10:13:24  <tsc> This feels wrong
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2012-11-13T10:14:10  <tsc> Python runs in a vm?
2012-11-13T10:15:20  <mcstar> on a vm, yes
2012-11-13T10:15:31  <tsc> Then there must be some jit implementations?
2012-11-13T10:15:36  <mcstar> a bytecode interpreter or whatnot
2012-11-13T10:15:42  <mcstar> pypy
2012-11-13T10:15:54  <mcstar> but that is quite recent, and not fully compatible
2012-11-13T10:16:08  <tsc> I see
2012-11-13T10:16:14  <mcstar> i think luajit can run all lua code
2012-11-13T10:16:28  <tsc> As far as I know
2012-11-13T10:16:51  <tsc> 100% ABI compatible with C modules too; which is almost more important when it comes to lua
2012-11-13T10:16:53  <mleise> great visibleEnemies[0] returns Character instead of BotInfo
2012-11-13T10:19:39  <tsc> luajit also adds some nifty features like ffi, which allows using c structures/types and calling c functions and such
2012-11-13T10:19:47  <tsc> if you really need performance
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2012-11-13T10:57:55  <mcstar> 'Frame' object has no attribute 'rows'
2012-11-13T10:58:09  <mcstar> thanks, helpful
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2012-11-13T11:31:05  <mcstar> mleise: well, how are you doing?
2012-11-13T11:31:29  <mcstar> wrt your virtual robots..
2012-11-13T11:31:52  <mleise> I wonder if I should just wait for the networked version and use D, doh
2012-11-13T11:32:14  <mcstar> is python that bad?
2012-11-13T11:32:39  <mleise> no, but I have to learn so much about it first. like how to use list comprehensions, how to debug, etc.
2012-11-13T11:32:55  <mcstar> debug with a print
2012-11-13T11:33:00  <mcstar> list comprehensions are easy
2012-11-13T11:33:15  <mleise> also why is the damn random bot killing my bot like sitting ducks
2012-11-13T11:33:32  <mcstar> [<expr with var> for var in <iterator> if condition]
2012-11-13T11:33:48  <mcstar> idk
2012-11-13T11:33:56  <mcstar> maybe your bot is that bad? XD
2012-11-13T11:34:38  <mcstar> mleise: do you fire back?
2012-11-13T11:34:59  <smiley1983> I'm not quite clear on what this networked version is - does it mean it will be possible to develop bots without getting their software running locally?
2012-11-13T11:35:28  <mleise> smiley1983: I expect it to be like a local tcp server rather
2012-11-13T11:35:39  <mleise> so you can code your bot in any language
2012-11-13T11:36:06  <mcstar> mleise: look at my neat gui: http://i.imgur.com/WKoK9.png
2012-11-13T11:36:08  <mleise> jesus, my bot stands there holding the flag waiting to get shot, wtf!
2012-11-13T11:36:39  <mleise> beautiful, but I have other problems
2012-11-13T11:37:03  <mcstar> yeah, you are being slaughtered by a random bot XD
2012-11-13T11:37:23  <mcstar> what is random about it, btw?
2012-11-13T11:37:26  <smiley1983> I've pretty much given up on running the linux version of the software - works very slowly in the VM even with vboxvideo (but I have onboard graphics, so it's not surprising). Segfaults on my xubuntu 12.04 running natively.
2012-11-13T11:37:44  <mcstar> i think ill give it a try
2012-11-13T11:38:04  <mleise> segfaults ? I had one with it today, but they seem to be  sparse and inbetween
2012-11-13T11:38:41  <mleise> nooo don't stand with the flag in the enemy base , arrrr
2012-11-13T11:38:44  <smiley1983> Mine was during the (black) loading screen, happened twice in a row and I didn't test further
2012-11-13T11:40:12  <smiley1983> I might have another look when the networked version is out, hoping it will run on Arch
2012-11-13T11:40:43  <mcstar> smiley1983: whats this libtbb2?
2012-11-13T11:41:29  <mcstar> ah
2012-11-13T11:41:45  <mcstar> threading building blocks
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2012-11-13T11:45:34  <smiley1983> I built it from source, but attempting to run it directly on Arch indicated that it wasn't getting that far
2012-11-13T11:45:48  <smiley1983> 'it' being tbb2 in this case
2012-11-13T11:46:20  <smiley1983> in the first case, rather. The second 'it' was aisandbox
2012-11-13T11:46:46  <phildunstan> smiley1983: is there any extra information available on the crash in xubuntu 12.04?
2012-11-13T11:47:04  <phildunstan> sorry, wasn't paying attention to this room, was in #gameai
2012-11-13T11:47:15  <mcstar> 11 people are killed, 40 injured
2012-11-13T11:48:13  <smiley1983> phildunstan: I think it just said "Segmentation fault" and dumped me out into the terminal. I can check tomorrow; I'll be heading to bed soon.
2012-11-13T11:49:05  <phildunstan> ok, thanks. email team at aigamedev.com if you want us to follow up on it. we don't officially support xubuntu but if it is not too difficult we will try to fix it
2012-11-13T11:49:29  <phildunstan> smiley1983: is it 32-bit or 64
2012-11-13T11:49:58  <mcstar> yay working
2012-11-13T11:50:07  <mcstar> fast
2012-11-13T11:50:14  <mcstar> and loaded quite quickly
2012-11-13T11:50:33  <mcstar> navigation is weird
2012-11-13T11:50:36  <smiley1983> ha, that's a good point, it may be 32 for all I know. It runs in 64bit xubuntu 12.04 in the virtual machine, so I'd say you've got things working correctly there
2012-11-13T11:51:08  <smiley1983> mcstar: congrats :) I'm guessing this is in a VM, not Arch?
2012-11-13T11:51:15  <mcstar> arch
2012-11-13T11:51:27  <smiley1983> How? :)
2012-11-13T11:51:37  <mcstar> idk
2012-11-13T11:51:41  <smiley1983> lol
2012-11-13T11:51:45  <mcstar> i installed the dependencies
2012-11-13T11:51:52  <mcstar> switched to python2
2012-11-13T11:51:54  <mcstar> and voila
2012-11-13T11:51:55  <smiley1983> how did you get tbb2?
2012-11-13T11:52:06  <mcstar> it is int extra
2012-11-13T11:52:22  <mcstar> extra/intel-tbb
2012-11-13T11:53:02  <smiley1983> how right you are, I completely missed it
2012-11-13T11:53:10  <mcstar> anyway, it works great, but that right-click navigation is really bad
2012-11-13T11:55:24  <mcstar> function keys dont seem to have an effect
2012-11-13T11:55:39  <smiley1983> mcstar: thanks! I'd neglected to use python2. It's still a bit slow on my lack of graphics card, but much faster; looks like it might be workable
2012-11-13T11:55:44  <mcstar> i expected at least a console :(
2012-11-13T11:55:54  <phildunstan> smiley1983: we are creating a 32-bit package at the moment, not quite finished yet
2012-11-13T11:56:14  <mcstar> phildunstan: why isnt there a console?
2012-11-13T11:56:16  <mcstar> or something similar?
2012-11-13T11:56:21  <mcstar> how do you control the server?
2012-11-13T11:56:29  <mcstar> or launch bot scripts?
2012-11-13T11:56:44  <smiley1983> phildunstan: it turns out it runs on Arch (my native system) with help from mcstar, which is great
2012-11-13T11:56:54  <smiley1983> I had tried before and failed
2012-11-13T11:56:57  <mcstar> smiley1983: 'who is great', not which
2012-11-13T11:57:08  <mcstar> XD
2012-11-13T11:57:14  <smiley1983> lol, yes, you're great too
2012-11-13T11:57:19  <mcstar> j/k
2012-11-13T11:57:28  <smiley1983> :)
2012-11-13T11:57:56  <phildunstan> mcstar: function keys are broken on linux, we will chase that up as it enables all of the cool visualizations
2012-11-13T11:58:19  <mcstar> it takes 11 seconds to start the simulatoin
2012-11-13T11:58:33  <smiley1983> If the system displaying the game is lagging, does that mean the AI timeslices will be messed up?
2012-11-13T11:58:41  <smiley1983> since it is realtime
2012-11-13T11:58:46  <mcstar> phildunstan: ok, but what i am more interested in, is how do you control the whole show?
2012-11-13T11:59:01  <phildunstan> mcstar: we think we can speed up the simulation starting, its been low priority though
2012-11-13T11:59:04  <mcstar> or, is one of the function keys supposed to bring up a console?
2012-11-13T11:59:21  <tsc> There are no timeslices, right? How often is the tick function called? Or how often does it try to call it?
2012-11-13T11:59:41  <mcstar> there must be timeslices
2012-11-13T12:00:08  <mcstar> is it an event loop or turn based(i.e. timeslices)?
2012-11-13T12:00:27  <phildunstan> mcstar: restarting the simulation each time. We could support reloading levels and commanders without restarting but that is way down on the task list
2012-11-13T12:00:44  <mcstar> i see :(
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2012-11-13T12:01:06  <phildunstan> no console
2012-11-13T12:01:09  <phildunstan> no timeslices
2012-11-13T12:01:42  <phildunstan> commanders will be sent the gameinfo periodically (probably 10Hz or similiar)
2012-11-13T12:01:55  <phildunstan> commands will be run when they are received from the commanders
2012-11-13T12:01:57  <mcstar> thats a timeslice
2012-11-13T12:02:20  <phildunstan> commanders can take as long as they like, but only on 1 thread
2012-11-13T12:02:31  <mcstar> the other option, is to make a commander part of an eventloop, so it would be aware of changes as they happen
2012-11-13T12:02:47  <smiley1983> so if the game is not running at the proper speed, what happens to the AI? Do they get extra time, less time, the proper amount?
2012-11-13T12:02:57  <mcstar> oh, no time constraint?
2012-11-13T12:03:07  <tsc> I imagine if the game is running slower, they get more time
2012-11-13T12:03:11  <phildunstan> you can use the arrow keys if you don't like the mouse camera control
2012-11-13T12:03:45  <mcstar> smiley1983: segfault
2012-11-13T12:04:00  <phildunstan> The game will be locked at (probably) 30fps for the competition, so the AI time should be constant
2012-11-13T12:04:06  <mcstar> i tried to zoom out, and it exploded into my face
2012-11-13T12:04:31  <tsc>  smiley's computer probably runs at less than that :D
2012-11-13T12:04:49  <tsc> Or should I say graphics card
2012-11-13T12:05:10  <smiley1983> I understand that things will be managed fairly in the contest; just want to know what mental adjustments I should be making, between what I see on my system and what I should expect on the server
2012-11-13T12:05:25  <phildunstan> We can comfortable do 30fps on our machines, there may be differences though between what people can do at home and the competition if people have slower machines, but it should result in them having more time, not less
2012-11-13T12:05:55  <mcstar> phildunstan: the simulation segfaults, if the first user input is scroll down/up
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2012-11-13T12:06:15  <tsc> mcstar: Oh, so it wasn't just my computer messing about
2012-11-13T12:06:40  <mcstar> tsc: well, you were talking about gcc and stuff
2012-11-13T12:06:40  <phildunstan> mcstar: thanks, will look into that
2012-11-13T12:06:46  <smiley1983> Great, thanks for the clarification (I understand nothing is final, I'm just getting an idea of the setup)
2012-11-13T12:07:15  <tsc> mcstar: I meant how it crashed when i hit page down
2012-11-13T12:07:31  <tsc> Though that's perhaps not the same as scroll
2012-11-13T12:07:34  <mcstar> phildunstan: will the matches use this 3d engine? it seems to me like a waste of power, to establish a ranking. can it playback games?
2012-11-13T12:07:47  <smiley1983> Really happy to see it working on Arch, though. Makes it much more attractive to develop for.
2012-11-13T12:07:48  <phildunstan> mcstar: alex just told me that it is already fixed here, and will be deployed with the first official release of linux
2012-11-13T12:09:01  <phildunstan> mcstar: the simulation can run in headless mode if you use the --console command line argument. Can't remember exactly off the top of my head, but look in competition.py
2012-11-13T12:09:14  <phildunstan> the competition.py will run a bunch of games in parallel in headless mode
2012-11-13T12:09:42  <tsc> --console works
2012-11-13T12:09:59  <phildunstan> smiley1983: the commanders should have a single thread of a core i7-2600
2012-11-13T12:10:07  <tsc> It says ERROR: While importing '--quiet', No module named --quiet but doesn't seem to be a problem
2012-11-13T12:12:15  <phildunstan> aah, the competition script may not work in this release apparently
2012-11-13T12:12:18  <phildunstan> sorry
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2012-11-13T12:18:31  <tsc> smiley1983: aww you turned lazarant back on. I think it was enjoying it's number one spot
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2012-11-13T12:19:24  <tsc> I'd drawn xathis and greentea down to 2nd and 3rd by starting to beat them
2012-11-13T12:19:58  <tsc> Oh my, I have pizza! lucky me!
2012-11-13T12:20:11  <smiley1983> tsc: yes, I'm trying to rotate them so they all get beaten down as new bots emerge :)
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2012-11-13T12:25:56  <smiley1983> hm... I realized that my normal user account was not part of the 'video' group, and could not load the appropriate video driver module. Now I've added myself to the group, it segfaults like this:
2012-11-13T12:25:57  <amstan> anyone have experience with opencv, triangulating points(like finding out the 3d coords of a feature that i can see from multiple cameras)
2012-11-13T12:26:00  <smiley1983> ./simulate: line 5:  2137 Segmentation fault      python2 ../ctf/simulate.py examples
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2012-11-13T12:27:03  <smiley1983> I can run glxgears without problem; but I can also run the simulate script without problem as long as I don't have access to the correct video driver
2012-11-13T12:27:20  <smiley1983> don't know what all that means
2012-11-13T12:29:18  <smiley1983> amstan: I have no experience with this
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2012-11-13T12:36:21  <phildunstan> smiley1983: which os was this?
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2012-11-13T12:37:31  <smiley1983> Arch linux - not supported, I know
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2012-11-13T12:37:47  <phildunstan> 64-bit?
2012-11-13T12:38:05  <smiley1983> mcstat has it working on the same OS at a good speed, so I would say this is just my system
2012-11-13T12:38:08  <smiley1983> yes, 64 bit
2012-11-13T12:38:32  <smiley1983> Runs perfectly (albeit slowly) as long as I use some generic video driver rather than the accelerated one
2012-11-13T12:38:36  <mcstar> nvidia 7300, propritary driver
2012-11-13T12:38:45  <mcstar> e
2012-11-13T12:39:02  <smiley1983> sorry, I just called you mcstat. Not intentional
2012-11-13T12:39:17  <phildunstan> there is a log file in the sandbox somewhere called graphics.log or graphics.txt
2012-11-13T12:41:20  <smiley1983> output/graphics.log: http://pastebin.com/KbYRggqd
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2012-11-13T12:45:07  <smiley1983> I can't find anything that looks catastrophic in there; I would write this one off as user setup unless others encounter the same. For the record my graphics card is:
2012-11-13T12:45:07  <smiley1983> 00:02.0 VGA compatible controller: Intel Corporation 82G33/G31 Express Integrated Graphics Controller (rev 10)
2012-11-13T12:45:29  <smiley1983> The offending driver is called i915
2012-11-13T12:46:27  <phildunstan> no, i didn't see any major errors in there either
2012-11-13T12:46:40  <phildunstan> is there anything in the platform.log file in the same location
2012-11-13T12:48:55  <smiley1983> No platform.log file
2012-11-13T12:49:03  <phildunstan> ah, ok
2012-11-13T12:49:34  <smiley1983> There are log files for all the bots, and they are empty
2012-11-13T12:50:12  <phildunstan> i'll get alex to have a look and see if he notices anything
2012-11-13T12:51:33  <smiley1983> Does the system make a record of games which could be used to show a replay of the game later?
2012-11-13T12:54:48  <phildunstan> smiley1983: not yet. we want to do replays, but the earliest we are going to have a go at them is probably late next week
2012-11-13T12:56:17  <smiley1983> Right. I'll have a look at the bot-writing setup over the next few days. Looks like a great project, we'll see if it takes my attention away from the other projects. :)
2012-11-13T12:57:15  <phildunstan> smiley1983: good luck. i hope you have fun :)
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2012-11-13T13:57:07  <mcstar> thestinger: can i write to a given filedescriptor with print?
2012-11-13T13:57:20  <thestinger> print("foo", file=blah)
2012-11-13T13:57:25  <mcstar> 2.7
2012-11-13T13:57:35  <thestinger> print "foo" >> file
2012-11-13T13:57:36  <thestinger> ?
2012-11-13T13:57:38  <thestinger> maybe
2012-11-13T13:58:08  <mcstar> no
2012-11-13T13:58:37  <thestinger> mcstar: print >> file, "foo"
2012-11-13T13:58:40  <thestinger> weird syntax
2012-11-13T13:59:01  <thestinger> screw python2 :P
2012-11-13T13:59:06  <mcstar> ko, thanks
2012-11-13T13:59:25  <mcstar> does that flush?
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2012-11-13T14:00:56  <thestinger> mcstar: I think print flushes
2012-11-13T14:00:59  <thestinger> could be wrong
2012-11-13T14:01:17  <mcstar> well see in a moment
2012-11-13T14:01:31  <thestinger> file.write("foo") is the other way
2012-11-13T14:01:43  <thestinger> but that's lower level
2012-11-13T14:01:47  <thestinger> it definitely doesn't flush
2012-11-13T14:02:09  <mcstar> no
2012-11-13T14:02:43  <mcstar> thestinger: file.write doesnt flush, there is an explicit flush cal
2012-11-13T14:02:44  <mcstar> l
2012-11-13T14:03:07  <thestinger> I know
2012-11-13T14:03:11  <thestinger> 13:59:49 thestinger | it definitely doesn't flush
2012-11-13T14:03:15  <mcstar> it would be nice to add flushing to print, or a modifier to flush, if its already that weird
2012-11-13T14:03:25  <mcstar> at least be functional :(
2012-11-13T14:03:29  <thestinger> or just use python3? :P
2012-11-13T14:03:42  <mcstar> thestinger: i thought you meant that for 'print'
2012-11-13T14:03:42  <thestinger> and hey, python3 will be getting actual coroutines soon
2012-11-13T14:03:48  <thestinger> ah
2012-11-13T14:03:56  <mcstar> i cant use python3
2012-11-13T14:04:04  <mcstar> what im writing will run under python2.6
2012-11-13T14:04:51  <mcstar> thestinger: im writing a job manager to run my gpu simulations, and display the progress on a text gui
2012-11-13T14:05:08  <mcstar> it will run on centos
2012-11-13T14:05:29  <mcstar> i didnt even see python3 in their repository
2012-11-13T14:05:37  <thestinger> a cluster?
2012-11-13T14:05:38  <mcstar> and im not going out of my way to install it
2012-11-13T14:05:41  <thestinger> or 1 machine
2012-11-13T14:05:54  <mcstar> well, there are several clusters, but this will run on 1 pc
2012-11-13T14:05:56  <mcstar> with 4 cards
2012-11-13T14:06:06  <thestinger> ah
2012-11-13T14:06:17  <thestinger> well there's multiprocessing.Manager that makes it easy to do a cluster
2012-11-13T14:06:21  <thestinger> it listens on a socket/port
2012-11-13T14:06:29  <thestinger> and passes pickled python objects
2012-11-13T14:06:51  <mcstar> there is ipython also, which has some cluster support
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2012-11-13T14:14:59  <Blkt> good evening everyone
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2012-11-13T17:43:28  <ramn[home]> good evening
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2012-11-13T18:47:32  <mcstar> thestinger: http://i.imgur.com/QG3dB.png
2012-11-13T18:47:55  <thestinger> you made a UI for it too? :)
2012-11-13T18:48:00  <mcstar> yeah
2012-11-13T18:48:12  <mcstar> urwid
2012-11-13T18:48:47  <mcstar> it needs better frames..
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2012-11-13T19:36:00  <mcstar> k, bugs fixed
2012-11-13T19:42:10  <mcstar> thestinger: how is parsing done in python usually?
2012-11-13T19:43:12  <thestinger> mcstar: pyparsing?
2012-11-13T19:43:18  <thestinger> that's what the udacity languages class used
2012-11-13T19:43:38  <thestinger> there's something a bit like parsec/spirit - funcparserlib
2012-11-13T19:43:42  <thestinger> but it isn't maintained anymore
2012-11-13T19:44:02  <thestinger> anyway pyparsing is nice and easy
2012-11-13T19:44:47  <mcstar> i just need to process a line
2012-11-13T19:44:53  <mcstar> but its good for later reference
2012-11-13T19:45:30  <thestinger> actually maybe udacity used something else, I don't remember ;P
2012-11-13T19:46:09  <thestinger> oh right it used ply (which is basically just lex/yacc)
2012-11-13T19:46:14  <thestinger> pyparsing is saner
2012-11-13T19:46:29  <mcstar> in what way?
2012-11-13T19:46:52  <thestinger> you don't need boilerplate
2012-11-13T19:47:03  <thestinger> have you used parsec or spirit?
2012-11-13T19:48:05  <mcstar> no, i didnt need to
2012-11-13T19:48:24  <mcstar> i just read a lot of conversations on parse,alex,happy
2012-11-13T19:48:25  <thestinger> well it's just saner
2012-11-13T19:48:28  <thestinger> you compose together stuff
2012-11-13T19:48:34  <mcstar> yeah, i know
2012-11-13T19:48:45  <mcstar> but i dont know how lex/yacc works
2012-11-13T19:48:54  <thestinger> you list out all the tokens and name them
2012-11-13T19:49:00  <mcstar> you have to define the grammar in separate files?
2012-11-13T19:49:06  <thestinger> you list out all the parser elements
2012-11-13T19:49:11  <thestinger> and it compiles a parser
2012-11-13T19:49:23  <thestinger> mcstar: no, because there are reimplementations like python-ply within a language
2012-11-13T19:49:29  <thestinger> but it still has a lot of boilerplate
2012-11-13T19:49:35  <thestinger> and to me, it's very opaque
2012-11-13T19:49:47  <mcstar> is it fast?
2012-11-13T19:49:53  <mcstar> whats the upside?
2012-11-13T19:49:57  <thestinger> it's traditional
2012-11-13T19:50:14  <thestinger> spirit is faster than pretty much anything - but it has slow compile times since it's using metaprogramming
2012-11-13T19:50:33  <thestinger> using spirit is faster than using even simple things like scanf
2012-11-13T19:50:35  <mcstar> http://sprunge.us/ibQV?python
2012-11-13T19:50:55  <thestinger> what do you need to parse?
2012-11-13T19:51:04  <mcstar> workers, _, _ = workers_line.partition('#')
2012-11-13T19:51:09  <mcstar> workers = filter(lambda s: s != '', map(lambda s: s.strip(), workers.split(';')))
2012-11-13T19:51:15  <mcstar> thats my parser XD
2012-11-13T19:51:23  <thestinger> can you just use json?
2012-11-13T19:51:30  <mcstar> no?
2012-11-13T19:51:36  <thestinger> :P
2012-11-13T19:51:41  <mcstar> it is a simple textfile for the job input
2012-11-13T19:51:59  <mcstar> http://sprunge.us/VdSh
2012-11-13T19:52:19  <thestinger> mcstar: https://code.google.com/p/funcparserlib/ look how nice this is :P
2012-11-13T19:52:32  <thestinger> I just dislike that it isn't maintained atm
2012-11-13T19:52:39  <thestinger> have to run 2to3 over it for python3 (but it works)
2012-11-13T19:53:25  <mcstar> well, if i were to do anything complicate id rather use haskell
2012-11-13T19:53:34  <mcstar> but for this, python is perfect
2012-11-13T19:53:41  <mcstar> i can edit the script wo recompiling
2012-11-13T19:53:51  <mcstar> and i cant deploy on centos
2012-11-13T19:53:53  <mcstar> can*
2012-11-13T19:54:25  <mcstar> haskell + cabal is tedious and sometimes nerve wrecking
2012-11-13T19:54:47  <mcstar> well, i guess i could deploy binaries...
2012-11-13T19:55:02  <mcstar> thestinger: what do you think of my code?
2012-11-13T19:55:09  <mcstar> i hope it is not too ugly
2012-11-13T19:55:47  <mcstar> the event loop of urwid primitive
2012-11-13T19:55:58  <mcstar> anyway, it works
2012-11-13T19:57:06  <mcstar> what i dislike, is that i have to send an 'end' line from the running program before it terminates
2012-11-13T19:57:26  <mcstar> but i needed this workaround
2012-11-13T19:57:38  <mcstar> otherwise i cant detect program termination
2012-11-13T20:01:27  <thestinger> EOF?
2012-11-13T20:01:34  <thestinger> can't you just close the stream?
2012-11-13T20:01:41  <mcstar> not like that
2012-11-13T20:01:47  <mcstar> the problem is with the eventloop
2012-11-13T20:02:08  <mcstar> there are pipes, on which a callback is triggered, if something can be read from them
2012-11-13T20:02:23  <mcstar> but if there is no further output, nothing is triggered
2012-11-13T20:02:32  <mcstar> no matter what happens to the subprocess
2012-11-13T20:02:52  <mcstar> so i have to check from outside of Logger, poll the subprocess for exit code
2012-11-13T20:03:03  <mcstar> and tell it, when it can be closed
2012-11-13T20:03:17  <mcstar> that way i can eliminate the 'end
2012-11-13T20:03:19  <mcstar> '
2012-11-13T20:03:21  <mcstar> marker
2012-11-13T20:05:07  <thestinger> sec arguing with someone on the internet
2012-11-13T20:12:44  <mcstar> ill fix this tomorrow
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2012-11-13T21:01:21  <qwertys> hey
2012-11-13T21:01:25  <qwertys> I was wondering
2012-11-13T21:01:45  <qwertys> is there an 'unofficial' ants ranking still runing somewhere?
2012-11-13T21:02:21  <qwertys> cause I cant sign up at the site anymore for the official competition anymore
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