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2012-11-15T03:06:31  <aigamedev> mleise: this isn't a bot :-)  we just have IRC running in the office server so we can reply to queries in #gameai quickly.
2012-11-15T03:07:29  <mleise> aigamedev: I see, then could you answer me on #gameai ? :)
2012-11-15T03:07:47  <aigamedev> I was getting to it, this tab was active when I arrived so I read it first.
2012-11-15T03:24:15  <aerique> #gameai is (also) for the aisandbox?
2012-11-15T03:25:13  <mleise> aerique: it seems so
2012-11-15T03:25:36  <mleise> both belong to aigamedev.com
2012-11-15T03:26:13  <mleise> at least that contest does belong there, I'm not sure who wrote the sandbox itself
2012-11-15T03:26:15  <aerique> mleise: oh, there's also an #aisandbox channel?
2012-11-15T03:26:28  <mleise> is there someone in it ?
2012-11-15T03:26:37  <aigamedev> aerique: that's news to me :-)
2012-11-15T03:26:48  <aerique> no, i'm assuming to much :)
2012-11-15T03:27:04  <aerique> i thought mleise meant with 'both' that there were two channels :)
2012-11-15T03:28:29  <aerique> aigamedev: I'm happy the deadline got extended to January
2012-11-15T03:28:50  <aigamedev> yeah, seemed like the best thing to do.
2012-11-15T03:29:00  <aigamedev> wasn't so much a traditional "extension" but redefining the scope of the competition
2012-11-15T03:29:51  <aerique> aigamedev: i don't mind what it was but as someone with a full-time job and kids i at least feel i can find some time to put into it now :)
2012-11-15T03:44:07  <mleise> do you remember the extremely long beta phase for Ants ?
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2012-11-15T03:45:34  <mleise> aisandbox isn't polished yet. with the linux and c++ support added later some participants would have had far less time than others with the december deadline
2012-11-15T03:46:11  <mleise> so +1 for the extension
2012-11-15T03:53:37  <aerique> mleise: i coded more on ants in the beta phase than in the actual challenge :-)
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2012-11-15T03:54:59  <smiley1983> Momobot was submitted on the day the contest opened and finished 35th
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2012-11-15T03:56:19  <aerique> smiley1983: was a resubmission required at some point?  i don't recall
2012-11-15T03:56:20  <mleise> hehe
2012-11-15T03:56:56  <mleise> so much for changing the rules to level the field
2012-11-15T03:58:38  <smiley1983> I noticed that Momobot went up on day 1 of the official contest, and it's still listed as submission #1 (he was comfortably one of the top 10 at the opening, which is why I remembered)
2012-11-15T03:58:56  <smiley1983> I'm confident that no resubmissions were required after the official launch
2012-11-15T04:00:14  <aerique> smiley1983: ah, you're right.  My bot's rank in 2077
2012-11-15T04:00:19  <aerique> is*
2012-11-15T04:02:04  <aerique> oh, I see now, it was my snake sillyness: http://www.aichallenge.org/visualizer.php?game=319702&user=279
2012-11-15T04:02:52  <aigamedev> lol
2012-11-15T04:03:42  <aerique> i never put serious work into a bot, mostly worked on the common lisp starter kit during the beta.  when the real challenge started i also started a new job in real-life
2012-11-15T04:04:42  <smiley1983> aigamedev: is there a plan to release more detailed documentation of the game mechanics? Formulae which would let us do simulations, and accurately know the outcome of a certain set of moves based on the known state. Or is this information already available somewhere?
2012-11-15T04:05:02  <smiley1983> aerique: it looks great, even if it's not the most effective use of the ants :)
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2012-11-15T04:05:25  <smiley1983> Is the source available somewhere? I wouldn't mind running it against the beginner TCP server
2012-11-15T04:05:30  <aerique> it worked better before the rules changed :)
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2012-11-15T04:05:49  <aerique> smiley1983: sure, let me look around
2012-11-15T04:08:23  <aigamedev> smiley1983: yes, once we ship official linux and JSON protocol (with CPP and Go) today, we'll get to it.
2012-11-15T04:08:47  <aigamedev> smiley1983: in general, the game is balanced such that one guy defending always beats one guy attacking, and attack beats charge.
2012-11-15T04:09:08  <aigamedev> but 2 vs. 1, given a small enough window, the 2 side wins after taking one casualty.
2012-11-15T04:09:25  <aigamedev> the details of the simulation timings may change a bit, but conceptually we'll preserve this balance.
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2012-11-15T04:10:12  <aigamedev> smiley1983: how best would you like the information you need?
2012-11-15T04:10:17  <smiley1983> Great, that's good to know; better, in some ways, than the formulae - I hope this intention is also documented for all the AI developers not in IRC :)
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2012-11-15T04:10:40  <aigamedev> I will make sure it's on the mechanics page now.
2012-11-15T04:11:36  <smiley1983> I'm not sure about the best format - for the aichallenge contests we had the code for the engine, so we could check directly - is this the case here?
2012-11-15T04:12:16  <aigamedev> no, not yet.
2012-11-15T04:12:26  <smiley1983> Helper functions in the Python starter package are also a great form of documentation for that sort of thing
2012-11-15T04:12:49  <aigamedev> it's an option, but I'm not sure about it.  conceptually we don't want commanders digging too low down to preserve the layering.
2012-11-15T04:13:18  <aigamedev> so if you're fully reproducing the simulation I'm not sure how that fits with the spirit of the competition.
2012-11-15T04:13:26  <aigamedev> do you want to use a planner or something along those lines?
2012-11-15T04:13:46  <aerique> smiley1983: http://db.tt/PNS57eGv snake bot source
2012-11-15T04:14:14  <aerique> smiley1983: mail me any questions at aerique@xs4all.nl since i really have got to get to work now :)
2012-11-15T04:14:34  <smiley1983> hm... well, I've written entirely heuristics-based bots for previous contests
2012-11-15T04:14:40  <smiley1983> aerique: great, thanks :)
2012-11-15T04:14:49  <aigamedev> smiley1983: OK, so just getting a feel for the mechanics would be enough.
2012-11-15T04:15:05  <smiley1983> aigamedev: but now I'm mostly looking into simulation-based approaches
2012-11-15T04:16:00  <smiley1983> I can do simulations with somewhat abstract rules, if such are going to be preserved (as you've indicated)
2012-11-15T04:16:02  <aigamedev> smiley1983: OK, I'd like to make that possible as much as we can.  games in general struggle with this so it's an interesting problem.  the commanders in KLLZONE were also heuristic for this reason, but Guerrilla experimented with planners too.
2012-11-15T04:16:50  <aigamedev> the planners though had to make assumptions and approximations, like you said.
2012-11-15T04:16:50  <smiley1983> I guess that looking at the documentation currently available, I wasn't seeing much that I could work with for the sort of ideas I'm playing with at the moment
2012-11-15T04:17:44  <aigamedev> smiley1983: yes, we'll preserve that rock/paper/scissor dynamic, it's what will keep the game balanced.  we'll probably increase the view range for defenders, at the cost of "state switch" time.  when you defend in one direction it's more of a commitment.
2012-11-15T04:18:38  <aigamedev> smiley1983: I know how you feel, a bunch of academics contacted me about making a planning competition and we had the same discussion... it's not a trivial thing to do in general.
2012-11-15T04:19:05  <smiley1983> It's a great project, I'm not certain that I'll actually get around to building something for it, but I hope I do.
2012-11-15T04:19:21  <aigamedev> smiley1983: think about what you need and would like, and once we've shipped the official Linux and .cpp / JSON support we'll dig into it.  you can email me (alexjc) and the rest of the developers at team@aigamedev.com
2012-11-15T04:20:09  <smiley1983> aigamedev: great, thanks, I'll look forward to the linux release :)
2012-11-15T04:20:24  <aigamedev> there's a beta already, http://aigamedev.com/download/linux
2012-11-15T04:22:09  <smiley1983> Yes - a few issues on my system, but I can work around them (I think I'll have to use the headless mode to get the timing right, so development will be dependant on separate replays for me)
2012-11-15T04:22:32  <smiley1983> I understand replays are an intended later feature
2012-11-15T04:22:48  <aigamedev> oh, the graphics bug.  did you have a screenshot?  also, check if there's anything weird in #/output/graphics.log
2012-11-15T04:23:20  <smiley1983> I've looked at graphics.log, nothing major there - mine isn't something that'll show in a screenshot:
2012-11-15T04:23:30  <aerique> aigamedev: what does the '#' stand for?  i came across that on the website as well wrt to the logging directory
2012-11-15T04:23:37  <aerique> aigamedev: is it Python slang?
2012-11-15T04:24:07  <smiley1983> I either run without graphics acceleration, and it's very slow, or I run with graphics accel and it segfaults (i915 driver, Arch linux)
2012-11-15T04:24:09  <aigamedev> it's SCons slang :-)
2012-11-15T04:24:15  <aigamedev> it means the root of the build / distribution
2012-11-15T04:24:22  <aigamedev> we use SCons to build the code
2012-11-15T04:24:30  <aerique> alright, thanks :)
2012-11-15T04:25:00  <aigamedev> smiley1983: OK, I will try to build a low quality texture pack to see if it helps.
2012-11-15T04:25:17  <aigamedev> it's going on the long long list
2012-11-15T04:25:46  <smiley1983> Yes, I understand that these are not small endevaours - sorry to make the job larger
2012-11-15T04:26:01  <aigamedev> it's part of the fun.
2012-11-15T04:26:09  <smiley1983> Great :)
2012-11-15T04:26:20  <aigamedev> you can hack the shaders yourself if you want, in assets all .pak files are .zip
2012-11-15T04:27:00  <smiley1983> I'll think about it, but have other things competing for my attention
2012-11-15T04:27:19  <aigamedev> OK, sure.  we'll be around if you need anything.
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2012-11-15T05:02:00  <tsc> aerique: I absolutely love your snake bot
2012-11-15T05:02:14  <tsc> That looks so awesome
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2012-11-15T08:24:30  <mcstar> lol, i received my 2nd job offering through PE
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2012-11-15T08:37:09  <ramn[work]> PE?
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2012-11-15T08:43:14  <mcstar> project euler
2012-11-15T08:45:03  <ramn[work]> ah, so they hunt for programmers there? :)
2012-11-15T08:45:08  <ramn[work]> How far have you gotten
2012-11-15T08:45:28  <mcstar> solved a couple, when that was the buzz, in this channel
2012-11-15T08:45:34  <mcstar> when we were bored after Ants
2012-11-15T08:45:39  <ramn[work]> ah :)
2012-11-15T08:45:59  <ramn[work]> I have completed the first "level"
2012-11-15T08:46:28  <ramn[work]> they keep adding more every week, I will never finish :(
2012-11-15T08:48:34  <ramn[work]> http://projecteuler.net/profile/mcstar.png  <- you?
2012-11-15T08:49:22  <mcstar> great, this opened a gazillion of tabs
2012-11-15T08:49:48  <mcstar> well, it has a hungarian flag, thats a good bet then
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2012-11-15T09:09:19  <mcstar> ah shit
2012-11-15T09:09:26  <mcstar> im wondering why am i getting NaN
2012-11-15T09:09:48  <mcstar> i compiled with compute capability 2.0 for a device of 1.3
2012-11-15T09:43:04  <mcstar> ipython is down :(
2012-11-15T09:43:07  <mcstar> .org
2012-11-15T09:50:36  <aerique> tsc: thanks :)
2012-11-15T09:57:10  <smiley1983> g0llum: is negatron yours? It seems to have decisively taken first place for now :)
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2012-11-15T10:18:39  <g0llum> yes ;)
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2012-11-15T10:25:16  <g0llum> (idea stolen from a1kons js bot)
2012-11-15T10:25:36  <smiley1983> I've done a little bit of work toward my next bot, but I don't know if I'll get it working before moving onto other stuff
2012-11-15T10:31:24  <g0llum> it' a bit like internet chess, where you make a move each 2 days ..
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2012-11-15T13:06:58  <mcstar> thestinger: what should i do if i want to pass methods around?
2012-11-15T13:07:41  <mcstar> should i make a lambda closure with the object reference?
2012-11-15T13:07:47  <mcstar> or... i forgot
2012-11-15T13:09:52  <thestinger> mcstar: don't think you need to do that
2012-11-15T13:09:59  <mcstar> yeah, it works
2012-11-15T13:10:02  <mcstar> i just tested
2012-11-15T13:10:07  <mcstar> wo doing anything fancy
2012-11-15T13:10:12  <thestinger> a.foo is already a bound method
2012-11-15T13:10:15  <mcstar> yeah
2012-11-15T13:10:32  <thestinger> the tricky part is binding new ones dynamically or weird stuff
2012-11-15T13:10:40  <mcstar> yeah, we discussed that
2012-11-15T13:10:49  <mcstar> changing class or instance methods...
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