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2013-02-17T00:13:53  <_flag> a1k0n: My idea is to have a lookup table for all "interesting" addition and subtraction operations, and do the rest with prime factorization
2013-02-17T00:14:23  <_flag> Not sure if that will translate well to large numbers though
2013-02-17T00:14:26  <a1k0n> but you can't make a lookup table for +1 or -1
2013-02-17T00:15:47  <_flag> I mean, if I precompute a lot of addition and subtraction paths, so that for example when I have something like 2^8 and I end up with a bunch of 3s, 5s, 7s, etc., then I will only have to look at the addtion and subtractions that are likely to be useful in my search
2013-02-17T00:16:36  <a1k0n> hmm.
2013-02-17T00:16:53  <a1k0n> i tried something similar and threw it out
2013-02-17T00:16:55  <_flag> So the final search won't do any addition or subtraction of its own
2013-02-17T00:17:07  <_flag> But will simply branch based on a set table
2013-02-17T00:17:14  <_flag> Well I just started today
2013-02-17T00:17:18  <_flag> I don't claim to know what I'm doing
2013-02-17T00:17:52  <_flag> mcstar told me you got 11 raw score for 13!, is that true?
2013-02-17T00:17:59  <a1k0n> me either, heh
2013-02-17T00:18:01  <a1k0n> yeah.
2013-02-17T00:18:04  <_flag> hmmm
2013-02-17T00:18:08  <a1k0n> not very hard to find actually
2013-02-17T00:18:08  <_flag> Not sure how to get that
2013-02-17T00:18:16  <_flag> Is it with the 1 or without?
2013-02-17T00:18:18  <a1k0n> there are in fact many many ways
2013-02-17T00:18:22  <a1k0n> without the 1
2013-02-17T00:18:26  <_flag> I got 13
2013-02-17T00:18:33  <_flag> with the 1
2013-02-17T00:18:42  <a1k0n> ok, then just one shorter, heh
2013-02-17T00:18:50  <_flag> ok, so with the 1 then
2013-02-17T00:18:55  <_flag> That should probably be doable
2013-02-17T00:19:00  <_flag> without*
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2013-02-17T08:28:49  <mcstar> yay, its working
2013-02-17T08:29:15  <mcstar> i compile the c++11 source on my machine, and upload the object file to the server, and link it there
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2013-02-17T08:55:36  <mcstar> a1k0n: took 414s to find a solution for 13! on 7 threads
2013-02-17T09:00:06  <mcstar> mleise1: dont you want to join in some number crunching?
2013-02-17T09:00:23  <mcstar> we used to love this kind of fun...
2013-02-17T09:00:29  <mcstar> when we were young
2013-02-17T09:00:33  <mcstar> months ago
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2013-02-17T09:52:20  <mcstar> _flag: do you have a better solution for 13! than you had yesterday?
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2013-02-17T10:28:13  <_flag> mcstar: yeah
2013-02-17T10:28:30  <mcstar> how long?
2013-02-17T10:28:34  <_flag> mcstar: by hand though, I'm rewriting my algorithmn
2013-02-17T10:28:35  <_flag> 13
2013-02-17T10:28:55  <mcstar> _flag: lets agree, to always say raw score, i.e without the leading 1
2013-02-17T10:29:22  <mcstar> you know, to prevent confusion
2013-02-17T10:29:31  <mcstar> is that 13 RS then?
2013-02-17T10:29:43  <_flag> okay
2013-02-17T10:29:44  <_flag> it's 12 then
2013-02-17T10:30:11  <mcstar> thats not bad, by hand
2013-02-17T10:31:18  <_flag> most important trick was 12^2 - 1 = 11*13
2013-02-17T10:32:15  <mcstar> (12+1)(12-1) = 12^2-1^2
2013-02-17T10:32:21  <_flag> yeah, I know
2013-02-17T10:32:39  <mcstar> i mean, the standard formula, (a+b)(a-b)=a^2-b^2
2013-02-17T10:32:45  <_flag> You got the solution for 13! yet?
2013-02-17T10:32:50  <mcstar> yes
2013-02-17T10:32:55  <mcstar> RS 11
2013-02-17T10:33:34  <_flag> I think it would probably be best to focus on the higher ones, anything 15! and below is probably perfected already
2013-02-17T10:33:42  <_flag> Well, higher than that even
2013-02-17T10:33:51  <_flag> But it's difficult to say with how fast factorial grows
2013-02-17T10:34:13  <mcstar> it grows exactly with n!
2013-02-17T10:34:17  <mcstar> :)
2013-02-17T10:34:23  <_flag> thanks :/
2013-02-17T10:35:09  <mcstar> there are approximately O(3^n(n!)^2) results for an SLP of length n
2013-02-17T10:35:19  <mcstar> i think thats what i calculated
2013-02-17T10:35:48  <_flag> How long did computing 13! take you?
2013-02-17T10:35:55  <mcstar> 414s
2013-02-17T10:36:06  <mcstar> on 7 threads
2013-02-17T10:36:30  <_flag> yeah that'll become inefficient fast
2013-02-17T10:36:36  <mcstar> im searching for 14! of RS 11, it is at 100 minutes now
2013-02-17T10:37:04  <_flag> You have to tell it what RS to find?
2013-02-17T10:37:10  <mcstar> yes
2013-02-17T10:37:22  <mcstar> i have to recompile to change it even
2013-02-17T10:37:43  <mcstar> it is a different program for each RS
2013-02-17T10:37:59  <_flag> Well I assume you just change a constant or something
2013-02-17T10:38:06  <mcstar> no
2013-02-17T10:38:15  <mcstar> i said, different program
2013-02-17T10:38:34  <mcstar> and c++ isnt lisp, to write a macro... and generate the pgrogram at runtime
2013-02-17T10:38:45  <_flag> heh
2013-02-17T10:40:19  <mcstar> i think there is no 14! of RS 11
2013-02-17T10:40:39  <mcstar> my first operator is already a + not *, which has never happened before for the other solutions
2013-02-17T10:40:54  <_flag> Probably not, it's difficult to get the second 7
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2013-02-17T11:14:46  <mleise1> mcstar: I did join someone's number crunch. It was a nice short 1 day task.
2013-02-17T11:15:29  <mcstar> shit
2013-02-17T11:15:30  <mleise1> Solving the 8-puzzle (moving tiles) from a given initial state and end state.
2013-02-17T11:15:33  <mcstar> i have an error i think
2013-02-17T11:15:39  <mcstar> mleise1: hello there
2013-02-17T11:15:54  <mcstar> sweet
2013-02-17T11:16:01  <mleise1> hello
2013-02-17T11:16:02  <mcstar> mleise1: contest? or PE?
2013-02-17T11:16:15  <mleise1> nono, it was his homework in AI (A*)
2013-02-17T11:16:48  <mleise1> And I was like ... A* for _that_? And solved the thing with a dumb brute force.
2013-02-17T11:17:18  <mleise1> His first approach took 120 seconds for one puzzle, now he's down to 56 ms.
2013-02-17T11:17:25  <mcstar> :)
2013-02-17T11:17:31  <mcstar> what is the 8?
2013-02-17T11:17:35  <mcstar> 8x8 square?
2013-02-17T11:17:38  <mcstar> with 1 missing?
2013-02-17T11:17:46  <mleise1> 3x3, 8 tiles, one slot free
2013-02-17T11:17:50  <mcstar> ic
2013-02-17T11:17:54  <mleise1> the larger one is the 15-puzzler
2013-02-17T11:17:58  <mcstar> k
2013-02-17T11:18:20  <mleise1> It does seem to take more time than the average sudoku though. I was impressed. :D
2013-02-17T11:19:07  <mleise1> Still it's only 1 ms for the brute force solution. +1 ms overhead because I initially calculate all possible puzzle states.
2013-02-17T11:19:59  <mleise1> That makes it easier to look them up by their index (# of permutation) and calculate the next 2-4 states from moving a tile to the free slot.
2013-02-17T11:20:31  <mcstar> i never really liked/played those kind of puzzles
2013-02-17T11:20:53  <mcstar> so, it turns out, i only send jobs to 1 thread...
2013-02-17T11:21:11  <mleise1> that's a strange train of thoughts
2013-02-17T11:21:16  <mcstar> _flag: all my timing are basically for 1 thread, i had an error
2013-02-17T11:21:27  <mcstar> mleise1: what is?
2013-02-17T11:21:45  <mleise1> you never likes these puzzles, so you only send jobs to one thread
2013-02-17T11:21:53  <mleise1> *liked
2013-02-17T11:21:54  <mcstar> ...
2013-02-17T11:22:08  <mcstar> i missed you and your jokes
2013-02-17T11:22:38  <mleise1> it has been quite here recently
2013-02-17T11:22:50  <mleise1> until ~2 days ago
2013-02-17T11:23:25  <mleise1> a lot of talk about sponsoring and how to run the next contest
2013-02-17T11:27:21  <_flag> Naive version of new algo gives RS 34 for 37!
2013-02-17T11:28:03  <_flag> a1k0n: you here?
2013-02-17T11:28:30  <_flag> mcstar: did 14! finish yet?
2013-02-17T11:28:51  <mcstar> no
2013-02-17T11:29:16  <mcstar> _flag: do you upload your solutions?
2013-02-17T11:29:40  <_flag> As in did I or does the contest work that way?
2013-02-17T11:29:47  <_flag> I haven't uploaded anything yet
2013-02-17T11:30:00  <mcstar> have you dont it yet?
2013-02-17T11:30:04  <mcstar> ok
2013-02-17T11:30:24  <mcstar> im wondering how well does 34 compare
2013-02-17T11:30:44  <mcstar> if you would get a score of 1 that would mean you got the shortest one
2013-02-17T11:31:00  <mcstar> i would upload mine, but i cant...
2013-02-17T11:31:20  <mleise1> what kind of contest is this with ever increasing factorials?
2013-02-17T11:31:31  <mcstar> a stupid one
2013-02-17T11:31:39  <mcstar> you wouldnt be interested
2013-02-17T11:31:51  <_flag> lol
2013-02-17T11:31:55  <mcstar> mleise1: http://azspcs.net/
2013-02-17T11:31:57  <mleise1> hehe, ok. it's probably better.
2013-02-17T11:32:00  <mcstar> just in case you are...
2013-02-17T11:32:13  <a1k0n> _flag: kinda
2013-02-17T11:32:28  <_flag> a1k0n: If you don't mind me asking, what's your RS for 37!?
2013-02-17T11:32:36  <mleise1> "demented computer programmers", oh what a nice introduction. makes you feel all warm and fuzzy inside
2013-02-17T11:32:39  <a1k0n> 21
2013-02-17T11:32:47  <_flag> Welp
2013-02-17T11:32:51  <_flag> Back to the drawing board
2013-02-17T11:33:05  <a1k0n> not even sure if it's optimal
2013-02-17T11:33:20  <_flag> Mine definately isn't, I'm pretty confident I can get it down to like 27
2013-02-17T11:33:30  <_flag> But 21 is kind of low
2013-02-17T11:33:35  <a1k0n> the grand irony of the scoring system in this contest is that you get more points for optimizing the lower factorials
2013-02-17T11:34:00  <mcstar> what do you mean? you cant optimize them
2013-02-17T11:34:05  <mcstar> we know the lower bounds
2013-02-17T11:34:27  <mcstar> we can reach it for the lower ones by exhaustive search
2013-02-17T11:35:19  <mcstar> anyway, i have to fix this bug, it is embarrassing to use multiple threads, when only 1 of them is doing the job
2013-02-17T11:35:34  <_flag> I think this contest might be for people with more computing resources, not sure you can get anywhere without seraching
2013-02-17T11:35:45  <_flag> I have barely 2 cores
2013-02-17T11:36:02  <mcstar> _flag: just use the computers where you work
2013-02-17T11:36:05  <a1k0n> pretty sure you can't.  i'm giving up until i can get on some more cores
2013-02-17T11:36:33  <a1k0n> was using a 6-core+hyperthreading machine before and each of those cores is twice as fast as those on my laptop
2013-02-17T11:37:06  <a1k0n> might try out ec2
2013-02-17T11:37:10  <_flag> mcstar: yeah, I can't do that
2013-02-17T11:37:39  <mleise1> but ... 37! == 13763753091226345046315979581580902400000000 =-O
2013-02-17T11:38:20  <mcstar> it is a good strategy to spend the 500$ that you could potentially earn if you sell your gizmo if you win, and buy cloud time
2013-02-17T11:38:44  <mleise1> mcstar: do you still have access to that computer grid in your uni? :D
2013-02-17T11:39:04  <mcstar> not uni, our research group's private clusters
2013-02-17T11:39:08  <mcstar> and yes
2013-02-17T11:41:28  <mleise1> is there anything like a 145 bit integer?
2013-02-17T11:41:43  <mcstar> theres a gcc extension for 128bit
2013-02-17T11:41:58  <mcstar> 2 word on 64 bit
2013-02-17T11:42:08  <mcstar> there might be a 256 bit, idk
2013-02-17T11:42:27  <mcstar> i dont want to switch to gmp just yet
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2013-02-17T11:43:32  <mleise1> So I figure for every n there is a trivial n-step solution?
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2013-02-17T11:43:59  <mleise1> ah no, 2*n step
2013-02-17T11:44:35  <mcstar> there is a fairly trivial one, if you keep dividing the numbers as products of 2 similar numbers
2013-02-17T11:47:38  <mcstar> 2:38:35 to search through all of RS 11
2013-02-17T11:47:41  <mcstar> thats 1 core
2013-02-17T11:49:12  <mleise1> what's RS?
2013-02-17T11:51:50  <a1k0n> raw score
2013-02-17T11:52:04  <a1k0n> length of a straight-line-program not including the 1
2013-02-17T11:52:54  <a1k0n> i wrote a hacky fixed-size-bignum thing a while back, i wonder if that's faster than gmp for this
2013-02-17T11:53:21  <mcstar> somehow, the test_any MPI function wastn working
2013-02-17T11:53:29  <mcstar> now it's o
2013-02-17T11:53:31  <mcstar> k
2013-02-17T11:56:37  <mleise1> so basically you don't approach each factorial one by one, but check if you find a factorial solution in the whole search space comprising i.e. 11 steps
2013-02-17T11:56:40  <mcstar> now its nice&fast
2013-02-17T11:56:56  <mcstar> mleise1: thats the way i do
2013-02-17T11:57:02  <mcstar> no
2013-02-17T11:57:04  <mcstar> nono
2013-02-17T11:57:13  <mcstar> i search for each input individually
2013-02-17T11:57:44  <a1k0n> me too
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2013-02-17T12:28:53  <mcstar> _flag: got 14!
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2013-02-17T12:30:54  <mcstar> hm
2013-02-17T12:31:20  <mcstar> i have a repeated digit
2013-02-17T12:38:48  <mcstar> a1k0n: whats your RS for 14! ?
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2013-02-17T12:57:36  <mcstar> shit, i had a typo
2013-02-17T12:57:51  <mcstar> i had f in place of g in a place
2013-02-17T12:58:03  <mcstar> (in a place) -> somewhere
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2013-02-17T13:03:26  <mcstar> fixed, so 14! has RS 11
2013-02-17T13:36:42  <_flag> nice
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2013-02-17T13:56:08  <mcstar> how about running it on 36 machines of 16 HT cores each?
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2013-02-17T13:56:48  <mcstar> 8*2=16, for clarificaiton
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2013-02-17T14:11:06  <_flag> I suppose that's one way to do it
2013-02-17T14:11:38  <mcstar> no, since i have an mpi error
2013-02-17T14:11:59  <mcstar> i think my master loop has too great a sleep in the loop, and cant service that many threads
2013-02-17T14:12:09  <_flag> Meanwhile my analtic solutions don't look promising, might have to give up on this thing unless someone wants to lend me a bank of computers
2013-02-17T14:12:21  <_flag> analytic*
2013-02-17T14:12:27  <mcstar> _flag: you can read the papers, that what i do, in the meantime
2013-02-17T14:12:34  <mcstar> well, ill stop soon, cause i have other things to do
2013-02-17T14:12:50  <mcstar> qi cheng has a paper on exactly his problem
2013-02-17T14:13:50  <_flag> ah found it
2013-02-17T14:13:59  <_flag> I'm not formally comp sci educated, didn't know this was a thing
2013-02-17T14:18:24  <mcstar> shit, i dont think this will work
2013-02-17T14:18:41  <mcstar> i need inifiniband mpi drivers compiled in
2013-02-17T14:18:42  <mcstar> or something
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2013-02-17T14:27:43  <mcstar> anyway. 15! has RS 12
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2013-02-17T14:32:53  <mcstar> oh
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2013-02-17T14:33:13  <mcstar> it is working, i just cant have the 0 master thread on a different network
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2013-02-17T14:34:02  <mcstar> 8*16 threads ok so far
2013-02-17T14:36:04  <mcstar> 15! done in 120s
2013-02-17T14:38:18  <mcstar> 16*16 threads ok too
2013-02-17T14:41:09  <mcstar> 16! has RS 12
2013-02-17T14:44:46  <mcstar> 32*16 threads are ok too
2013-02-17T14:47:05  <_flag> nothing like brute force
2013-02-17T14:47:19  <mcstar> 17! has RS 12 tooo
2013-02-17T14:47:23  <mcstar> thats 3 in a row
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2013-02-17T15:21:51  <mleise1> mcstar: you are doing this on 512 threads in parallel?
2013-02-17T15:22:00  <mcstar> yes
2013-02-17T15:22:10  <mleise1> holy cow
2013-02-17T15:22:24  <mcstar> i hope for a solution for 18! soon
2013-02-17T15:22:28  <mcstar> and then i stop
2013-02-17T15:22:52  <mcstar> maybe later ill resume, when i meet the guys and discuss time management
2013-02-17T15:32:23  <mcstar> mleise1: my first article where im the 1st author, its in preprint http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0022024813000833
2013-02-17T15:32:59  <mcstar> mleise1: this was the project for which i used the gpus, if you remember
2013-02-17T15:35:17  <mleise1> alright, looks fancy with the graphics. I'll buy one.
2013-02-17T15:35:25  <mleise1> nah just kidding
2013-02-17T15:35:26  <mcstar> dont
2013-02-17T15:35:43  <mcstar> ofc, i can send you a copy, but i dont think you really want to read it
2013-02-17T15:39:52  <mleise1> no thanks. it's not that interesting. i just had to smile when I read Wullf. he was our Federal President: http://hu.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_Wulff
2013-02-17T15:42:05  <mcstar> not the same wulff
2013-02-17T15:44:47  <mcstar> i hope Al will change his mind, and ill be able to register
2013-02-17T15:44:52  <mleise1> actually it wasn't even the name, it was the funny way he got out of office by lies and trying to stop articles about him.
2013-02-17T15:45:42  <mleise1> some politicians just seem to do all the wrong things in a blief that the situation will calm down in a few weeks
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2013-02-17T16:48:59  <mcstar> 18! done
2013-02-17T16:49:09  <mcstar> RS 13
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2013-02-17T18:42:26  <mcstar> 19! has RS 13
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2013-02-17T18:53:21  <_flag> Your updates are depressing; I'll wait for a contest that doesn't require 512 cores
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2013-02-17T19:05:42  <mcstar> _flag: all the more your glory will be when you beat us with a paper&pencil colution
2013-02-17T19:05:53  <mcstar> s
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