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2013-03-24T08:07:17  <mcstar> @later tell thestinger check the post, i added a templated version
2013-03-24T08:07:17  <contestbot> mcstar: Ready to serve, my lord.
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2013-03-24T12:40:32  <jmcarthur> mcstar: i've been thinking about reviving a board game that my dad and uncle once designed and fabricated in the late 80s that ended up not doing very well commercially. trying to find a good description of the game that is not their patent (yes it's patented, but i wouldn't have any trouble with that)
2013-03-24T12:41:10  <mcstar> you want to make another run commercially?
2013-03-24T12:41:35  <mcstar> or just for this game
2013-03-24T12:41:39  <mcstar> its the latter
2013-03-24T12:41:41  <jmcarthur> not commercially
2013-03-24T12:41:59  <jmcarthur> an electronic revival
2013-03-24T12:42:04  <jmcarthur> *digital
2013-03-24T12:42:50  <jmcarthur> can't seem to find any detailed descriptions other than the wordy patent   http://www.patentgenius.com/patent/5037107.html
2013-03-24T12:43:21  <jmcarthur> i'll give a summary
2013-03-24T12:43:30  <jmcarthur> the images in the patent are helpful at least
2013-03-24T12:43:37  <mcstar> ok
2013-03-24T12:44:32  <jmcarthur> the board is basically a layer of metal with holes punched in it between two layers of thick plastic with holes in the same location slightly wider so that you can see a rim of metal if you look into one
2013-03-24T12:44:58  <jmcarthur> and the plastic has some colored paint around the holes and some lines connecting some of them in some configuration
2013-03-24T12:45:10  <jmcarthur> some of the lines are directed (with arrows) and some are not
2013-03-24T12:45:19  <jmcarthur> each player has a collection of pieces
2013-03-24T12:45:47  <jmcarthur> the pieces have magnets on their bases so that they stick to the metal, but some of them are positive and some of them are negative
2013-03-24T12:46:13  <jmcarthur> the board is vertical, so each player can't see which pieces the other player puts on the board, only their locations
2013-03-24T12:46:46  <jmcarthur> if two pieces of the same charge are put in the same hole, the one that was there already is repelled out of the hole and falls off the board
2013-03-24T12:47:31  <mcstar> is this some contraint solving?
2013-03-24T12:47:32  <jmcarthur> players can start their pieces from the bottom of the board and can move them around based on the lines that are painted on
2013-03-24T12:47:37  <mcstar> constraint*
2013-03-24T12:47:55  <jmcarthur> there are three special holes in the middle which, if a piece reaches them, means that you can retire that piece
2013-03-24T12:48:03  <jmcarthur> if a piece is knocked out, it has to start over
2013-03-24T12:48:11  <jmcarthur> once you have retired all your units, you win
2013-03-24T12:48:43  <jmcarthur> there is contraint solving only in the usual sense that many strategy games involve some form of constraint solving
2013-03-24T12:49:30  <jmcarthur> the real trick is that you have to make good guesses about what polarity your opponent's pieces have in order to make good decisions
2013-03-24T12:49:57  <jmcarthur> (and as a human another challenge is remembering polarities after discovering them, but of course this is not difficult for a computer)
2013-03-24T12:51:22  <mcstar> hm
2013-03-24T12:51:24  <jmcarthur> so the main reason i bring this game up is that i mentally combined it with lights out when you brought that up
2013-03-24T12:51:42  <mcstar> i see
2013-03-24T12:51:43  <jmcarthur> each player has some pieces which have a charge (or color, if you will)
2013-03-24T12:52:00  <jmcarthur> and as they move around, they change the colors of their adjacent positions
2013-03-24T12:52:21  <jmcarthur> and if the new color matches any players on them, they are eliminated or knocked off or something
2013-03-24T12:52:35  <mcstar> well, it would not think of a double-faced board
2013-03-24T12:52:38  <jmcarthur> maybe each player can just have all of one color units
2013-03-24T12:52:40  <jmcarthur> no
2013-03-24T12:52:45  <jmcarthur> this is single-faced
2013-03-24T12:53:13  <mcstar> arent the 2 players look at different faces of the triangle?
2013-03-24T12:53:13  <jmcarthur> it's just that instead of being able to pick any square to toggle, you have to move a unit, instead
2013-03-24T12:53:23  <jmcarthur> i'm talking about a new game now, sorry
2013-03-24T12:53:35  <jmcarthur> yes, in polaritease, they see different sides of the board
2013-03-24T12:53:50  <mcstar> and you dont want that for the computer game?
2013-03-24T12:54:26  <jmcarthur> i kind of think it would need some adapting to make it more fun in this context
2013-03-24T12:54:27  <mcstar> im sure there is enough material to whip up a contest
2013-03-24T12:54:47  <mcstar> just get the damn organizational issues straight :)
2013-03-24T12:54:49  <jmcarthur> it's great as a board game but possibly quite boring as an ai game
2013-03-24T12:55:19  <jmcarthur> maybe i'm wrong though
2013-03-24T12:55:48  <mcstar> i just lost something in my thesis...
2013-03-24T12:55:51  <mcstar> bit annoyed atm
2013-03-24T12:55:55  <jmcarthur> :\
2013-03-24T13:00:19  <jmcarthur> hmm
2013-03-24T13:00:43  <jmcarthur> i thought of an awful, unrelated idea. let me brainstorm a little and then i'll try describing it here
2013-03-24T13:00:57  <mcstar> im in
2013-03-24T13:11:58  <mcstar> jmcarthur: today, im viral advertising my blog, make sure to check it out :) http://liquid-phynix.github.com/
2013-03-24T13:12:10  <mcstar> soon there will be haskell content too
2013-03-24T13:12:17  <mcstar> (but not for you, just beginners like me0
2013-03-24T13:12:53  <jmcarthur> alright, this is a combat game for many players at once
2013-03-24T13:12:59  <jmcarthur> each player starts with N units
2013-03-24T13:13:09  <jmcarthur> and also N worth of ammunition
2013-03-24T13:13:22  <jmcarthur> one unit of ammunitation is enough to kill one fighter
2013-03-24T13:13:55  <jmcarthur> the problem is that there are different kinds of ammunition required to attack each player's units
2013-03-24T13:14:10  <jmcarthur> and the ammunition you start out with is only the kind that can attack your own units
2013-03-24T13:14:25  <jmcarthur> so in order to actually attack anybody, you must trade some of your ammunition for different ammunition
2013-03-24T13:15:28  <jmcarthur> to make trades you make public offers of the form: I would like to receive up to yQty of ammunition Y at a cost of no more than xQty of ammunition X per Y
2013-03-24T13:15:30  <jmcarthur> or something like that
2013-03-24T13:15:43  <jmcarthur> and the server matches your offers up with other players' offers appropriately
2013-03-24T13:15:44  <mcstar> are all of my units different from the enemy's units?
2013-03-24T13:15:50  <jmcarthur> yes
2013-03-24T13:16:02  <jmcarthur> all your units are the same (let's call it "color")
2013-03-24T13:16:03  <mcstar> haha
2013-03-24T13:16:10  <jmcarthur> and they can only be attacked by the same color ammunition
2013-03-24T13:16:12  <mcstar> that smells like arbitrage
2013-03-24T13:16:16  <jmcarthur> :D
2013-03-24T13:16:20  <jmcarthur> indeed
2013-03-24T13:16:58  <jmcarthur> "last man standing" obviously can't work, since your strategy would be to just never trade then
2013-03-24T13:17:01  <mcstar> jmcarthur: did you guys get anywhere with that in house contest?
2013-03-24T13:17:07  <jmcarthur> it needs to be point based or something
2013-03-24T13:17:27  <jmcarthur> well, we are still doing something similar as a contest among interns. nothing public (yet?)
2013-03-24T13:18:00  <jmcarthur> it's gamified in the sense that all trading is kind of gamified, but it's not really like the games we aichallengers typically do right now
2013-03-24T13:18:21  <jmcarthur> i haven't tried to move forward with public stuff yet
2013-03-24T13:18:26  <mcstar> they are more like the real thing you would do anyways?
2013-03-24T13:18:33  <jmcarthur> closer, at least
2013-03-24T13:19:01  <jmcarthur> i really like this idea i just had. i like that in order to win you have to put yourself at greater risk
2013-03-24T13:19:14  <jmcarthur> by giving away the only thing that can kill your units
2013-03-24T13:20:27  <mcstar> i would choose peace
2013-03-24T13:20:49  <jmcarthur> your score goes up by killing other units :P
2013-03-24T13:20:59  <mcstar> but i wouldnt die!
2013-03-24T13:21:07  <jmcarthur> but you would lose
2013-03-24T13:21:07  <mcstar> since they coudlnt kill me
2013-03-24T13:21:14  <jmcarthur> unless everybody did it
2013-03-24T13:21:19  <mcstar> no, because the other players would od the same
2013-03-24T13:21:32  <mcstar> it is the rational behavior
2013-03-24T13:21:35  <jmcarthur> is that really the nash equilibrium?
2013-03-24T13:21:54  <mcstar> ask antimatroid
2013-03-24T13:22:13  <jmcarthur> what if instead of public offers you could make private offers to specific players?
2013-03-24T13:22:51  <mcstar> well, i would definitely feel around
2013-03-24T13:22:56  <jmcarthur> then you could initially trade with players whose units are farther away from you in the hopes of eventually being to able to trade something for ammunition that is good against the units close to you
2013-03-24T13:23:12  <jmcarthur> the more distant units being less of a threat, of course
2013-03-24T13:23:33  <mcstar> how many variables are going to be?
2013-03-24T13:23:38  <mcstar> assests and distance?
2013-03-24T13:23:42  <mcstar> assets*
2013-03-24T13:24:32  <jmcarthur> oh i realize i've been referring to ammunition quantities as "units", but i think it should be clear that they can be subdivided
2013-03-24T13:24:46  <jmcarthur> maybe they should still be units, just something like it takes 100 units to kill a fighter
2013-03-24T13:25:09  <jmcarthur> by variables you mean the game parameters?
2013-03-24T13:25:13  <mcstar> yeah
2013-03-24T13:25:35  <mcstar> actually, what represents the game state
2013-03-24T13:25:55  <jmcarthur> ah
2013-03-24T13:25:56  <jmcarthur> let's see
2013-03-24T13:26:06  <jmcarthur> there's some game map, maybe with obstacles or something
2013-03-24T13:26:23  <jmcarthur> there are some units, each of which belongs to a player, at some locations on the map
2013-03-24T13:26:33  <jmcarthur> each player has an inventory of different colors of ammunitions
2013-03-24T13:26:54  <jmcarthur> hmm
2013-03-24T13:27:07  <jmcarthur> i guess that basically describes the state. now for the state transitions
2013-03-24T13:27:42  <jmcarthur> on each turn, each unit can either move N/S/E/W or attack another unit (maybe only adjacent units or maybe within some range, not sure)
2013-03-24T13:27:51  <jmcarthur> also, each player can try to make some trades
2013-03-24T13:28:20  <jmcarthur> and the trades are actually performed simultaneously with the unit moves i think
2013-03-24T13:29:07  <jmcarthur> does that seem to be exhaustive enough of an explanation to think about?
2013-03-24T13:29:34  <jmcarthur> the trading obviously can get complicated because you have to describe an order matching engine, but i think the rest is pretty straightforward
2013-03-24T13:30:10  <jmcarthur> i guess even the order matching is simple since it's synchronous here
2013-03-24T13:31:52  <mcstar> not a bad idea
2013-03-24T13:32:24  <jmcarthur> maybe there could be some designated spot on the map which if you hold it for N turns you just win
2013-03-24T13:32:32  <jmcarthur> king of the hill style
2013-03-24T13:33:59  <jmcarthur> i like that. it basically gives players a mutual incentive to trade
2013-03-24T13:34:06  <mcstar> now getting complicated...
2013-03-24T13:34:25  <jmcarthur> ah i change my mind
2013-03-24T13:34:32  <jmcarthur> if you never traded and manage to get on the hill you just win
2013-03-24T13:34:42  <mcstar> i guess we should try it out to see if it is good enough or not
2013-03-24T13:34:43  <jmcarthur> and that's what everybody would try first
2013-03-24T13:34:50  <mcstar> but that would mean exclusion from the contest
2013-03-24T13:35:03  <jmcarthur> i'm fine with that as long as i get to play on the tcp server
2013-03-24T13:37:57  <mcstar> i would like to enter the next contest
2013-03-24T13:38:12  <mcstar> maybe helping in organizing it is more fun, idk
2013-03-24T13:38:14  <jmcarthur> well so would i, but somebody has to take the reigns, too :\
2013-03-24T13:42:51  <jmcarthur> i don't like the point-based scoring system. it makes it too easy to valuate ammunition
2013-03-24T13:46:52  <jmcarthur> i guess it would be an improvement if instead of starting out with ammunition that matches your color you start out with a variety of ammunition and none of your own color
2013-03-24T13:47:15  <jmcarthur> then you can start with guns blazing and these issues of equilibrium are harder to bump into
2013-03-24T13:48:28  <jmcarthur> ah, and there's the interesting twist that you want to buy your own color as a defensive measure, except when you need to sell it in order to make some offensive moves
2013-03-24T13:52:36  <mcstar> so you just got rid of you initial 'great idea'
2013-03-24T13:52:39  <mcstar> your
2013-03-24T13:53:43  <mcstar> jmcarthur: if someone had ammo that could kill me, and i wanted to buy, that someone would just kill me with it :)
2013-03-24T13:54:31  <jmcarthur> mcstar: not if they are across the map and need a different ammo
2013-03-24T13:54:52  <mcstar> but how could they trade if they are across the map?
2013-03-24T13:54:58  <mcstar> there are pulley cars?
2013-03-24T13:55:08  <jmcarthur> the trading occurs off-map, or at least that was the initial idea
2013-03-24T13:55:17  <jmcarthur> physical location wouldn't matter
2013-03-24T13:55:24  <jmcarthur> it's the player that has an inventory, not the units
2013-03-24T13:55:26  <mcstar> it should, shouldnt it?
2013-03-24T13:55:36  <mcstar> ammunition is not something you order through mail
2013-03-24T13:55:45  <jmcarthur> it's a game :P
2013-03-24T13:55:49  <mcstar> XD
2013-03-24T13:56:10  <mcstar> haskell-blah can be really weird sometimes
2013-03-24T13:56:10  <jmcarthur> it's already silly that ammunition has to match your color in order to have any effect on you
2013-03-24T13:56:29  <jmcarthur> yeah...
2013-03-24T13:56:34  <jmcarthur> i rarely read it
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2013-03-24T15:31:33  <mcstar> thestinger: hey
2013-03-24T15:31:42  <thestinger> \o
2013-03-24T15:31:50  <mcstar> got the message?
2013-03-24T15:32:07  <thestinger> message?
2013-03-24T15:32:19  <mcstar> yeah, i @later told you something
2013-03-24T15:33:06  <mcstar> thestinger: it was too easy, i didnt even need variadic templates
2013-03-24T15:33:17  <mcstar> check the post
2013-03-24T15:33:19  <thestinger> oh, no it didn't tell me
2013-03-24T15:33:26  <thestinger> @list later
2013-03-24T15:33:26  <contestbot> thestinger: notes, remove, and tell
2013-03-24T15:33:29  <thestinger> @notes
2013-03-24T15:33:29  <contestbot> thestinger: Error: I have no notes waiting to be delivered.
2013-03-24T15:33:32  <thestinger> ;\
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2013-03-24T15:53:38  <thestinger> mcstar: the same post as before?
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2013-03-24T16:08:55  <mcstar> thestinger: yes
2013-03-24T16:09:00  <mcstar> i extended it
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2013-03-24T17:47:38  <mikinbing> what is this
2013-03-24T17:48:39  <mikinbing> == ture
2013-03-24T17:48:51  <mikinbing> whois == mikinbing
2013-03-24T17:48:54  <mikinbing> alskjdfasd
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