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2013-08-12T14:43:41  <kurnevsky> Hello, guys. Is there a chance for a new challenge? :)
2013-08-12T14:50:49  <thestinger> mcstar: \o
2013-08-12T14:53:12  <Zannick> a chance, yes. very very slim.
2013-08-12T14:58:10  <kurnevsky> And what happened with it? Enthusiasts are gone? :)
2013-08-12T14:58:33  <mcstar> thestinger: and everyone else: o/
2013-08-12T14:58:52  <thestinger> mcstar: I might have a job soon ;P, I've had 2 interviews with mozilla
2013-08-12T14:59:19  <thestinger> mcstar: also, finished BSG - did not really like it that much :|
2013-08-12T14:59:31  <mcstar> whoaa.... mozilla Himself?
2013-08-12T14:59:43  <thestinger> wat
2013-08-12T14:59:44  <mcstar> i didnt know there was an actual person called mozilla
2013-08-12T14:59:51  <mcstar> j/k
2013-08-12T15:00:11  <mcstar> thestinger: thats ok, it gets boring after a couple seasons
2013-08-12T15:01:19  <mcstar> thestinger: will you be working on rust, or some other project? or is it too early to ask
2013-08-12T15:01:24  <thestinger> on rust
2013-08-12T15:01:40  <thestinger> mcstar: https://careers.mozilla.org/en-US/position/oKiEXfwn that's the job opening
2013-08-12T15:01:49  <thestinger> I think I have a good chance of getting it
2013-08-12T15:02:49  <mcstar> they need a computer science bullshit or equivalent
2013-08-12T15:03:03  <thestinger> or equivalent experience, yeah
2013-08-12T15:03:08  <mcstar> i guess, thats not a problem since you already talked to them
2013-08-12T15:03:27  <thestinger> the lead dev of rust is the one who encouraged me to apply ;p
2013-08-12T15:03:33  <mcstar> CS BS might not give much experience..
2013-08-12T15:04:00  <mcstar> im sort of looking at the rust gpu code generation
2013-08-12T15:04:09  <mcstar> read the paper of hulk
2013-08-12T15:04:15  <thestinger> eric holk
2013-08-12T15:04:21  <mcstar> i know, i read it
2013-08-12T15:04:33  <thestinger> there's work on SIMD stuff now
2013-08-12T15:05:52  <mcstar> thestinger: did you hear about the story of lavabit?
2013-08-12T15:06:03  <thestinger> yes
2013-08-12T15:06:27  <mcstar> someone told me about their sevices not a long ago
2013-08-12T15:06:31  <mcstar> and they are already down :(
2013-08-12T15:06:56  <mcstar> anyway, it is a good cautionary tale
2013-08-12T15:07:37  <mcstar> kurnevsky: look at the topic, thats what happened
2013-08-12T15:08:23  <mcstar> someone not long ago advertised some ai contest here
2013-08-12T15:08:36  <mcstar> maybe you could look at that
2013-08-12T15:12:59  <mcstar> i cant find it
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2013-08-12T15:16:50  <mcstar> yay, 'history' is a useful feature after all
2013-08-12T15:17:01  <mcstar> kurnevsky: http://multiagentcontest.org/ if you are interested
2013-08-12T15:18:05  <kurnevsky> mcstar: ok, thanks :)
2013-08-12T15:21:13  <mcstar> thestinger: will you be moving to site, if you get the job?
2013-08-12T15:21:25  <thestinger> mcstar: well they have an office in toronto
2013-08-12T15:21:33  <mcstar> thats great
2013-08-12T15:21:52  <thestinger> their team is already spread out
2013-08-12T15:22:09  <thestinger> but yeah, it'd be awesome to work there
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2013-08-12T15:23:46  <mcstar> (i think elway will bring dexter down in the end)
2013-08-12T15:37:20  <mcstar> thestinger: have you read this? http://www.icu-project.org/docs/papers/cpp_report/the_anatomy_of_the_assignment_operator.html
2013-08-12T15:37:24  <mcstar> dont scroll down
2013-08-12T15:37:36  <mcstar> actually, dont look at the code either, see if you can come up with it
2013-08-12T15:38:10  <thestinger> I don't use inheritance ;P
2013-08-12T15:38:27  <mcstar> well, ppl do when they write c++
2013-08-12T15:39:20  <thestinger> 'If you've ever created a new class, you've needed to write an assignment operator. ' - only true if you use raw pointers
2013-08-12T15:39:28  <mcstar> i forgot about the possible 'chaining' of assigment operators, so i got the type sig wrong of operator=
2013-08-12T15:39:42  <mcstar> this is about raw pointers
2013-08-12T15:39:59  <mcstar> TBar could be a typedef.. true
2013-08-12T15:40:33  <thestinger> well I mean using raw pointers is likely a mistake
2013-08-12T15:40:38  <thestinger> unless you are writing a container
2013-08-12T15:40:45  <thestinger> or a sum type template
2013-08-12T15:41:00  <mcstar> thestinger: most of the time ppl use raw pointers to 'share' data in c/c++
2013-08-12T15:41:06  <thestinger> well then they
2013-08-12T15:41:11  <thestinger> they're non-owning*
2013-08-12T15:41:17  <thestinger> and shallow copying is correct
2013-08-12T15:42:05  <thestinger> this sample code is "wrong"
2013-08-12T15:42:05  <mcstar> i know rust helps here, but try to keep it 'c++'
2013-08-12T15:42:08  <thestinger> it should be unique_ptr
2013-08-12T15:42:30  <thestinger> and they wouldn't need to implement the copy/move constructors or operator=
2013-08-12T15:42:41  <thestinger> wouldn't be any slower
2013-08-12T15:42:51  <mcstar> you mean unique_ptr instead of auto_ptr?
2013-08-12T15:43:12  <thestinger> instead of those raw ptrs
2013-08-12T15:43:28  <thestinger> 'consider both pointers to have owning semantics'
2013-08-12T15:43:39  <thestinger> if they own the value, they are a unique pointer - so use a unique_ptr
2013-08-12T15:43:40  <mcstar> well, the guy gives a solution with auto_ptr
2013-08-12T15:44:00  <mcstar> (but that was not portable at the that time)
2013-08-12T15:44:02  <thestinger> yeah but if he didn't use auto_ptr he wouldn't have to implement operator=
2013-08-12T15:44:09  <thestinger> well
2013-08-12T15:44:11  <thestinger> this is ancient I guess
2013-08-12T15:44:16  <mcstar> 97 i think
2013-08-12T15:44:31  <thestinger> anyway in rust you don't implement this stuff
2013-08-12T15:44:33  <thestinger> ;p
2013-08-12T15:45:04  <mcstar> that article is still educational
2013-08-12T15:45:25  <mcstar> and can be a good motivation to use uniqe_ptr
2013-08-12T15:45:30  <thestinger> yeah
2013-08-12T15:45:41  <thestinger> but only if you use inheritance
2013-08-12T15:45:54  <thestinger> if you don't, almost everything should be by-value and there are few use cases for unique_ptr
2013-08-12T15:46:05  <thestinger> unless you are writing a linked data structure
2013-08-12T15:46:17  <mcstar> i dont see how inheritance has to do with this
2013-08-12T15:46:23  <thestinger> mcstar: that's why they have ptrs
2013-08-12T15:46:38  <thestinger> because pointer indirection is required for dynamic polymorphism
2013-08-12T15:46:42  <thestinger> since you don't know the size of the type
2013-08-12T15:47:09  <thestinger> C++ doesn't *prevent* you from making the mistake of storing it by-value though like a sane language would
2013-08-12T15:47:16  <thestinger> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Object_slicing
2013-08-12T15:47:29  <mcstar> you can recast any way you want the address of a stack allocated object
2013-08-12T15:47:46  <mcstar> at least thats what i think
2013-08-12T15:48:38  <mcstar> thestinger: i thought the pointers are needed to easily change ownership of objects without copying them
2013-08-12T15:48:58  <mcstar> at least im thinking in this context, not that they were needed because of polymorphism
2013-08-12T15:49:06  <mcstar> the text says, TBar is monomorphic
2013-08-12T15:49:17  <mcstar> in the sense it has no superclasses
2013-08-12T15:49:35  <thestinger> they say it's an owning ptr though so I don't get why it's not by-value
2013-08-12T15:49:41  <thestinger> if it's not for runtime polymorphism
2013-08-12T15:50:01  <thestinger> there are only 2 of them so it's not like size is going to be a huge concern, unless it's recursive in which case you have to
2013-08-12T15:50:28  <thestinger> pointer indirection is a premature attempt at optimization, even though by-value is simpler and likely faster
2013-08-12T15:53:17  <mcstar> try returning objects by value
2013-08-12T15:53:46  <mcstar> i dont understand your statement, and especially not given the time the article was written
2013-08-12T15:58:42  <thestinger> mcstar: returning objects by-value is fine... it's a move in the worst case
2013-08-12T15:58:45  <thestinger> but compilers do RVO
2013-08-12T15:58:54  <thestinger> they make an output pointer, and write the return value to it
2013-08-12T15:59:18  <thestinger> compilers still did RVO before C++11
2013-08-12T16:04:25  <mcstar> thestinger: lets say i have a function, that calls another one, which returns an object, which the first function stores, like Fa(){a = Fb();}, i think in this case  the object which is created in Fb will be allocated on Fb's stack, and when returned will be copied to a temporary location, destroyed in Fb's scope, and given to the assignment operator of the object, which might just result in a simply
2013-08-12T16:04:27  <mcstar> call to the default copy constructor if nothin was specialied, and so copied from the temporary location to the stack of Fa
2013-08-12T16:04:41  <mcstar> what did RVO do in this case in '97?
2013-08-12T16:05:11  <thestinger> 97 is pre-standard C++ so there were no defined semantics
2013-08-12T16:05:14  <thestinger> ;p
2013-08-12T16:05:21  <thestinger> C++98 explicitly defines RVO
2013-08-12T16:05:29  <mcstar> lets go with that
2013-08-12T16:05:32  <thestinger> a compiler can allocate the object in the caller, and return it via an output parameter
2013-08-12T16:05:42  <thestinger> it can do it all the way up the call stack
2013-08-12T16:05:45  <thestinger> not just 1 level
2013-08-12T16:05:47  <thestinger> and they did
2013-08-12T16:05:54  <thestinger> it's even allowed to change the program's visible behaviour
2013-08-12T16:05:59  <mcstar> but that requires operator= be the auto generated one
2013-08-12T16:06:05  <thestinger> if the copy-constructor has a side effect, it can still eliminate it
2013-08-12T16:06:07  <thestinger> mcstar: nope
2013-08-12T16:06:21  <thestinger> the standard explicitly says they can eliminate the copy-constructor whether it has a side effect or not for RVO
2013-08-12T16:06:34  <thestinger> you can try it yourself
2013-08-12T16:06:42  <mcstar> ok, so thats a restriction what i can put inside a copy constructor
2013-08-12T16:06:53  <thestinger> if you return by-value, it won't actually call the copy-constructor in C++98, or the move-constructor in C++11
2013-08-12T16:07:09  <mcstar> but probably thats ok, since i need to keep its semantics
2013-08-12T16:07:21  <thestinger> you have to pass -fno-elide-constructors to disable it
2013-08-12T16:07:35  <thestinger> it's not even part of -O, it *always* elides them
2013-08-12T16:08:03  <thestinger> clang makes the decision in the frontend - it's not really considered an optimization (clang doesn't do optimizations, LLVM does)
2013-08-12T16:08:14  <thestinger> it's just something every sane C++ compiler has to do
2013-08-12T16:09:08  <mcstar> so you are basically saying that returning whatever objects was an efficient thing for quite some time
2013-08-12T16:09:36  <thestinger> yep
2013-08-12T16:09:52  <mcstar> why do we need move constructors at all if the above is true?
2013-08-12T16:10:03  <thestinger> mcstar: because returning is only one case
2013-08-12T16:10:16  <thestinger> you need move constructors to pass temporaries efficiently by-value
2013-08-12T16:10:19  <thestinger> or to steal by-value
2013-08-12T16:10:22  <thestinger> anyway C++ has it all wrong
2013-08-12T16:10:37  <thestinger> moving should be the *default*, and compilers should prevent use-after-move
2013-08-12T16:10:44  <thestinger> copying should be explicit
2013-08-12T16:10:46  <mcstar> okok, spare me the evangelism
2013-08-12T16:10:48  <mcstar> :)
2013-08-12T16:10:49  <thestinger> ;p
2013-08-12T16:12:12  <mcstar> thestinger: where did you read about this btw?
2013-08-12T16:12:17  * thestinger shrugs
2013-08-12T16:12:33  <thestinger> mcstar: the C++ standard? ;p
2013-08-12T16:12:38  <thestinger> stackoverflow
2013-08-12T16:12:43  <thestinger> random blogs
2013-08-12T16:12:57  <mcstar> so you didnt read a book on c++ for example?
2013-08-12T16:13:04  <mcstar> like a real book
2013-08-12T16:14:51  <thestinger> nope
2013-08-12T16:15:08  <thestinger> books are meant to be fiction ;P
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2013-08-12T22:12:23  <zhenbeiju> Hello any one here ?
2013-08-12T22:13:43  <zhenbeiju> I want creat an account  , but it's closed
2013-08-12T22:13:50  <zhenbeiju> how can i play this game
2013-08-12T22:18:01  <zhenbeiju> any one here ?