2013-08-26T00:12:06  *** contestbot <contestbot!~supybot@aichallenge/bot/contestbot> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T00:12:06  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o contestbot
2013-08-26T00:14:18  *** amstan <amstan!~alex@aichallenge/admin/amstan> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2013-08-26T00:40:16  *** antimatroid <antimatroid!~nick@222.212.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.)
2013-08-26T00:40:36  *** antimatroid <antimatroid!~nick@222.212.dsl.mel.iprimus.net.au> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T02:04:26  *** amstan_ <amstan_!~alex@aichallenge/admin/amstan> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2013-08-26T03:08:23  *** thestinger <thestinger!~strcat@archlinux/trusteduser/thestinger> has quit IRC (Quit: sleep)
2013-08-26T05:38:24  *** smiley1983 <smiley1983!~smiley@115-64-6-216.static.tpgi.com.au> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T06:01:02  *** epicmonkey <epicmonkey!~epicmonke@host-224-58.dataart.net> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T06:10:22  *** sigh <sigh!~sigh@ppp114-153.static.internode.on.net> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T06:22:19  *** Areks <Areks!~Areks@rs.gridnine.com> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T06:40:43  *** Areks <Areks!~Areks@rs.gridnine.com> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2013-08-26T06:41:07  *** Areks <Areks!~Areks@rs.gridnine.com> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T07:06:25  *** foRei <foRei!~ViT@0x4dd7b24d.adsl.cybercity.dk> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T07:37:46  *** Areks <Areks!~Areks@rs.gridnine.com> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2013-08-26T07:38:13  *** Areks <Areks!~Areks@rs.gridnine.com> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T07:46:54  *** AlliedEnvy <AlliedEnvy!~AlliedEnv@adsl-68-89-189-100.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2013-08-26T07:56:53  *** AlliedEnvy <AlliedEnvy!~AlliedEnv@adsl-68-89-189-100.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T08:24:51  *** Areks <Areks!~Areks@rs.gridnine.com> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2013-08-26T08:25:13  *** Areks <Areks!~Areks@rs.gridnine.com> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T09:18:18  *** mcstar <mcstar!~mcstar@adsl-89-132-40-74.monradsl.monornet.hu> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T09:28:17  *** dici <dici!~cabbage@ip2042.saw.rwth-aachen.de> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T09:34:58  *** amstan <amstan!~alex@aichallenge/admin/amstan> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T09:34:58  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o amstan
2013-08-26T09:48:42  *** epicmonkey <epicmonkey!~epicmonke@host-224-58.dataart.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2013-08-26T10:53:19  *** bqf <bqf!~bqf@dslb-092-073-095-077.pools.arcor-ip.net> has quit IRC (Changing host)
2013-08-26T10:53:20  *** bqf <bqf!~bqf@unaffiliated/bqf> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T11:17:47  *** sigh <sigh!~sigh@ppp114-153.static.internode.on.net> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
2013-08-26T11:42:52  *** foRei <foRei!~ViT@0x4dd7b24d.adsl.cybercity.dk> has quit IRC (Quit: Bye)
2013-08-26T11:57:12  *** NoxiaZ^ <NoxiaZ^!~noxi@87-104-29-39-dynamic-customer.profibernet.dk> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T12:32:44  *** smiley1983 <smiley1983!~smiley@115-64-6-216.static.tpgi.com.au> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2013-08-26T12:42:53  *** kilae <kilae!~chatzilla@catv-162-034.tbwil.ch> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T12:46:40  *** Zannick <Zannick!~mick@aichallenge/admin/zannick> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2013-08-26T12:55:15  *** thestinger <thestinger!~strcat@archlinux/trusteduser/thestinger> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T13:05:07  <mcstar> thestinger: hey, have you experienced problems with pty access?
2013-08-26T13:05:42  <mcstar> only xterm works for me, since the last update, all other term emulators fail to start
2013-08-26T13:06:20  <thestinger> mcstar: your fstab is probably wrong
2013-08-26T13:06:26  <thestinger> mcstar: what's in it?
2013-08-26T13:07:09  <mcstar> devpts                 /dev/pts      devpts    defaults            0      0
2013-08-26T13:07:10  <mcstar> shm                    /dev/shm      tmpfs     nodev,nosuid        0      0
2013-08-26T13:07:19  <thestinger> remove both
2013-08-26T13:07:27  <thestinger> systemd mounts them automatically, properly
2013-08-26T13:07:29  <mcstar> what changed?
2013-08-26T13:07:34  <thestinger> glibc had to remove a feature
2013-08-26T13:07:37  <thestinger> because it was insecure
2013-08-26T13:07:44  <thestinger> so now systemd has to mount devpts
2013-08-26T13:08:01  <thestinger> it already did mount it before, but now it *has* to
2013-08-26T13:08:28  <mcstar> ok, rebooting
2013-08-26T13:08:44  <mcstar> nope. delay that
2013-08-26T13:09:52  <mcstar> thestinger: i just read a blog that argued rust brings nothing really new to the table, and c++ with the latest standard is adequate
2013-08-26T13:10:01  <thestinger> lol
2013-08-26T13:10:02  <thestinger> where?
2013-08-26T13:10:57  <thestinger> type classes, default methods, generic impls of type classes, memory safety, no data races, no iterator invalidation, [...]
2013-08-26T13:11:04  <thestinger> real macros
2013-08-26T13:11:45  <thestinger> and no separate system for dynamic dispatch - it uses the same type classes as regular generics
2013-08-26T13:12:13  * thestinger shrugs
2013-08-26T13:12:15  <thestinger> and a lot more
2013-08-26T13:13:56  <mcstar> im trying to find it again...
2013-08-26T13:14:49  <mcstar> thestinger: http://nerds-central.blogspot.hu/2012/02/c11-makes-competitors-go-rusty.html
2013-08-26T13:15:08  *** rusti <rusti!~rusti@CPEbc1401380f73-CMbc1401380f70.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T13:15:43  <thestinger> so, he's just making stuff up
2013-08-26T13:15:48  <thestinger> rust structs have the same layout as C
2013-08-26T13:16:03  <thestinger> rust doesn't use GC by default, it's a corner case optional feature not used in the stdlib
2013-08-26T13:16:17  <thestinger> and it performs as well as C++ already, it's the same LLVM :s
2013-08-26T13:16:47  <thestinger> has good debug info support now, nothing else to do to match C++ (except it's higher-level so there's more debug info)
2013-08-26T13:16:51  * thestinger shrugs
2013-08-26T13:17:21  <thestinger> `However, using lambda's correctly along with other templating techniques makes C++ straightforward for multi-threaded reasoning. Template Meta Programming should be able to perform most of the type reasoning which the compile time checks are performing in Rust. C++11 has type inference. It does not use clever code branch analysis like Rust, but it is there (auto and decltype).`
2013-08-26T13:17:23  <thestinger> it's 100% untrue
2013-08-26T13:17:25  <thestinger> ;p
2013-08-26T13:18:34  <mcstar> i wonder how would this www.cs.rice.edu/~taha/publications/preprints/2003-12-01.pdf‎(the c++ example) look like in rust
2013-08-26T13:18:38  <thestinger> C++ doesn't have borrow checking (dangling refs, iterator invalidation), protection against data races, protection against use-after-move, protection against double-free/use-after-free
2013-08-26T13:18:53  <thestinger> although you wouldn't run into the last issue *much* in C++
2013-08-26T13:19:10  <thestinger> you can't just magically make it a safe language with TMP
2013-08-26T13:19:43  * thestinger shrugs
2013-08-26T13:19:48  <mcstar> to what?
2013-08-26T13:20:11  <thestinger> that blog post
2013-08-26T13:20:11  <mcstar> does the c++ style dsl embedding work in rust?
2013-08-26T13:20:12  <thestinger> it's awful
2013-08-26T13:20:17  <mcstar> get over it already
2013-08-26T13:20:19  <thestinger> sure
2013-08-26T13:20:24  <thestinger> rust has macros + syntax exts
2013-08-26T13:20:24  <mcstar> im talking about the paper
2013-08-26T13:20:40  <thestinger> rusti: fmt!("%d", 5)
2013-08-26T13:20:42  -rusti- ~"5"
2013-08-26T13:20:43  <thestinger> rusti: fmt!("%s", 5)
2013-08-26T13:20:47  -rusti- pastebinned 7 lines of output: http://ix.io/7AC
2013-08-26T13:20:52  <thestinger> that's the old fmt string though
2013-08-26T13:21:17  <thestinger> mcstar: that's a DSL, isn't it? you'll be able to define them yourself by writing some rust code manipulating tokens (that example is a bit beyond declarative macros)
2013-08-26T13:21:23  * thestinger shrugs
2013-08-26T13:21:31  <mcstar> the format string is a dsl
2013-08-26T13:21:43  <thestinger> you still have operator overloading and such but that's a crappy way to make a DSL
2013-08-26T13:21:52  <mcstar> thestinger: have you looked at the paper?
2013-08-26T13:21:56  <thestinger> mcstar: well the whole thing is, fmt! is just pretending to be like a function with args
2013-08-26T13:21:58  <thestinger> mcstar: no
2013-08-26T13:22:01  <mcstar> then do
2013-08-26T13:22:37  <thestinger> mcstar: rust syntax exts == template haskell
2013-08-26T13:22:57  <mcstar> the problem is, TH is untyped
2013-08-26T13:24:40  <mcstar> that kind of embedding the paper shows for c++ looks real nice, i didnt know it was possible that way
2013-08-26T13:24:54  <mcstar> (looks nice for c++ that is, not in general)
2013-08-26T13:25:58  <thestinger> mcstar: problem is that expression templates are unusable
2013-08-26T13:26:02  <thestinger> try boost spirit
2013-08-26T13:26:09  <thestinger> you get 200KiB tracebacks at compile-time
2013-08-26T13:26:16  <thestinger> if you forget a semicolon
2013-08-26T13:26:30  <thestinger> all the internal details are public
2013-08-26T13:26:36  <mcstar> programmer incompetence, pff
2013-08-26T13:27:04  <thestinger> mcstar: if programmers were competent, why would they need the DSL abstraction in the first place? ;p
2013-08-26T13:27:10  <thestinger> it's only useful if it makes your life easier
2013-08-26T13:27:13  <thestinger> and in C++ it does the opposite
2013-08-26T13:27:21  <mcstar> dsl is for domain experts, not programmers
2013-08-26T13:27:50  <mcstar> thestinger: it makes the life of the programmer harder, the user's easier
2013-08-26T13:27:59  <thestinger> mcstar: I mean it makes the user's life harder
2013-08-26T13:28:06  <mcstar> shouldnt :)
2013-08-26T13:28:08  <thestinger> because now they have incomprehensible template errors
2013-08-26T13:30:48  <thestinger> mcstar: ok for example
2013-08-26T13:30:57  <thestinger> this is an example from the boost xpressive docs
2013-08-26T13:31:00  <thestinger> "<(\\w+)>.*?</\\1>"
2013-08-26T13:31:02  <thestinger> normal regexp
2013-08-26T13:31:05  <thestinger> '<' >> (s1= +_w) >> '>' >> -*_ >> "</" >> s1 >> '>'
2013-08-26T13:31:09  <thestinger> expression template version
2013-08-26T13:31:15  <thestinger> ok and now, lets make a typo
2013-08-26T13:31:38  <thestinger> 800 lines of garbage
2013-08-26T13:31:49  <mcstar> why would you do that?
2013-08-26T13:32:03  <mcstar> i mean, representing a regexp like that?
2013-08-26T13:32:16  <mcstar> it is not readable
2013-08-26T13:32:30  <thestinger> mcstar: because C++ forces you to make DSLs like this
2013-08-26T13:32:31  <mcstar> regexp is already hard to read
2013-08-26T13:32:31  <thestinger> ;p
2013-08-26T13:32:56  <mcstar> i dont think it does
2013-08-26T13:33:08  <thestinger> mcstar: no metaprogramming on strings like you'd need
2013-08-26T13:33:22  <thestinger> you need
2013-08-26T13:33:45  <thestinger> user literal + variadic templates with constexpr string literals
2013-08-26T13:33:49  <thestinger> but it doesn't exist
2013-08-26T13:34:57  <mcstar> you could definitely write an interpreter for the regexp dsl
2013-08-26T13:35:10  <thestinger> but they want it statically checked/compiled
2013-08-26T13:35:12  <mcstar> the problem would be to compile it
2013-08-26T13:35:22  <thestinger> rust and template haskell can do it
2013-08-26T13:35:26  <thestinger> sanely
2013-08-26T13:35:57  <mcstar> do rust macros go beyond TH, or syntax extension as you said it?
2013-08-26T13:36:18  <mcstar> for example, can you generate code at runtime?
2013-08-26T13:36:52  <mcstar> and is there guarantee that macro generated code will typecheck?
2013-08-26T13:37:09  <thestinger> mcstar: no, it receives an AST and outputs an AST
2013-08-26T13:37:21  <thestinger> there's no guarantee templates in C++ will typeck ;p
2013-08-26T13:37:33  <thestinger> you can get a failure after descending through 5000 levels of recursion
2013-08-26T13:37:57  <mcstar> im not comparing it to c++
2013-08-26T13:38:02  <mcstar> im comparing it to metaocaml
2013-08-26T13:59:15  *** rusti <rusti!~rusti@CPEbc1401380f73-CMbc1401380f70.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
2013-08-26T13:59:56  *** Scooper <Scooper!~Scooper@cm-84.208.69.8.getinternet.no> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T14:02:16  *** ermau_ <ermau_!uid472@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qlvwlnbrulwfmsvs> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T14:04:25  *** epicmonkey <epicmonkey!~epicmonke@188.134.41.114> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T14:04:50  *** ermau <ermau!uid472@about/csharp/regular/ermau> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2013-08-26T14:04:57  *** ermau_ is now known as ermau
2013-08-26T14:11:50  *** foRei <foRei!~ViT@0x4dd7b24d.adsl.cybercity.dk> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T14:21:06  *** Apophis <Apophis!~apophis@77-56-6-4.dclient.hispeed.ch> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T15:03:11  *** mcstar <mcstar!~mcstar@adsl-89-132-40-74.monradsl.monornet.hu> has quit IRC (Quit: mcstar)
2013-08-26T15:09:22  *** AlliedEnvy <AlliedEnvy!~AlliedEnv@adsl-68-89-189-100.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2013-08-26T15:10:41  *** AlliedEnvy <AlliedEnvy!~AlliedEnv@adsl-68-89-189-100.dsl.hstntx.swbell.net> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T15:15:45  *** Areks <Areks!~Areks@rs.gridnine.com> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2013-08-26T15:16:08  *** Areks <Areks!~Areks@rs.gridnine.com> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T15:59:42  *** rofer <rofer!~rofer@rofer.me> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2013-08-26T15:59:48  *** coeus <coeus!~coeus@dslb-084-061-103-134.pools.arcor-ip.net> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T16:00:21  *** coeus_ <coeus_!~coeus@dslb-084-061-103-134.pools.arcor-ip.net> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T16:03:47  *** kilae <kilae!~chatzilla@catv-162-034.tbwil.ch> has quit IRC (Quit: ChatZilla 0.9.90.1 [Firefox 23.0.1/20130814063812])
2013-08-26T16:33:54  *** Zannick <Zannick!~mick@aichallenge/admin/zannick> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T16:43:46  *** thestinger1 <thestinger1!~strcat@archlinux/trusteduser/thestinger> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T16:43:54  *** thestinger <thestinger!~strcat@archlinux/trusteduser/thestinger> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2013-08-26T17:39:36  *** amstan <amstan!~alex@aichallenge/admin/amstan> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 245 seconds)
2013-08-26T17:44:08  *** sigh <sigh!~sigh@ppp114-153.static.internode.on.net> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T17:59:28  *** ermau <ermau!uid472@gateway/web/irccloud.com/x-qlvwlnbrulwfmsvs> has quit IRC (Changing host)
2013-08-26T17:59:28  *** ermau <ermau!uid472@about/csharp/regular/ermau> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T18:11:35  *** amstan_ <amstan_!~alex@aichallenge/admin/amstan> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T18:11:35  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o amstan_
2013-08-26T18:23:32  *** sigh <sigh!~sigh@ppp114-153.static.internode.on.net> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
2013-08-26T18:25:17  *** rofer <rofer!~rofer@rofer.me> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T18:26:45  *** rofer <rofer!~rofer@rofer.me> has quit IRC (Client Quit)
2013-08-26T18:33:29  *** sigh <sigh!~sigh@ppp114-153.static.internode.on.net> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T18:45:28  *** sigh <sigh!~sigh@ppp114-153.static.internode.on.net> has quit IRC (Remote host closed the connection)
2013-08-26T19:02:27  *** Apophis <Apophis!~apophis@77-56-6-4.dclient.hispeed.ch> has quit IRC (Quit: Verlassend)
2013-08-26T19:12:06  *** Scooper <Scooper!~Scooper@cm-84.208.69.8.getinternet.no> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
2013-08-26T19:41:30  *** dici <dici!~cabbage@ip2042.saw.rwth-aachen.de> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving.)
2013-08-26T19:52:42  *** NoxiaZ^ <NoxiaZ^!~noxi@87-104-29-39-dynamic-customer.profibernet.dk> has quit IRC ()
2013-08-26T20:44:53  *** cyphase <cyphase!~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T20:54:04  *** foRei <foRei!~ViT@0x4dd7b24d.adsl.cybercity.dk> has quit IRC (Quit: Bye)
2013-08-26T22:41:34  *** SJRvanSchaik <SJRvanSchaik!~SJRvanSch@82.174.230.73> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 246 seconds)
2013-08-26T22:41:44  *** SJRvanSchaik <SJRvanSchaik!~SJRvanSch@ip73-230-174-82.adsl2.static.versatel.nl> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T23:07:18  *** smiley1983 <smiley1983!~smiley@115-64-6-216.static.tpgi.com.au> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T23:12:02  *** cyphase <cyphase!~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase> has quit IRC (Quit: cyphase.com)
2013-08-26T23:17:08  *** cyphase <cyphase!~cyphase@unaffiliated/cyphase> has joined #aichallenge
2013-08-26T23:19:00  *** smiley1983 <smiley1983!~smiley@115-64-6-216.static.tpgi.com.au> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 256 seconds)