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2013-12-17T02:32:32  <deltreey> wow those logs are dull
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2013-12-17T04:12:57  <basdp> Hi!
2013-12-17T04:13:21  <basdp> is there any news about the future of AI challenge?
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2013-12-17T12:44:36  <deltreey> handle funding....clarify?
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2013-12-17T13:56:38  <Zannick> deltreey: money. money money money. money money.
2013-12-17T13:57:03  <deltreey> quantity of money
2013-12-17T13:57:25  <Zannick> $lots
2013-12-17T13:57:35  <deltreey> give the rich guy a number please
2013-12-17T13:57:59  <Zannick> mostly paying for the machines that run all the bots
2013-12-17T13:58:05  <Zannick> i don't have a number
2013-12-17T13:58:34  <deltreey> how many machines? are we talking just hosting costs or does someone have them run out of their basement?
2013-12-17T13:59:12  <Zannick> if someone has a datacenter in their basement...
2013-12-17T13:59:36  <deltreey> I do, but it's really in the living room (built into the entertainment center
2013-12-17T13:59:46  <Zannick> i think we had someone's beefy 16-core machine as the server once, but it was way too slow for the popularity of the contest
2013-12-17T13:59:53  <deltreey> so you're talking hosting, can you specify the type of rigs you need hosted?
2013-12-17T14:00:09  <deltreey> yeah, one machine is definitely not acceptable
2013-12-17T14:00:22  <deltreey> but a beowulf cluster is probably what you guys were running years ago
2013-12-17T14:00:26  <Zannick> janzert might know how many amazon instances we had for planet wars/ants
2013-12-17T14:00:40  <deltreey> oh, you used amazon
2013-12-17T14:00:40  <Zannick> i'
2013-12-17T14:00:55  <Zannick> i'd like to see us get on Google Compute Engine but that's just me >.>
2013-12-17T14:02:17  <deltreey> what kind of memory you need per machine?
2013-12-17T14:02:48  <amstan> it was like 40 xlarge cpu instances from amazon
2013-12-17T14:02:53  <amstan> 16GB
2013-12-17T14:03:16  <deltreey> that's quite a lot
2013-12-17T14:03:27  <amstan> yep
2013-12-17T14:03:35  <deltreey> so a 16 core 14.4 gb google compute engine is 1.04/hr
2013-12-17T14:03:44  <amstan> yep
2013-12-17T14:03:44  <deltreey> is that what you'd be looking for?
2013-12-17T14:04:02  <amstan> i think we spent like 10k last competition
2013-12-17T14:04:13  <amstan> but we also had someone who offered their server farm
2013-12-17T14:04:14  <deltreey> hey a number!
2013-12-17T14:04:19  <amstan> so that doubled our workers
2013-12-17T14:04:43  <amstan> but besides the funding... someone has to actually manage all that money
2013-12-17T14:04:52  <amstan> get non profit status so their bank account doesn't get closed
2013-12-17T14:04:55  <deltreey> 10k is a lot.  Not something I'd be willing to spend right now on something like this (kinda gave my charity money to St Jude's this year) but next year I might swing it
2013-12-17T14:05:17  <amstan> if we had proper setups we could probably accept microdonations and easily get the money
2013-12-17T14:05:33  <Zannick> and discounts!
2013-12-17T14:05:35  <deltreey> I can gift an individual up to 13k just 'cause
2013-12-17T14:05:53  <amstan> Zannick: i was thinking about this... the more you donate the more you cpu time you get for your bot in the normal period
2013-12-17T14:05:54  <Zannick> yeah, 30 $1/hr machines for 30 days is $21k
2013-12-17T14:06:01  <Zannick> amstan: heh
2013-12-17T14:06:02  <deltreey> but yes, you guys have been talking about that non-profit paperwork for a while
2013-12-17T14:06:21  <amstan> deltreey: yes, i don't really have the time
2013-12-17T14:06:29  <Zannick> amstan: i was kind of hoping we could get google-sponsored again and get GCE on the cheap
2013-12-17T14:06:35  <amstan> Zannick: or that
2013-12-17T14:06:41  <Zannick> or advertise GCE as we do it
2013-12-17T14:06:49  <amstan> Zannick: i didn't look into it, how does that work?
2013-12-17T14:06:51  <deltreey> ^ I would see that
2013-12-17T14:06:52  <Zannick> i could ask someone if we do
2013-12-17T14:06:56  <amstan> is it just vms, amazon style?
2013-12-17T14:06:59  <Zannick> if we do launch again
2013-12-17T14:07:18  <Zannick> yeah, pretty much
2013-12-17T14:07:21  <amstan> perfect then
2013-12-17T14:07:38  <amstan> jeff keeps talking about it, but you know him...
2013-12-17T14:07:43  <Zannick> i think we can hook it up to other things like appengine for a frontend
2013-12-17T14:07:45  <deltreey> google's pricing is a little more convoluted than amazon's though
2013-12-17T14:08:00  <amstan> deltreey: if they sponsor us, like they did till now i'm sure it won't be a problem
2013-12-17T14:08:23  <Zannick> i have no idea how to actually do it but if i can figure out who to talk to it might be cheaper
2013-12-17T14:08:43  <amstan> if only jeff wasn't so hard to talk to
2013-12-17T14:09:03  <Zannick> heh. he's also here, i note.
2013-12-17T14:09:05  <deltreey> I take it Jeff is an important person?
2013-12-17T14:09:16  <amstan> deltreey: he founded everything
2013-12-17T14:09:20  <deltreey> important people usually are hard to talk to
2013-12-17T14:09:28  <Zannick> no idea how interested he still is the contests
2013-12-17T14:09:42  <amstan> Zannick: that's what i'm saying... last time i talked to him he was all over
2013-12-17T14:10:16  <deltreey> well, anyway, I didn't mean to spark thoughts of a new contest anytime soon, just trying to wrap my head around the numbers.  I tend to think long term
2013-12-17T14:10:42  <amstan> deltreey: besides that, we need dedicated people that can code on the framework
2013-12-17T14:10:50  <Zannick> I think long term as well; usually that means I want to rewrite everything from scratch. :D
2013-12-17T14:10:56  <deltreey> that'd probably be something I'd do when I retire
2013-12-17T14:10:59  <amstan> Zannick: yes, probably
2013-12-17T14:11:17  <deltreey> help with the managing of the competition that is
2013-12-17T14:11:46  <Zannick> if i were filthy rich and had no day job...
2013-12-17T14:12:00  <deltreey> you know, if you do decide to go with paid entries to the competition (or even a spinoff for plays between competitions or something) you could post a cash prize to keep people interested
2013-12-17T14:12:30  <amstan> the idea i had with donations for more cpu time wouldn't really affect the final competition
2013-12-17T14:12:38  <amstan> people could still have the same chances if they didn't pay
2013-12-17T14:12:53  <deltreey> I gotcha, you mean the pre-lims for testing, you benefit
2013-12-17T14:12:59  <amstan> they just get less cpu time on the competition, but at the end tourny it's still equal
2013-12-17T14:14:00  <amstan> i think we used amazon spot instances
2013-12-17T14:14:00  <deltreey> btw, a sysadmin willing to serve the workers <---that is a big challenge
2013-12-17T14:14:06  <amstan> so it was cheaper
2013-12-17T14:14:09  <Zannick> i'm not sure how to be a nonprofit and "sell" cpu time like that
2013-12-17T14:14:15  <amstan> deltreey: ideally that sysadmin should know the code inside out
2013-12-17T14:14:17  <Zannick> but i'm not a lawyer
2013-12-17T14:14:35  <deltreey> donations can be used uniquely
2013-12-17T14:14:48  <amstan> do everything in bitcoin instead
2013-12-17T14:14:57  <amstan> there's a few server places which accept bitcoins
2013-12-17T14:14:59  <deltreey> I ran a poker club in college where we basically had club dues turn into prizes
2013-12-17T14:15:06  <Zannick> oh man we could accept bitcoin and litecoin and dogecoin...
2013-12-17T14:15:31  <amstan> it wouldn't be so bad
2013-12-17T14:15:36  <deltreey> until your servers get confiscated
2013-12-17T14:15:45  <amstan> deltreey: ?
2013-12-17T14:15:55  <deltreey> it's no secret that governments don't like bitcoin
2013-12-17T14:16:08  <amstan> sure
2013-12-17T14:16:20  <deltreey> governments have this unique ability to steal your stuff
2013-12-17T14:16:33  <amstan> including your bitcoins
2013-12-17T14:16:48  <deltreey> and the servers that are paid for by said bitcoins
2013-12-17T14:17:02  <amstan> get servers in europe
2013-12-17T14:17:11  <deltreey> governments <---plural
2013-12-17T14:17:25  <amstan> we'll ask tbp people what they do
2013-12-17T14:17:29  <amstan> lol
2013-12-17T14:17:33  <Zannick> they run on tor now
2013-12-17T14:17:58  <amstan> it's funny that the biggest problems they have is domain names
2013-12-17T14:18:00  <deltreey> silly how much we have to look for loopholes to host an honest friendly competition
2013-12-17T14:18:03  <amstan> not servers
2013-12-17T14:18:11  <amstan> deltreey: yeah, i'm pretty sure that's not the case
2013-12-17T14:18:18  <Zannick> this is why i want to see if we can get machines for free/cheap
2013-12-17T14:18:39  <deltreey> machines are not the issue
2013-12-17T14:18:42  <deltreey> it's bandwidth
2013-12-17T14:18:53  <amstan> meh, not that much
2013-12-17T14:18:57  <Zannick> no, machines are the issue
2013-12-17T14:19:09  <deltreey> well machines are cheap
2013-12-17T14:19:11  <amstan> last contest was only like 60GB everything
2013-12-17T14:19:12  <Zannick> each game runs on one machine
2013-12-17T14:19:33  <Zannick> bandwidth would just be moving data around
2013-12-17T14:19:34  <deltreey> it's hosting the machines that's the expensive bit (thus my bandwidth commen)
2013-12-17T14:20:27  <deltreey> if you really just need processing power/ram, I might just be bored enough to try to put together a custom build for that
2013-12-17T14:20:45  <amstan> deltreey: 30 of them? potentially more
2013-12-17T14:23:32  <deltreey> that's what I mean, could be fun
2013-12-17T14:23:39  <deltreey> nice big cluster
2013-12-17T14:23:59  <deltreey> I'll think about it
2013-12-17T14:24:33  <deltreey> but if I can get you the machines, we can cut out a large portion of your cost, and we can consider it a gift, so that future competitions can continue to rely on it/expand it
2013-12-17T14:24:49  <deltreey> be much cheaper for me to get the hardware than to donate cash anyway
2013-12-17T14:25:40  <deltreey> just gotta handle the bandwidth
2013-12-17T14:27:31  <deltreey> again, just brainstorming
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2013-12-17T15:07:03  <janzert> fyi, we for ants spent a little less than $3000 on the last contest and had another group of servers donated that would have cost us close to that much if we had paid.
2013-12-17T15:07:19  <janzert> and we were really underpowered for most of the contest
2013-12-17T15:08:21  <janzert> the biggest hold up to getting another contest going though is someone with the interest and time to get a legal entity setup to run it under
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2013-12-17T18:28:29  <deltreey> janzert: I'm good at setting up legal entities, if it's a business I'll get on legalzoom and have something by the end of the week, but I suspect there are some specifics you're concerned about
2013-12-17T19:21:26  <janzert> a few things, it should be a non-profit so it can accept tax deductible donations, it needs someone that will take care of handling the legal/accounting things in an ongoing manner, and possibly hardest the person needs to get with Jeff Cameron and at least get his blessing to run with it.
2013-12-17T19:21:57  <janzert> as a side note, my understanding is that the IRS generally frowns on non-profits with less than 3 board members
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2013-12-17T19:53:43  <deltreey> roger
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2013-12-17T21:17:55  <deltreey> well, seems like we rolled all the way back to square one.  We have to wait for the man in charge.
2013-12-17T21:18:18  <Zannick> im spartacus
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