2014-06-04T00:20:19  *** crxz0193 <crxz0193!~crxz0193@203.247.149.152> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T00:27:11  *** mleise <mleise!~marco@dslb-092-077-086-023.pools.arcor-ip.net> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T01:10:24  <mleise> Hey, a lot of chat log for yesterday :)
2014-06-04T01:21:40  *** coeus <coeus!~coeus@dslb-084-062-114-032.pools.arcor-ip.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-06-04T01:27:35  <mleise> antimatroid1: thanks for asking all the noob questions in my stead
2014-06-04T01:29:15  <antimatroid1> no problem :)
2014-06-04T01:54:05  <mleise> antimatroid1: There was so much insider information like the 20% time, that really confused me.
2014-06-04T01:55:06  <mleise> or what the MMO should look like
2014-06-04T02:02:03  <antimatroid1> do you know what 20% time is now?
2014-06-04T02:02:22  <antimatroid1> basically people working at google are meant to be able to spent 20% of their time working on whatever they want provided it's semi related to google
2014-06-04T02:02:38  <antimatroid1> i'd previously heard that never really happens, but we shall see :)
2014-06-04T02:03:45  <mleise> Yes, I read the 53K log file from yesterday
2014-06-04T02:09:43  <mleise> I probably wont get wholly consumed, like with Ants last time. That was still in the aftermath of PlanetWars and I was thrilled to contribute to the next contest, which was then to become the most sophisticated in all aspects, but also last in a long time.
2014-06-04T02:14:03  <antimatroid1> yeah i don't really have any time
2014-06-04T02:14:09  <antimatroid1> not that i was very helpful anyway
2014-06-04T02:14:22  <mleise> It was great to see the different parts of the contest software come together after many hours of arguing over every little detail. Then again I think many contributed more time than they anticipated and are more hesitant now to continue in a possibly even larger event.
2014-06-04T02:14:53  <mleise> antimatroid1: We can always write starter bots and help set up our pet language :)
2014-06-04T02:14:53  <antimatroid1> it's also very hard to not get sucked in once the ball starts rolling :P
2014-06-04T02:15:09  <antimatroid1> i'm always happy to play with map generators
2014-06-04T02:15:11  <mleise> aww...the gravitational fields
2014-06-04T02:15:34  <mleise> That was totally forgotten in the assembly list yesterday
2014-06-04T02:15:43  <antimatroid1> that's unimportant
2014-06-04T02:16:00  <antimatroid1> i'm in the camp of not even thinking about games until a framework is set up
2014-06-04T02:16:14  <mleise> hmm, I thought seperating game client and replay client was unimportant :)
2014-06-04T02:16:27  <antimatroid1> ?
2014-06-04T02:16:42  <mleise> antimatroid1: why is that? the games ultimately decide what the framework needs to be capable of
2014-06-04T02:17:27  <mleise> antimatroid1: the JavaScript code for the replay client and the web site's game client is eventually mostly the same once it becomes sophisticated enough like for Ants
2014-06-04T02:17:27  <antimatroid1> interesting that xathis turned up to read the meeting
2014-06-04T02:18:03  <antimatroid1> I think it'd be a good idea if the framework didn't depend on the game, so running a new tournament would just consist of setting up a new game
2014-06-04T02:18:11  <antimatroid1> not rewriting the framework each time to deal with it
2014-06-04T02:18:33  <mleise> Was xathis invited?
2014-06-04T02:18:35  <antimatroid1> if we move to games that aren't n player games with finite turns or whatever then the framework will need to be different, but i think we can decide that without actually deciding on a game
2014-06-04T02:19:14  <antimatroid1> not sure who all the people on the invite list are
2014-06-04T02:19:29  <antimatroid1> i know i told at least a couple of people
2014-06-04T02:19:36  <antimatroid1> like sigh
2014-06-04T02:19:43  <mleise> I have a feeling the framework is ultimately what we intrinsically want to improve upon. That's where we can make new interesting stuff happen.
2014-06-04T02:19:48  <antimatroid1> (who was in other meetings when the meeting was on)
2014-06-04T02:20:01  *** mceier <mceier!~mceier@89-69-201-93.dynamic.chello.pl> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2014-06-04T02:20:12  <antimatroid1> i've not really looked at it, but my understanding is the framework is a bit of a mess and hacked together
2014-06-04T02:20:26  <antimatroid1> ie. from tron to pw to ants
2014-06-04T02:20:45  <mleise> :) It's a mix of old code and new code and possibly in the middle of a TODO annotated rewrite ^^
2014-06-04T02:21:17  <antimatroid1> yeah, I think continuing with that code would be less work in the short term but continue to make each new contest a ridiculous amount of work
2014-06-04T02:21:33  <antimatroid1> if the framework was done once without a particular game in mind I think that'd make it much easier to do future contests
2014-06-04T02:22:11  <antimatroid1> but i don't have the knowledge or time to really understand what i'm talking about here or to do it
2014-06-04T02:22:13  <mleise> When I wrote the visualizer I wanted it to be reusable as well by just replacing the Ants.js with some other game, but really... I don't know if that works out once the games don't use ticks any more or have 10x more ticks or complexity
2014-06-04T02:22:17  <antimatroid1> so I'm really just offering my opinion :P
2014-06-04T02:23:00  <mleise> no, you  are right in general. code reuse should be high on the list
2014-06-04T02:23:25  <mleise> but then again people are more motivated to try something new
2014-06-04T02:23:53  <mleise> and not have another contest that works exactly like the previous one
2014-06-04T02:24:31  <mleise> Like when MMO was mentioned I thought that would require a totally different framework
2014-06-04T02:25:06  <mleise> but it is certainly more fun to work on such an idea until the whole contest collapses under the weight of its features and integration bugs :D
2014-06-04T02:25:40  <mleise> antimatroid1: So maybe you are the voice of reason to tell people to stick to realizable goals.
2014-06-04T02:25:40  *** mceier <mceier!~mceier@89-69-201-93.dynamic.chello.pl> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T02:26:38  <mleise> Even Ants got delayed a few times. On my part I remember that having so many different colors posed problems to users with partial color blindness.
2014-06-04T02:27:51  <mleise> There is a point where you think you are done, but that just marks the beginning of the testing phase and the next iteration of modifications.
2014-06-04T02:28:50  <mleise> Oh the memories...
2014-06-04T02:30:05  <mleise> I wrapped the JavaScript in a Java JS interpreter (Rhino) for optimal code reuse and it ended up being _really_ slow.
2014-06-04T02:31:06  <mleise> People wouldn't understand why the Java stand-alone visualizer was slower than the JavaScript web visualizer, until I told them that it runs the JS visualizer internally.
2014-06-04T02:31:12  <antimatroid1> yeah, i do remember the amount of changes you had to make
2014-06-04T02:31:35  <antimatroid1> i think the visualiser is something that largely needs to be rewritten each time
2014-06-04T02:32:30  <mleise> Did I mention I implemented a key framed animation system to allow fluid playback with food morphing from white circles to colored squares?
2014-06-04T02:33:42  <mleise> I also turned down a few change requests when it was half-way into the contest
2014-06-04T02:36:03  <mleise> In the end I was happy with everything about it except the graphics caching layer which didn't improve speed as much as I hoped, but added a lot of code and that Java-wrapping-JavaScript stupidity.
2014-06-04T02:37:53  <mleise> There are now better ways, like compiling a static language like C to JavaScript and thus start with a visualizer that actually runs faster outside the browser.
2014-06-04T03:31:39  *** smiley1983 <smiley1983!~smiley@115-64-6-216.static.tpgi.com.au> has quit IRC (Quit: leaving)
2014-06-04T03:33:56  *** smiley1983 <smiley1983!~smiley@115-64-6-216.static.tpgi.com.au> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T03:53:14  *** foRei <foRei!~ViT@0x4dd7b24d.adsl.cybercity.dk> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T04:03:57  *** foRei <foRei!~ViT@0x4dd7b24d.adsl.cybercity.dk> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2014-06-04T04:48:37  *** smiley1983 <smiley1983!~smiley@115-64-6-216.static.tpgi.com.au> has quit IRC (*.net *.split)
2014-06-04T04:48:52  *** smiley1983 <smiley1983!~smiley@115-64-6-216.static.tpgi.com.au> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T05:17:54  <aerique_> Interesting to read the logs about last nights meeting.
2014-06-04T05:18:00  *** aerique_ is now known as aerique
2014-06-04T05:19:24  <aerique> I hope a general framework doesn't eat too much time.
2014-06-04T05:20:27  <aerique> And I'd suggest starting out with a simple game to be able to work on the framework. Otherwise there's 2 ambitious projects (framework & mmo challenge) to work on.
2014-06-04T05:21:43  *** mleise <mleise!~marco@dslb-092-077-086-023.pools.arcor-ip.net> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2014-06-04T05:22:24  <aerique> Glad to see that basic communication is still important so it doesn't matter which language is used.  https://helloworldopen.com/ use sockets which are maybe a little harder than stdin/stdout but which might make issues with stdin/stdout disappear.
2014-06-04T05:24:39  <ramn> I'd be happy helping out with a general framework
2014-06-04T05:24:49  <ramn> would be great to have a reusable framework
2014-06-04T05:25:49  <aerique> It would be, definitely. There's just such a big chance for time to be swallowed by a project like that. Someone really needs to keep tabs on things.
2014-06-04T05:26:51  <aerique> I still like multiplayer asteroids as a basic game to get things going again: http://forums.aichallenge.org/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=2122 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OqfH5J18C30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VeWz24_VHk
2014-06-04T05:28:52  <ramn> indeed one has to be careful about the scope.
2014-06-04T05:29:12  <ramn> on the other hand, might be easier to get more ppl involved in coding
2014-06-04T05:37:13  *** mleise <mleise!~Marco@dslb-092-077-086-023.pools.arcor-ip.net> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T06:16:10  *** mcstar <mcstar!~mcstar@adsl-89-132-39-134.monradsl.monornet.hu> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T06:16:56  <mcstar> look at that, mleise is back
2014-06-04T06:18:27  <mleise> Hey mcstar! Yes, I received an email about some new AI challenge.
2014-06-04T06:19:03  <mcstar> it is not a nice thing to keep us wondering, if you were ok...
2014-06-04T06:20:07  <mcstar> someone should fix channel logging, so that i could see, whats happening here
2014-06-04T06:33:14  *** Guest38683 <Guest38683!~Areks@rs.gridnine.com> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2014-06-04T07:57:25  *** crxz0193 <crxz0193!~crxz0193@203.247.149.152> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 255 seconds)
2014-06-04T08:08:43  *** crxz0193 <crxz0193!~crxz0193@203.247.149.152> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T08:09:18  *** Areks <Areks!~Areks@rs.gridnine.com> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T08:21:35  *** foRei <foRei!~ViT@0x4dd7b24d.adsl.cybercity.dk> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T08:23:01  *** crxz0193 <crxz0193!~crxz0193@203.247.149.152> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2014-06-04T09:45:06  *** aarossig <aarossig!~aarossig@aichallenge/admin/aarossig> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T10:40:06  *** mleise <mleise!~Marco@dslb-092-077-086-023.pools.arcor-ip.net> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2014-06-04T12:06:38  *** McLeopold <McLeopold!43aa5f60@gateway/web/freenode/ip.67.170.95.96> has quit IRC (Quit: Page closed)
2014-06-04T13:29:47  *** amstan <amstan!~alex@aichallenge/admin/amstan> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T13:29:47  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o amstan
2014-06-04T14:17:33  <mcstar> hey amstan, is channel logging working? if not, pls fix it asap :)
2014-06-04T14:17:41  <amstan> mcstar: it should be
2014-06-04T14:17:46  <amstan> mcstar: i'm actually reading it right now
2014-06-04T14:17:47  <mcstar> ok, then whats the url?
2014-06-04T14:17:50  <amstan> why do you say that?
2014-06-04T14:17:53  <amstan> it's in the topic
2014-06-04T14:17:59  <amstan> like: http://contestbot.aichallenge.org/channellogs/%23aichallenge/%23aichallenge.2014-06-04.log
2014-06-04T14:18:36  <amstan> mcstar: are you having any issues accessing them?
2014-06-04T14:18:42  <mcstar> amstan: i was using the contestbot.hypertriangle one...
2014-06-04T14:18:56  <mcstar> this one's ok, ty
2014-06-04T14:31:13  *** amstan <amstan!~alex@aichallenge/admin/amstan> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2014-06-04T14:32:05  *** amstan <amstan!~alex@aichallenge/admin/amstan> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T14:32:05  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o amstan
2014-06-04T14:36:25  <a1k0n> i didn't realize you logged all that
2014-06-04T14:44:23  <mcstar> 'we have on record everything you ever said, and not afraid to implicate you, hahaha'
2014-06-04T14:45:20  <mcstar> great, you havent been updating your blog, i didnt miss anything :)
2014-06-04T14:45:59  <a1k0n> haha, yeah :(
2014-06-04T14:46:28  <a1k0n> it's been just under 3 years since i wrote anything. i should change that.
2014-06-04T14:46:44  <a1k0n> it's kind of hard to out-do my last one
2014-06-04T14:48:39  <mcstar> just make sure to win the upcoming contest, a new post-mortem would do it
2014-06-04T14:50:16  <a1k0n> ok, add a 2kb source code restriction to the next contest
2014-06-04T14:51:29  <mcstar> yeah, i guess the stricter the restrictions, the better your chances are... im not competing like that, ty
2014-06-04T15:09:46  *** coeus <coeus!~coeus@dslb-084-062-114-032.pools.arcor-ip.net> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T15:31:21  <Zannick> bots must be 8 bytes compiled
2014-06-04T15:46:41  *** Scooper <Scooper!~Scooper@cm-84.208.65.122.getinternet.no> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T16:12:49  *** Accoun <Accoun!~1@119.42.64.126> has quit IRC (Read error: Connection reset by peer)
2014-06-04T16:20:17  *** Accoun <Accoun!~1@119.42.64.126> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T16:53:27  <amstan> a1k0n: i was thinking of that..  make bots run on some kind of microcontroller
2014-06-04T16:53:58  <Zannick> make the bots control physical bots and videotape the finals
2014-06-04T16:55:41  *** amstan_ <amstan_!~alex@aichallenge/admin/amstan> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T16:55:41  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o amstan_
2014-06-04T16:55:42  *** amstan <amstan!~alex@aichallenge/admin/amstan> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2014-06-04T16:55:52  *** amstan_ is now known as amstan
2014-06-04T16:58:45  <amstan> Zannick: heh, we can use php on appengine
2014-06-04T16:58:51  <Zannick> nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
2014-06-04T16:58:51  <amstan> not that we would want to
2014-06-04T16:58:55  <amstan> lol
2014-06-04T17:00:07  <amstan> Zannick: is there any support for python3?
2014-06-04T17:00:51  <Zannick> maybe?
2014-06-04T17:02:18  <amstan> seems like no: webapp2 is compatible with Python 2.5 and superior. No Python 3 yet.
2014-06-04T17:03:27  <amstan> hmm, seems that it can do django though
2014-06-04T17:15:40  *** MuTaLiSk <MuTaLiSk!~ViT@0x4dd7b24d.adsl.cybercity.dk> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T17:18:19  *** foRei <foRei!~ViT@0x4dd7b24d.adsl.cybercity.dk> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2014-06-04T17:19:27  <aarossig> amstan: The idea of hosting the web app on Google compute is off the table?
2014-06-04T17:26:11  <Zannick> i'm not sure that will be better
2014-06-04T17:34:45  <aarossig> amstan and I were talking over lunch today about how it might be cool if the AppEngine wasn't a dependency. If someone else wanted to run a contest they could use their own infrastructure.
2014-06-04T17:35:36  <aarossig> and then we could use Python 3 (or node :)) if we wanted to
2014-06-04T17:37:00  <amstan> aarossig: it looks like appengine can use anything as long as it's pure python 2.7
2014-06-04T17:37:05  <amstan> so most web libraries will work
2014-06-04T17:37:19  <aarossig> amstan: ah, interesting. That's better than the way you described it
2014-06-04T17:37:59  <amstan> from what i understand it there's also this open source webapp2 library which is a reimplementation of the original google webapp
2014-06-04T17:38:14  <amstan> and you can run webapp2 locally just fine
2014-06-04T17:38:22  <aarossig> okay, cool
2014-06-04T17:38:32  <aarossig> that clears things up nicely
2014-06-04T17:41:25  <Zannick> i was just thinking of appengine as a nice cover on top of the system. we can use appengine's db to map google users to team/bot names, etc.
2014-06-04T17:41:44  <Zannick> i'm not an expert on this imaginary setup, of course :)
2014-06-04T17:42:12  <aarossig> That's a cool idea. I am also not an expert (but excited to learn). You most likely know more than I do
2014-06-04T17:42:12  <Zannick> i do think the pricing model will disfavor running the FE on GCE but i could be wrong
2014-06-04T17:43:20  <Zannick> i've done a lot of 20% work on an internal appengine app so i feel somewhat comfortable with that. that's really my only reason for suggesting it
2014-06-04T17:43:50  <amstan> Zannick: so what python library did you use? webapp?
2014-06-04T17:43:52  <Zannick> to let someone else run their own contest, well sure. they'll still need a user account system regardless of how we set up the workers
2014-06-04T17:44:11  <Zannick> amstan: yeah, this uses webapp
2014-06-04T17:49:48  <amstan> neat: https://developers.google.com/appengine/features/#trafficsplitting
2014-06-04T18:09:41  <amstan> Zannick: seems like the front end will not easily be able to access the bot files: https://developers.google.com/appengine/docs/python/#Python_Quotas_and_limits
2014-06-04T18:10:14  <Zannick> i'm sorry?
2014-06-04T18:11:21  *** amstan <amstan!~alex@aichallenge/admin/amstan> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2014-06-04T18:11:22  *** aarossig <aarossig!~aarossig@aichallenge/admin/aarossig> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 265 seconds)
2014-06-04T18:11:36  *** amstan <amstan!~alex@aichallenge/admin/amstan> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T18:11:36  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o amstan
2014-06-04T18:11:40  <amstan> Zannick: well.. we're going to have a ton of files, last contest we almost went over the 32k files in the folder limit
2014-06-04T18:11:52  <Zannick> my envisioning is that all the front end does is upload the bots into Cloud Storage
2014-06-04T18:12:12  <Zannick> and then the backends on Compute Engine pull from those
2014-06-04T18:13:49  <amstan> hmm
2014-06-04T18:14:08  *** aarossig <aarossig!~aarossig@aichallenge/admin/aarossig> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T18:14:25  <amstan> aarossig: you having irc problems too?
2014-06-04T18:15:02  <aarossig> amstan: I don't think so.. what is the problem?
2014-06-04T18:18:45  *** contestbot <contestbot!~supybot@aichallenge/bot/contestbot> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T18:18:45  *** ChanServ sets mode: +o contestbot
2014-06-04T18:19:20  <amstan> Zannick: it all seems fairly capable, but if we use it we'll become stuck into the ecosystem
2014-06-04T18:19:50  <amstan> stuff like the cloud storage, google users and so on
2014-06-04T18:20:30  <Zannick> appengine appears to support openid
2014-06-04T18:20:45  <Zannick> but we're going to be stuck in an ecosystem regardless.
2014-06-04T18:21:06  <amstan> well.. if you use compute and django front-end only it should be minimal
2014-06-04T18:21:19  <Zannick> last time it was ec2 and i had trouble figuring out how to test the code
2014-06-04T18:22:11  <Zannick> i think this is worth asking people when we start
2014-06-04T18:22:13  *** mcstar <mcstar!~mcstar@adsl-89-132-39-134.monradsl.monornet.hu> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 260 seconds)
2014-06-04T18:23:17  <Zannick> i think if we set things up right we can avoid the network costs on storage
2014-06-04T18:23:51  <Zannick> oh, and compute resources are in $/hour rather than $/request like appengine
2014-06-04T18:26:22  <Zannick> (and i'm more than happy to be stuck in the google ecosystem anyway :P)
2014-06-04T18:26:42  <amstan> Zannick: yeah, that might be a bonus in some regards heh
2014-06-04T18:52:11  *** aarossig <aarossig!~aarossig@aichallenge/admin/aarossig> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 240 seconds)
2014-06-04T19:10:02  <cameronj> Appengine comes with a local dev webserver. If we went with appengine we would still have the property that it's possible to check out the code, build and run on a local workstation.
2014-06-04T19:10:48  <cameronj> Though it lacks the property of being open source, and it's a lock-in to some degree.
2014-06-04T19:11:07  *** aarossig <aarossig!~aarossig@aichallenge/admin/aarossig> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T19:13:37  <cameronj> On the plus side, I do find the appengine model quite pretty. It takes a lot of things that could be problems completely off the table, so we don't have to worry about them. For example, scaling to levels of traffic that require multiple webservers with load balancing, scaling the datastore to more than one physical server, user and login system (finally we would have account recovery!), and so much more.
2014-06-04T19:15:23  <cameronj> I personally fear building that infrastructure, so having a platform that makes those problems go away feels good to me. Maybe if someone is a scaling/infrastructure guru they may see things differently.
2014-06-04T19:17:28  <cameronj> The backend infrastructure that is running the tournament is another story of course. I think that has to be custom, and we have to write code that runs at the level of individual servers.
2014-06-04T19:17:48  <cameronj> So, EC2 or Google Compute or similar
2014-06-04T19:41:08  *** Scooper <Scooper!~Scooper@cm-84.208.65.122.getinternet.no> has quit IRC (Quit: Leaving)
2014-06-04T21:45:56  *** ramn <ramn!~ramnbip]@50.57.170.59> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 276 seconds)
2014-06-04T21:49:28  *** ramn <ramn!~ramnbip]@50.57.170.59> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T21:57:52  *** MuTaLiSk <MuTaLiSk!~ViT@0x4dd7b24d.adsl.cybercity.dk> has quit IRC (Quit: Bye)
2014-06-04T22:18:23  *** mcstar <mcstar!~mcstar@adsl-89-132-39-134.monradsl.monornet.hu> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T22:23:43  *** mcstar <mcstar!~mcstar@adsl-89-132-39-134.monradsl.monornet.hu> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 264 seconds)
2014-06-04T23:32:28  *** amstan <amstan!~alex@aichallenge/admin/amstan> has quit IRC (Quit: Konversation terminated!)
2014-06-04T23:36:47  *** mcstar <mcstar!~mcstar@adsl-89-132-39-134.monradsl.monornet.hu> has joined #aichallenge
2014-06-04T23:39:41  *** smiley1983 <smiley1983!~smiley@115-64-6-216.static.tpgi.com.au> has quit IRC (Ping timeout: 252 seconds)
2014-06-04T23:58:17  *** flag <flag!~flag@69-165-173-172.dsl.teksavvy.com> has joined #aichallenge